Aura of _____ _____ & Medical Nanites - self only in hybrid role

aesica

Pretty simple suggestion really: Remove the group portion of each when the user is in the hybrid role, making the bonuses self-only like other passives. Then, if appropriate, buff the effects applied to the user to bring them in line with other, similar passives. Obviously, they'll still be inferior to offensive and defensive passives since they're limited to either hybrid or support, but this way, using them as a hybrid becomes a better option than it is now--especially in large group settings, where nobody wants somebody's hybrid aura effects anyway. (If I understand the mechanics right, a weak aura can potentially block a better one)

In addition, the following buffs might be in order for the hybrid version of each:

Aura of Arcane Clarity: Boost to damage and healing strength
Aura of Ebon Destruction: Boost to damage of effect
Aura of Primal Majesty: Boost to stat bonuses
Aura of Radiant Protection: Not sure this needs anything, actually
Medical Nanites: Boost to healing per tick​​

raighn

From what I understand, the game prioritizes auras on a player by superstats rather than the actual bonus provided. So it is entirely possible (especially with AoPM) to get the weaker aura when there is a support and a hybrid version available. If the hybrid has higher stats their aura will take priority even though its bonus is significantly weaker than the supports. Similarly, due to the Pres scaling of the ally components an aura from a player with higher total superstats but lower Pres than another will result in the weaker aura being prioritized.

pantagruel01

raighn said:

From what I understand, the game prioritizes auras on a player by superstats rather than the actual bonus provided.

My impression is that it's a 'whoever got there first' effect. In any case, yes, hybrid auras are a menace.

rtma

From what I gather, what's the point in using a SUPPORT PASSIVE if you don't intend to SUPPORT!? . . . exactly, use either Defensive or Offensive Passive and be done with it.

morigosa

While this sort of change would make a lot of sense from the endgame point of view, it's much less sensible for people leveling via alerts where even the small bonuses from a hybrid's aura can make a large difference - especially in terms of AoPM boosting end/rec for characters that don't yet have their energy management sorted out.

Ideally, auras would be changed so that the strongest one applies first and there's no target cap; to reduce server strain from too many targets, cut out the line of sight checks (and possibly also the range checks, though those should be computationally cheap); to fix the problems that causes in TA introduce an effect that insta-kills anyone who gets locked out of one of the TA boss fights.

rtma

@morigosa Not to mention those that use Pets.

raighn

rtma wrote: »

From what I gather, what's the point in using a SUPPORT PASSIVE if you don't intend to SUPPORT!? . . . exactly, use either Defensive or Offensive Passive and be done with it.

Many pet builds running AoED are ran in Hybrid role.
A Hybrid DPS who wants to have a fairly decent Offense and Defense or will pick AoPM.
A Hybrid DPS who uses multiple non-physical damage types and wants all their attacks to get the same damage bonus will benefit most from AoED or AoPM.
A Hybrid "Support/Tank" who actually wants to hold aggro would run in Hybrid Role for Protector's Bulwark spec and use AoRP.
The Grimoire AT uses AoPM and is LOCKED to Hybrid Role.

So... there may be no reason to use one of these passives outside of support role to you, but luckily for everyone else, you're views arn't a defining factor.​​

pantagruel01

I actually think the support passives should just behave the same regardless of role. You could still get hybrids who don't invest in presence, of course.

raighn

pantagruel01 wrote: »

I actually think the support passives should just behave the same regardless of role. You could still get hybrids who don't invest in presence, of course.

Personally I like this... but the option I'd REALLY like to see is the following:

Default Effect: Ally component is the same regardless of Role and scales with PRE
Aura Priority: Highest actual bonus is prioritized
3-pt Advantage: Personal Aura - Removes the Ally component of the passive in exchange for a stronger personal bonus. (AoED would give the same damage bonus as an offensive passive, AoRP would be equiviant to a defensive passive, etc...)
3-pt Advantage: Selfless Aura - Greatly reduces the personal bonus but greatly increases the Ally component.​​

aesica

morigosa wrote: »

While this sort of change would make a lot of sense from the endgame point of view, it's much less sensible for people leveling via alerts where even the small bonuses from a hybrid's aura can make a large difference - especially in terms of AoPM boosting end/rec for characters that don't yet have their energy management sorted out.

Ideally, auras would be changed so that the strongest one applies first and there's no target cap; to reduce server strain from too many targets, cut out the line of sight checks (and possibly also the range checks, though those should be computationally cheap); to fix the problems that causes in TA introduce an effect that insta-kills anyone who gets locked out of one of the TA boss fights.

Do auras really do LoS checks? Eww.

