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Negation - Needs a re-balance!!! VASTLY out performs ANY other armor enchant...

ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
edited June 2015 in PvP Discussion
As the title says, Negation providing a 30% DR boost is INSANE! It vastly out performs ALL other enchants by a LARGE margin.

Previously (up until today's patch) I would say it was MANDATORY to keep as is, however now that ARP resistance is going to mitigate an opponents 80% RI, it makes this enchant EVEN MORE powerful.


I think the easiest solution to make this more "on par" with the rest would be to look at changing it to a "full" uptime buff that also has a downtime as well.

So what it could look like is MORE like the initial enchant, however it needs to have a decent uptime for it to be reliable.

Transcendent Negation:
When you receive damage you have a 25% chance to gain a 30% DR boost for 15 seconds. You also gain 10% incoming healing and recovery for the duration of the buff. This effect cannot happen more than once every 30 seconds.

So this provides the buff with about a 50% uptime. This ALSO helps drastically in PVE since you now have a better chance of having the FULL buff up all at once.

This provides the enchant with a "downtime" so that is the ideal time in PVP to apply a burst. This will STILL be powerful however not AS powerful as others and you will start to see more diversity in PVP.


On a side note: SoulForged heal should NOT be affected by healing depression because it is bringing you back alive. Once you go down, you should have HD removed then when it pops you back up, it would heal for the FULL amount on the tooltip, making this enchant much better as well.

Then you will start to see more players using: Negation or SF or Elven.

Another that could be looked at is Thunderhead - this stun needs to have a massive upgrade in the duration of the stun (like 4-5 seconds) because in PVP with CC resist it lasts for almost NO time at all. The stun should be a VERY noticeable stun with an INCREASED range on the stun (should be the distance of a PVP node). Making IT a possibility as well.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • rebellionstuffrebellionstuff Member Posts: 237 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2015
    i agree completely. hopefully the devs will see this.
  • gomok72gomok72 Member Posts: 616 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    If you apply enough damage before 30 hits, you will not reach the 30 stacks on negation, also Rouge's damage is exempt from this because shadowy and piercing damage seems to not be affected by the DR of this enchant. GF's burst damage is so high in instances while you might get off 10-12 stacks it usually = your still dead if your not a tank class with high base DR and hitpoints. The only classes so far that I seem to demolish with this enchant shrugging off their damage are HR, SW and some CW.

    You want to beat negation, focus fire the target with heavy burst.
    I may not be considered by most the BEST PVP Warlock on the server but, I am the most HATED amongst them.

    -Kymos
  • rebellionstuffrebellionstuff Member Posts: 237 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2015
    gomok72 wrote: »
    If you apply enough damage before 30 hits, you will not reach the 30 stacks on negation, also Rouge's damage is exempt from this because shadowy and piercing damage seems to not be affected by the DR of this enchant. GF's burst Negation enchant's benefits. The only classes so far that I seem to demolish with this enchant shrugging off their damage are HR, SW and some CW. "

    i agree but this enchant is really powerful otherwise. gwf trying to build stacks also struggles.
  • gomok72gomok72 Member Posts: 616 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    I wanted to add also, if you get a group that has full transcended on and the main tank has a "HOLY AVENGER" enchant, good luck killing the group.

    HOLY AVENGER will give them and extra 20% DR (and good heals coupled with negation's 1% healing bonus) on top of their base DR and the 30% DR. I had a overall 95% DR ( procced buff) the day before yesterday with a Paladin that had this in a GG group. I felt like a PURE tank/DPS tanking GWF, I ended up with 34 kills and 4 deaths in GG without a healer, so a synergetic problem could be an issue of un-killable comps using both these enchants.
    I may not be considered by most the BEST PVP Warlock on the server but, I am the most HATED amongst them.

    -Kymos
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  • quspivquspiv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,087 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    DR on Negation is fine, but like i said in other thread it should come in a trade. Make it lower the dmg by 0.5% for every 1 or 1.5% of DR increase.
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  • martianmnhuntermartianmnhunter Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 236 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    useless thread is useless, coming from a GWF with avalanche feat.

