How does NWO handle Crowd Control? Should CO take notes?

sigmaseven0

The ongoing struggle with what to do with CC related powers (especially telepathy) has me wondering this. I have never played NWO so maybe some kind soul who has can give me a general idea of how CC works in that other game running on the Cryptic engine.

I would also be interested in what (if any) thoughts anyone has on if/how CO may benefit form adapting the CC implementation that NWO uses.

sigmaseven0

spinnytop said:

sigmaseven0 said:

sigh...
I'm not going to waste any more time on this, and can't help but feel that Ive been trolled into stating the obvious. SMH...

You wasted your time the entire time. If I or anyone else decide that TK Maelstrom fits our Telapathy theme then you get no say in the matter.

Your not understanding my point and thus inadvertently straw-manning me.
That's fine, this thread has already served it propose and is ok if you don't get it.

*smiles while patting spinnytop on the head and walks away*

kallethen

Crowd Control in NW has a shorter duration on average than in CO, I believe. It is also less effective in PvP as it is in PvE if I remember right (I don't PvP much). I'm not sure if NW does anything drastically different than CO beyond that.

Perhaps one thing that helps in NW is that characters are in specific classes each with their own powers while CO has Freeform that can cherry pick any powers. That probably makes it easier to keep in balance on NW.​​

aesica

Most well-designed games handle CC by not making it as spammable as it is in CO, or if it is spammable, limiting it to only being fragile and only able to be active on 1 target at a time. While CO has a few abilities made with the obvious intent to be less spammable in mind (10-20 sec cooldowns) the problem that arises is that:

1) CC is on so many other, highly-spammable abilities as either a random-chance secondary effect like with cleave or venomous breath + paralytic bile, or on more spam-friendly, low/no cooldown abilities such as thunderclap, roomsweeper crashing wave kick, pillar of poz, etc.

2) With the abilities focused strictly on CC that do have longer cooldowns, you could still mix and match enough crowd control cooldowns to pretty much always have one active if you take enough of them.

This is why CO's CC has devolved into knockback spam mixed with a healthy dose of chain stuns. The game would be totally broken without adding diminishing returns on everything. Meanwhile, most other self-respecting games don't need diminishing returns on either mob-to-player CC or player-to-mob CC because they managed their CC design better.

To modernize, CO would need to put all CC-focused abilities of a similar type on a shared cooldown (electrocute, bolas, etc) and remove a lot of secondary CC from abilities such as roomsweeper. Until they do, diminishing returns on everything is the bandaid fix we get.

chaelk

NW had crowd control, if it's any good. It rapidly gets to plague proportion, then when people start to complain about it in PvP. It gets nerfed.​​

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pantagruel01

The real problem with CC in CO isn't the diminishing returns stuff; while it could probably be better implemented, that's just a means of applying a global cooldown. The problem is that the game is pretty seriously out of balance, in that foes that are supposed to be dangerous and worth the trouble to crowd control (say, MVs) are actually treated as trash mobs.

markhawkman

Knocks that apply a disable that lasts longer than the knock are one of the worst things.

reiwulf

just for a reference, in NW Control Wizards a supposedly control heavy class, was (is?) the top DPS in the game, way over DPS exclusive classes. So I dont know if we should take our lessons from NW.

riverocean

In many games crowd controllers sacrifice something for that control. Usually dps and sturdiness. CO is a FF game where anything goes - so balancing crowd control here is very tricky. The telepathy tree and the Mind AT used to specialize in crowed control. Powers like psychic vortex were actually useful then. But the TP set's hold powers were nerfed. However, limiting crowd control is something that is much more common in games now than in the past. The reason mostly given is that players don't find being held fun - especially in pvp. I crowd control. I had multiple controllers and dominators in the old COH game. There's hasn't been a game yet that allows me to play a controller of nearly that level anymore. With high level gear I had ridiculous hold times -- it was way over the top -- but oh so much fun. Nothing like that is ever going to come around again.

championshewolf

reiwulf said:

just for a reference, in NW Control Wizards a supposedly control heavy class, was (is?) the top DPS in the game, way over DPS exclusive classes. So I dont know if we should take our lessons from NW.

Control Wizards are essentially OP because of several factors that Cryptic seems unable or just unwilling to address. Instead of tackling the main issues they just ignore them and try to Band-Aid the results instead of the cause. This, of course, creates a huge issue where the control wizard is not only the best DPS in the game, but also the most survivable class outside of specific scenarios.

