It is. And that means I've been reading the Powers window wrong for the past four years. Yeesh. Still, learn something new everyday....
Yup, the advantages are all optional and don't kick in until you specifically select them. The word stew above "show advanced description" gives some generic info about the power before listing off the advantages available for it. Generally, I find it less confusing to just skip down to "show advanced description" where the useful info is--damage values, range, cost, cooldown, cast/maintain time, secondary effects, etc.
(Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
It's true! The powers window shows you a bunch of information about what you could potentially have on that power!
Thank you for pointing that out (repetition never hurts!).
I like what they've done to the AT powers window (at least, the one you get when you press P) but I would rather it showed me what powers and advantages I have, first up, rather than ones I can have. I have to click "Train" to be able to purchase these advantages/powers, so there's not much point on having them there on show...
(PS - my idiocy over CS/CC aside, the Marksman still pulls a little too much aggro in Alerts for its own good - it wouldn't be the ideal choice for a new player, so maybe it might be best to swap it out for new Silvers?
There's also a general point here about explanation and tutorial. I always think things can't be explained clearly enough and Ravenswood Academy would be the perfect place for a few basic explanatory videos at low level - ones about blocking, devices, aggro and running yr first Grab Alert would be good).
If you find yourself pulling too much aggro on a certain character, just attack less? Managing your own threat isn't a new concept. Just sit and block for a while instead of attacking, or attack adds on a boss.
The Dunning-Kreuger effect isn't, either. People who don't know what they don't know overestimate their own abilities and do things which, to those that do know, appear unwise. The Marksman AT is not a good fit for those in the classic D-K profile - newbies - because it allows the player to dig themselves a massive hole (aggroing 5-10 opponents at a time) - but leaves them no way to resolve the issue, as it's meant to be a sniper character and has very poor durability when surrounded by enemies at close range. And since when was "don't attack" a viable strategy in a grab alert? You'll get reported for leeching.
The problem with the Marksman AT, other than archery being generally poor, is that it gets Torrent of Arrows at level 11 -- and a 100' cone is an excellent way to hit things you don't really want to hit. Simply swapping Torrent of Arrows (level 11) and Storm of Arrows (level 35 choice; powers are the same tier) would help a lot with that.
The Dunning-Kreuger effect isn't, either. People who don't know what they don't know overestimate their own abilities and do things which, to those that do know, appear unwise. The Marksman AT is not a good fit for those in the classic D-K profile - newbies - because it allows the player to dig themselves a massive hole (aggroing 5-10 opponents at a time) - but leaves them no way to resolve the issue, as it's meant to be a sniper character and has very poor durability when surrounded by enemies at close range. And since when was "don't attack" a viable strategy in a grab alert? You'll get reported for leeching.
Clearly Mr. Smackwell didn't mean "spend the entire alert not attacking" and it would be ludicrous to assume as such. It would also be pretty silly to claim that you'll get reported for leeching because you block while being pounded on by several NPCs.
Simple solution: DPS a single target at a time, and don't start attacking until someone else has aggro'd the group. Is this even remotely a new concept in MMOs? No. Not even slightly. You'd be making a very insulting statement about the average player if you claimed that they could not come to this conclusion on their own fairly quickly.
Yes, players have plenty of opportunites to screw up, get themselves in a bad situation, and get killed. They also get unlimited opportunities to do this thanks to the fact that you don't actually get killed - you just get teleported over to the nearest respawn point and you get to go and try again. Sure, maybe the player goes back to the same spot and does the exact same thing again, with the same result. Well, that wasn't a very good decision was it? I'm sure by this point the majority of people start thinking "what can I do differently?" and then put that thought into action. I know that I faced some moments like that when I was playing archetypes, and it was very satisfying to me when I figured out how to succeed in those situations just by using the tools given to me as an archetype. Am I bragging when I say this? Only if whoever is reading this thinks that succeeding in this game is an impressive achievement. I don't.
Basically, a lot of it boils down to the player and their approach to solving these problems. I think there are some people who have gotten used to the very heavy usage of hand holding in some modern games. I think it would be fine if they added some missions that gently prod players into thinking out of the "dps, mitigation, healing" box though, but at the same time I think people should have the freedom to figure some of it out themselves and in the process develop a personal style. I mean shoot, you guys see how much fun I have with the concept that I'm beating things in a different way than other people.
I don't have problems in alerts since I'm part of a team and I can rely of them to help. I remember I had lots of trouble though as an inferno AT when soloing quests. sometimes I had 5 mobs on me and I couldn't kill them fast enough to survive. but that was years ago, maybe they have changed some things already.