    Trying to find more ways to get himself even more stronger against magic classes lol.
  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    gomok72 wrote: »
    If you apply enough damage before 30 hits, you will not reach the 30 stacks on negation, also Rouge's damage is exempt from this because shadowy and piercing damage seems to not be affected by the DR of this enchant. GF's burst damage is so high in instances while you might get off 10-12 stacks it usually = your still dead if your not a tank class with high base DR and hitpoints. The only classes so far that I seem to demolish with this enchant shrugging off their damage are HR, SW and some CW.

    You want to beat negation, focus fire the target with heavy burst.

    Not all classes can burst, plus some classes use DoTs, plus it's 10 stacks 3% each, not 30, if i'm not mistaken.

    HR trapper cannot do what you say.
    DoT SW cannot do what you say.
    GWF cannot do what you say cause needs to stack, go unstoppable, stack more, then burst. By that time, negation is full up at 30% even without PF.

    And so on.

    It's still way above other enchants.

    Barkshield charges give lower mitigation and can be depleted easily where negations stacks are absolute.
    Soulforged is resurrect at 10k+ HP every 75 seconds vs 30% DR pretty much always up.
    And so on.

    As ayroux said. It outperforms other enchants by far.
    Don't want a nerf? Fine. Buff other enchants.

    Barkshield charges increased and made of % of total HP+ unused HP on low damage transferred to the next charge.
    Soulforged resurrect at 40% PvE-20% PvP with healing depression, and cooldown reduced to 30s when killed by another player.

    And so on.

    You fine with this? Cause it's the only way to bring a 75s resurrection at 10k+ HP on par with a 30% DR on separate layer always up .
  • crusherbeastcrusherbeast Member Posts: 426 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    ayroux wrote: »
    As the title says, Negation providing a 30% DR boost is INSANE! It vastly out performs ALL other enchants by a LARGE margin.

    Previously (up until today's patch) I would say it was MANDATORY to keep as is, however now that ARP resistance is going to mitigate an opponents 80% RI, it makes this enchant EVEN MORE powerful.


    I think the easiest solution to make this more "on par" with the rest would be to look at changing it to a "full" uptime buff that also has a downtime as well.

    So what it could look like is MORE like the initial enchant, however it needs to have a decent uptime for it to be reliable.

    Transcendent Negation:
    When you receive damage you have a 25% chance to gain a 30% DR boost for 15 seconds. You also gain 10% incoming healing and recovery for the duration of the buff. This effect cannot happen more than once every 30 seconds.

    So this provides the buff with about a 50% uptime. This ALSO helps drastically in PVE since you now have a better chance of having the FULL buff up all at once.

    This provides the enchant with a "downtime" so that is the ideal time in PVP to apply a burst. This will STILL be powerful however not AS powerful as others and you will start to see more diversity in PVP.


    On a side note: SoulForged heal should NOT be affected by healing depression because it is bringing you back alive. Once you go down, you should have HD removed then when it pops you back up, it would heal for the FULL amount on the tooltip, making this enchant much better as well.

    Then you will start to see more players using: Negation or SF or Elven.

    Another that could be looked at is Thunderhead - this stun needs to have a massive upgrade in the duration of the stun (like 4-5 seconds) because in PVP with CC resist it lasts for almost NO time at all. The stun should be a VERY noticeable stun with an INCREASED range on the stun (should be the distance of a PVP node). Making IT a possibility as well.

    Buy negation and problem solved. Soul was op until mod 6 and i did not see any problem with that. Any other enchant was a joke especially in pve while compared with soul. Make one and that's it.
    Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools)
    Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
    Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
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  • rebellionstuffrebellionstuff Member Posts: 237 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2015
    Buy negation and problem solved. Soul was op until mod 6 and i did not see any problem with that. Any other enchant was a joke especially in pve while compared with soul. Make one and that's it.

    i cant get above lessers and i have epic everything working on legendarys. its too expensive id rather work on marks at least i have a possibility of affording those. my leadership farm only makes 50k ad max a day currently. and thats when im not farming the resources for leadership.
  • gomok72gomok72 Member Posts: 616 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    pando83 wrote: »
    Not all classes can burst, plus some classes use DoTs, plus it's 10 stacks 3% each, not 30, if i'm not mistaken.

    HR trapper cannot do what you say.
    DoT SW cannot do what you say.
    GWF cannot do what you say cause needs to stack, go unstoppable, stack more, then burst. By that time, negation is full up at 30% even without PF.