Several of the factors that lead to the control wizard being so powerful are, but not limited to;

• Highly mobile class. Where all other classes tend to eat their defense mechanic alive if they use it extensively, and most don't provide near that level of protection or control of it, the control wizard can use their defensive shift power a number of times in a given moment, and it allows them to literally dictate the fight their way, with the addition of it being a fairly decent recharge. As they level up and get gear and such they can dictate this even more with cost reducers. Compare this to all other classes that essentially either lose control of their character or still take damage while using their defensive shift power, and well you just created a highly mobile striker class. Control Wizard's defensive shift power is not only mobility but essentially I take no damage ever button, when used well, and add on top of that unlike say a priest, warlock or ranger, the time delay between defensive shift click to being able to attack again is exceptionally minimal. I know I used it to tank back in the early days just by timing my shift key presses when the bosses were actually tough.
  
• A lot of defensive powers. Control wizards get a lot of powers designed to keep them alive. Of course there are favorites of course, but barring most situations wizards just have the power to survive better than most control or DPS oriented classes. The only thing tougher at that stage are tanks really.
  
• High base damage. Control wizards base damage is too high considering their mobility and ability to ignore damage completely and continue attacking with very little interruption.
  
• Just synergise too well with certain sets. Certain set bonuses just play well to the Control Wizard set up. Plain and simple, and these sets are hardly, if ever, addressed.
  

Realistically, the control wizard should not be as powerful as it is, but it has become the quintessential tank mage in Neverwinter because of the reluctance of Cryptic to address the fundamental issues with the class.

reiwulf

absolutely agree, and I maintain my point, no balance tips from NW, ever.

prettycelt

championshewolf said:

reiwulf said:

just for a reference, in NW Control Wizards a supposedly control heavy class, was (is?) the top DPS in the game, way over DPS exclusive classes. So I dont know if we should take our lessons from NW.

Control Wizards are essentially OP because of several factors that Cryptic seems unable or just unwilling to address. Instead of tackling the main issues they just ignore them and try to Band-Aid the results instead of the cause. This, of course, creates a huge issue where the control wizard is not only the best DPS in the game, but also the most survivable class outside of specific scenarios.

Several of the factors that lead to the control wizard being so powerful are, but not limited to;

• Highly mobile class. Where all other classes tend to eat their defense mechanic alive if they use it extensively, and most don't provide near that level of protection or control of it, the control wizard can use their defensive shift power a number of times in a given moment, and it allows them to literally dictate the fight their way, with the addition of it being a fairly decent recharge. As they level up and get gear and such they can dictate this even more with cost reducers. Compare this to all other classes that essentially either lose control of their character or still take damage while using their defensive shift power, and well you just created a highly mobile striker class. Control Wizard's defensive shift power is not only mobility but essentially I take no damage ever button, when used well, and add on top of that unlike say a priest, warlock or ranger, the time delay between defensive shift click to being able to attack again is exceptionally minimal. I know I used it to tank back in the early days just by timing my shift key presses when the bosses were actually tough.
  
• A lot of defensive powers. Control wizards get a lot of powers designed to keep them alive. Of course there are favorites of course, but barring most situations wizards just have the power to survive better than most control or DPS oriented classes. The only thing tougher at that stage are tanks really.
  
• High base damage. Control wizards base damage is too high considering their mobility and ability to ignore damage completely and continue attacking with very little interruption.
  
• Just synergise too well with certain sets. Certain set bonuses just play well to the Control Wizard set up. Plain and simple, and these sets are hardly, if ever, addressed.
  

Realistically, the control wizard should not be as powerful as it is, but it has become the quintessential tank mage in Neverwinter because of the reluctance of Cryptic to address the fundamental issues with the class.

You must not have played NWO lately lol.

sigmaseven0

prettycelt said:

You must not have played NWO lately lol.

Care to expand on that? Remember, some of us have NEVER played it.

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championshewolf

gradii said:

sigmaseven0 said:

prettycelt said:

You must not have played NWO lately lol.

Care to expand on that? Remember, some of us have NEVER played it.

Well my main in NWO is a control wizard and she never felt very powerful... maybe theres been nerfs to control wizards. I dont play NWO much anymore since it lags like hell in dungeons.

Then, sorry to say, you must be doing something wrong. The top class especially as far as damage is concerned has always been the control wizard.

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championshewolf

gradii said:

championshewolf said:

gradii said:

sigmaseven0 said:

prettycelt said:

You must not have played NWO lately lol.

Care to expand on that? Remember, some of us have NEVER played it.

