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Non-MA melee after two sets reviews

aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,618 Arc User
edited August 2018 in Power Discussion
So now that two of the 4 non-MA melee sets (heavy weapons and bestial) have been reviewed and enough time has passed to look at how things perform, I think it's time to have a look at how their dps ended up.

I didn't use any +damage mods since not all sets have those available yet, and had to throw in rising knee for lasersword since chest beam is bugged and doesn't proc enrage.

This is the character I used for testing.



From highest to lowest dps this what I got out of the sets.

(r2 + bloody mess)


(r3)


(r3)


(r2 + scorching blade)


So while haymaker and lasersword and quite similar, oddly enough the two sets that have been recently reviewed show a huge difference. I think this needs another look at to get sets to perform somewhat similar. It looks like bestial dps was balanced without counting in bleed damage, but since that such an integral part of the set I don't think that is fair.
Post edited by aiqa on

Comments

  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 9,600 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    Yea, Massacre prob needs some toning down. Haymaker w/ Demolish debuff combine to be barely better than it even w/o Bleed dps (and w/ the former having a bit better crit rate)? That's a bit wild, if true.
    ________________
    <CO docs> .: Petco :. // Base DPS Sheet (older power data) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,618 Arc User
    I redid the massacre test already in this parse, the first time I was a bit more lucky with the crits and it ended up at 7.1k dps. But that was with a 40% crit chance, and I didn't think that fair to compare.
  • h4forumsh4forums Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    I don't have numbers to back it up, but isn't this more of a demonstration of how good the bloody mess spec is? I wonder if r3 massacre would be more in line with the other skills.

    edit: also what about laser sword r2 + the increasing dmg spec?
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,285 Arc User
    h4forums said:

    I don't have numbers to back it up, but isn't this more of a demonstration of how good the bloody mess spec is? I wonder if r3 massacre would be more in line with the other skills.

    r3 would lose about 400 dps; r2+bloody mess is 8.3% better than r3.
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,618 Arc User
    Should have probably added a disclaimer about laser sword. R3 was as far as I could keep energy cost under control. Also laser sword has not received any review yet, so it was more added as a bonus. The interesting part here is more the HW and bestial stuff.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,285 Arc User
    Part of the problem might be Eviscerate -- tap to refresh all bleeds and refresh Shredded is a bit much. Delete the Shredded refresh and you'd have to throw in a cycle of Shred which would cut your dps by a bit (similar to the need to use Demolish for the haymaker build).
  • kaizerinkaizerin Posts: 2,124 Cryptic Developer
    edited November 2016
    Based on this thread and based on overall feedback and discussions I read, I don't think players have really explored other melee combinations.

    So while I cannot give you exact base numbers for abilities, here's a list of melee abilities broken down by tier based on their intended normalized damage output. What I mean by this is on paper these abilities are supposed to have roughly the same output with one another. This includes their activation times.

    This doesn't include everything and I can potentially expand this list at a later date

    The bracket difference isn't huge, but should be noticeable during a parse:


    Bracket 1:
    • Dragon's Claws (high crit/severity)


    Bracket 2:
    • Annihilate (against knock immune target, advantaged)
    • Gauntlet Chainsaw (advantaged, situational)
    • Haymaker (against knock immune target)
    • Laser Sword (no adv)
    • Massacre (advantaged)
    • Tiger's Bite (shred rupture)


    Bracket 3:
    • Annihilate (against knock immune target, no adv)
    • Burning Chi Fist (no adv)
    • Devour Essence
    • Dragon Uppercut (against knock immune target)
    • Dragon's Wrath (not taking into account target resistance, advantaged)
    • Gauntlet Chainsaw (no adv)
    • Massacre (no adv)
    • Reaper's Embrace (bleed rupture)
    • Tiger's Bite (no shred)


    Bracket 4:
    • Dragon's Bite (no bleed)
    • Dragon's Claws (no crit)
    • Dragon's Wrath (not taking into account target resistance, no adv)
    • Ego Blade Annihilation (rupture)
    • Reaper's Embrace (no bleed rupture)
    • Thrash


    Bracket 5:
    • Annihilate (no knock immune, no adv)
    • Demolish
    • Dragon Uppercut (no knock immune)
    • Ego Blade Annihilation (no rupture)
    • Ego Blade Breech
    • Haymaker (no knock immune)



    Now on paper doesn't always mean it translates to in practice as there are many other factors to take into account (dot accessibility, resistance debuffs, bugs, power rotations, etc).

    Annihilate lagging behind I find interesting as during local tests it was keeping up just fine, which points to something else being the cause. Annihilate is slower than most other abilities, and this could be a case of lag causing some problems as its base damage is coming up lower than expected in that parse.

    Same for Haymaker. On paper it should be performing incredibly well, but in practice its base damage seems low.

    Now I know that many of these abilities are performing up to par as I use them on live myself. But perhaps this knowledge can assist players in pointing out what holes some of these abilities have to bring them up to speed or just find possible bugs with them. Or at the very least broaden player's perception for 'viable' melee attacks.

