This thread has been an awesome discussion and I hope it keeps going more in that direction. The class warfare stuff is interesting but doesn't really belong.
ELO would match everyone VERY FAIRLY if you felt like waiting over an hour sometimes in que. There are just not enough people playing pvp on dragon. Most of you guys should know this. There needs to be separate ques, one for pugs and one for premades. This is mandatory for fair matchmaking. The que would simply put any group of more than two into the premade que.
Originally Posted by kweassa View Post
The guy doesn't do any IWD. What these self-described "best of the best" do, is that they coax some of the best players in various guilds into making a "we cream everyone esle" troll PvP guild, and then use it to fill their own egos. You think they care about balance or ever really play in a balanced environment? You don't know how those guy operate. I do. I was one of them 15 years ago. Nothing's changed since then.
All of their stats are basically "rigged" in the sense that they don't have any real competition. Basically what they do is the equivalent of bringing together an all-star MLB team, and then pit them against a variety of teams between little league ~ college baeball. Even members of famous PvP guilds aren't all strong. In many cases even the premades a PvP guild makes, includes a variety of skill level (although they are still way better than average PuGs). The teams those types of people make, don't. They only, and always, operate under "all-star level" teams.
Basically its a monopoly of talent and then they use all of its combined might to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and shi* on other people to prove one's own superiority. That's what the "1000 kills 2 deaths" type of scores are in the leaderboard. They will abuse every know bug, every known exploit if there is such a thing in existence, and they will stop at nothing to preserve their scores. Look at page1 and you'll see its all from the same, one guild.
It's always the same in any game. Some egomaniac thinks its gonna be fun to gather only the best of best and run a long winning streak. Nothing different here as well.
Not even the best of the best can manage such a score/rank if they put themselves under the mercy of total solo, random queues. There's only so much one person -- however good -- can carry. When the team sucks your K/D may can be unscathed, but you still lose the match, and therefore your rank falls. In a very strange twist of irony, ultimately the solo, random queue is the only real measure of skill, and the only situation where it is totally fair. Everything is random for every member, hence, totally fair.
T
hat is so wonderfully off-topic lol. That is reality though. Some play to have fun some play to win. Look at Sean Smith, a US diplomat and one of the best ever at a game that attracts mainly "play to win" types, "Eve Online". Super high functioning individuals who simply cannot stop the internal alpha drive. The guy died doing his job, can't say much bad about that. People who play to win will win, people who play to have fun will have fun.
Your point seems to be screaming for separate premade/pug ques.
What he says pretty much sums it up though and separate premade/pugs would solve the issue that premade could face eachother with less hassle but it would not stop those bis made premade from queuing to stomp others as that is the major reason they form their elite community.
In for example Age of Conan they solved a bit of the problem with making it impossible to sign up with anybody making it random what group you ended up in and then made a separate system for premade vs premade.
Otherwise i totally agree with what he wrote and has exactly the same experiance..
Fact: No other class ever has had the ability to kill other classes while completely invisible, on node. There is no defense to that. The closest ever was aimed shot from forest ghost. I was maxing 30k crits with that, but it required max distance to achieve that kind of damage, in other words, way far away from a node and during a very short stealth. Pure cheese yes and that isn't even viable at this point. The class got balanced.
Sure there are differences in "style" but the end result is similar - wiping out a group or person with ease - this has been happening with several other classes for a year.
Even today, good PvPers in several other classes (non-TR) can still one-shot others.
And I think I remember someone saying that in PvP you can see a stealthed TR if they get too close to you.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!" pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all." looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
I PVP a lot and as a CW, who is reasonably geared, I have noticed that Trickster rogues have become much much more deadly than in the previous module. It's really not fun being killed by a one shot. This is with wearing full purified gear with a damage resistance of 34%, especially given the rogue that did it had a miserably low arp. They are dominating in PVP now and frankly it is becoming boring.
For example, if one is not killed by a lashing blade then smoke bomb reduces HP down to half and then they go into stealth. I'm not even talking about high geared TRs either.
When they go out of stealth, it becomes more even, but when they one shot or two shot you then you know something is not quite right.
Whilst I do not advocate taking away their stealth, I really think the damage or the feats need to be looked out because they are OP right now.