Well my main in NWO is a control wizard and she never felt very powerful... maybe theres been nerfs to control wizards. I dont play NWO much anymore since it lags like hell in dungeons.

Then, sorry to say, you must be doing something wrong. The top class especially as far as damage is concerned has always been the control wizard.

Actually I have a strong feeling you are out of date and don't know what you're talking about, given our recent discussion about STO gear..

The last time doing enough dps not to be carried in pugs required gear which was not completely free from missions in game was years ago.

Yes, because playing the game just recently didn't tell me anything I didn't need to know, that OPs are still ridiculously resilient, and CWs are still at the top of the food chain.

theravenforce

When I first played NWO, as a Control Wizard...it felt right. I actually used to go over there for my "CC fix"

I stopped playing after I heard some parts of the Crowd Control they had were nerfed to "Champions Online standards" (not my words, was told by another player)

I never bothered to check this out for myself mind you, but basically, CW's used to have very good crowd control ability, you felt strong enough to take on bigger enemies and provide useful CC against an actively attacking and being attacked target, but not overwhelmingly OP.

--

I wouldn't take anything much from NWO, aside from that disk travel power that looks like a Force Disk.

--

As for my thoughts on Crowd Control...you can have a look at my fake patch notes in my Crowd Control discussion thread linked in my sig.

Those are what I'd use to START CC down a much better path in CO.

--

It is important to note that opinions on CC will always be very much different because some do not actually give two sh*ts about a mechanic and don't actually want it to be very useful or...as useful as DPS/Tank/Heal.

Many players do look at CC from a PvP perspective and want to really limit how strong CC is so that they never face something they can't escape easily.

I view Crowd Control as a mechanic which should be available to be dedicated to / focused on and should be just as useful everywhere, just like every other mechanic. That is not a popular opinion.

Basically, I do not expect Crowd Control to flatly "get better" in Champions Online. If it was touched, it would likely be nerfed heavily (like we're seeing at the moment and no doubt will do later) or it would be buffed but have severe downsides, which would make it more undesirable, possibly even to the point where I'm put off by it.

spinnytop

Don't worry everyone, my Dog tank is still 100% functional. s( u w u )z

markhawkman

I'll be honest... if player CC was even close to the way enemy CC is it'd be utterly broken.... enemy CC is pretty ridiculous as is. Getting knocked all the way out of attack range repeatedly is ridiculous. More so when it's one of those knocks that causes your character to be disabled even after they stopped flying...

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aiqa

Cosmics are a good example of how CC can be very useful.
In stead of 4 tank + 4 healers, you can handle all 4 of Kiga's hounds with 1 CC build (even non-tank CC builds).
The same goes for Qwyjibo. Instead of getting a large group of very good dps builds, and still struggle, you can handle all the hearts with 1 CC build.

I would have liked to see everyone that has been asking for more useful CC over the years to jump at the opportunity our endgame now provides, since there is finally a significant demand for CC builds. But unfortunately that isn't happening, the people who are using CC builds for comics are not the "traditional" CC fans. So in stead of asking if CO should take notes from NW, I think players need to show the effort to make CC useful is actually paying off, and CC fans foremost.

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theravenforce

aiqa said:

Cosmics are a good example of how CC can be very useful.

In stead of 4 tank + 4 healers, you can handle all 4 of Kiga's hounds with 1 CC build (even non-tank CC builds).

The same goes for Qwyjibo. Instead of getting a large group of very good dps builds, and still struggle, you can handle all the hearts with 1 CC build.



I would have liked to see everyone that has been asking for more useful CC over the years to jump at the opportunity our endgame now provides, since there is finally a significant demand for CC builds. But unfortunately that isn't happening, the people who are using CC builds for comics are not the "traditional" CC fans. So in stead of asking if CO should take notes from NW, I think players need to show the effort to make CC useful is actually paying off, and CC fans foremost.

Having two "crafted" instances where Crowd Control is "useful" does not solve the major issue in CO that the mechanic is pretty much dead and does in no way shape or form reward focused gameplay/play style in relation to Crowd Control.

I find it hilarious that people are saying that CC builds are now "very useful in endgame content" because in reality...they aren't.

Why do I say that after running TA and Cosmics?

Because anyone can take a healer and grab a rank 3 Ego Sleep or another non damaging hold and apply it to Kiga's Dogs...or Qwyjibo's hearts...and still focus on their primary play style...which is healing.

A Hybrid or DPS build may (with significant stretching) be able to accomplish a similar task. We know that tanks can "become CC" and apply holds that way.