    And so on.

    It's still way above other enchants.

    Barkshield charges give lower mitigation and can be depleted easily where negations stacks are absolute.
    Soulforged is resurrect at 10k+ HP every 75 seconds vs 30% DR pretty much always up.
    And so on.

    As ayroux said. It outperforms other enchants by far.
    Don't want a nerf? Fine. Buff other enchants.

    Barkshield charges increased and made of % of total HP+ unused HP on low damage transferred to the next charge.
    Soulforged resurrect at 40% PvE-20% PvP with healing depression, and cooldown reduced to 30s when killed by another player.

    And so on.

    You fine with this? Cause it's the only way to bring a 75s resurrection at 10k+ HP on par with a 30% DR on separate layer always up .

    You didn't understand what I wrote and yeah that's suppose to be 30% not stacks, I said damage I basically can "Shrug off" and actually get my full 30% are, CW,GWF, HR and SW, probably now Paladins since they nerfed their dailies (which was needed).
    I may not be considered by most the BEST PVP Warlock on the server but, I am the most HATED amongst them.

    -Kymos
  • ucanthandleucanthandle Member Posts: 211 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    People should have the option to be tanky. Everyone can get negation so its not like just one or two people can get it. Negation may become the "pvp armor enchant" while sf becomes the "pve armor enchant." I actually enjoy games where people are tanky and its not just about a stomp fest. Having abilities with knockback and cc become more strategic. Just blasting abilities as they pop at high end game should not work. Anything in game that causes a person to think about what they use rather than just pushing a button is a plus in my book. This enchant makes people actually time abilities instead of just blasting randomly.
  • quspivquspiv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,087 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    People should have the option to be tanky. Everyone can get negation so its not like just one or two people can get it. Negation may become the "pvp armor enchant" while sf becomes the "pve armor enchant." I actually enjoy games where people are tanky and its not just about a stomp fest. Having abilities with knockback and cc become more strategic. Just blasting abilities as they pop at high end game should not work. Anything in game that causes a person to think about what they use rather than just pushing a button is a plus in my book. This enchant makes people actually time abilities instead of just blasting randomly.

    Perfect Negation cost around 8-10kk AD, only small % of population can afford it. Trans Negation cost even more. Unless they make this enchant 5x cheaper people will complain because not everybody abused bugs, exploits, bots or spent 80h+ a week creating new accounts and characters for leadership army.


    Besides it's nice to have some variety instead of everybody running after most broken items.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    crappy design= crappy game
    as i can read some people want to stick with overbuffed crappy enchants, and sets and artifact,and classes...
    go on and dream about beeing a great PVP player using Lostmauthset, wheel and T negation, lol to these player
    Perfect Negation cost around 8-10kk AD, only small % of population can afford it. Trans Negation cost even more. Unless they make this enchant 5x cheaper people will complain because not everybody abused bugs, exploits, bots or spent 80h+ a week creating new accounts and characters for leadership army.

    if you knew how many use this enchant you would not post this
  • vasdamasvasdamas Member Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Idk, negation seems to ok to me as long as my opponent isn't running t.negation + t.feytouched. That may make anyone pretty much...mad.
  • mjytreszmjytresz Member Posts: 500 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Buy negation and problem solved. Soul was op until mod 6 and i did not see any problem with that. Any other enchant was a joke especially in pve while compared with soul. Make one and that's it.

    The logic behind that is the problem.
    We have, what, a dozen armor enchants and 11/12 of them are useless.
    To counter this, your only solution is "Abuse the flawed mechanics or gtfo"?

    I'm pretty glad I stopped playing now.
    Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?

    Go Cryptic!
    PS - I quit.
  • group5egroup5e Member Posts: 294 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Buy negation and problem solved. Soul was op until mod 6 and i did not see any problem with that. Any other enchant was a joke especially in pve while compared with soul. Make one and that's it.

    You forget that Lesser Soulforge was ALL you really needed in most cases in pvp unless it was purely for the aesthetics. Lets compare shall we?

    Lesser Soulforged- 400-800k AD
    Trans. Negation- 10-12 million AD

    Yes. I see the similarities now.

    Making one can be incredibly time consuming now that running dungeons isn't a very good idea due to the "design" of them. Not to mention buying shards is very expensive now too.

