So is Vorcious Darkness useless now?

aesica

Seems since the patch hit, Voracious Darkness now costs 3 advantage points and only stacks to 5. Was Blizzard Entertainment involved here? Because this feels like a massive overnerf. My dark-sorceress-themed character is having a really hard time justifying taking Ebon Void over something more overused, like Force Shield + Sheath. How unfortunate.

So uh yeah, as the title implies, is Voracious Darkness still worth having, or is it (and Ebon Void in general) done for?

avianos

It still worth it!
That +10% bonus all damage resistance which stack 5 Times is still really useful!

If I remember well the damage resistance resistance goes before the Defensive Layer bonus, that's why its very good for Tanks and DPS

If you have 3 points to spare I still recomment using it, i kept mine to one of the my characters​​

aiqa

At 10 stacks it used to lower incoming damage by 50%, at 5 stacks it lowers incoming damage by 33%. That is all independent of additional damage resistance from defense or your passive or such since voracious darkness is block resistance. Costing 3 adv points and limiting to 5 stacks has reduced VD from being brokenly overpowered to just good.

aesica

Well here's the (still work-in-progress) build I was using it with. It was really more of a theme power than something meant for an OP tank. If I give up the points I was going to reserve for travel powers, I can still take it. Hmm, I'll think about it while I go to sleep or something.

roughbearmattach

It was heavily nerfed, probably in response to heavily it was overused.

Conviction, I suspect, will be next.

avianos

roughbearmattach wrote: »

Conviction, I suspect, will be next.

Oh shut it, it already got nerfed with Global Cooldown nerf​​

chaosdrgnz43

avianos said:

roughbearmattach wrote: »

Conviction, I suspect, will be next.

Oh shut it, it already got nerfed with Global Cooldown nerf​​

Knowing how the devs are altering powers, it won't surprise me if they did. Conviction is prob the best self-heal next to BCR and Bionic Shielding.

pantagruel01

I have builds with VD. I don't expect to remove it. It's more situational than it used to be, but it's still a good power, and ebon void is one of the better blocks even without VD, the healing is surprisingly relevant.

bluhman

Even on my darkness DPS build I still decided to take the advantage, because already my advantage points were thrown off-balance by the 1-point advantage on Ebon Ruin.

Like others have said, having that substantial of a defense buff, both lingering after a block and while blocking, is extremely good. Even in its current state it blows the Psi-Shield advantage out of the water, which totally justifies the higher AP cost.

morigosa

Personally, I just wish things like Laser Knight provided a comparable benefit; yeah, it's auto-activate versus requiring blocking... but it's also got that built in damage nerf that Voracious Darkness doesn't.

Oh well. Outside of TA you don't really need Ebon Void on a tank. And inside of TA... I've pretty much stopped caring; the fights are boring and the rewards aren't worth the time.

rtma

What is his Hyperbole? it's far from useless.

pantagruel01

morigosa said:

Personally, I just wish things like Laser Knight provided a comparable benefit

Laser Knight is +33% (in the block layer); it's actually pretty solid. Elusive Monk is less convincing.

morigosa

pantagruel01 said:

Elusive Monk is less convincing.

Elusive Monk is pretty much there for 100% dodge tanks. Of course, it only lasts three seconds after making a melee attack, which means that any fight featuring knock spam (like, say, pretty much all of TA...) has a decent chance of auto-killing a dodge tank that relies on Elusive Monk. (Yes, it does come with some knock resistance. No, knock resistance doesn't work*.)

_____
* I mean this in the practical sense, not the mathematical sense. Knock resistance clearly does reduce the chance for any given attack to apply its knock effect. Unfortunately, the practical result is that, no matter how much knock resistance you have, you will still get flung around like a ping pong ball - just maybe not quite as soon into the fight.

bluhman

EM also is really good for passive knock resistance, which LK doesn't get. The fact that its benefits scale up with DEX make it really useful for (the admittedly rare) DEX-based melee builds that need that knock mitigation to stay up close.

pantagruel01

bluhman said:

EM also is really good for passive knock resistance, which LK doesn't get.

