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Force of Will for everyone.
sterga
Posts: 2,353 Arc User
All PSS have a buff to defense, most of them are just crap compared to juggy. This isn't meant to be an ideal solution, just a minimal effort one to make other stat choices more interesting. Trying to balance the game is probably never going to happen at this point.
1: Remove Juggernaut, Gear Utilization, Armored, Tinkering from the game and replace with Force of Will.
2: Buff Force of Will to .15/.3 (basically, it ends up being equal to juggy)
- Easier to buff Force of Will than to re-balance a bunch of content that probably took Juggy builds into consideration.
- Easier than changing Guardicator / Wardicator meta as it would require a whole lot of mob re-balancing.
- No one is pissed off that their end game tank just got nerfed.
- More PSS become potential options.
- Less emphasis on Con as the king of stats. (A little bit anyway.)
- Ranged tanks can be more appealing as end game tanks. (Using stats ideal for them instead of str pss for juggy)
- Current Juggy con party builds aren't horrifically gimped. They might get a tiny buff. (Like they invested into the other secondary stat.)
- It's easier to dump the extra point for the removed 3pt skills into a different skill than to figure out what to take a point from in 2pt skills.
- Str is still good for melee toons and not suddenly trash.
- DPS tank healers already exist in the game. This would just give people more options for it.
- No one needs to buy batshitcrazy expensive con mod to have a Beefy McCakes build.
- Free stat respecs for all toons. Or just regular respecs, if that's not possible. It's not like proper respecs are given out all that often.
Simple suggested point changes, but ultimately I don't care:
Str: Brutality +1pt
Dex: Power Swell +1pt
Int, Con: No change
End/Rec: Withstand +1
1: Remove Juggernaut, Gear Utilization, Armored, Tinkering from the game and replace with Force of Will.
2: Buff Force of Will to .15/.3 (basically, it ends up being equal to juggy)
- Easier to buff Force of Will than to re-balance a bunch of content that probably took Juggy builds into consideration.
- Easier than changing Guardicator / Wardicator meta as it would require a whole lot of mob re-balancing.
- No one is pissed off that their end game tank just got nerfed.
- More PSS become potential options.
- Less emphasis on Con as the king of stats. (A little bit anyway.)
- Ranged tanks can be more appealing as end game tanks. (Using stats ideal for them instead of str pss for juggy)
- Current Juggy con party builds aren't horrifically gimped. They might get a tiny buff. (Like they invested into the other secondary stat.)
- It's easier to dump the extra point for the removed 3pt skills into a different skill than to figure out what to take a point from in 2pt skills.
- Str is still good for melee toons and not suddenly trash.
- DPS tank healers already exist in the game. This would just give people more options for it.
- No one needs to buy batshitcrazy expensive con mod to have a Beefy McCakes build.
- Free stat respecs for all toons. Or just regular respecs, if that's not possible. It's not like proper respecs are given out all that often.
Simple suggested point changes, but ultimately I don't care:
Str: Brutality +1pt
Dex: Power Swell +1pt
Int, Con: No change
End/Rec: Withstand +1
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Comments
But strictly in terms of balance, why should Str--a stat which primarily boosts damage--be on equal footing with Con--a stat which boosts health? Logically, it makes little sense, because the way I see it, brick-type superheroes have both Str + Con as superstats, so why can't we just say their resilience comes from having Con PSS instead of Str?
Here's what you do. Dump str pss and take Int. Which one gives you way better defense especially with *icator builds? Hint, it's not tinkering.
When I dumped Str PSS on my current laser sword build for dex pss, the loss of defense and offense from juggy wasn't even remotely compensated by having Gear Utilization. Didn't even have to leave the power house to see how bad that idea was.
I also did another experiment. I ripped out my r7 Impact core for a gamblers and my defense loss from flat offense was around 5% on the tooltip. Even with the percent increase in offense from gear, it's wasn't that much of a drop. Those specs can't even compare to how much better flat defense is.
"Con would still be the go too stat for many..."
Str PSS with con stacking works best in Enrage builds.
