"The enrage nerf" is a catastrophe ! seriously WTH for the melee stop privileging the ranged that's boring enrage need to go back to 1min not 20sec "ranged and melee is totally different......
"The enrage nerf" is a catastrophe ! seriously WTH for the melee stop privileging the ranged that's boring enrage need to go back to 1min not 20sec "ranged and melee is totally different......
Devs won't bring the duration back. They want to give us a bit of difficulty to make the game challenging. No matter how much it hurts the melee gameplay.
I'm sorta glad devs are trying to make us competitive in a way. Just hope that it won't turn away what little playerbase we have left.
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"The enrage nerf" is a catastrophe ! seriously WTH for the melee stop privileging the ranged that's boring enrage need to go back to 1min not 20sec "ranged and melee is totally different......
Devs won't bring the duration back. They want to give us a bit of difficulty to make the game challenging. No matter how much it hurts the melee gameplay.
I'm sorta glad devs are trying to make us competitive in a way. Just hope that it won't turn away what little playerbase we have left.
Just the same it should be brought down to tier with the rest of them. That's really the best way I see to even out the duration change.
Re Enrage. Actually this one is for the players, not the devs.
Yes I get it there are a smaller number of skills that stack enrage than other skills, Yes I had a heck of a time stacking enrage on my pre-change devistator before i figured out the tricks, and can see how it can be hard to make stacks tanking. You'd guys would be in absolute fits and tears trying to stack Concentration with a ranged tanks if you can't handle enrage!
...But... Enrage is not the only form, and it is not the only tanking form. If it is special, why arn't Swordsman, Master, Tiger, or Melee-Range-Concentration?
So seriously 1) Why so special? Why should it be the one out liner? [Devs/Reader can go check the forms are the same, not going to double check] 2) Not special? Re-purpose your argument/attack. Tanking the crucial flaw? Tank role needs a buff for stacks? Blocking more of an issue? Stack need to poof 1 by one and not all perhaps? All forms should be 30 seconds .. cause reasons?
Think I've done my good deed for the day. Or -pun- enraged everyone [yaaaeeehhhhh!]
Enrage shouldn't have this change simply because tanks who use it and need it to get some kind of damage to hold agro have to block often and use a power choice to proc it. Other forms don't need a power choice to proc it as they automatically get it from something that happens innately in gameplay.
Concentration - any ranged power activating in range and maintaining a power for half a duration
Compassion - whenever you heal a target
Form of the Tempest - whenever you crit
Aspect of the Infernal - whenever you poison (all your attack powers will be doing that)
Aspect of the Bestial - whenever you make something bleed (all your attack powers will be doing that)
All of these are accomplished without even trying.
Now if Enrage would refresh every time you attempted to knock or repel that would be fine. It just needs to refresh every time you use a power that can knock even on tap. Or maybe it can also proc whenever something attempts to knock or repel you.
Enrage shouldn't have this change simply because tanks who use it and need it to get some kind of damage to hold agro have to block often and use a power choice to proc it. Other forms don't need a power choice to proc it as they automatically get it from something that happens innately in gameplay.
Concentration - any ranged power activating in range and maintaining a power for half a duration
Compassion - whenever you heal a target
Form of the Tempest - whenever you crit
Aspect of the Infernal - whenever you poison (all your attack powers will be doing that)
Aspect of the Bestial - whenever you make something bleed (all your attack powers will be doing that)
All of these are accomplished without even trying.
Now if Enrage would refresh every time you attempted to knock or repel that would be fine. It just needs to refresh every time you use a power that can knock even on tap. Or maybe it can also proc whenever something attempts to knock or repel you.
This, Enrage is the only one with a limited list. more powers need to knock, adv or ability itself,.
and wiping ALL stacks, why bother ranking up , if you're going to lose those stacks when it times out.
I have had no problems building or keeping enrage going ever. Especially on might.
Roomsweeper. Tap it, instant refresh from a guaranteed knock attempt. Charge it half full and get the above knock-stack + additional stack + potential additional stacks per target hit. The half-charge aspect of room sweeper isn't subject to cooldown either so you can just fling a flurry of half-charged room sweepers to build enrage to 8 stacks at a record pace.
In heavy weapons erupt will guarantee refresh stack duration on tap and potentially toss you a stack.
Iron Cyclone + Vortex technique will refresh all your stacks, you don't even need to hit anything for this, so you can keep yourself on a nice angry simmer by using this every few seconds.
Also any of the other moves may be used on destroyables, that counts as knocking still. So, eff those chairs, they had it coming.
