Merge the DPS roles

vonqball

Merge the DPS roles. Also, merge the DPS roles. Then finish up by spinning a plate on a stick, balanced on your nose, while merging the DPS roles.

pantagruel01

Note that the DPS roles used to be merged, and were split because of a desire to have people build somewhat focused builds instead of do-anything builds. However, the fact that forms generally buff only one of the two means people would choose one or the other anyway.

soulforger

I agree, the dps roles should be merged.

spinnytop

I think this would be neat.

rtma

Yeah, it's called Hybrid Role.

spinnytop

^ good point!

raighn

rtma said:

Yeah, it's called Hybrid Role.

Yeah... no it's not... hybrid role is the general all purpose role, it is NOT the same as a DPS role. Do you get the same damage bonus values as DPS role? No, you don't. Do you get the same threat modifier? No, you don't. Do you get the same penalties? No, you get none in hybrid.

aiqa

The split of damage roles was to give melee dps some additional buffs. Which were all removed when specs were added.

rtma

@raighn You can use a Offensive Passive in Hybrid role without the Penalties of utilizing Range and Melee at the same time.

vonqball

No, I don't want to be penalized for using a ranged and melee mix as a DPS. Going Hybrid would be choosing to give myslef a larger DPS penalty. Not a great answer! Basically, I don't want have to choose to tie one of my hands behind my back.. and your suggestion is "tie both hands".

sterga

I was disappointed when this didn't happen with that update a long time ago when everyone asked if ranged dps and melee dps could finally be merged into simply dps. Seems silly to distinguish the two damage roles when they are 90% identical. We don't have ranged and melee tank roles. There aren't ranged and melee supports.

mithrosnomore

While I agree in principle, I wonder how much it would really help.

What passive/toggles would a "mystical swordsman" that uses sorcery and single blades take that would help DPS on both of those?

It just seems to me that most of those push a character towards one framework. Even the ones that help in multiple areas seem to help one thing a good bit more than others.

I am not a min/maxxer, though, nor do I spend a lot of time in the powerhouse trying out a hundred different builds.
Maybe I am missing something, but it just seems that this sort of thing would really help very few builds in practice.

soulforger

mithrosnomore said:

While I agree in principle, I wonder how much it would really help.

What passive/toggles would a "mystical swordsman" that uses sorcery and single blades take that would help DPS on both of those?

It just seems to me that most of those push a character towards one framework. Even the ones that help in multiple areas seem to help one thing a good bit more than others.

I am not a min/maxxer, though, nor do I spend a lot of time in the powerhouse trying out a hundred different builds.
Maybe I am missing something, but it just seems that this sort of thing would really help very few builds in practice.

They can always make new passives for new ideas.

mithrosnomore

soulforger said:

They can always make new passives for new ideas.

But since they seem to be moving away from that sort of thing intentionally, why would they?

soulforger

mithrosnomore said:

soulforger said:

They can always make new passives for new ideas.

But since they seem to be moving away from that sort of thing intentionally, why would they?

Never to late to reverse actions. Plus, there are actually EUs and passives that work well cross-class, so to speak.

raighn

soulforger said:

mithrosnomore said:

soulforger said:

They can always make new passives for new ideas.

But since they seem to be moving away from that sort of thing intentionally, why would they?

Never to late to reverse actions. Plus, there are actually EUs and passives that work well cross-class, so to speak.

Night Warrior boosts both melee and ranged equally and doesnt care about your damage type. Shadow Form both will boost both melee and ranged teleknisis powers equally along with Sorcery, Celestial, and Darkness. Electric Form will boost Laser Swords to the same degree that it boosts Electicity, Power Armor, and Sonic damage. Earth Form boosts both melee and range crushing damage equally.

MSA is often seen as a general all purpose EU. Supernatural Power triggers off ranged and melee supernatual abilities. Mephitic, Wild thing, Ego Reverb, Thermal Reverb, and Spirit Reverb all have both melee and ranged powers that trigger them. Many ranged only EUs can be reliably triggered with 1 in set power and continue to give energy while using melee powers. (Example: Ionic Reveb while using Spark Storm w/adv. Or Conjuration with just about any Sorcery Power.)


The are many passives and EUs that provide equal benefit to both Melee and Ranged. The only things we are missing is equal distribution from stats and an actual combined DPS role.

soulforger

raighn said:

Night Warrior boosts both melee and ranged equally and doesnt care about your damage type. Shadow Form both will boost both melee and ranged teleknisis powers equally along with Sorcery, Celestial, and Darkness. Electric Form will boost Laser Swords to the same degree that it boosts Electicity, Power Armor, and Sonic damage. Earth Form boosts both melee and range crushing damage equally.