The problem with the Marksman AT, other than archery being generally poor, is that it gets Torrent of Arrows at level 11 -- and a 100' cone is an excellent way to hit things you don't really want to hit. Simply swapping Torrent of Arrows (level 11) and Storm of Arrows (level 35 choice; powers are the same tier) would help a lot with that.
That's entirely true, did that when I built an FF Archer, made a huge difference (the part of Storm of Arrows which roots enemies is much more practical for a low level toon in an Alert as it maintains a nice distance).
Spinnytop - that's nice what-I-reckonry, and we love your ability to throw yourself a parade, but really experienced players aren't the best judges of these things.
I don't have problems in alerts since I'm part of a team and I can rely of them to help. I remember I had lots of trouble though as an inferno AT when soloing quests. sometimes I had 5 mobs on me and I couldn't kill them fast enough to survive. but that was years ago, maybe they have changed some things already.
yes, things have certainly changed. Now you would turn those 5 mobs into dust. Back then you might have to turn one or two into dust, run off and recover, then come back and finish the job. Inferno has always melted things at crazy speed - ever since On Alert it evaporates them.
Spinnytop - that's nice what-I-reckonry, and we love your ability to throw yourself a parade, but really experienced players aren't the best judges of these things.
We actually are, because not only do we know what it's like once you're good at the game, we also remember what it was like before we were good at the game. We have a more complete picture of the situation. Folks who haven't figured things out may have some very warped perceptions about the game - not getting past these perceptions is what leads to the "If I can't do it, it's impossible and unfair" mentality.
If you think my ability to beat quest mobs is reason to "throw a parade", then I think I have a very clear picture of your mentality in this game. You didn't ask but I'll tell you anyway: I don't.
The Dunning-Kreuger effect isn't, either. People who don't know what they don't know overestimate their own abilities and do things which, to those that do know, appear unwise. The Marksman AT is not a good fit for those in the classic D-K profile - newbies - because it allows the player to dig themselves a massive hole (aggroing 5-10 opponents at a time) - but leaves them no way to resolve the issue, as it's meant to be a sniper character and has very poor durability when surrounded by enemies at close range. And since when was "don't attack" a viable strategy in a grab alert? You'll get reported for leeching.
This whole thing basically functions on the assumption that players don't have the capacity to learn from their own experiences. I mean, I have to ask, does the Archetype control the player, or does the player control the Archetype?
Do you have the option to not aggro 5-10 opponents at a time? Could you self-mitigate by waiting for your friends to attack first? Could you skip this attack and just attack one dude? Could you just snipe the one guy that's being attacked by someone who has already pulled a bunch of threat?
I dunno what this "people who don't know what they don't know (what does this redundancy even mean?) overestimate their own abilities and do things..." What?
I don't get this. To me, it's as simple as this. I snapped a sniper rifle at this guy two times. The third time I snapped it, the guy got mad at me and came to hit me.
Logic, not "Dunning-Kreuger", tells me that if I snap a Sniper Rifle three times, I get aggro. Reason tells me that if I don't want to get my **** chewed on, I should not use Sniper Rifle three times. Use your smaller attacks. Use some AoEs. I'm sure you don't have just one big SNIPER RIFLE button on the middle of your screen. Unless your team is absolutely counting on you to use that Sniper Rifle three times or the whole thing is a bust, I don't think it's necessary.
Dial your DPS back or expect to chew floor, and be ready to accept it as your own fault. I do! I'm the dumb type of player that just attacks til they're dead, and then I get back up and do it again. If I gave a crap about not chewing floor? I'd not use my best attacks all the time whenever they're on cooldown. If I wanted to stay alive, I'd hitch a ride on my energy builder. Nobody is gonna report you for that and if they did? Nothing would happen. We barely have GMs, and when we do, they don't go mental on the most trivial of issues.
Oh, it's a real thing. Doesn't really apply to this situation as much as magpie seems to think, though. It's more about how the truly inept are unaware of it, not normal learning curves for the average person.
Oh, it's a real thing. Doesn't really apply to this situation as much as magpie seems to think, though. It's more about how the truly inept are unaware of it, not normal learning curves for the average person.
We actually are, because not only do we know what it's like once you're good at the game, we also remember what it was like before we were good at the game. We have a more complete picture of the situation.
Their research also suggests corollaries: highly skilled individuals may underestimate their relative competence and may erroneously assume that tasks which are easy for them are also easy for others.[1]
Be flattered by that, btw.
Folks who haven't figured things out may have some very warped perceptions about the game - not getting past these perceptions is what leads to the "If I can't do it, it's impossible and unfair" mentality.