I have had no problems building or keeping enrage going ever. Especially on might.
Roomsweeper. Tap it, instant refresh from a guaranteed knock attempt. Charge it half full and get the above knock-stack + additional stack + potential additional stacks per target hit. The half-charge aspect of room sweeper isn't subject to cooldown either so you can just fling a flurry of half-charged room sweepers to build enrage to 8 stacks at a record pace.
In heavy weapons erupt will guarantee refresh stack duration on tap and potentially toss you a stack.
Iron Cyclone + Vortex technique will refresh all your stacks, you don't even need to hit anything for this, so you can keep yourself on a nice angry simmer by using this every few seconds.
Also any of the other moves may be used on destroyables, that counts as knocking still. So, eff those chairs, they had it coming.
The problem with eruption is if someone kills your target while you're doing the animation, the power will still go to cd. Which may cost you to lose your stacks.
There are builds with a theme in mind. So, said powers may not fit the theme , like Iron/Vicious Cyclone.
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The problem with eruption is if someone kills your target while you're doing the animation, the power will still go to cd. Which may cost you to lose your stacks.
It's actually worse than that: if you kill your target with eruption (or any other knock power), it will frequently not refresh enrage stacks. Even if you see the corpse go flying.
Alright, so I'm gonna make an embarrassing list of powers with knock/enrage building here. And what the complaints we are seeing are saying, is that they are unable to use -any- of these powers within a 20 second time span on their builds. And if that's the case, I have to ask the question: Why are you even using enrage as your toggle?
Powers that knock/enrage starting from Brick and spanning out to everything else:
Might:
Mighty Kick - On full charge, knocks. Uppercut - Knocks on tap. Demolish - Advantage for knockdown on tap. Haymaker - Knocks on a slight charge. Iron Chain - Advantage causes knock when enraged or when fully charged. Iron Lariat - Knocks on use. Roomsweeper - Knocks on tap, more than 50% charge is a stack for every target knocked. iron cyclone - 30% chance to knock per tick, advantage gives a stack of enrage for a full maintain even out of combat. Thunderclap - Gives a stack of enraged when hitting 3+ targets. Havoc stomp - On tap 40% chance to knock, full charge is a knock and 50% chance per target hit to gain stacks per target. Hyper voice - Full maintain knocks down targets. Shockwave- Full maintains knocks up. Mighty leap - Advantage knocks back targets near primary target. Unleashed Rage - Knocks down targets.
Heavy Weapons:
Annihilate - Knocks on tap. Cleave - 30%>40%>50% chance to knockdown, doubled if target is disoriented. Eruption - Knocks on use. Arc of Ruin - Advantage knocks down all targets every 3 seconds after application. Skull Crusher - Knocks all targets on tap. Brimstone - Knocks down all targets on tap. Earthsplitter - Knocks up all targets on tap. Vicious Descent - Advantage knocks down all affected targets. Power Chord - Knocks back targets when you stop maintaining.
Earth:
Upheaval - Knocks up on tap. Cave in - Advantage causes full charge on staggered target consumes all stacks of stagger and turns them into enrage stacks. Seismic Smash - Knocks on use. Tremor - Knocks on tap. Fissure - 20% chance per tick to knock up, +10% chance per stagger on target. Fault Line - Knocks on tap. Land Slide - Advantage causes upon hitting staggered target, becomes 10ft. AoE and knocks up all targets hit.
Celestial:
Expulse - Knocks on tap.
Darkness:
Shadow Embrace - Advantages for chance to knock down targets and chance to knock targets toward you. Ebon Rift - Advantage for targets pulled close are knocked.
Sorcery:
Pillar of Poz - Knocks all targets on tap.
Bestial/Infernal:
Massacre - Knocks down on tap. Pounce - When used from over 20' knocks down target. Vile Lariat - Knocks target towards you on use. Lash - Advantage causes knock when enraged or fully charged. Vicious Cyclone - Chance per tick to knock targets, advantage causes full maintain to apply enrage even out of combat.
Electricity:
Sparkstorm - Knocks targets affected by negative ions. Lightning Storm - Advantage causes knock on tap, then chance per tick.
Fire:
Pyre - Advantage knocks down all targets.
Force:
Force Bolts - 20% chance to knock on first shot. Force Snap - Knocks target toward you on use, advantage to knock down targets in an AoE. Force Blast - Knocks on tap. Force geyser - Knocks up on use. Force Eruption - AoE knock on Tap. Crushing Wave - Advantage causes knockdown on last tick of maintain. Force Cascade - Knocks when charged any amount. Force detonation - Knocks on use. Gravity Driver - Knocks down central targets.