Or if enough tanks show up people can simply tank dogs with a personal healer.

Granted, you did not say that "CC is fine in CO" as some have the annoying habit of saying, but you are pointing out two instances out of the entire game where it becomes borderline useful if everyone uses their brains.

Whilst those two instances are somewhat commendable, they do not solve the problem that the actual mechanic needs buffs (not nerfs like it's been eating for years...and the past couple of months).

The rest of content in CO is not like Cosmics...or TA. And generally speaking team game play is just horrible for CC, it is rare to have a team which knows how to interact with enemies when a CCer is around.

Most saying CC is fine in CO, completely advocate the use of stunlock builds or "overuse" of what was intended to be the weakest form of Crowd Control in CO, but has now become OP because of its mechanics.

So basically, CC isn't necessary or important, it has just become a convenient solution because so few people actually turn up to Cosmics because it can be argued that they have been over buffed and discourage people from turning up.

I don't get involved with the CC scene at Cosmics, because I feel that my playstyle, like EVERYONE ELSE'S (Tanking/Healing/Damage focus)...should be useful and viable as a focus in all game play and needs serious improvement at a core level, especially for team play.

As a CCer, your mechanic is so fragile that you have to actively rely on others not to f**k it up, regardless of how much you have geared/built towards your intended mechanic, your entire "usefulness" still depends on if someone decides to show up and troll or otherwise. Let's not forget that a real CCer's DPS is not going to be that high, so you are probably going to be adding stress to a Cosmic situation unless you are tanky enough to take care of yourself (Kiga) or have enough damage to balance out your presence (Mamasaurus)

I just don't want to log on and be like: "Yay! My main is merely a convenience (but is not rewarded) for two combat situations in CO (so long as everyone uses their brains)!"

That's a little bit of what I think about the whole situation.

Again, this is just my opinion as a player who mains CC and has done so for years. I know there are others out there who disagree and think its all fine and well, obviously they are being listened to so, there's not much more to discuss really.

aiqa

CC is useful for way more places than just two cosmic fights. You do of course have to accept you need to use stuns for most of the "in combat" CC, so please get over that already and start using those >10 second stuns. Yes sure the game is easy enough in most places that CC is not needed, but you can see that is being worked on. The devs claimed all future endgame will be harder than TA. And the only place where CC is traditionally not working at all is bossfights (though on alert made CC much better at them with the debuff specs), and that is exactly the "handcrafted" content where it is made useful now.

And of course you don't need a fully dedicated CC builds to use CC, just like you can also tank with a high health dps build, can dps with a build with a defensive passive, can heal with a CC build. There is overlap is lots of builds, but that doesn't mean a really dedicated tank doesn't do a much better job at tanking than a tanky dps build, or that a dedicated CC builds does a much better job then a healer with sleep for CCing qwyjibo's hearts.

I've seen qwyjibo fights just not start at all because there wasn't a CC person that wanted to join. That is how much people want you to use your CC build now. So start using it already.

pantagruel01

theravenforce said:

Because anyone can take a healer and grab a rank 3 Ego Sleep or another non damaging hold and apply it to Kiga's Dogs...or Qwyjibo's hearts...and still focus on their primary play style...which is healing.

It takes more than an R3 hold to be effective at CCing in cosmic content; the low end of practical CC durations is more than 50s and against the dogs you need a stun and a threat maintain as well.

theravenforce said:

Or if enough tanks show up people can simply tank dogs with a personal healer.

'One player can do the job of eight' is certainly an example of CC being effective.

theravenforce

For CC to be useful in all content...a number of things would have to happen (taken in part from my thread):

* Champions Online's Crowd Control System would need to go back to basics. This would include making sure all elements that were previously used to make the mechanic competitive were re-introduced back into the game. The most important one being "Variable Hold HP". This is the stuff which determines how much a held target can "take" before the Crowd Control effect is detonated by damage. Right now, Hold HP is static but magnitude can be increased with Manipulator (this is why holds appear to have longer duration when using Manipulator because they are 'eating' into target resistances by increasing their magnitude). The idea that CC could be competitive again is by no means popular and players in the past have come up with fantastical reasons why CC should stay "in its place" and years on here we are so, I guess you can draw your own conclusions from that.