Yup. It's always a problem. People don't learn if they don't make mistakes, but they get frustrated about making mistakes. Keeping them interested and having a "yes we can" attitude is a balancing act and sometimes CO fails on that score. The huge number of players who drop out around level 9-15 shows that.
I know you want stuff to be tough, but sometimes this game is just uneven and incomprehensible - dying and respawning's OK if you learnt something, it's not if you have no idea what just killed you. Again, and again, and again. The point here is that some of the silver ATs and their power development aren't the best for new/emerging players - they're a bit like giving a learner driver the keys to a sports car and telling them to do a fast lap of the track. Some will work it out, most will end up in a ditch. Marksman, Inferno, Soldier ATs all have the capacity to crash and burn really quickly... if they're the advert for the paying game then maybe Silver ATs need to be something slightly more sympathetic-but-limited?
So here is a video of me playing a Soldier fresh out of the powerhouse just gunning down stuff like a savage. If anyone can point out where I am Dunning and Krugering in this then I will happily make more videos so everyone can do Dunning and Krugering as well \owo/
If you have another level range or encounter you would like to see me destroy with my godly amounts of skill, talent, good looks, and mind controlling pheremones, then lemme know!
people who don't know what they don't know (what does this redundancy even mean?)
Meta-knowledge, knowledge about knowledge.
Let's say you have two men who don't know the capitol of Alaska. You ask both of them what the capitol of Alaska is. The first says “I don't know.” The second says “Nome.” Neither man knows the answer. But the first man knows that he doesn't know. While the second man doesn't know that he doesn't know the answer.
“It ain't what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain’t so.”
On the flip side, consider two detectives trying to solve a murder. One of them has a clear enough understanding of the case to ask the right questions. The other must grope blindly. Neither of them knows whodunit, but they are by no means on equal footing.
“Knowing what you don't know,” that is, determining the size and shape of one's own ignorance, is a vital step in the learning process. Hard to fill in gaps if you don't know where those gaps are.
One example would be people who don't know much about a game and what they do know is largely incorrect, but think they know a lot about how to play that game correctly. Another might be new players who have only learned a very small amount but have convinced themselves that they've already learned everything. Both of these players would likely encounter a lot of artificial difficulty due to their lack of realization that they don't know the things they need to know.
I think Mr. Smackwell is correct in assuming however that most people don't end up in these states, as the Dunning-Kruger effect generally tends to be talking about people at the very highest and lowest ends of the competency spectrum, and then not even everyone in those demographics. There are very incompetent people who realize they are thus and just don't particularly care about raising their level of competency, just as there are highly skilled people who are aware of their high level of skill but still have the ability to recognize when they are engaging in very low skill activities.
After all just because someone who is a genius at puzzles manages to figure out how the toy in the picture below works doesn't mean said toy is suddenly considered a difficult puzzle, and they're probably very likely to realize that.
as the Dunning-Kruger effect generally tends to be talking about people at the very highest and lowest ends of the competency spectrum, and then not even everyone in those demographics
There's no universal rule. The main observation I would make about you as a player, Spinny - and it's not rude - is that you seem to be good at handling both difficulty and complexity. You know lots about the game, and you can't unlearn that. So even if you take a noob level AT for a spin, as your vids show, you'll walk it, because you know what to do and the right time to do it. You've worked out all the kinks in the UI and the tells the villians make and - boom! - it's easy. And that's great.
Thing is, though. CO is a broad gaming church. Many games cater for this by having effective difficulty and level sliders; so you might get Normal, Hard, Elite, Hardcore.... and also get Casual, in quite a few. What Casual does is to maintain normal difficulty - the strength of the enemies, how fast they are - and reduce complexity. The player says to the game "I don't care about that stuff, make some decisions for me, I just want to play for fun". Hulk Smash! And that's great too.
So for me, Silver ATs should be the Casual level of the game; fun to play, well chosen powers, and not too much thinking about mechanics needed. A good player with an understanding of things like threat will still take them far - but less involved players aren't going to get mangled by things they don't know/don't care about. Some of the power choices on ATs like the Marksman and Inferno aren't those good choices I mentioned earlier - why give a lvl14 character the ability to aggro half the Alert map, or insist their best attack involves charging a squishy headlong into a melee? By all means beef up enemy difficulty to compensate but give people a break. A lot of people are playing this game for laughs (which is why I'm currently playing a Rockstar AT...)