Wind:
Updraft - Knocks up on tap. Wind Breath - Advantage adds chance to knock down per tick. Hurricane - Full maintain knocks all targets. Whirlwind - 10% chance to knock down disoriented targets. Typhoon - 50% chance to knock down targets, 100% chance to knock back disoriented targets. Air elemental - At r3 can knock down primary target of its thunderstrike.
Ice:
Ice Burst - Knocks on use. Avalanche - 10% chance per tick to knock down targets. Fractal Aegis - Knocks up targets on use.
Archery:
Torrent of Arrows - Advantage knocks all targets.
Gadgeteering:
Sonic Blaster - 15% chance on first hit to knock. Boomerang Toss - 20% chance on first hit to knock. Tractor Beam - Advantages causes target pulled into melee to be knocked. Experimental Blaster - 25% chance to knock up when charged more than 1 second. Grapple Gun Pull - Knocks target toward you on use. Particle Mine - Advantage knocks back all targets. Implosion Engine - Advantage causes knock upon end of power. Mechanical Monstrosity - Electrocute attack has a chance to knock foes.
Munitions:
Shotgun Blast - 50% chance to knock main target, 25% all other targets. Advantage causes 100% chance knock on main target and 100% chance to knock all targets while affected by concentration Rocket - Advantage causes knock on all targets. Frag Grenade - Knocks on use. Breakaway Shot - Advantage causes knock toward when used in melee range.
Power Armor:
Rocket Punch - Advantage causes knock when charged at least half way. Energy Wave - Knocks all targets on use. Chest Beam - Knocks on tap. Shoulder Launcher - 20% chance to knock all targets.
Martial Arts:
Rising Knee - Knocks on use. Shuriken Throw - Knocks down on use. Advantage causes knock-to. Either can work once every 5 seconds. Inexorable Tides - Knocks up all targets on use. Smoke Bomb - Advantage knocks down targets within 15'. Strike Down - Knocks down target when used from over 20' away and target is unaffected by another control effect. Rend and Tear - knocks up on tap. Dragon's Claws - Advantage Knocks down 3 times over 3 seconds, cannot occur more than once every 60 seconds. Dragon Uppercut - Knocks on tap. Open Palm Strike - Knocks all targets when charged more than 0.5sec.
Telekinesis:
Telekinetic Eruption - If charged more than 1 second Knocks all targets. Telekinetic Burst - Advantage knocks down all targets. Telekinetic Wave - Knocks on use.
There we go. I might've missed something, who knows, it's a lot of powers to keep track of. Again, if you can't find a way to use at least one of these powers every 20 seconds to keep your stacks up in combat. You should probably rethink your core build entirely.
And what the complaints we are seeing are saying, is that they are unable to use -any- of these powers within a 20 second time span on their builds. And if that's the case, I have to ask the question: Why are you even using enrage as your toggle?
As you can see, AoE is not quite fragile. Having Eruption interupted even once ends up with Enrage only lasting a few more seconds when it's off cooldown. The obvious workarrounds are: -Get the knock adv on Arc of Ruin, which lowers AoE damage by 20% -Get the knock adv on Vicious Descent (this is what I currently do). But to compare, how many adv points does a ranged build need to keep up their toggle forms? -Use Annihilate, but that does a big knockback even on taps, so is not something I want to do unless I am sure I will kill my targets and not have to chase them down. -Accept Enrage falls off now and then. -Drop a power and get another power that knocks.
The reason I was/am not happy with the change to Ernage duration, is not so much that it makes things impossible, but more that it "forces" you into making certain choices that most other forms do not.
The reason I was/am not happy with the change to Ernage duration, is not so much that it makes things impossible, but more that it "forces" you into making certain choices that most other forms do not.
But you're "forced" to use ranged powers or maintains/charge over halfway with concentration, are you not? You're "forced" to use poisons/bleeds with Aspect of the bestial, right? You're "forced" to use poison with Aspect of the infernal. You're "forced" to use powers that can stack ego leech with mental discipline. You're "forced" to use some sort of holds/stuns with Manipulator. You're "forced" to have a decent crit rate with Form of the Tempest. You're "forced" to use over halfway charges with Form of the tiger. You're "forced" to use bleeds with form of the swordsman. You're "forced" to be actively targeted and dodging attacks with form of the master.
