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Kunai with Chain needs better range.

hasukurobihasukurobi Posts: 405 Arc User
in Power Discussion
The new Kunai power is very nice and almost perfect except for one little thing. This is a power meant to bring enemies to you but its range is so short that you may as well just walk. It is only 15 higher than most melee attacks to begin with. The chain pulls are all notably further and lunges as well. If it had that sort of range it would be a perfect new addition to Martial Arts. The previous incarnation of this also had a larger range.

Comments

  • purin1purin1 Posts: 433 Arc User
    All chain powers except for the Infernal variations are 25ft now. These all scale with melee damage bonuses, so it'd be a bit much if they were longer range than that. If anything, they can use a range increase of 5-10 feet to match something like Particle Smash which also scales with melee damage.
    I strive to be the strongest swordsman alive.
  • hasukurobihasukurobi Posts: 405 Arc User
    purin1 said:

    All chain powers except for the Infernal variations are 25ft now. These all scale with melee damage bonuses, so it'd be a bit much if they were longer range than that. If anything, they can use a range increase of 5-10 feet to match something like Particle Smash which also scales with melee damage.

    Indeed they should be around the range of a lunge or closer to it. At 25 it is just 15 from being in melee range which is super short. Too short really.
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,537 Arc User
    Chained Kunai, as well as Barbed/Iron Lariat, should all be 50 feet. The knock-to is generally worthless now since:

    1) You're already going to be in range (25 feet) to use your other chain powers.

    2) Not everything is susceptible to knocks, due to either DR or innate immunity.

    3) Lunges have a much shorter cooldown (3 seconds as opposed to 10 seconds) and accomplish roughly the same thing (getting you close enough to attack your target). Also, their range is 60 feet and there is no DR on their gap-closing capability.

    The only appeal I really see in these powers now are the utility advantages, such as as the bleed apply over time on chained kunai and barbed lariat, clinging flames apply on iron lariat, stimpack heal on all, etc.
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • purin1purin1 Posts: 433 Arc User
    aesica said:

    Chained Kunai, as well as Barbed/Iron Lariat, should all be 50 feet. The knock-to is generally worthless now since:

    1) You're already going to be in range (25 feet) to use your other chain powers.

    2) Not everything is susceptible to knocks, due to either DR or innate immunity.

    3) Lunges have a much shorter cooldown (3 seconds as opposed to 10 seconds) and accomplish roughly the same thing (getting you close enough to attack your target). Also, their range is 60 feet and there is no DR on their gap-closing capability.

    The only appeal I really see in these powers now are the utility advantages, such as as the bleed apply over time on chained kunai and barbed lariat, clinging flames apply on iron lariat, stimpack heal on all, etc.

    Being in range to use your other chain powers probably isn't the whole point. It's to close the gap as you already know.

    If it's not susceptible to knocks, the utility advantages typically take care of that problem for deciding whether you really need to use it or not.

    Lunges do not provide nearly as much utility as the pull powers, and deal much lower damage. With all of the ways for both players and AI to keep distance between you and them, having more than just a lunge is pretty desirable. Not to mention there is still a travel time over that 60 feet, and there are plenty of ways for it the lunge to be cancelled. Meanwhile, the pull powers are nearly instant and have a chance to completely incapacitate the target through a knock-to. Knock-to powers have never been a strong choice simply for closing the gap - they've always needed something to go along with them. They're perfectly fine now by trading range for damage.
    I strive to be the strongest swordsman alive.
  • hasukurobihasukurobi Posts: 405 Arc User
    purin1 said:

    aesica said:

    Chained Kunai, as well as Barbed/Iron Lariat, should all be 50 feet. The knock-to is generally worthless now since:

    1) You're already going to be in range (25 feet) to use your other chain powers.

    2) Not everything is susceptible to knocks, due to either DR or innate immunity.

    3) Lunges have a much shorter cooldown (3 seconds as opposed to 10 seconds) and accomplish roughly the same thing (getting you close enough to attack your target). Also, their range is 60 feet and there is no DR on their gap-closing capability.

    The only appeal I really see in these powers now are the utility advantages, such as as the bleed apply over time on chained kunai and barbed lariat, clinging flames apply on iron lariat, stimpack heal on all, etc.

    Being in range to use your other chain powers probably isn't the whole point. It's to close the gap as you already know.

    If it's not susceptible to knocks, the utility advantages typically take care of that problem for deciding whether you really need to use it or not.

    Lunges do not provide nearly as much utility as the pull powers, and deal much lower damage. With all of the ways for both players and AI to keep distance between you and them, having more than just a lunge is pretty desirable. Not to mention there is still a travel time over that 60 feet, and there are plenty of ways for it the lunge to be cancelled. Meanwhile, the pull powers are nearly instant and have a chance to completely incapacitate the target through a knock-to. Knock-to powers have never been a strong choice simply for closing the gap - they've always needed something to go along with them. They're perfectly fine now by trading range for damage.
    I tend to strongly disagree. They really are an either or with lunges. Many lunges paralyze or knock down the target thus effectively stopping them just like a knock-to would and in some cases more reliably. Many lunges also snare or root and all have Nailed to the Ground on them. This means they are very effective at getting most enemies to stop what they are doing and hold still for a moment so you can pound them. It is not that easy to avoid a lunge unless it is at its very furthest range despite the short travel time. Many of the knock-to powers have a charge up time as well and root you while you do this making it easier to counter them.