There's no universal rule. The main observation I would make about you as a player, Spinny - and it's not rude - is that you seem to be good at handling both difficulty and complexity. You know lots about the game, and you can't unlearn that. So even if you take a noob level AT for a spin, as your vids show, you'll walk it, because you know what to do and the right time to do it. You've worked out all the kinks in the UI and the tells the villians make and - boom! - it's easy. And that's great.
Well we have a great opportunity here. You can show in the video exactly where I am doing these difficult things and having an easy time of it. You can even give time stamps so that people can see specific examples of how this content is actually difficult and what I am doing that is making it easy. I'm actually really eager to see what you're going to do with that and how you're going to show that in a video where I think I'm just running around mindlessly aoeing things I am actually being a highly skilled player. This should be great!
You can show in the video exactly where I am doing these difficult things and having an easy time of it.
The big things you're doing that a novice will have trouble with is
Attacking while moving. Default keybinds actually make that somewhat hard.
Making use of line of sight to only deal with one or two foes at a time.
Kiting melee villains.
Making use of line of sight to interrupt charges and maintains.
None of those things are particularly unique to CO (other than, maybe, 4 because of the glitchy way CO handles losing LoS) or represent uniquely high level play, but they aren't novice either.
Well now we're going in the other direction aren't we? This novice who doesn't know about keybinds or the fact that they can move around to make enemy attacks less effective falls on the end of the spectrum where their lack of knowledge means that they're seeing challenge that isn't there. Since I know that you can change your keybinds ( my two attacks in the video are on my mouse buttons ), and since I grasp the basic concept that enemy attacks have range and that they need to see you to use attacks on you, I actually have a much clearer picture of what the challenge level of the content really is. It's like people who play a Dark Souls game for the first time and don't know that you can dodge, or block, or lock on to enemies - to them the game seems like a monstrously difficult venture bordering on the impossible.
Also we're running into that problem again where not all novices are created equal. A novice to CO, a novice to MMOs, and a novice to video games in general are three very different people. That's fine though since novices aren't the issue. The question here isn't how am I different from a novice, the question is am I doing things in such a highly skilled way that it makes the content seem easier than it actually is. As you said, 'changing keybinds' and 'moving while attacking' don't really qualify as high level play, so they couldn't be the cause of this sort of effect. Yes you have shown why a new player unfamiliar with basic game concepts might have issues, but you haven't shown where in the video I am doing challenging content that only seems easy because of the highly skilled way that I am approaching it. If I'm having an easy time just because I'm using basic tactics like movement and LOS, and basic features like changing keybinds, then that doesn't really qualify as something that would blur my ability to tell if something is easy or not. These were things I did almost immediately the first time I started playing CO, back when I was a novice.
Well now we're going in the other direction aren't we? This novice who doesn't know about keybinds or the fact that they can move around to make enemy attacks less effective falls on the end of the spectrum where their lack of knowledge means that they're seeing challenge that isn't there.
Well, bear in mind that at higher levels you actually don't need to know any of that stuff to trivialize content, so it's legit to say low levels are more challenging than high levels.
Well, bear in mind that at higher levels you actually don't need to know any of that stuff to trivialize content, so it's legit to say low levels are more challenging than high levels.
Okay, can you point out that challenging content in the video? I'm looking for specifics here, not generalizations. The argument is being made here that what I showed in the video is more difficult than say cosmics or TA or rampages or any of the other stuff that you would do at a high level, and I'm wondering where specifically people are seeing that in the actual content. Even outside of those types of content, what I remember of my Soldier AT when I was leveling it way back when at level 10 I was mowing things down with SMG... at level 35 I was mowing things down with SMG. The game doesn't get easier, it starts easy and stays there until you hit endgame content.
Okay, can you point out that challenging content in the video?
Sure. Let's say you hadn't done any of your kiting: instead, you just stood at the door blazing away with SMG or something.
You would probably have been defeated. Do the same thing in a level 35 mission and you'll probably win. Now, you can argue that this is because the high level game is ridiculously easy. I'd probably agree. That still leaves a weird challenge gap between low and high level content.
There's no universal rule. The main observation I would make about you as a player, Spinny - and it's not rude - is that you seem to be good at handling both difficulty and complexity. You know lots about the game, and you can't unlearn that. So even if you take a noob level AT for a spin, as your vids show, you'll walk it, because you know what to do and the right time to do it. You've worked out all the kinks in the UI and the tells the villians make and - boom! - it's easy. And that's great.
Well we have a great opportunity here. You can show in the video exactly where I am doing these difficult things and having an easy time of it. You can even give time stamps so that people can see specific examples of how this content is actually difficult and what I am doing that is making it easy. I'm actually really eager to see what you're going to do with that and how you're going to show that in a video where I think I'm just running around mindlessly aoeing things I am actually being a highly skilled player. This should be great!