Every toggle forces you into a certain play style by their very design. You're supposed to pick a toggle based on your build's play style, not pick a toggle because you want to min/max (insert stat here). That's the mistake people seem to be making. Worrying too much about maximum damage potential, when in reality, your damage potential outside of cosmic/boss fights doesn't mean much at all. Everything that's not a boss is going to die in seconds and your toggle really makes almost no difference, especially in a group. The only time keeping your stacks up actually matters is in a long term fight.
By the way, I'm all for the removal of concentration as a form and having it replaced by power set specific toggles like many of the other sets. Infernal has been doing it for awhile. So why not standardize that power interaction based stacking across all the sets?
You're never forced to use any adv to make ranged powers proc Concentration, and it has 2 options that are both very easy to proc (on top of ranged powers being easier to proc anything) MA forms scale of DEX, so having a decent crit rate is typically not a huge problem. And MA forms have some other options that work well in the framework, many MA builds would work with at least 2, while enrage forms are much more tied to 1 set (Enrage+Bestial does work, AotB+brick typically not so much) If you do not want poison, or your build doesn't stack it easily, you can easily replace AotI with Concentration without making any consessions to stats and such. AotB is also more restricted (and even more so when using Deep Wounds), which is another reason why this enrage nerf was not needed.
And I don't really understand what you're exactly implying with form choices. Are you suggesting using MA forms for brick builds? If so I don't think I can agree with that idea.
I wouldn't mind set specific forms, but I don't think it's worth the effort at the moment, I would rather see that dev time spend on something else. The same goes for the time now used to change enrage, read feedback, make additional changes, maybe fix bugs that were never any issue with the longer duration (enrage proccing unreliably when knocking on the same hit that kills your target).
And I don't really understand what you're exactly implying with form choices. Are you suggesting using MA forms for brick builds? If so I don't think I can agree with that idea.
Why not? I have several Brick based toons using form of the tempest or form of the tiger. I simply use the form that I can most easily stack with the attacks I'm using. The difference between dex or str primaries is negligible at best on a melee character.
And again, Concentration the toggle, was a lazy solution put forth at the time it was made. It's purposely the most vague and easily stackable form because it had to cater to literally every ranged powerset in the game. Because the powersets themselves don't actually have their own toggles to rely on, everyone uses Concentration which is based in the Munitions/Power Armor sets primarily. You'll remember at one point it had fewer means of stacking, and required full maintains to stack, when it was originally on PTS.
And I don't really understand what you're exactly implying with form choices. Are you suggesting using MA forms for brick builds? If so I don't think I can agree with that idea.
Why not? I have several Brick based toons using form of the tempest or form of the tiger. I simply use the form that I can most easily stack with the attacks I'm using. The difference between dex or str primaries is negligible at best on a melee character.
We are getting into the territory discussing specific builds, which might not really fit this thread.
In general I think a normal in set build should work for the in set form (that was the reason for posting my build, to show how that can very easily not work now), without having to get otherwise very optional advantages.
We are getting into the territory discussing specific builds, which might not really fit this thread.
In general I think a normal in set build should work for the in set form (that was the reason for posting my build, to show how that can very easily not work now), without having to get otherwise very optional advantages.
I said it before, and I'll say it again, HW needs its own Form to work better with. Plus Aiga, its only you limiting your own options through choices you make, not the nerfs to powers. For its YOUR CHOICE to use only ONE attack with knock. Its YOUR CHOICE to use Enrage where Form of the Tiger might be better. Not Cryptic forcing you to play a certain way. So while you might not like the nerf, it happened. And it was needed. Now all they need to do is reduce the tier level of Enrage (and other forms to) to be in line with the other forms.
In fact, the form for HW should stack enrage, and proc on say, applying/refreshing clinging flames with a melee attack?
I've also said that forms should be removed from the game (and the damage bonuses they apply should be baked into melee attacks). Concentration was made not because of an imbalance between melee and ranged, but because ranged users were not happy there was no ranged forms. So, in reality, forms are not needed in this game, people do to much damage as is, along with having to much defense, and this is causing us to get bosses that have one-shot kill moves.
We are getting into the territory discussing specific builds, which might not really fit this thread.
In general I think a normal in set build should work for the in set form (that was the reason for posting my build, to show how that can very easily not work now), without having to get otherwise very optional advantages.
I said it before, and I'll say it again, HW needs its own Form to work better with. Plus Aiga, its only you limiting your own options through choices you make, not the nerfs to powers. For its YOUR CHOICE to use only ONE attack with knock. Its YOUR CHOICE to use Enrage where Form of the Tiger might be better. Not Cryptic forcing you to play a certain way. So while you might not like the nerf, it happened. And it was needed. Now all they need to do is reduce the tier level of Enrage (and other forms to) to be in line with the other forms.