    I'm just pointing out that making a flippant remark like "Buy negation and problem solved." is a little simplistic... but... maybe that's just me xD.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Lesser Soulforged- 400-800k AD
    Trans. Negation- 10-12 million AD
    Yes. I see the similarities now.

    peanuts...

    lesser SF is more 400k AD never was 800k
  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    The entire purpose of this thread was to highlight that there is ONE enchant that FAR exceeds the others.

    Armor enchants have NEVER been so critical to a build. Look at some of the others and you will see, none of them are "mandatory" for PVP.

    Also to someones point about "burst" this, to me, seems ignorant since even just an overload slot - nearly any one you pick - will have some sort of DoT attached to it, or even if you use like GPF or a myriad of enchants within SECONDS a person is max stacks. The "stacking" is just a fallacy to hide behind because in PVP its up near 100% of the time.

    GWFs have a feat that does the same thing but its 1% stacks 15 times, that too is up near 100% of the time just from random Dots. Heck even an opponent attacking YOU who gets hit with feythistle will build stacks... So thats just silly to basically say "L2P"


    And to the person saying "just buy it" I HAVE it lol. I have a Trans Neg. When the mod first hit I was thankful for it because without it, GWFs would be worthless - nearly like last module.

    But now with ARP Resist, the ability to have this extra 30% DR near 100% of the time is MASSIVE and considering Arp Res will increase everyone tanky levels ALOT, combined with how this enchant out performs others by ALOT, it really needs to get toned back....

    I could settle for it making opponants instead deal less damage rather than added DR, in reality, NO enchant has 100% uptime and I think that is really where the issue stems from. The only 1 that does is Elven. ALL the others have a CD on their effect and SO DID THIS until this module.

    It just got over buffed and before it was worthless BECAUSE it had too long of a downtime. I think it was up only 15 seconds every minute or something.

    Well now they went the other way, with near 100% uptime. So do something in the middle.

    50% uptime. FULL buff @ 30% DR for X seconds with X seconds CD. Now its balanced. Now it DOES require you to "burst them" when the buff is off.

    Heck I would even be in favor of giving the buff a LONGER CD, but working like HA and it buffs your TEAM. This way it wouldnt be beneficial to have EVERYONE using Negation.
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  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    metalldjt wrote: »
    welp there are different ways to fix it

    1: make the stacks work like Rampagin madness: 1stack Per second, once you reach 10 stacks you can have it up for 10 seconds and it will repeat the procces.
    2. leave it as it is, but instead of 3%DR you get 1.5% DR = 15% DR
    3. fix incoming healing bonus and recovery from it.

    Yeah although #1 would be kinda weird.

    I guess if it was 15 stacks, uptime = 10 seconds or something it could work... This would atleast give a "window to attack"
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    folks, even a permanent 10%+ damageresist will make this enchant be viable and strong but 30%, the one who desigend this must have been very very drunken
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  • vasdamasvasdamas Member Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Buff the other armor enchantments, even if we have negation enchantments "adjusted" (basically nerfed) like you want the rest armor enchantments would still pale comparing to an usefulness of weapon enchantments. Leave negation alone, buff BARKSHIELD, frostburn, fireburst, bloodtheft, thunderhead and briartwine. And, in the name of the nine gates, please, make buff them so they won't multiproc/pierce through tenacity/DR thanks :)
    Soulforged and Elven Battle seem ok to me to be honest, there are some builds that would shine with it and do just OK against anyone with negation.
    greyloche wrote: »
    or he just did a PvP match against a TR

    oh look, that TR has negation now too lol
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  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    cryptic will never be able to buff all other enchants in an acceptable time to make them compareable to a 30% !! DR-buff
    my warlock has 12% DR, so having 42% is a 300% improvement, thats redicules imo
    having a DC with +40% DR he gets 70%, he even does not need any empowerd AS to perform
    so the gap gets bigger and bigger, classes that can negate DR or have piercing damage can perform, other don´t
    tone it down
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  • vasdamasvasdamas Member Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    metalldjt wrote: »
    you guys never heard of tonning down?
    That's pretty something my class suffers since m5. Or no...wait...since m0.
    And pointed out why buff > nerf in terms of armor enchantments. They are just not as useful as weapon enchantment are so they need some buff imo
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