Range checks use square roots and powers, which are among the slower end of the mathematical computation speed spectrum, but overall, they should be fairly inexpensive by themselves. On the other hand, LoS checks can be quite a bit more complex/expensive and, unless there's some really good reason for having them, they should be avoided. Since auras are doing both range and apparently LoS checks AND they affect a large number of targets AND they pulse these checks N times per T second(s), it seems reasonable to cut LoS checks entirely. Such checks add little to the gameplay value and removing them would lighten the aura load significantly, perhaps in a way that allows them to once again affect a larger number of targets.

TL;DR: LoS checks on auras are probably too expensive and should probably get cut.

rtma wrote: »

From what I gather, what's the point in using a SUPPORT PASSIVE if you don't intend to SUPPORT!? . . . exactly, use either Defensive or Offensive Passive and be done with it.

What's the point of using a defensive passive if you don't intend on tanking? Maybe they like the unique bonuses that a particular support passive offers. Whatever the reason, there will always be people who take support passives for their hybrid characters. This kind of change would make it far less cringy for everyone else in a group.​​

roughbearmattach

I really using Hybrid role AoPM with Int primary while leveling toons. Just makes everything simple and easy until retconning at level 40.

This suggestion would be great--heck, I would approve if simply the aura part were removed and no other changes made.

rtma

@raighn I just don't find using a Support Passive in Hybrid Role without Pre to be that practical in a Teaming environment, That last sentence feels almost personal, like a ad hominem (I don't expect people to change to help others, it's not like we're encouraged anyways considering the content for years before Cosmic Revamp, we have choices) Maybe because I like to think about my team? that I want to be a wanted and valued teammate, not just be trivialized tag along. . . anyways,

The main reason I assume people going hybrid for support passives is because of numbers, they want to boost themselves more then others (As selfish as that can seem), they might like to take on a more well rounded approach (Like the Grimoire AT) that's fine to but you're only using a portion of the potential the Passive offers which can boost teammates and pets, which to some don't seem worth pursuing.

@aesica For whatever reason, functionality, practicality, dueling, RP, Hybrid Defensive builds can take on a more well rounded approach, for Damage/Defense, I know from my own experience I take a Defensive passive to show Durable aspects of a character I'm representing to define their traits/attributes, when it comes to applying that into the mechanics of the game, going Tank role doesn't help much with the role bonuses and when other's do it better, like the Super Tanks, which encourages to diverge towards the predominate damage mechanic, while Hybrid DPS seems counter productive if you're pushing for Damage compared to Ranged/Melee, what do you expect to do, Tank?

As for the bonuses only applying to yourself, you might as well make a subset category called Utility Passives then.

sterga

I remember when they butchered sorcery auras to function like they do now and it still makes me sad that they did something so pointless and stupid. Sorcery auras shouldn't have different values for hybrid and support role. The team part scales with PRE and some people want to be able to support in hybrid role. Someone who is only using the aura for themselves isn't likely to be stacking pre any damn way.

I believe the sorcery auras were changed to stop people from using AoPM all the time in hybrid for their dps builds, but the changes didn't actually do anything to discourage people from doing so. All they really did was crap all over support toons that used hybrid role.

The LoS thing is stupid. People said it was stupid back in the days of PTS and it's still stupid now. You have a magical aura that is so powerful it can affect people 50ft away from you, but is thwarted by a mailbox... Really now? I bet if a player is in the way, the auras don't crap out due to LoS even though they probably should if they're going to do something so pointless.

Just having a healer at all trivializes so much content. Like all of the event bosses that have been buffed or introduced. If you can live through one or two unblocked hits and have a decent healer, it's cake mode for the tank... And thanks to pushing trinity, no one else is really in danger of dying for the most part. Nit-picking over aura's being too good hardly matters.

I used to use med nanites on my main in hybrid mode. I could still tank stuff like the giant chicken skellies as long as I was careful. It's basically Regen's little sister that likes to help people. Most content doesn't need a dedicated healer and my toon is hilariously powerful enough that she doesn't really need to do more damage or have more defense.​​

morigosa

aesica said:

Range checks use square roots and powers, which are among the slower end of the mathematical computation speed spectrum, but overall, they should be fairly inexpensive by themselves.

Range checks are actually quite cheap, requiring only multiplication. Sure, the actual distance to a target is sqrt(x*x + y*y + z*z)... but you don't need the actual distance, you just need to know if it's less than some constant R. And for that, (x*x + y*y + z*z) < R*R works just fine. If you really need to optimize, you can even pre-compute the R*R component.

sterga said:

The LoS thing is stupid. People said it was stupid back in the days of PTS and it's still stupid now.

If auras still applied visual effects to people, and those effects went away when they were out of LoS, I think it actually wouldn't be that bad. But as it is, the end result is that it just feels random whether or not someone is affected by your auras. There are better ways to fix the "problem" of someone standing outside a locked-out boss room to buff those inside.