    As always please keep the discussion constructive.​​
    Post edited by kaizerin on
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,618 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    I think the biggest difference here is not the actual attacks, but more the set around them. When just spamming massacre or annihilate the damage is pretty similar. But bleed/shredded lasts longer than CF, shredded is a stronger debuff, and bleed is a far stronger DoT.

    If you just ignore all that the sets are quite well balanced, but I don't think that is a good premise.
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 9,600 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    Okay, so you think we are doing something that favors Massacre's optimal setup too much and not enough for the others that have been tested? I mean, for example, Massacre has been the focus of this topic, and here you put it in the same bracket as Haymaker, Annihilate, and LSword. It could be that attacks w/ certain pre-set activation and/or charge times are more predisposed to input lag? I mean, I always thought it was a bit weird to see a '0.83 sec' activation time or a 'X.17 sec' charge time outlined- are frames really that precise when the ability is spammed? If more lag impacted Annihilate, though, then I'm not sure that would account for a ~23% gap, for example, which is still very large. I guess one thing in Massacre's favor is that heavy DoTs tick regardless of input lag.

    The list itself is cool and a bit enlightening on what's going on behind the curtain, but can raise some questions. I am a bit curious if, for example, DC and TBite's positions should be swapped ideally? I mean, currently I do think that Shredded + TB builds can out-perform even DC + Shredded ones w/o TB, but I think that's kinda the way it should be since DC has Rush, TB depletes a debuff, and TB costs more innately. Reaper's Embrace + Rupture also being put in the 3rd bracket is a bit surprising to me, but perhaps you meant that also w/o Shredded, and w/ Shredded its in bracket 1 or 2? hmm..

    I also think that BCF should be a bit higher. It doesn't proc Rush, its more costly than DU, doesn't debuff or get a knock bonus afaik, and its an end tier power for Unarmed. Part of this could be addressed, maybe, by making its DoT stack? Currently it doesn't, and given how fast the attack is, maybe that could be changed? DE and Thrash are also in diff brackets, which seems a bit odd but perhaps I'm just missing a detail.

    Regardless, thanks for the input and feedback, Kaiz. I may be having trouble getting ACT for work w/ CO again, so I can't really add much hard data, but if there's anything you think we should be focusing on when testing or parsing, let us know.
    ________________
    <CO docs> .: Petco :. // Base DPS Sheet (older power data) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,285 Arc User
    The problem is really with Eviscerate. Looking at the above parse:

    Massacre parse: 141s. Appears to be taps, about 0.83s each. Massacre and Eviscerate are about the same speed, so the net contribution is:
    Debuff (-20%)
    Bleed Refresh: +97,572 damage
    Damage Delta: -10,830 damage (diff between 10 massacres and 10 eviscerates)
    Net effect: +615 dps, and a -20% debuff.

    Haymaker parse: 198s. Appears to be full charges, so 13 demolish are costing 10.2 haymakers. Net contribution is:
    Debuff (-18%)
    Damage Delta: -27,935 (difference between 13 demolishes and 10.2 haymakers)
    Net Effect: -141 dps, and a -18% debuff.

    Annihilate parse: 199s. Appears to be taps, about 1.02s each, so one arc of ruin costs 1 annihilate. Net contribution is:
    Debuff (-15%)
    Clinging Flames Refresh: +16,950 damage
    Damage Delta: -63,403 (difference between 19 arcs and 19 annihilates).
    Net effect: -233 dps, and a -15% debuff.
  • kaizerinkaizerin Posts: 2,124 Cryptic Developer
    edited November 2016
    A lot of sets haven't gone through balance revisions, so it's likely stuff will be shifted around in the future, but the goal is to ensure that sets are capable of roughly the same output.

    Right now the melee differences aren't *that* bad. There is a lot of room for improvement (TK Blades are lagging quite a bit behind and some powers should probably not be so high on the list considering the other effects they have).

    A lot of melee sets however currently achieve respectable numbers, and I feel a lot of pre-conceived notions are hampering players from trying out different setups.

    Edit: Regarding HW there are some tweaks that could probably be made to even things out a bit. Resistance debuffs are still being worked on, and while Shredded provides higher values, there are far more crushing debuffs currently in circulation which will make a difference in group content.

    Annihilate's base damage seems low, but it does look like debuff duration/debuff amount is likely the cause of that.​​
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 9,600 Arc User
    Yea, I don't think I or others are arguing that melee dps balance is bad or anything. Atm it is pretty good considering the innumerable combinations out there, and even when balancing is unfinished. I guess for me its a concern of how much that which has already been revisited is concrete vs. how much are you guys willing to tweak even revisited things. It seems you guys are willing to make continued adjustments, which is good, but I guess its just gonna be like that till most/all of the powerset reviews you plan are implemented.

    So, long haul..
    ________________
    <CO docs> .: Petco :. // Base DPS Sheet (older power data) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • kaizerinkaizerin Posts: 2,124 Cryptic Developer
    It's going to be a slow process and some stuff may come off as weird decisions at the time, but we want all sets to be fun to play and competitive with one another.