Yes it does. They both grant +33%, far as I know.

avianos

bluhman wrote: »

EM also is really good for passive knock resistance, which LK doesn't get. The fact that its benefits scale up with DEX make it really useful for (the admittedly rare) DEX-based melee builds that need that knock mitigation to stay up close.

Actually Bluhman, check the updated description of Laser Knight!
33% resistance to knock effects
It always gave Knock Resistance! Who knew? I didn't until yesterday! and I ADORE this Shield​​

roughbearmattach

My toons with Voracious Darkness still have it, along with "-2 Advantage Points".

Looks like the change was glitched.

bluhman

everyone said:

hey it actually does

oh

my bad then!

pantagruel01

roughbearmattach said:

My toons with Voracious Darkness still have it, along with "-2 Advantage Points".

Looks like the change was glitched.

No, that's the normal way it works -- the game doesn't remove the advantage, it just considers the character invalid so if you visit the PH and try to change your powers it will force-retcon you.

roughbearmattach

pantagruel01 said:

roughbearmattach said:

My toons with Voracious Darkness still have it, along with "-2 Advantage Points".

Looks like the change was glitched.

No, that's the normal way it works -- the game doesn't remove the advantage, it just considers the character invalid so if you visit the PH and try to change your powers it will force-retcon you.

On my HW toons, the powers were removed. I then could re-add them or take new powers.

This also means that by not visiting the PH--which I might not do on a level 40 toon anyway, I get to keep the old version of the power.

avianos

roughbearmattach wrote: »

On my HW toons, the powers were removed. I then could re-add them or take new powers.

This also means that by not visiting the PH--which I might not do on a level 40 toon anyway, I get to keep the old version of the power.

My HW got a Free Retcon, and not a Forced one!
Check it out, you should have a free retcon in your HW characters as well

I Got Annihilate back without wasting the Free Retcon!​​

aesica

avianos said:

My HW got a Free Retcon, and not a Forced one!

Check it out, you should have a free retcon in your HW characters as well



I Got Annihilate back without wasting the Free Retcon!​​

Unfortunately, my character in question was only 35 and at -1 advantage points. Something somewhere in the game indicated that I couldn't acquire any new powers until I took my retcon...so I did.

I'd like to hear from someone using the current incarnation of Ebon Void + Voracious Darkness about whether or not it's still good. While the character's build does have advantage points left over, I was hoping to use them on travel powers or luxury stuff, but if VD is still decent...then yeah. Easy come, easy go I guess.

kallethen

chaosdrgnz43 wrote: »

Knowing how the devs are altering powers, it won't surprise me if they did. Conviction is prob the best self-heal next to BCR and Bionic Shielding.

Conviction is only used as much as it is because we don't have many options for a self-heal that works in an instant. BCR and Reconstructive Circuits are HoT and Bionic Shielding heals small amounts when you are attacked. Conviction is the only one and done self-heal.

Granted, I'm not counting Resurgence, but that's an AD with a long cooldown. It's more of an "oh scrap!" button. Also, there is the new Absorb Heat power, but I've not played with it yet to determine how good it is. But by it's description, you need to setup for it to be effective (lay down those Clinging Flames).

IMO, we don't necessarily need to nerf Conviction. We need more options for one-shot self-heals.​​

flowcyto

kallethen said:

IMO, we don't necessarily need to nerf Conviction. We need more options for one-shot self-heals.​​

Yea, pretty much. Conviction's sustained hps isn't amazing- it just does it all upfront w/o channeling/charging anything. Add more short-cd self-heals that are thematic for various things and you'll see Convction's use in FF builds drop notably.

raighn

kallethen said:

chaosdrgnz43 said:

Knowing how the devs are altering powers, it won't surprise me if they did. Conviction is prob the best self-heal next to BCR and Bionic Shielding.

Conviction is only used as much as it is because we don't have many options for a self-heal that works in an instant. BCR and Reconstructive Circuits are HoT and Bionic Shielding heals small amounts when you are attacked. Conviction is the only one and done self-heal.

Granted, I'm not counting Resurgence, but that's an AD with a long cooldown. It's more of an "oh scrap!" button. Also, there is the new Absorb Heat power, but I've not played with it yet to determine how good it is. But by it's description, you need to setup for it to be effective (lay down those Clinging Flames).