(Honestly, I'm not even convinced it's a real problem - sure, a person outside the boss room is safe, but they also aren't contributing anywhere near as much value as they could if they were actually in the fight. But whatever; the devs clearly disagree; thus my suggestion of simply auto-killing people that get locked out of a TA boss room.)

aesica

rtma wrote: »

@aesica For whatever reason, functionality, practicality, dueling, RP, Hybrid Defensive builds can take on a more well rounded approach, for Damage/Defense, I know from my own experience I take a Defensive passive to show Durable aspects of a character I'm representing to define their traits/attributes, when it comes to applying that into the mechanics of the game, going Tank role doesn't help much with the role bonuses and when other's do it better, like the Super Tanks, which encourages to diverge towards the predominate damage mechanic, while Hybrid DPS seems counter productive if you're pushing for Damage compared to Ranged/Melee, what do you expect to do, Tank?

It was more of a rhetorical question. The thing is, support passives on characters not intended to be support/healers is just as valid a choice as using defensive passives on a character that isn't intended to tank. Sure, it's not optimal, but not everyone is trying to be optimal. AoPM is highly popular due to the fact that it makes the leveling process less crappy and having more stats overall just makes the gameplay better, AoRP is comparable to defiance, just as Medical Nanites is comparable to Regeneration. I don't use the other two much, but I imagine they have their appeals too.

The point of this suggestion isn't to "make hybrid damage/tanking/etc great again" but rather, to 1) eliminate the problem large groups have with garbage auras blocking good ones, and 2) give support characters better options during the time when they're alone and thus, not supporting anyone else.​​

aesica

Oops, missed this post:

morigosa wrote: »

Range checks are actually quite cheap, requiring only multiplication. Sure, the actual distance to a target is sqrt(x*x + y*y + z*z)... but you don't need the actual distance, you just need to know if it's less than some constant R. And for that, (x*x + y*y + z*z) < R*R works just fine. If you really need to optimize, you can even pre-compute the R*R component.

CO's engine has shown its optimization practices to be lacking in many areas thus far. I don't feel safe in assuming their formulas use any kind of optimization.​​

pantagruel01

aesica said:

It was more of a rhetorical question. The thing is, support passives on characters not intended to be support/healers is just as valid a choice as using defensive passives on a character that isn't intended to tank.

Which is to say, marginal in team content. The real problem with hybrid auras is that CO added logic to put diminishing returns on aura stacking to avoid degenerate situations with an entire team having +500 all stats, and their DR formula somehow wound up with a result where sometimes A+B < A when B is small (e.g. a hybrid aura). A better fix would be to change the DR formula.

riverocean

pantagruel01 said:

Which is to say, marginal in team content. The real problem with hybrid auras is that CO added logic to put diminishing returns on aura stacking to avoid degenerate situations with an entire team having +500 all stats, and their DR formula somehow wound up with a result where sometimes A+B < A when B is small (e.g. a hybrid aura). A better fix would be to change the DR formula.

I don't understand why the formula can't be updated to simply apply the strongest aura value, as you suggested. I'd prefer not to change the entire function as the OP suggests, because that limits build choices.

aesica

riverocean wrote: »

I don't understand why the formula can't be updated to simply apply the strongest aura value, as you suggested. I'd prefer not to change the entire function as the OP suggests, because that limits build choices.

"Simply." In programming terms, this approach adds an extra layer of complexity since it requires sorting. It would be far better for the DR to lessen the total bonus value applied by all stacked auras based on how high the bonus was. You know, similar to how a lot of the superstat bonuses work.

Whatever approach they take, I don't really care as long as it allows Hybrid characters using support auras to actually benefit other people rather than hindering them.​​

pantagruel01

aesica said:

"Simply." In programming terms, this approach adds an extra layer of complexity since it requires sorting.​​

No it doesn't. You can determine the max of a set with a single pass without sorting.

aesica

pantagruel01 wrote: »

"Simply." In programming terms, this approach adds an extra layer of complexity since it requires sorting.
No it doesn't. You can determine the max of a set with a single pass without sorting.

But then, you only have the highest value in a given set. After that, you'll need additional passes until you've effectively sorted the items from strongest to weakest.​​

pantagruel01

aesica said:

But then, you only have the highest value in a given set. After that, you'll need additional passes until you've effectively sorted the items from strongest to weakest.​​

Only if your goal is to make auras stack. If all you want is the strongest aura, which is what was proposed, it's one pass.

morigosa

Also one pass would be "take the strongest aura, add 1/10th the effect of all others". Loop through once, track the maximum and the total. End with max + (total - max)/10.

...But I suspect that the underlying code doesn't store all applied auras in a nice convenient list somewhere, otherwise this would've been simple to solve and we'd never have the current state of affairs in the first place. Instead I suspect we have a setup where all that's stored is a spell ID and a strength value, and the game has to calculate from that what to do each time any aura ticks its application. (Or something similarly inadequate to the needs of making multiple auras stack in a clean and sensible fashion.)