I didn't change my choices, Enrage was changed. Then claiming my non-changed choices are now suddenly limiting me is a bit odd. Also there is the whole energy/powers/EU synergy stuff to consider, but again I would prefer if we just didn't make this about me (and least of all in a passive aggressive way). The idea of having any reasonable in set build work with the in framework form is not so strange an idea in my opinion.
Also I am not sure how many AoE attacks that can stack your form you generally take, but from what I've seen people generally don't take a lot of those. And to compare to other recent changes: After the bemoaned tgm changes, a tgm build can make due with 2 attacks for a fully functional build and for all their attacking and proccing needs. After the last two melee overhauls HW or bestial now require 3 attacks to function, but for HW that can still end up with builds with strong functional limitations now that Enrage has changed. So for a HW build that has nicely functional single target and AoE and can make use of the in set synergies and forms, you rather have 4 attacks now. And then you also want a lunge for melee, leaving very little room very some utility.
Also "it happened" and "it was needed" are really not things that will ever convince someone that disagrees with a change like this. You might think it was needed, but there is no objectivity there. The addition of the knockdown to the Arc of Ruin adv also shows that "it happened" was not the end of it at all. And while I think it's as much of a concession as HW will get, it's also very restrictive to put that on the adv that refreshes CF.
Either way, I think I've made my point enough now. I don't think this change is something that improves balance, or improves CO, or makes things more fun, or improves anything else. It looks more like a spreadsheet thing to me.
The idea of having any reasonable in set build work with the in framework form is not so strange an idea in my opinion.
Thats just the thing, Enrage existed before HW did, Enrage was not built for HW in mind. Enrage technically belongs to the Might set, not HW set. So technically, its not an in set form. And that's what you keep talking about, in set stuff. HW just got a lot of knocks, and that's why it works with Enrage, not because Enrage was made for HW. The only reason they made Enrage also count as a HW power was because HW had no real mechanic at the time to make it unique compared to Might. So they just slapped Enrage as a catch all for the Brick power sets (Might, Earth, and HW). With the changed to HW it is time for it to get a new form that is built around CF. Also, as far as restrictive goes, all Forms are basically restrictive (Save for Concentration and IDF), so, whining about restrictions is pointless.
The idea of having any reasonable in set build work with the in framework form is not so strange an idea in my opinion.
Thats just the thing, Enrage existed before HW did, Enrage was not built for HW in mind. Enrage technically belongs to the Might set, not HW set. So technically, its not an in set form. And that's what you keep talking about, in set stuff. HW just got a lot of knocks, and that's why it works with Enrage, not because Enrage was made for HW. The only reason they made Enrage also count as a HW power was because HW had no real mechanic at the time to make it unique compared to Might. So they just slapped Enrage as a catch all for the Brick power sets (Might, Earth, and HW). With the changed to HW it is time for it to get a new form that is built around CF. Also, as far as restrictive goes, all Forms are basically restrictive (Save for Concentration and IDF), so, whining about restrictions is pointless.
I am afraid you're not remembering that correctly (not that I reaslly think it's important how something was originally designed 6 years ago).
Enrage used to not be a toggled form at all. It was a buff you could stack using attacks from might and HW, or by using the enrage power which was just single target version of howl but which could also stack enrage. The toggle to go with that was aggressor. The HW powers that stacked enrage were cleave and skewer, and eruption refreshed it. So it's always been a HW thing since HW was added to CO.
Comments
I'm sorta glad devs are trying to make us competitive in a way. Just hope that it won't turn away what little playerbase we have left.
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@Chimerafreek
Yes I get it there are a smaller number of skills that stack enrage than other skills, Yes I had a heck of a time stacking enrage on my pre-change devistator before i figured out the tricks, and can see how it can be hard to make stacks tanking. You'd guys would be in absolute fits and tears trying to stack Concentration with a ranged tanks if you can't handle enrage!
...But... Enrage is not the only form, and it is not the only tanking form. If it is special, why arn't Swordsman, Master, Tiger, or Melee-Range-Concentration?
So seriously
1) Why so special? Why should it be the one out liner? [Devs/Reader can go check the forms are the same, not going to double check]
2) Not special? Re-purpose your argument/attack. Tanking the crucial flaw? Tank role needs a buff for stacks? Blocking more of an issue? Stack need to poof 1 by one and not all perhaps? All forms should be 30 seconds .. cause reasons?