IMO, we don't necessarily need to nerf Conviction. We need more options for one-shot self-heals.​​

Bionic Shielding isn't even a self heal, its a targeted heal that many people use as a self heal... Recon Circuits is only usable by Power Armor builds... and the only self heals you didn't mention yet are Holdout Shot w/Stimpack, which requires an enemy to work and is very theme oriented... Enrage w/ Endorphin rush which only works for builds that can use Enrage and have stacks and stacks of Con... Quarry w/Fair Game which has COs clunky "on kill" mechanic and heals for so little that it's not worth sacrificing R3 for...

So while we do have several self heal options only Conviction is a truely viable and solid self heal, and even it has its own set of problems... it only heals for an upwards of like 528 without bonus healing and it's got the highest base energy cost of all self heals... so I really don't see Conviction getting a nerf any time soon... We'd need a broader array of reliable self heals before that happend.

pantagruel01

I'd 'nerf' conviction by changing it from 0.5s activation with a short cd to 1s activation with no cd. Would make it way more viable for what it's actually meant for

raighn

pantagruel01 said:

I'd 'nerf' conviction by changing it from 0.5s activation with a short cd to 1s activation with no cd. Would make it way more viable for what it's actually meant for

That is both increadibly evil and a horrible idea... increadibly evil because of all the Conviction + MSA builds it will break (and I will laugh about that).... horrible idea because of just how much healing you'd allow MSA to heal by doing that... 500HPS is actually pretty damn strong, and there are till many non-MSA buids that use Conviction and could spam it endlessly with such a change.

aesica

raighn said:

kallethen said:

chaosdrgnz43 said:

Knowing how the devs are altering powers, it won't surprise me if they did. Conviction is prob the best self-heal next to BCR and Bionic Shielding.

Conviction is only used as much as it is because we don't have many options for a self-heal that works in an instant. BCR and Reconstructive Circuits are HoT and Bionic Shielding heals small amounts when you are attacked. Conviction is the only one and done self-heal.

Granted, I'm not counting Resurgence, but that's an AD with a long cooldown. It's more of an "oh scrap!" button. Also, there is the new Absorb Heat power, but I've not played with it yet to determine how good it is. But by it's description, you need to setup for it to be effective (lay down those Clinging Flames).

IMO, we don't necessarily need to nerf Conviction. We need more options for one-shot self-heals.​​

Bionic Shielding isn't even a self heal, its a targeted heal that many people use as a self heal... Recon Circuits is only usable by Power Armor builds... and the only self heals you didn't mention yet are Holdout Shot w/Stimpack, which requires an enemy to work and is very theme oriented... Enrage w/ Endorphin rush which only works for builds that can use Enrage and have stacks and stacks of Con... Quarry w/Fair Game which has COs clunky "on kill" mechanic and heals for so little that it's not worth sacrificing R3 for...

So while we do have several self heal options only Conviction is a truely viable and solid self heal, and even it has its own set of problems... it only heals for an upwards of like 528 without bonus healing and it's got the highest base energy cost of all self heals... so I really don't see Conviction getting a nerf any time soon... We'd need a broader array of reliable self heals before that happend.

Don't forget Lifedrain and Devour Essence, although both are in a similar category with Holdout Shot + Stimpack in that they require an enemy to work.

Anyway in general, yeah I really don't think Conviction needs a nerf--it's only popular because it has so few true competitors due to its unique nature. The temporary hit points it supposedly provides could probably go away though, considering they drop off immediately if something hits you, regardless of the damage.

avianos

I would like to see MORE thematic self healings instead of nerfing Conviction!
Unless we get EVEN MORE of them, i don't want to hear anything about nerfing convction

People seem to think that Conviction is perfect, well... ITS NOT!