* Mobs in Champions Online would have to work better. By this I mean, they'd have to be quite challenging but not so much that we all need teams but enough that the difficulty slider MEANS something. Whilst this seems to only apply as a reason against buffing Crowd Control (but not against SV one shotting DPS builds or high DPS builds existing currently...) it is something to take into consideration. If mobs remained as is, and Crowd Control operated at the power level it is supposed to (so on par with other mechanics)...CO would have the fun sucked out of it in combat. Mob difficulty would need to be increased accordingly and carefully so it doesn't become overwhelming but is at a respectable level of difficulty where CC is valuable.

* Attitudes to CC <- Mainly due to 'The Fear'. No, not Lily Allen's song, but I mean the fear of strong CC in team or solo PvP. That kinda needs to be abandoned completely. If a player gears for and specializes for high DPS.. be it in PvP or PvE, they are pretty much rewarded. However this isn't strictly the case with Crowd Control, because of many different limitations placed upon it for PvP (and in some cases) PvE situations. It would probably be best to evaluate how players currently make use of the counters in place to PvP Crowd Control. With the removal of constant/perma block breaking, CC in PvP will likely become a lot more manageable.

* Sources of Crowd Control: I had a conversation with a Developer in another game, NWO actually. Who said that the reason (back then) why NWO could get away with having Crowd Control which worked well in content was because the sources for Crowd Control were limited and could be easily "controlled for". The problem with vastly reducing sources of Crowd Control in CO is that melee characters need something to keep their targets in melee or set themselves up for further attacks. So that would be something to consider.

theravenforce

* Globally lowering the cool downs on Crowd Control related abilities. With the steady stream of "standardization" that Manipulator and Telepathy has been having in the past couple of months, you'd have to be quite dense to not see that focused game play with Manipulator has become less desirable. This is mostly due to the fact that CC abilities (which have been solidly defined now for Manipulator to control what procs it and what doesn't...thereby limiting choice to a degree), have cool downs ranging from 8-15 seconds. These were fine back when Manipulator had a 1 minute per stack duration and had no internal cool down for stack gain...but trying to make a non standard form (in terms of what it is aimed at) work like a damage or healing form, both of which are mostly lacking in cool downs...introduces problems. Problems which I feel are unlikely to be addressed because they are likely perceived as (now intended) downsides to trying to focus on Crowd Control.

* Looking at how Hold Resistance stacks work: Currently Hold Resistance stacks apply from every single source of CC there is (mostly) and stack to three (or 8) and then you are locked out. This mechanic has no internal cooldown and is instantly refreshed when CC is applied from any source. In my opinion, the only things in CO which should have knock or hold resistance are:

* Master Villains
* Other Champions (Players)
* Super Villains

Because those are threats closer to what players are so should have some resistance. Every other mob not listed either is immune to CC or simply does not need resistance stacks.

*Having a look at Higher Level targets AI: Updating them to have periods of extreme danger so that applying Specialized Crowd Control (so not a random tank with a lunge, but a dedicated CCer) effectively shuts them down and "saves" everyone within the instance.

* Controlling for PvP interactions: This would likely require a PvP pass in CO, which would probably entail making sure that CC abilities have a fixed duration of hard control in PvP but compensate this hefty change with significantly powerful debuffs which have effects which scale with Manipulator in PvP. Outside of PvP, CC goes back to the ideal.

In MY opinion, these would be a few important first steps to getting Crowd Control to where it should be.

Of course the age old counter point to all of this : "CC is fine in Champions Online and does not need to be stronger"

spinnytop

theravenforce said:

If mobs remained as is, and Crowd Control operated at the power level it is supposed to (so on par with other mechanics)...CO would have the fun sucked out of it in combat. Mob difficulty would need to be increased accordingly and carefully so it doesn't become overwhelming but is at a respectable level of difficulty where CC is valuable.

At least you understand why they can't buff CC yet. It is going to be a gradual process... which I guess means you'll have plenty of opportunities to complain that whatever latest improvement they've made to the situation is not enough. Just try to make sure that if one day we end up in a good place regarding CC you're still able to recognize that - I'm worried that we're going to get there but you'll refuse to acknowledge any progress due to criticizing the size of each individual step.

One thing you haven't really explained very well is this statement though:

theravenforce said:

I just don't want to log on and be like: "Yay! My main is merely a convenience (but is not rewarded) for two combat situations in CO (so long as everyone uses their brains)!"

and this one:

theravenforce said:

If a player gears for and specializes for high DPS.. be it in PvP or PvE, they are pretty much rewarded.

Could you elaborate on these two statements? How is a CCer not rewarded during Cosmics, either through direct game rewards or personal satisfaction. Also, how are DPS more rewarded in general content than a CCer is, both either through direct game rewards or personal satisfaction?