Think I've done my good deed for the day. Or -pun- enraged everyone [yaaaeeehhhhh!]
Concentration - any ranged power activating in range and maintaining a power for half a duration
Compassion - whenever you heal a target
Form of the Tempest - whenever you crit
Aspect of the Infernal - whenever you poison (all your attack powers will be doing that)
Aspect of the Bestial - whenever you make something bleed (all your attack powers will be doing that)
All of these are accomplished without even trying.
Now if Enrage would refresh every time you attempted to knock or repel that would be fine. It just needs to refresh every time you use a power that can knock even on tap. Or maybe it can also proc whenever something attempts to knock or repel you.
This, Enrage is the only one with a limited list. more powers need to knock, adv or ability itself,.
and wiping ALL stacks, why bother ranking up , if you're going to lose those stacks when it times out.
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Roomsweeper. Tap it, instant refresh from a guaranteed knock attempt. Charge it half full and get the above knock-stack + additional stack + potential additional stacks per target hit. The half-charge aspect of room sweeper isn't subject to cooldown either so you can just fling a flurry of half-charged room sweepers to build enrage to 8 stacks at a record pace.
In heavy weapons erupt will guarantee refresh stack duration on tap and potentially toss you a stack.
Iron Cyclone + Vortex technique will refresh all your stacks, you don't even need to hit anything for this, so you can keep yourself on a nice angry simmer by using this every few seconds.
Also any of the other moves may be used on destroyables, that counts as knocking still. So, eff those chairs, they had it coming.
There are builds with a theme in mind. So, said powers may not fit the theme , like Iron/Vicious Cyclone.
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AoTB r2 does not refresh enrage duration out of combat.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Powers that knock/enrage starting from Brick and spanning out to everything else:
Might:
Mighty Kick - On full charge, knocks.
Uppercut - Knocks on tap.
Demolish - Advantage for knockdown on tap.
Haymaker - Knocks on a slight charge.
Iron Chain - Advantage causes knock when enraged or when fully charged.
Iron Lariat - Knocks on use.
Roomsweeper - Knocks on tap, more than 50% charge is a stack for every target knocked.
iron cyclone - 30% chance to knock per tick, advantage gives a stack of enrage for a full maintain even out of combat.
Thunderclap - Gives a stack of enraged when hitting 3+ targets.
Havoc stomp - On tap 40% chance to knock, full charge is a knock and 50% chance per target hit to gain stacks per target.
Hyper voice - Full maintain knocks down targets.
Shockwave- Full maintains knocks up.
Mighty leap - Advantage knocks back targets near primary target.
Unleashed Rage - Knocks down targets.
Heavy Weapons:
Annihilate - Knocks on tap.
Cleave - 30%>40%>50% chance to knockdown, doubled if target is disoriented.
Eruption - Knocks on use.
Arc of Ruin - Advantage knocks down all targets every 3 seconds after application.
Skull Crusher - Knocks all targets on tap.
Brimstone - Knocks down all targets on tap.
Earthsplitter - Knocks up all targets on tap.
Vicious Descent - Advantage knocks down all affected targets.
Power Chord - Knocks back targets when you stop maintaining.
Earth:
Upheaval - Knocks up on tap.
Cave in - Advantage causes full charge on staggered target consumes all stacks of stagger and turns them into enrage stacks.
Seismic Smash - Knocks on use.
Tremor - Knocks on tap.
Fissure - 20% chance per tick to knock up, +10% chance per stagger on target.
Fault Line - Knocks on tap.
Land Slide - Advantage causes upon hitting staggered target, becomes 10ft. AoE and knocks up all targets hit.
Celestial:
Expulse - Knocks on tap.
Darkness:
Shadow Embrace - Advantages for chance to knock down targets and chance to knock targets toward you.
Ebon Rift - Advantage for targets pulled close are knocked.
Sorcery:
Pillar of Poz - Knocks all targets on tap.
Bestial/Infernal:
Massacre - Knocks down on tap.
Pounce - When used from over 20' knocks down target.
Vile Lariat - Knocks target towards you on use.
Lash - Advantage causes knock when enraged or fully charged.
Vicious Cyclone - Chance per tick to knock targets, advantage causes full maintain to apply enrage even out of combat.
Electricity:
Sparkstorm - Knocks targets affected by negative ions.
Lightning Storm - Advantage causes knock on tap, then chance per tick.
Fire:
Pyre - Advantage knocks down all targets.
Force:
Force Bolts - 20% chance to knock on first shot.