To be fair, wasn't he talking about a low level player on an archetype pulling too much aggro during Grab Alerts? Inferno or Marksman or something?
You're going around and hitting mobs your level, anyone can do that. Take a level low-level character that pulls mad aggro with AoE effects into a Grab Alert, and make a video showing you can survive that.
The name of the thread is: POLL: ARCHETYPE SOLO DIFFICULTY
That's what I've been talking about, so that's what I made videos of. Folks tried to say that low level content is hard, then tried to say I don't get to have an opinion cause I'm good at the game. Yeah, someone brought up aggro and group content at some point.
If you want a video of me showing how easy alerts are on my low level soldier, I'll happily do that next. I have to ask though, why the stipulation that I try to pull a lot of aggro? Is that something low level ATs have to do for the alert to successfully complete?
You would probably have been defeated. Do the same thing in a level 35 mission and you'll probably win. Now, you can argue that this is because the high level game is ridiculously easy. I'd probably agree. That still leaves a weird challenge gap between low and high level content.
I have a video of me doing another mission where I just stand there and mow things down without moving much. I'll upload that next.
I don't think expecting people to move around a bit in combat, considering one of the big deals about this game is travel powers in combat, is expecting very much of people however.
I'm just saying, that's what the guy you're currently talking to was complaining about, and you're showing him videos of clearing street mobs and saying "see, there's nothing wrong!" He needs a lesson in managing alert aggro, not clearing out easy mobs. Sure, he may be off topic, but the conversation won't go anywhere between you two because you're talking about different things. If you're only interested in staying strictly on topic, you might want to not point your videos at him.
take your AT for a spin in whiteout or fatal error ASAP. I know you can do it! You might die a few times... or a lot, but use every trick and devices you can get your hands on! That I think would be a good(& challenging) test for an AT.
Keep in mind the game does recommend a team for those missions, so if your AT can't do it alone at first...just come back later and try it again!
I'm just saying, that's what the guy you're currently talking to was complaining about, and you're showing him videos of clearing street mobs and saying "see, there's nothing wrong!" He needs a lesson in managing alert aggro, not clearing out easy mobs.
Okay, I'll post a video of me tomorrow using single target attacks in an alert and blocking if the one mob I'm attacking gets aggro on me. Unless someone has an argument for why that would be too advanced a tactic for a newer player to ever think of? Don't worry Biff, I know you think that's silly because you yourself said that someone should be able to figure that out after their first attempt at wildly spraying aoe all over the place sends them to the pavement. I'm just wondering if he's going to call it as a foul under the assumption that all new players will stubbornly continue to spam aoes even though it gets them killed repeatedly - if he does I have my response already: dumb people failing at something doesn't mean that something is hard, it just means those people are dumb. After all, I never said that players can survive their own stubborn stupidity, just that being a low level archetype ( or archetype of any level ) is not the horror of difficulty that some people try to paint it as. The archetype doesn't "crash and burn", the player does.
You guys were mixing two different arguments together. No need to really make that video, unless you want to annotate it for like the most beginner of beginners with a bunch of "dos and don'ts". I mean, that might actually be helpful to some people, but I doubt many really would benefit from it.
I dunno, do whatever. Just the road you two were going down was never gonna end.
I'm not going to annotate your videos for you, Spinny. I'm not actually watching them. What you're doing here is spamming questions and demanding responses in the hope of tiring other people out and making them stop disagreeing with you. I'm familiar with the strategy and I'm not playing. You can shout "what's difficult about Purple Reign, look I'll show you" as much as you want; but every day in Zone you'll find people who can't figure it out. And they're not all Allerix (whose incompetence is deeply charming).
Archetype solo difficulty, anyway.
Silver ATs - For casual and new players and those not familiar with Vintage MMO mechanics: Possibly too hard, first up. Too many things to think about, not enough explanation in-game, and some poor power choices, esp. in Alerts. Swap Torrent of Arrows for Storm of Arrows on the Marksman and Flashfire for Conflagration on the Inferno and we'd have more fun with those.