    But analyzing set outputs and pointing out what works, what doesn't and what may be causing something to overperform is always welcome and can help with the process.​​
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,285 Arc User
    A side note: observe that Bleed was doing 694 dps, plasma burn 305, clinging flames 84. Some of that is because bleed is tagged melee while clinging flames is tagged ranged, but the clinging flames mechanic in general is somewhat underperforming (actually, lots of set special mechanics are. I don't think anyone's made much use of the arcing effect on Negative Ions since Death Arc was nerfed back in 2010, for example).
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,618 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    Bleeds and eviscerate are quite a big issue in my opinion. For any build doing slashing damage you want shredded, and if you are applying that you might as well do that with an attack that also adds bleeds for free dps, and if you have both of those you are just shooting your own foot not getting eviscerate to refresh both bleed and shredded for the cost of 1 power and 1 adv point.
    Post edited by aiqa on
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,618 Arc User
    It's interesting to see how much better haymaker does with eviscerate than with demolish.


  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,285 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    The basic problem with Eviscerate is that it completely refreshes debuffs that require 2.5 melee combos (5s nominal, 6s more realistic) to apply, and takes around 0.7s. it could do zero damage and be overperforming. Looking at the above parses, to be comparable with Demolish it should be costing about 115,000 raw damage. Since it's only replacing 48,000 damage worth of Massacre, either its damage needs to be negative, or it needs to require a lot more uses (or demolish could be better)

    The easiest option would be some reduction in base damage, combined with a proc rate on the refresh. Set the refresh chance to 20%, and set its tap damage to 50% of massacre, and the net is -120,000 damage. There are other possibilities, but the general thing is that refreshing 5 stacks of bleed is incredibly valuable (a proc could also be applied to the refresh on bite and dragon's bite, though dragon's bite would probably want to scale with charge time; bite has rupture effects so no need).

    I don't know if the game allows this, but something like refreshing the bleed with the lowest remaining duration (instead of all stacks) would work nicely.
    Post edited by pantagruel01 on
  • morigosamorigosa Posts: 698 Arc User
    A chance to proc refreshes would be incredibly clunky and annoying. It'd be better to, for example, make it so it only refreshes shredded on a full charge.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,285 Arc User
    morigosa said:

    A chance to proc refreshes would be incredibly clunky and annoying. It'd be better to, for example, make it so it only refreshes shredded on a full charge.

    So it only refreshes shredded if you rupture your bleeds? That seems problematic.

    TBH, stack refreshes should probably just go away, they're almost always balance problems. It would mean people would actually use ruptures, too.
  • morigosamorigosa Posts: 698 Arc User

    So it only refreshes shredded if you rupture your bleeds? That seems problematic.

    That was the idea, yes; it seems more in line with the benefit of a one point advantage, and making that change would also mean you couldn't just ignore Shred after initial build-up of debuffs - either you need to use it periodically to re-apply shredded, or you need to use it to re-apply bleeds after Eviscerate's super-bleed wears off - but, with the shredded refresh on Eviscerate, you wouldn't need to use shred while that super-bleed was ticking.

    In other words, it's a change that would promote the use of Eviscerate's rupture instead of just tapping it for a bleed refresh.
  • kaizerinkaizerin Posts: 2,124 Cryptic Developer
    edited November 2016
    I don't know if the game allows this, but something like refreshing the bleed with the lowest remaining duration (instead of all stacks) would work nicely.

    Was thinking about the the other night and thought that if something were to happen, it would likely be to the duration Eviscerate can refresh bleed/shredded. Refreshes do not have to refresh the full amount, but the amount does have to be static.​​
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,618 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    Having to use evsicerate taps more often doesn't really lower your dps a lot. This is with tapping eviscerate when ever bleed duration had 10 seconds left.



    Bleed dps is a bit higher since I forgot enrage improves bleed damage. This time I build bleed after first getting 8 enrage stacks.

    Since there were some questions about annihilate's low damage I did a retest. And I was able to push it up a few hundred, but still under haymaker and way under massacre.


    Post edited by aiqa on
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,285 Arc User
    aiqa said:

    Having to use evsicerate taps more often doesn't really lower your dps a lot.

    As they take basically the same time, it lowers your dps by (difference in tap damage) / (frequency of taps).

    The other thing is that below a certain duration the odds of losing all your stacks rises substantially.
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,618 Arc User
    Having thought about it, I don't really agree melee is all that well balanced. If 1 set that has been recently reviewed ends up with over 20% higher dps then another set that has been recently reviewed, that is not well balanced. That is about the same difference as switching from hybrid to dps role, I don't think that can be considered a trivial difference.
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 9,600 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    Problem though, is that its also fair to say its still a work in progress. That requires having some more faith/trust in the devs to correct it eventually. W/ such a small team, it is hard to do a complete balance review even of half the sets while still developing costumes, new/revamped sets, tweaking events, etc.

    I will say that it wouldn't be good for the long term if things stayed like this, so we'll just have to see and hold them to some feedback.
    ________________
    <CO docs> .: Petco :. // Base DPS Sheet (older power data) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,618 Arc User
    As a reminder, most of these balance issues are still in the game. Energy swords did get a review, but the rest is still exactly the same.
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