Force Snap - Knocks target toward you on use, advantage to knock down targets in an AoE.
Force Blast - Knocks on tap.
Force geyser - Knocks up on use.
Force Eruption - AoE knock on Tap.
Crushing Wave - Advantage causes knockdown on last tick of maintain.
Force Cascade - Knocks when charged any amount.
Force detonation - Knocks on use.
Gravity Driver - Knocks down central targets.
Wind:
Updraft - Knocks up on tap.
Wind Breath - Advantage adds chance to knock down per tick.
Hurricane - Full maintain knocks all targets.
Whirlwind - 10% chance to knock down disoriented targets.
Typhoon - 50% chance to knock down targets, 100% chance to knock back disoriented targets.
Air elemental - At r3 can knock down primary target of its thunderstrike.
Ice:
Ice Burst - Knocks on use.
Avalanche - 10% chance per tick to knock down targets.
Fractal Aegis - Knocks up targets on use.
Archery:
Torrent of Arrows - Advantage knocks all targets.
Gadgeteering:
Sonic Blaster - 15% chance on first hit to knock.
Boomerang Toss - 20% chance on first hit to knock.
Tractor Beam - Advantages causes target pulled into melee to be knocked.
Experimental Blaster - 25% chance to knock up when charged more than 1 second.
Grapple Gun Pull - Knocks target toward you on use.
Particle Mine - Advantage knocks back all targets.
Implosion Engine - Advantage causes knock upon end of power.
Mechanical Monstrosity - Electrocute attack has a chance to knock foes.
Munitions:
Shotgun Blast - 50% chance to knock main target, 25% all other targets. Advantage causes 100% chance knock on main target and 100% chance to knock all targets while affected by concentration
Rocket - Advantage causes knock on all targets.
Frag Grenade - Knocks on use.
Breakaway Shot - Advantage causes knock toward when used in melee range.
Power Armor:
Rocket Punch - Advantage causes knock when charged at least half way.
Energy Wave - Knocks all targets on use.
Chest Beam - Knocks on tap.
Shoulder Launcher - 20% chance to knock all targets.
Martial Arts:
Rising Knee - Knocks on use.
Shuriken Throw - Knocks down on use. Advantage causes knock-to. Either can work once every 5 seconds.
Inexorable Tides - Knocks up all targets on use.
Smoke Bomb - Advantage knocks down targets within 15'.
Strike Down - Knocks down target when used from over 20' away and target is unaffected by another control effect.
Rend and Tear - knocks up on tap.
Dragon's Claws - Advantage Knocks down 3 times over 3 seconds, cannot occur more than once every 60 seconds.
Dragon Uppercut - Knocks on tap.
Open Palm Strike - Knocks all targets when charged more than 0.5sec.
Telekinesis:
Telekinetic Eruption - If charged more than 1 second Knocks all targets.
Telekinetic Burst - Advantage knocks down all targets.
Telekinetic Wave - Knocks on use.
There we go. I might've missed something, who knows, it's a lot of powers to keep track of. Again, if you can't find a way to use at least one of these powers every 20 seconds to keep your stacks up in combat. You should probably rethink your core build entirely.
Snark never dies.
http://powerhouse.nullware.com/powerhouse.html?v=13&n=&d=100000000000000G000G20CG304G90LGD00GC04GG04G8019D039G042800J503DM00PB00000100000000
As you can see, AoE is not quite fragile.
Having Eruption interupted even once ends up with Enrage only lasting a few more seconds when it's off cooldown.
The obvious workarrounds are:
-Get the knock adv on Arc of Ruin, which lowers AoE damage by 20%
-Get the knock adv on Vicious Descent (this is what I currently do). But to compare, how many adv points does a ranged build need to keep up their toggle forms?
-Use Annihilate, but that does a big knockback even on taps, so is not something I want to do unless I am sure I will kill my targets and not have to chase them down.
-Accept Enrage falls off now and then.
-Drop a power and get another power that knocks.
The reason I was/am not happy with the change to Ernage duration, is not so much that it makes things impossible, but more that it "forces" you into making certain choices that most other forms do not.
But you're "forced" to use ranged powers or maintains/charge over halfway with concentration, are you not? You're "forced" to use poisons/bleeds with Aspect of the bestial, right? You're "forced" to use poison with Aspect of the infernal. You're "forced" to use powers that can stack ego leech with mental discipline. You're "forced" to use some sort of holds/stuns with Manipulator. You're "forced" to have a decent crit rate with Form of the Tempest. You're "forced" to use over halfway charges with Form of the tiger. You're "forced" to use bleeds with form of the swordsman. You're "forced" to be actively targeted and dodging attacks with form of the master.