    At the pathetic range they now have they are just another attack and not a very good one. While thematically not as appropriate for many characters Hold-Out Shot is a far superior heal/damage dealer and that is just a click not a charge. At 25 feet your opponent is already so close that knocking them to you is almost more of a disadvantage because you cannot usually attack a flying enemy very well so effectively you are making them temporarily immune while solving a problem you could have fixed by taking a couple of steps in their direction.
  • purin1purin1 Posts: 433 Arc User
    It's not that lunges lack utility: the knock-to powers have utility that lunges lack. There's also no point in charging up the knock-to powers unless you want more damage. Not to mention some of them actually don't knock when fully charged.

    And like I said, they were buffed to receive more damage. 25ft doesn't sound like much but that is still 2.5x the distance of all other melee attacks. If you're going to complain about these attacks having short distance, that's just melee in general. They were changed to work better with melee builds, and we still have the Infernal Supernatural variations at 50ft for those who really want the extra distance.

    I don't know what you mean by not being able to attack a flying enemy. They're completely invulnerable while being knocked towards you, plus they're knocked down. It's better than a stun in many cases because there are no ways to escape knocks in general.
    I strive to be the strongest swordsman alive.
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,537 Arc User
    purin1 said:

    It's not that lunges lack utility: the knock-to powers have utility that lunges lack. There's also no point in charging up the knock-to powers unless you want more damage. Not to mention some of them actually don't knock when fully charged.

    And like I said, they were buffed to receive more damage. 25ft doesn't sound like much but that is still 2.5x the distance of all other melee attacks. If you're going to complain about these attacks having short distance, that's just melee in general. They were changed to work better with melee builds, and we still have the Infernal Supernatural variations at 50ft for those who really want the extra distance.

    I don't know what you mean by not being able to attack a flying enemy. They're completely invulnerable while being knocked towards you, plus they're knocked down. It's better than a stun in many cases because there are no ways to escape knocks in general.

    This leads us back to the original point I was making: The 25-foot knock-to powers are lackluster for gap closing since traditional gap closers do a better job overall:

    1) The other chain attacks are also approximately 25 feet, so you could pull something to you, or you could just whack away at it with your chain combo power or your chain cyclone because they're already in range.

    2) 25 feet is more than most melee powers offer, but 60 feet is even better than that.

    3) Lunges cost a fraction of the energy compared to the lariats and chained kunai.

    4) This is probably the most important part of all, and is very much a thing: Lunges get you INTO the pack quickly, whereas the knock-to only pulls one thing OUT of the pack. This is important if you plan on following up with a PBAoE, as it means the difference between downing the entire trash pack in seconds or having to run around picking off the ranged guys after the melee mobs are all dead.

    5) With only 3 seconds of cooldown time, if your lunge fails, you'll be able to use it again very soon. The 10 seconds on the lariats are a lot less forgiving in that regard.

    I'm not saying the knock-to powers don't have utility, because they do. The problem is that, due to their short range, it's really just through their optional advantages which generally have nothing to do with the featured knock-to effect.
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • hasukurobihasukurobi Posts: 405 Arc User
    purin1 said:

    It's not that lunges lack utility: the knock-to powers have utility that lunges lack. There's also no point in charging up the knock-to powers unless you want more damage. Not to mention some of them actually don't knock when fully charged.

    And like I said, they were buffed to receive more damage. 25ft doesn't sound like much but that is still 2.5x the distance of all other melee attacks. If you're going to complain about these attacks having short distance, that's just melee in general. They were changed to work better with melee builds, and we still have the Infernal Supernatural variations at 50ft for those who really want the extra distance.

    I don't know what you mean by not being able to attack a flying enemy. They're completely invulnerable while being knocked towards you, plus they're knocked down. It's better than a stun in many cases because there are no ways to escape knocks in general.

    What I mean about the flying enemy is that when you pull them to you they cannot be attacked. If you instead walked over to them you could attack them constantly. If you lunge at them you can attack them constantly. There is not that break where you cannot attack them with other powers.

    2.5X the distance sounds like a lot but in reality it is not. In game terms it is a short step or two in one direction. It is so very easy for the enemy to walk out of that range that it is pointless to have it be a "ranged" type of effect. To use it reliably you will want to be closer than 25 feet which means being in melee range already which completely negates the usefulness of a knock-to effect.

    You suggest it has particular utility but just briefly stunning something is not something that most lunges do not already do and with all the other advantages. Gaining a little damage boost over a lunge is not really worth losing all the range that makes these attacks useful. I mean why bother wasting a slot on something to pull the enemy to me when I can walk to them at the same range and hit them with something far more damaging? Something that does not have a cooldown at that.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    Just super speed over to your target. I don't even use lunges anymore cause what's the point? Being 50 feet wouldn't make these powers any more useful for closing distance than your W key.

    Uses these powers still have that were already their primary use before:

    - proccing Enrage
    - Interrupting enemies

    New use for some chain powers:

    - applying debuffs
    - dealing decent damage
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  • hasukurobihasukurobi Posts: 405 Arc User
    spinnytop said:

    Just super speed over to your target. I don't even use lunges anymore cause what's the point? Being 50 feet wouldn't make these powers any more useful for closing distance than your W key.

    Uses these powers still have that were already their primary use before:

    - proccing Enrage
    - Interrupting enemies

    New use for some chain powers:

    - applying debuffs
    - dealing decent damage

    Dealing decent damage is honestly being generous with the Cooldown in mind.
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