I mean as far as I know I always get the same rewards as other people when I CC in cosmics or even in other content - the game never tells me "oh hey a CCer, you get less rewards than that guy with Epidemic". I also don't feel any diminished satisfaction, especially not in Cosmics where I have an entire group of people's efforts being held up by my ability to hold a group of NPCs that could slaughter the entire group should I fail. In other content where my CC may not be super needed I still feel pretty great about my ability to completely disrupt the mobs' ability to mount any sort of meaningful offense even if I'm not perma-holding any of them, and the fact that I'm causing folks to deal (sometimes greatly) increased damage against them. There's also the fact that more often than not I'm the only one of my kind there so I get to be the cool unique person standing out in a sea of dpsers. Maybe I'm just dumb and I'm not noticing the part where I'm being shorted in some way.

pantagruel01

theravenforce said:

The most important one being "Variable Hold HP".

Variable hold HP is only important if you think it should be useful to hold a target you're planning to attack. I'd just change all holds intended to be used for that sort of purpose as stuns, and accept that the purpose of paralyze is to prevent a foe from bothering you while you do something else.

theravenforce said:

Mobs in Champions Online would have to work better.

Simply multiply the damage and hp of mobs by 3 and some types of CC become valuable with zero changes to mechanics (single-target CC remains useless).

theravenforce said:

Attitudes to CC <- Mainly due to 'The Fear'. No, not Lily Allen's song, but I mean the fear of strong CC in team or solo PvP. That kinda needs to be abandoned completely.</p>

Devs do not have the ability to change player beliefs. Just realize that CCing a player is way more valuable than CCing a trash mob, and adjust CC so it works better on NPCs than on PCs.

aiqa

The whole hold hp argument is meaningless once you accept that stuns are your in-combat CC, paralyzes is your CC for targets that make take a stray hit but should be mostly kept out of combat, and sleep is your CC for targets that you are sure will not get hit at all.

theravenforce

spinnytop said:

At least you understand why they can't buff CC yet. It is going to be a gradual process... which I guess means you'll have plenty of opportunities to complain that whatever latest improvement they've made to the situation is not enough. Just try to make sure that if one day we end up in a good place regarding CC you're still able to recognize that - I'm worried that we're going to get there but you'll refuse to acknowledge any progress due to criticizing the size of each individual step.

What a number of people don't realize (because they don't read) is that I do actually see the other side of the argument, mostly because I've taken a look at it and yes, there is merit to it. I've also never stated that mobs should remain as they are permanently and CC get buffed to appropriate levels so it is on par with other mechanics.

You don't need to be concerned about my criticisms. They come from the fact that I've been on the CC scene in CO long enough to become frankly quite bitter/salty about how the mechanic has been marginalized or 'made worse' over time.

I just don't believe that having two endgame instances where CC is convenient to use cause less people are showing up because they have been discouraged from doing so (through reasons I'm sure they are happy to state) = "Yay. CC is saved/uber useful now!"

Do I think it is progress? Somewhat. I never said it wasn't, to be fair. I only gave my opinion.

It is clear opinions on this topic differ but that's bound to happen with most topics.

In my eyes, CO should have gotten CC to where it should be at the same time/ soon after it realized where 'trinity' (if it has to be referred to that way) abilities are in CO.

It is unfortunate that I see a set that I use and a mechanic that I use predominantly get worse / more difficult to use, for no stated reason and save for a few others, I seem to be the only one who actually sees it. Hence the "nutjob" cracks all over the place.

Me complaining about something will only happen if there is legitimately something to complain about. Much to the relief of most, I actually haven't gone out of my way to make mass posts or threads on Crowd Control lately. I merely comment on some of them and sometimes (unfortunately) it devolves into personal attacks which are never fun.

spinnytop said:

One thing you haven't really explained very well is this statement though:

theravenforce said:

I just don't want to log on and be like: "Yay! My main is merely a convenience (but is not rewarded) for two combat situations in CO (so long as everyone uses their brains)!"

I have a main character, who just happens to be a user of Telepathy and Crowd Control, which apparently is an unfortunate combination but that's intended it seems so we can skip over the salt there.

The statement should speak for itself really. I did use "I", not "We", it is a statement of personal opinion based on how I feel about the topic being discussed.

I'd like to personally feel useful in all forms of content, but right now that is not a reality and cannot be one. I've accepted that a looong time ago, which is why I solo what I can on my main.