For experienced players: Some of them are quite well built and fun to play, close to "what I'd build if I made this as a freeform" - I like the Master, the Void, the Scourge, the Icicle, espec. Some of them I find a bit dull and don't run them past 30. The Glacier, for example - runs out of energy so often that every fight becomes tedious. The Rockstar - power progression between 18 and 40 is 21 - Self Heal (not great, tbh), 25 - EB, 30 - Block, 35 - Active Offense. That's 22 levels between Annihilate (17) and Unleashed Rage (40). Uber-snooze. There's also the problem with final powers at 40, which is "I've got all my powers and nothing much do to with them". To make them more fun to play I'd make all ATs have the full power set by level 35; Premium (purchased ones) might get an extra slot at 38 for lockbox/unlockable powers. That way you'd have a good set of powers (fun!), content to play it with (Rampages, levelling up level 35-40), stuff to add on (gear) and still have a reason to go Freeform (more powers, power choices, roles, and better durability for endgame).
Otherwise... I wish they'd do something with the difficulty slider so that you can make a decent choice of challenge. At the moment "Elite" doesn't mean anywhere near it. That has to be addressed sometime soon...
Comments
It is. And that means I've been reading the Powers window wrong for the past four years. Yeesh. Still, learn something new everyday....
Just figured we might as well have another person say that again.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Thank you for pointing that out (repetition never hurts!).
I like what they've done to the AT powers window (at least, the one you get when you press P) but I would rather it showed me what powers and advantages I have, first up, rather than ones I can have. I have to click "Train" to be able to purchase these advantages/powers, so there's not much point on having them there on show...
(PS - my idiocy over CS/CC aside, the Marksman still pulls a little too much aggro in Alerts for its own good - it wouldn't be the ideal choice for a new player, so maybe it might be best to swap it out for new Silvers?
There's also a general point here about explanation and tutorial. I always think things can't be explained clearly enough and Ravenswood Academy would be the perfect place for a few basic explanatory videos at low level - ones about blocking, devices, aggro and running yr first Grab Alert would be good).
The Dunning-Kreuger effect isn't, either. People who don't know what they don't know overestimate their own abilities and do things which, to those that do know, appear unwise. The Marksman AT is not a good fit for those in the classic D-K profile - newbies - because it allows the player to dig themselves a massive hole (aggroing 5-10 opponents at a time) - but leaves them no way to resolve the issue, as it's meant to be a sniper character and has very poor durability when surrounded by enemies at close range. And since when was "don't attack" a viable strategy in a grab alert? You'll get reported for leeching.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Simple solution: DPS a single target at a time, and don't start attacking until someone else has aggro'd the group. Is this even remotely a new concept in MMOs? No. Not even slightly. You'd be making a very insulting statement about the average player if you claimed that they could not come to this conclusion on their own fairly quickly.
Yes, players have plenty of opportunites to screw up, get themselves in a bad situation, and get killed. They also get unlimited opportunities to do this thanks to the fact that you don't actually get killed - you just get teleported over to the nearest respawn point and you get to go and try again. Sure, maybe the player goes back to the same spot and does the exact same thing again, with the same result. Well, that wasn't a very good decision was it? I'm sure by this point the majority of people start thinking "what can I do differently?" and then put that thought into action. I know that I faced some moments like that when I was playing archetypes, and it was very satisfying to me when I figured out how to succeed in those situations just by using the tools given to me as an archetype. Am I bragging when I say this? Only if whoever is reading this thinks that succeeding in this game is an impressive achievement. I don't.
Basically, a lot of it boils down to the player and their approach to solving these problems. I think there are some people who have gotten used to the very heavy usage of hand holding in some modern games. I think it would be fine if they added some missions that gently prod players into thinking out of the "dps, mitigation, healing" box though, but at the same time I think people should have the freedom to figure some of it out themselves and in the process develop a personal style. I mean shoot, you guys see how much fun I have with the concept that I'm beating things in a different way than other people.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
but that was years ago, maybe they have changed some things already.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
My characters
That's entirely true, did that when I built an FF Archer, made a huge difference (the part of Storm of Arrows which roots enemies is much more practical for a low level toon in an Alert as it maintains a nice distance).
Spinnytop - that's nice what-I-reckonry, and we love your ability to throw yourself a parade, but really experienced players aren't the best judges of these things.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
If you think my ability to beat quest mobs is reason to "throw a parade", then I think I have a very clear picture of your mentality in this game. You didn't ask but I'll tell you anyway: I don't.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Do you have the option to not aggro 5-10 opponents at a time? Could you self-mitigate by waiting for your friends to attack first? Could you skip this attack and just attack one dude? Could you just snipe the one guy that's being attacked by someone who has already pulled a bunch of threat?
I dunno what this "people who don't know what they don't know (what does this redundancy even mean?) overestimate their own abilities and do things..." What?
I don't get this. To me, it's as simple as this. I snapped a sniper rifle at this guy two times. The third time I snapped it, the guy got mad at me and came to hit me.