Every toggle forces you into a certain play style by their very design. You're supposed to pick a toggle based on your build's play style, not pick a toggle because you want to min/max (insert stat here). That's the mistake people seem to be making. Worrying too much about maximum damage potential, when in reality, your damage potential outside of cosmic/boss fights doesn't mean much at all. Everything that's not a boss is going to die in seconds and your toggle really makes almost no difference, especially in a group. The only time keeping your stacks up actually matters is in a long term fight.
By the way, I'm all for the removal of concentration as a form and having it replaced by power set specific toggles like many of the other sets. Infernal has been doing it for awhile. So why not standardize that power interaction based stacking across all the sets?
Snark never dies.
MA forms scale of DEX, so having a decent crit rate is typically not a huge problem.
And MA forms have some other options that work well in the framework, many MA builds would work with at least 2, while enrage forms are much more tied to 1 set (Enrage+Bestial does work, AotB+brick typically not so much)
If you do not want poison, or your build doesn't stack it easily, you can easily replace AotI with Concentration without making any consessions to stats and such.
AotB is also more restricted (and even more so when using Deep Wounds), which is another reason why this enrage nerf was not needed.
And I don't really understand what you're exactly implying with form choices.
Are you suggesting using MA forms for brick builds?
If so I don't think I can agree with that idea.
I wouldn't mind set specific forms, but I don't think it's worth the effort at the moment, I would rather see that dev time spend on something else.
The same goes for the time now used to change enrage, read feedback, make additional changes, maybe fix bugs that were never any issue with the longer duration (enrage proccing unreliably when knocking on the same hit that kills your target).
in any change-notes, post a little summary of the context behind the changes (not the bugs obviously)
This is a big journey, so far if you're reading this, wish you a good day
Why not? I have several Brick based toons using form of the tempest or form of the tiger. I simply use the form that I can most easily stack with the attacks I'm using. The difference between dex or str primaries is negligible at best on a melee character.
And again, Concentration the toggle, was a lazy solution put forth at the time it was made. It's purposely the most vague and easily stackable form because it had to cater to literally every ranged powerset in the game. Because the powersets themselves don't actually have their own toggles to rely on, everyone uses Concentration which is based in the Munitions/Power Armor sets primarily. You'll remember at one point it had fewer means of stacking, and required full maintains to stack, when it was originally on PTS.
Snark never dies.
In general I think a normal in set build should work for the in set form (that was the reason for posting my build, to show how that can very easily not work now), without having to get otherwise very optional advantages.
In fact, the form for HW should stack enrage, and proc on say, applying/refreshing clinging flames with a melee attack?
I've also said that forms should be removed from the game (and the damage bonuses they apply should be baked into melee attacks). Concentration was made not because of an imbalance between melee and ranged, but because ranged users were not happy there was no ranged forms. So, in reality, forms are not needed in this game, people do to much damage as is, along with having to much defense, and this is causing us to get bosses that have one-shot kill moves.
Also I am not sure how many AoE attacks that can stack your form you generally take, but from what I've seen people generally don't take a lot of those. And to compare to other recent changes: After the bemoaned tgm changes, a tgm build can make due with 2 attacks for a fully functional build and for all their attacking and proccing needs. After the last two melee overhauls HW or bestial now require 3 attacks to function, but for HW that can still end up with builds with strong functional limitations now that Enrage has changed. So for a HW build that has nicely functional single target and AoE and can make use of the in set synergies and forms, you rather have 4 attacks now. And then you also want a lunge for melee, leaving very little room very some utility.
Also "it happened" and "it was needed" are really not things that will ever convince someone that disagrees with a change like this. You might think it was needed, but there is no objectivity there. The addition of the knockdown to the Arc of Ruin adv also shows that "it happened" was not the end of it at all. And while I think it's as much of a concession as HW will get, it's also very restrictive to put that on the adv that refreshes CF.
Either way, I think I've made my point enough now. I don't think this change is something that improves balance, or improves CO, or makes things more fun, or improves anything else. It looks more like a spreadsheet thing to me.
Enrage used to not be a toggled form at all. It was a buff you could stack using attacks from might and HW, or by using the enrage power which was just single target version of howl but which could also stack enrage. The toggle to go with that was aggressor. The HW powers that stacked enrage were cleave and skewer, and eruption refreshed it. So it's always been a HW thing since HW was added to CO.