Think about a Focus based tank. Even with Str Pss, I need to focus mostly on Dex which is already putting my build at a disadvantage. Enrage builds can get away with only dumping into Str and Con, but a Focus build needs to have high dex as well as decent con. If Juggy was replaced with Force of Will, a MA tank would be able to get as much defense as an Enrage build, even if their HP is lower. The focus build might even be able to get more defense since it wouldn't need to put anything into Str for it's form, even though the HP would be lower.
Not everyone is a min/maxer or has globals out the wazoo. Not taking Con or going juggy wouldn't put a build at such a high disadvantage especially in the end game content we've been getting. My Laser Sword build would be much more powerful if I wasn't using Int for my form and energy unlock. Simply by going with an Enrage build, I would be splitting most of that Int between Str and Con.
"Assuming they make Force of Will actually scale properly instead of this weird thing it does when you don't keep both secondaries close... Since for some strange reason 200 in both secondaries grants more defense than 300 in one and 100 in the other despite the total still being 400... atleast last I checked (which admittedly has been a while)"
Guess the dev would have a damn good reason to fix that, if it's still an issue. I wouldn't have thought there was any difference between 400 and 400, but that's what happens with complexity for complexity's sake.
"This actually wouldn't change, because as mentioned, Juggernaut is as powerful as it is now not just due to the higher scaling value, but because of it's reliance on Con."
It wouldn't change for min/maxers or people with shitloads of globals to blow. For everyone else, they have more interesting choices. Most of the people who play CO are not loaded with fake money or min/max. I really don't care if these changes essential do nothing for a tiny portion of players.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
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@Chimerafreek
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Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
The whole point in my earlier post was just to point out some concerns... truth be told I'd like to see the entire Spec system re-evaluated as there are numerous specs that are overperforming to the point that they are almost required (TBD+AS) and others that are so bad that they are overlooked even by the builds that they were designed for (the entire Commander tree)...
As Aesica pointed out, there's a huge problem when Str PSS provides better survival for tanks than Con PSS when Con has always been the survival stat, and it's whole spec tree is aimed at survival... Additionally, there is the problem with Guard/Wardicator providing exponentially better survival than any combination with Protector (the dedicated Tanking spec) ever could, while simultaneously offering a greater offensive benefit than any Brawler or Avenger combination... Guard/Wardicator is supposed to be a hybrid spec build offering reliable offense and defense, it shouldn't be the best option for both offense and defense like it has been since specs launched...
Changing Juggernaut would be the first correct step in a much larger process...
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On paper +2 from 1 stat and +1 from 2 stats are equivalent values... but in practice you quickly learn that +2 from 1 stat is a MUCH greater value than +1 from 2 stats... and that +2 from 2 stats is closer to equivalent to +2 from 1 stat than +1 from 2 stats ever was... On paper everyone was assumed to have a 50/50 split on their secondary stats... in reality that is rarely the case... you only ever see a 50/50 split if your using heirlooms... beyond that you're almost always going to favor one secondary over the other, for Str PSS users that favor was always on Con... for anyone that had Force of WIll instead of Juggernaut they had to split 50/50 to get the best result, and that result would never come close to measuring up to Con heavy Juggernauts... 200x2 x1 =/= 400 x2... that's basically the situation we ended up with.
Note: I am not using the actual values from Juggernaut or Force of Will, simply because it's easier to express the problem with whole numbers. If you can't handle that, then please feel free to re-write it with the actual values.
You're looking at the game from a vet power player perspective. Balance changes tend to impact high end players the least and everyone else a whole lot more. All this would really accomplish is make a lot of our new content less accessible to more people. Plenty of people make ATs. The tank ATs could certainly use a fantastic buff like Force of Will. Even something like the new Clarence fights are harder for a Behemoth to tank than my solo farm toon.
"I hope you didn't take my comments the wrong way..."
No, but percent offense from gear blows. It's really only useful if you have high offense from something like the Justice set. Something that I doubt many people have. Most gear gives really pitiful offense. A percent of a low number is still a low number. Flat defense is significantly better than % offense. Flat defense is also much better for the secondary trees that often give % increases to offense from defense.
"I'm actually for doing away with Juggernaut and replacing it with Force of Will... "
I would rather see this, however, re-balancing parts of the game would probably be needed. That's a ton of work that I don't see happening. Changing *icator to not be so OP would be nice too, but would also require a lot of additional work to mobs.