Logic, not "Dunning-Kreuger", tells me that if I snap a Sniper Rifle three times, I get aggro. Reason tells me that if I don't want to get my **** chewed on, I should not use Sniper Rifle three times. Use your smaller attacks. Use some AoEs. I'm sure you don't have just one big SNIPER RIFLE button on the middle of your screen. Unless your team is absolutely counting on you to use that Sniper Rifle three times or the whole thing is a bust, I don't think it's necessary.
Dial your DPS back or expect to chew floor, and be ready to accept it as your own fault. I do! I'm the dumb type of player that just attacks til they're dead, and then I get back up and do it again. If I gave a crap about not chewing floor? I'd not use my best attacks all the time whenever they're on cooldown. If I wanted to stay alive, I'd hitch a ride on my energy builder. Nobody is gonna report you for that and if they did? Nothing would happen. We barely have GMs, and when we do, they don't go mental on the most trivial of issues.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
My characters
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Also, singling it out for consideration in game design seems unwise as it's an omnipresent part of human existence.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
My characters
And, yes, it's really not something to take under consideration in this area.
Just saying >_>"
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect
Their research also suggests corollaries: highly skilled individuals may underestimate their relative competence and may erroneously assume that tasks which are easy for them are also easy for others.[1]
Be flattered by that, btw.
Folks who haven't figured things out may have some very warped perceptions about the game - not getting past these perceptions is what leads to the "If I can't do it, it's impossible and unfair" mentality.
Yup. It's always a problem. People don't learn if they don't make mistakes, but they get frustrated about making mistakes. Keeping them interested and having a "yes we can" attitude is a balancing act and sometimes CO fails on that score. The huge number of players who drop out around level 9-15 shows that.
I know you want stuff to be tough, but sometimes this game is just uneven and incomprehensible - dying and respawning's OK if you learnt something, it's not if you have no idea what just killed you. Again, and again, and again. The point here is that some of the silver ATs and their power development aren't the best for new/emerging players - they're a bit like giving a learner driver the keys to a sports car and telling them to do a fast lap of the track. Some will work it out, most will end up in a ditch. Marksman, Inferno, Soldier ATs all have the capacity to crash and burn really quickly... if they're the advert for the paying game then maybe Silver ATs need to be something slightly more sympathetic-but-limited?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
My characters
PS - everyone check out handofkain's new gameplay video where he plays a low level archer in solo content!
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
If you have another level range or encounter you would like to see me destroy with my godly amounts of skill, talent, good looks, and mind controlling pheremones, then lemme know!
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
My characters
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
My characters
Let's say you have two men who don't know the capitol of Alaska. You ask both of them what the capitol of Alaska is. The first says “I don't know.” The second says “Nome.” Neither man knows the answer. But the first man knows that he doesn't know. While the second man doesn't know that he doesn't know the answer.
“It ain't what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain’t so.”
On the flip side, consider two detectives trying to solve a murder. One of them has a clear enough understanding of the case to ask the right questions. The other must grope blindly. Neither of them knows whodunit, but they are by no means on equal footing.
“Knowing what you don't know,” that is, determining the size and shape of one's own ignorance, is a vital step in the learning process. Hard to fill in gaps if you don't know where those gaps are.
I think Mr. Smackwell is correct in assuming however that most people don't end up in these states, as the Dunning-Kruger effect generally tends to be talking about people at the very highest and lowest ends of the competency spectrum, and then not even everyone in those demographics. There are very incompetent people who realize they are thus and just don't particularly care about raising their level of competency, just as there are highly skilled people who are aware of their high level of skill but still have the ability to recognize when they are engaging in very low skill activities.
After all just because someone who is a genius at puzzles manages to figure out how the toy in the picture below works doesn't mean said toy is suddenly considered a difficult puzzle, and they're probably very likely to realize that.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
There's no universal rule. The main observation I would make about you as a player, Spinny - and it's not rude - is that you seem to be good at handling both difficulty and complexity. You know lots about the game, and you can't unlearn that. So even if you take a noob level AT for a spin, as your vids show, you'll walk it, because you know what to do and the right time to do it. You've worked out all the kinks in the UI and the tells the villians make and - boom! - it's easy. And that's great.
Thing is, though. CO is a broad gaming church. Many games cater for this by having effective difficulty and level sliders; so you might get Normal, Hard, Elite, Hardcore.... and also get Casual, in quite a few. What Casual does is to maintain normal difficulty - the strength of the enemies, how fast they are - and reduce complexity. The player says to the game "I don't care about that stuff, make some decisions for me, I just want to play for fun". Hulk Smash! And that's great too.