I'll say this again since it doesn't seem to be clear enough: "Just because I do not find high levels of enjoyment in CCing a side objective in cosmic situations does not mean others are now incapable of finding enjoyment in CCing side objectives, nor does this mean that it is not useful because of the lower number of players turning up for Cosmic content, means that CC has become 'useful'."

spinnytop said:

and this one:

theravenforce said:

If a player gears for and specializes for high DPS.. be it in PvP or PvE, they are pretty much rewarded.

Could you elaborate on these two statements? Also, how are DPS more rewarded in general content than a CCer is, both either through direct game rewards or personal satisfaction?

I am going to assume that your main is a DPS of sorts. If I am wrong then I apologize, just replace the idea of your main with a character of yours that is dedicated to DPS.

I could be wrong but I don't think there are many instances left where DPS will net you higher rewards in game, nor did I state that anywhere for you to imply it.

Back on track, when you are dealing damage to a target (player or NPC), do you encounter something like this?

[Damage Resistance Stacks] - One application of damage (tap/charge/maintain) from any source will grant the target a stack of Damage Resistance. Damage Resistance stacks grant the target 100% Damage Resistance which reduces incoming damage by roughly 50%. After three applications of damage (tap/charge/maintain) from any source, a target will gain Damage Immunity, rendering them immune to all incoming damage for 15 seconds. Damage source is not player specific. Damage Resistance stacks apply to the following types of enemies: Henchmen, Villain, Enforcer, Master Villain, Other Champions (Players), Super Villains, Legendary & Cosmic Ranked foes.

Once you've answered that question, tell me how frustrating it would be if such a mechanic existed.

Would your personal level of enjoyment playing your DPS increase or decrease?

If there was a counter mechanic to this that was innate with DPS powers which made the stacks of Damage Resistance take a longer time to proc on targets...and you decided to invest in it and were rewarded...would that increase or decrease your level of personal enjoyment?

Now let's run with this a little further and say that your investment in the innate mechanic which caused Damage Resistance stacks to take a longer time to proc was frozen, so your investment meant quite little....would your personal satisfaction increase or decrease?


--

Now that's obviously a silly example as there is no need to impair everyone's DPSing fun so they play like CCers in team content where everyone is doing their own thing.

But in terms of personal enjoyment...I would say that DPS is universally useful in content and I'm not saying it shouldn't be. I like seeing DPS characters in action and I have a few of my own which sort of break into the DPS category.

I feel as if Crowd Control should be the same way and it isn't. At this moment in time, as I type this, there's nothing (that I am aware of) to suggest that there are positive changes to Crowd Control happening any time soon. As ever I am VERY happy to be proved wrong but when I look at the recent decisions made, those with reasons given and the others without any reason, I have to draw my own conclusions, just like everyone else.

I'd be much more inclined to do what ya'll are trying to tell me and just "Shut the f**k up and CC something" if the mechanic received appropriate buffs and operated on a good level.

From where I'm sitting I don't see that yet, so unfortunately for those who are tired AF of hearing them, I'll continue to throw my opinions on whatever is happening until CC gets better.

It is far from the only thing I care about in CO, but it is one of the things I care about the most in relation to CO.

pantagruel01

theravenforce said:

But in terms of personal enjoyment...I would say that DPS is universally useful in content and I'm not saying it shouldn't be. I like seeing DPS characters in action and I have a few of my own which sort of break into the DPS category.

I feel as if Crowd Control should be the same way and it isn't.

There is a fundamental reason why it can't be, the way the game is structured now.

Quite simply, CC is a defensive tactic, and defense is irrelevant almost everywhere in the game. Now, CC could be a better defensive tactic than it currently is, but the best you can hope for is 'as useful as a healer' -- which isn't very.

theravenforce

Because we already discussed a few of the points you brought up...I'm just gonna focus on this stuff here.

pantagruel01 said:

Devs do not have the ability to change player beliefs.

"Waaa! X and Y are constantly stomped on and Devs hate them!" <- Player 2's Belief

*New Patch Notes which buff and add multiple powers to X and positively adjust Y mechanic* <-- Evidence which challenges the belief system of Player 2 in relation to said topic(s)

"Oh. I guess they don't actually hate them at all! Wooow!" <-- Belief (despite being solidified or even if it is fragile) is adjusted based on recent events/developments. Player 2 then goes off and feels better because X and Y are where they should be and are ready to face new and stronger threats which the developers may be cooking up.

In a way, they do.