1. High Cost (MMMM YES! I love that 60+ Energy Cost)
2. Cooldown which with the Global Cooldown Nerf was made even more noticeable
3. In DPS roles (Melee and Range) it gives you Leftover Healings (WOW this 500 Healing is REALLY useful for its cost price you guys...)
4. It need to Critical Hit to be good
5. You need to have PRE, Compassion or Bonus Healing for it to Be good
6. Horrible Aura (suffering with the default blue as well)
7. It's AoE healing ADV is rubish even in my Support builds with Compassion
8. its HP BUFF is a rubish and doesn't even work for Inquity

Conviction is also one of the few Theme-Neutral healing powers, you just Flex and Survive, you are Determined to live!
The annoying visual aura will just go away once you get hit, no biggie

The only nerf I can think is to make Conviction Cooldown NOT being effected by CDR cooldown, and I wouldn't mind because I will STILL use it!
All my builds have 2 self healings powers, I don't trust my survability on OTHERS

raighn wrote: »

increadibly evil because of all the Conviction + MSA builds it will break (and I will laugh about that)

You and me Both!
I ALWAYS hated the build mentality of using only Convction for triggering MSA

its... HORRIBLE! Look how much conviction costs
MSA exist for builds with Multiple CD Powers, not just one!

raighn wrote: »

Bionic Shielding isn't even a self heal, its a targeted heal that many people use as a self heal.

You can make it target only yourself
Just uncheck the option, assist ally on targetting​​

roughbearmattach

I don't think every toon/set need a thematic self-heal.

Anyway, I ran a toon with the new version of Voracious Darkness. It is not as good as before, but the stacks build and you get some defense. I think it performs better for defense than Force Sheath or TK Shield, though you have to wait to build up the stacks, unlike the other two persistent blocks.

kallethen

I agree we don't need a thematic heal in every powerset. It just would be nice if we had a few options for a one-click only self-targeting heal power..​​

aesica

kallethen said:

I agree we don't need a thematic heal in every powerset. It just would be nice if we had a few options for a one-click only self-targeting heal power..​​

As much as I'd like this, it'd only be a good thing if they all shared a cooldown of sorts. Otherwise, you could stack conviction + new self heal A + new self heal B + new self Heal C side by side, roll your face across the keyboard, and recover a pretty large chunk of life (at the cost of several power slots, but still).

Similar to how all active offense or active defense powers trigger a shared cooldown, these self heals would need something similar.

roughbearmattach said:

Anyway, I ran a toon with the new version of Voracious Darkness. It is not as good as before, but the stacks build and you get some defense. I think it performs better for defense than Force Sheath or TK Shield, though you have to wait to build up the stacks, unlike the other two persistent blocks.

Thanks, this is what I was hoping for. I still took Ebon Void on that character because it really fits the theme, but I decided I'd keep VD near the top of the power stack so I could remove it, just in case.

raighn

Honestly I've always felt Ebon Void w/Voracious Darkness was mostly useless... really for most builds your better off using Force Shield w/Force Sheathe or TK Shield w/TK Reinforcement... For melee builds that can afford the DPS hit Energy Shield w/Laser Knight or Parry w/Elusive Monk are still better options than EV w/VD... EV w/VD is only of any actual use on a tank with a solid grasps of aggro... You have to be able to manage atleast 5s of continuous blocking without losing aggro to get the 5 stacks needed for the +50% resistance block AND still have aggro when you go to block again every 10s to refresh the stacks... and thats all assuming that something unexpected doesn't happen to prevent you from being hit when you go to block again, like enemies getting held, or boss charging up an attack that doesn't go off until right after your stacks fall off... Voracious Darkness is just so situational to maintain that it's just not worth the effort in the vast majority of situations, and you can't even just tap it for a single stack linger... you absolutely MUST be hit while blocking or it does nothing.

Also, I've seen many people claim that the heal from EV carry's over with VD... I have NEVER seen proof of this... I've tested repeatedly and it has not once carried over.

friezaliveson

flowcyto said:

kallethen said:

IMO, we don't necessarily need to nerf Conviction. We need more options for one-shot self-heals.​​

Yea, pretty much. Conviction's sustained hps isn't amazing- it just does it all upfront w/o channeling/charging anything. Add more short-cd self-heals that are thematic for various things and you'll see Convction's use in FF builds drop notably.

^^ This. I'd kill for a mechanic similar to the Battlefield 3 medkit where you drop it and it heals yourself and team mates around you but you have to very, very close to it.

Holy Water is fine if you have better gear but you have to have it target yourself for it to heal you, atm, for my healer it heals back 800+ HP over the seconds it active.