So for me, Silver ATs should be the Casual level of the game; fun to play, well chosen powers, and not too much thinking about mechanics needed. A good player with an understanding of things like threat will still take them far - but less involved players aren't going to get mangled by things they don't know/don't care about. Some of the power choices on ATs like the Marksman and Inferno aren't those good choices I mentioned earlier - why give a lvl14 character the ability to aggro half the Alert map, or insist their best attack involves charging a squishy headlong into a melee? By all means beef up enemy difficulty to compensate but give people a break. A lot of people are playing this game for laughs (which is why I'm currently playing a Rockstar AT...)
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
- Attacking while moving. Default keybinds actually make that somewhat hard.
- Making use of line of sight to only deal with one or two foes at a time.
- Kiting melee villains.
- Making use of line of sight to interrupt charges and maintains.
None of those things are particularly unique to CO (other than, maybe, 4 because of the glitchy way CO handles losing LoS) or represent uniquely high level play, but they aren't novice either.Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Also we're running into that problem again where not all novices are created equal. A novice to CO, a novice to MMOs, and a novice to video games in general are three very different people. That's fine though since novices aren't the issue. The question here isn't how am I different from a novice, the question is am I doing things in such a highly skilled way that it makes the content seem easier than it actually is. As you said, 'changing keybinds' and 'moving while attacking' don't really qualify as high level play, so they couldn't be the cause of this sort of effect. Yes you have shown why a new player unfamiliar with basic game concepts might have issues, but you haven't shown where in the video I am doing challenging content that only seems easy because of the highly skilled way that I am approaching it. If I'm having an easy time just because I'm using basic tactics like movement and LOS, and basic features like changing keybinds, then that doesn't really qualify as something that would blur my ability to tell if something is easy or not. These were things I did almost immediately the first time I started playing CO, back when I was a novice.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
You would probably have been defeated. Do the same thing in a level 35 mission and you'll probably win. Now, you can argue that this is because the high level game is ridiculously easy. I'd probably agree. That still leaves a weird challenge gap between low and high level content.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
You're going around and hitting mobs your level, anyone can do that. Take a level low-level character that pulls mad aggro with AoE effects into a Grab Alert, and make a video showing you can survive that.
That's what I've been talking about, so that's what I made videos of. Folks tried to say that low level content is hard, then tried to say I don't get to have an opinion cause I'm good at the game. Yeah, someone brought up aggro and group content at some point.
If you want a video of me showing how easy alerts are on my low level soldier, I'll happily do that next. I have to ask though, why the stipulation that I try to pull a lot of aggro? Is that something low level ATs have to do for the alert to successfully complete?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I don't think expecting people to move around a bit in combat, considering one of the big deals about this game is travel powers in combat, is expecting very much of people however.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Keep in mind the game does recommend a team for those missions, so if your AT can't do it alone at first...just come back later and try it again!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
My characters
All the moving around, kiting, and LOSing I do isn't required - it's mostly just fun.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I dunno, do whatever. Just the road you two were going down was never gonna end.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Archetype solo difficulty, anyway.
Silver ATs - For casual and new players and those not familiar with Vintage MMO mechanics: Possibly too hard, first up. Too many things to think about, not enough explanation in-game, and some poor power choices, esp. in Alerts. Swap Torrent of Arrows for Storm of Arrows on the Marksman and Flashfire for Conflagration on the Inferno and we'd have more fun with those.
For experienced players: Some of them are quite well built and fun to play, close to "what I'd build if I made this as a freeform" - I like the Master, the Void, the Scourge, the Icicle, espec. Some of them I find a bit dull and don't run them past 30. The Glacier, for example - runs out of energy so often that every fight becomes tedious. The Rockstar - power progression between 18 and 40 is 21 - Self Heal (not great, tbh), 25 - EB, 30 - Block, 35 - Active Offense. That's 22 levels between Annihilate (17) and Unleashed Rage (40). Uber-snooze. There's also the problem with final powers at 40, which is "I've got all my powers and nothing much do to with them". To make them more fun to play I'd make all ATs have the full power set by level 35; Premium (purchased ones) might get an extra slot at 38 for lockbox/unlockable powers. That way you'd have a good set of powers (fun!), content to play it with (Rampages, levelling up level 35-40), stuff to add on (gear) and still have a reason to go Freeform (more powers, power choices, roles, and better durability for endgame).
Otherwise... I wish they'd do something with the difficulty slider so that you can make a decent choice of challenge. At the moment "Elite" doesn't mean anywhere near it. That has to be addressed sometime soon...
xx
My super cool CC build and how to use it.