The example above is incredibly reductionist and does not account for the sheer amount of work required to accomplish whatever may be behind improving X and Y but you get the idea.

But in the way that "Players hate CC in PvP" of course not. They cannot win by catering to the minority when it comes to CC and they may not see the need to further nerf CC in PvP, so the solution is to leave it alone.

theravenforce

aiqa said:

The whole hold hp argument is meaningless once you accept that stuns are your in-combat CC, paralyzes is your CC for targets that make take a stray hit but should be mostly kept out of combat, and sleep is your CC for targets that you are sure will not get hit at all.

Stuns have no hold HP for a reason, they were never actually meant to be a primary source of CC, they were meant as short duration. Which is why they are all over the place.

Paralyzes have Hold HP, because they were designed to keep targets locked down even whilst under fire...to a point. This point has been frozen and the level of damage has increased which means paralyzes are less useful because the mechanic required to be competitive does not vary like damage does.

Hold HP is there to make sure that with the amount of AoE powers that are out there, if my CC'd target happens (through my own error or being knocked towards the group accidentally by another player) to be damaged, the hold still stays mostly intact instead of dropping at a very fast rate meaning that the target(s) I didn't want to react whilst under attack (aggro'd) remains that way.

Hold HP is also part of 'The Fear'.

EDIT: Just realized this thread is marked as "Answered"

aiqa

And stuns have a far longer duration then in the past so they actually are a great primary CC now, so start using what is available to you. One of the best stuns in the game is in the mentalist framework, so you can easily use it and be in theme and be very effective.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

spinnytop

gradii said:

TK maelstrom is not "In theme" for a telepath

In your opinion sure, for others it may be. You don't get to decide if other people are adhering to their theme.

sigmaseven0

1. The this thread has answered my question, but I'm hesitant to mark it as answered and thus kill the discussion.
2. I must confess that I have been playing Wildstar since march. I like how if you use CC to interrupt a charged or maintained power the target takes bonus damage. The new "break through" mechanic reminds me of this and I cant help but wonder if something like this could do CO some good. I'm not sure if we shroud just discuss this here or should I make a new thread about it.
2. @spinnytop telepathy and telekenisis are to separate phenomenon. gradii is correct. They are both psychic ability's but distinct. Similarly, controlling fire and ice are distinct despite both falling under the umbrella of elemental manipulation.

spinnytop

sigmaseven0 said:

2. @spinnytop telepathy and telekenisis are to separate phenomenon. gradii is correct. They are both psychic ability's but distinct. Similarly, controlling fire and ice are distinct despite both falling under the umbrella of elemental manipulation.

In your opinion sure. You don't get to decide if other people are adhering to their theme.

sigmaseven0

sigh...
Telepathy: (from the Greek τῆλε, tele meaning "distant" and πάθος, pathos or -patheia meaning "feeling, perception, passion, affliction, experience")[1][2] is the purported transmission of information from one person to another without using any of our known sensory channels or physical interaction. The term was coined in 1882 by the classical scholar Frederic W. H. Myers,[3] a founder of the Society for Psychical Research,[4] and has remained more popular than the earlier expression thought-transference.

Psychokinesis: (from Greek ψυχή "mind" and κίνησις "movement"[1][2]), or telekinesis[3] (from τῆλε "far off" and κίνησις "movement"[4]), is an alleged psychic ability allowing a person to influence a physical system without physical interaction

They are not the same thing.
This is a matter of definition and language not opinion. I am not saying that you cant make a theme that accommodates both (general psychic), but if your theme is to make a pure telepath, then telekinesis is not an option. Now, if you understand that we are talking about 2 separate things and just want to engage in forum pvp, that's fine. If you want to suggest that ppl RP that the rocks in tk maelstrom are not "real" and only exist in the mind (despite the damage type ) of the target to make the power not theme breaking, that's fine. If you think telepathy and telekinesis are the same thing, or that the definition of these words are a matter of opinion, then I (no one) can't help you.

I'm not going to waste any more time on this, and can't help but feel that Ive been trolled into stating the obvious. SMH...

reiwulf

we already have a telepath AT, the mind. we still need a Telekinetik AT though. I'm still waiting eagerly for it. with telekinetic beams, levitation, bubble enclose telekinetik shield,etc...

spinnytop

sigmaseven0 said:

sigh...
I'm not going to waste any more time on this, and can't help but feel that Ive been trolled into stating the obvious. SMH...

You wasted your time the entire time. If I or anyone else decide that TK Maelstrom fits our Telapathy theme then you get no say in the matter.