MSA is often seen as a general all purpose EU. Supernatural Power triggers off ranged and melee supernatual abilities. Mephitic, Wild thing, Ego Reverb, Thermal Reverb, and Spirit Reverb all have both melee and ranged powers that trigger them. Many ranged only EUs can be reliably triggered with 1 in set power and continue to give energy while using melee powers. (Example: Ionic Reveb while using Spark Storm w/adv. Or Conjuration with just about any Sorcery Power.)


The are many passives and EUs that provide equal benefit to both Melee and Ranged. The only things we are missing is equal distribution from stats and an actual combined DPS role.

Exactly.

vonqball

Well... toggles are also a bit of a stumbling block. We only have "aspect of the machine" and it has some pretty severe drawbacks. But, merging roles would be a step towards making melee/ranged dps builds feel a bit less punished.

raighn

vonqball said:

Well... toggles are also a bit of a stumbling block. We only have "aspect of the machine" and it has some pretty severe drawbacks. But, merging roles would be a step towards making melee/ranged dps builds feel a bit less punished.

Aspect of the Machine is not the only one that affects both melee and ranged equally.

Manipulator and Compassion both boost all damage. Mental Discipline boosts all ego damage. IDF boosts no damage...

aesica

raighn wrote: »

Aspect of the Machine is not the only one that affects both melee and ranged equally.

Manipulator and Compassion both boost all damage. Mental Discipline boosts all ego damage. IDF boosts no damage...

Compassion may boost ranged and melee equally, but both of them receive what's equal to the "low" bonus of the more focused forms. (The "melee" portion of concentration, for example) I haven't played much with manipulator, but I suspect it's the same story.​​

maatmons

I'd be happy if even just the Telekinesis and Earth frameworks allowed for a good melee/ranged mix.

aesica

Hell, I'd just be happy if Telekinesis felt like, well, telekinesis. Wielding pink swords and impaling foes with pink sticks isn't really the first thing that comes to mind when I think of telekinetic powers. Force is way more in line with the theme of moving objects with your mind, I'd say.

And here I am, going way off topic. ​​

raighn

aesica said:

Hell, I'd just be happy if Telekinesis felt like, well, telekinesis. Wielding pink swords and impaling foes with pink sticks isn't really the first thing that comes to mind when I think of telekinetic powers. Force is way more in line with the theme of moving objects with your mind, I'd say.



And here I am, going way off topic. ​​

Which is exactly why my Telekinetic uses a combination of Earth & Force powers rather than the sham that is called Telekinesis... That power set is NOT telekinesis, it is Psychic Constructs... Telekinetics DO NOT create objects out of mental energy, they MOVE objects with mental energy...

spinnytop

aesica said:

Hell, I'd just be happy if Telekinesis felt like, well, telekinesis. Wielding pink swords and impaling foes with pink sticks isn't really the first thing that comes to mind when I think of telekinetic powers. Force is way more in line with the theme of moving objects with your mind, I'd say.



And here I am, going way off topic. ​​

I used to think this way as well, then people around here pointed out the sheer number of times that mentalist powers have been represented by pink stuff in comic books. It's quite appropriate for the genre it turns out.

raighn said:

Telekinetics DO NOT create objects out of mental energy, they MOVE objects with mental energy...

In comic books they do.

soulforger

spinnytop said:

aesica said:

Hell, I'd just be happy if Telekinesis felt like, well, telekinesis. Wielding pink swords and impaling foes with pink sticks isn't really the first thing that comes to mind when I think of telekinetic powers. Force is way more in line with the theme of moving objects with your mind, I'd say.



And here I am, going way off topic. ​​

I used to think this way as well, then people around here pointed out the sheer number of times that mentalist powers have been represented by pink stuff in comic books. It's quite appropriate for the genre it turns out.

raighn said:

Telekinetics DO NOT create objects out of mental energy, they MOVE objects with mental energy...

In comic books they do.

You'd think people would remember that Champions is based off of Comic Book Superheroes, and not real life.

avianos

Psychic Constructs are part of Telepathy powers
I fail to see the logic that it shouldn't be​​

maatmons

pandoraslockbox said:

Don't you think this would make the game a little too easy?

Ranged characters are already effective at any distance. How would a melee/ranged character have things any easier?

decorumfriends

soulforger said:

You'd think people would remember that Champions is based off of Comic Book Superheroes, and not real life.

Heh, well in real life, telekinetics doesn't do anything at all, because it doesn't exist.

soulforger

decorumfriends said:

soulforger said:

You'd think people would remember that Champions is based off of Comic Book Superheroes, and not real life.

Heh, well in real life, telekinetics doesn't do anything at all, because it doesn't exist.

True enough.