Sad state of the game is that flat defense is better for both doing damage and taking damage. Sweeping balance changes to trees and the game don't seem to be in the cards. At least having something like a buffed Force of Will for every PSS would open up some nice build choices. I'd dump Str PSS in a second if Dex or Int had Force of Will.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
This is a big journey, so far if you're reading this, wish you a good day
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Additionally, due to TBD+AS there is zero consiquence for stacking Con with Juggernaut, as all that defense gets transated into more Offense, which inturn becomes even more Defense, etc... The innate balance that should have existed in the form of sacrificing damage to stack defense with Juggernaut simply doesn't exist. It's actually become more beneficial to build Juggernaut+TBD+AS and single stat Con for most builds.
Juggy is .3 VS .1 from Force of Will. It doesn't take much to make con better than the other two stats together without stat dumping into it.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
0.3 vs 0.1... well that throws balance out the window even from the standpoint of equal stats... at that ratio then with 400 total secondaries you'd have to have only 133 Con to have equal defense from Juggernaut as someone with 200 in each secondary with Force of Will... past 133 Con you'd surpass them. If the build with 200 in each secondary was using Con as one of them, then they would always be better with juggernaut...
Yup... Juggernaut definately needs to be replaced with a better balanced Force of Will... absolutely...
At this point I'm starting to question what was even going through the minds of the devs when they made the Juggernaut spec... were they intentionally trying to make the most overpowered spec in the game? Was Force of Will intentionally made to be comparatively useless? Was Force of Will at one point meant to apply to Primary Superstat instead of Secondaries?
Pretty sure most of the people working on CO have been under 30. The Prefrontal Cortex isn't fully developed until 25-30 years old. It's the part of the brain that deals with complex planning, decision making, logical / organized thinking, among other things.
It probably wasn't on purpose, it's just a horrific side effect of an industry with an obsession with youth.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
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[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
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Block timing explained
And it is a big change in performance regardless of if you raise both secondaries or not. I don't know if they ever fixed the issue of it scaling differently if your secondaries were not even or not, but assuming they did. It wouldn't matter if you put 200 in both or 400 in one you'd get +40 defense. If you were instead Juggernaut with 200 in Con you'd have +60 defense or if you went with 400 Con you'd have +120 defense. Now sure, the difference between +40 and +60 may not be a huge difference, but it is a significantly noticeable one.
Also, the simple fact that most characters prioritize one secondary over the other just adds to the problem since a character with 400 Con would have +120 defense with Juggernaut or only +40 with Force of WIll... 3x as much with Juggernaut... that's a HUGE difference... that sort of a gap shouldn't even exist...
Or do you really think anyone is going to go out of their way to perfectly balance their secondary stats just so FoW can be equal to Juggy? Or that no/low-con builds are used often? Both of those things sound like min/maxers or high-end players, but not the bulk of the player population. I already said I don't care about the tiny portion of the playerbase that these changes would least impact.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Ideally Brawlicator/Avengicator/Brawlvenger should provide the highest DPS output
Guardicator/Wardicator should be balanced
Protector+Guardian/Warden/Sentry should provide the highest defensive benefit
etc...
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I would as well, except it would also require re-balancing pretty much all of the new content we've been getting under Kai. Which is why I instead said to add a buffed Force of Will everywhere. It's a whole lot less work. OP AF builds already exist, so this suggestion isn't doing anything one way or another to change that, only open up other options for super powerful builds.
CO needs more than a skeleton crew to do sweeping balance changes that many people would prefer.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
Correction. Content has been balanced around X power level. X happens to be the power level we currently operate at with the current spec setup - which makes sense, since they don't plan to change the specs right now it means they have to balance it for the current spec setup because if they didn't, oops!, the content would be unbalanced. You can't balance content now for what the power level will be several months down the road.
X power level doesn't require the wardicator loop. They can trash the wardicator loop and then simply redo the specs so they still end up at X power level, just better.
PS - the plan is to trash the wardicator loop at some point. Alot of the spec system has that "best thing to use/useless thing" syndrome that is currently being ironed out of the power frameworks, so it's gonna be a big project when the time comes.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.