My suggestion would be:
DAZING STRIKE, SMOKE BOMB, SHADOW STRIKE, IMPACT SHOT are the major problem; the dazing time should be reduce to 1 to 3 second max on players (like CW control) and players should be immune to daze effects for at least 8 second after being daze, so that will put a stop to one of major problem with TR abuse.
LASHING BLADE DPS should be reduce 60% HP on players and from Stealth to 20% critical severity instead of 50% on players.
IMPACT SHOT DPS should be reduce 60% HP on players.
What he says pretty much sums it up though and separate premade/pugs would solve the issue that premade could face eachother with less hassle but it would not stop those bis made premade from queuing to stomp others as that is the major reason they form their elite community.
In for example Age of Conan they solved a bit of the problem with making it impossible to sign up with anybody making it random what group you ended up in and then made a separate system for premade vs premade.
Otherwise i totally agree with what he wrote and has exactly the same experiance..
If more than two people qued as a party they would go automatically into the premade que.
Sure there are differences in "style" but the end result is similar - wiping out a group or person with ease - this has been happening with several other classes for a year.
Even today, good PvPers in several other classes (non-TR) can still one-shot others.
And I think I remember someone saying that in PvP you can see a stealthed TR if they get too close to you.
If your cursor just happens to flash across the stealthed tr you get a glimpse but thats it. Good luck with that. It is being one or two shot after being dazed from an opponent that is invisible. In other words it is a two shot with no possible defense.
1. Give tools to make them visible. All we have is lantern, which is a waste of artifact slot and the cooldown is abysmal. There should be encounters that would reveal hidden enemies. But hey, as there are no stealthed mobs in Neverwinter, I don't see that happening. It would be cool though.
2. Make damage instantly reveal them. Here however, slealth depletes by the percentage of health loss. I have no idea why devs had to change stealth into that from a fixed stealth loss per hit. Before that you could at least deplete TR's stealth with quick at will attacks. Now you need to hit for half their hp to have a chance at that.
3. Make them squishy. Here however, 60% deflect rate and 88% deflect severity (with elixir and boon), CC immunity if you deflect, infinite dodges and perma stealth is not what I'd call squishy. Actual tanks here have way worse survivability.
One shots from TRs would be ok if you could see them coming and have a chance to dodge (if not CCd). But we can't and that's the major problem.
So...no deflect and no stealth...you just want to shoot fish in a barrel?
What the hell are you talking about? I never said that. I just listed a few different points of how other mmos deal with their assassin classes. Don't get so defensive for no reason.
And hey, currently any class is a fish in a barrel for TRs.
1. Give tools to make them visible. All we have is lantern, which is a waste of artifact slot and the cooldown is abysmal. There should be encounters that would reveal hidden enemies. But hey, as there are no stealthed mobs in Neverwinter, I don't see that happening. It would be cool though.
2. Make damage instantly reveal them. Here however, slealth depletes by the percentage of health loss. I have no idea why devs had to change stealth into that from a fixed stealth loss per hit. Before that you could at least deplete TR's stealth with quick at will attacks. Now you need to hit for half their hp to have a chance at that.
3. Make them squishy. Here however, 60% deflect rate and 88% deflect severity (with elixir and boon), CC immunity if you deflect, infinite dodges and perma stealth is not what I'd call squishy. Actual tanks here have way worse survivability.
One shots from TRs would be ok if you could see them coming and have a chance to dodge (if not CCd). But we can't and that's the major problem.
I think there are a ton of fixes, I just think the simplest one (in my mind, I know nothing about programming) is making pvp nodes no-stealth zones.
1. Give tools to make them visible. All we have is lantern, which is a waste of artifact slot and the cooldown is abysmal. There should be encounters that would reveal hidden enemies. But hey, as there are no stealthed mobs in Neverwinter, I don't see that happening. It would be cool though.
2. Make damage instantly reveal them. Here however, slealth depletes by the percentage of health loss. I have no idea why devs had to change stealth into that from a fixed stealth loss per hit. Before that you could at least deplete TR's stealth with quick at will attacks. Now you need to hit for half their hp to have a chance at that.
3. Make them squishy. Here however, 60% deflect rate and 88% deflect severity (with elixir and boon), CC immunity if you deflect, infinite dodges and perma stealth is not what I'd call squishy. Actual tanks here have way worse survivability.
One shots from TRs would be ok if you could see them coming and have a chance to dodge (if not CCd). But we can't and that's the major problem.
i'm fine with #1, #2 might break sabs since it's their entire build, and #3 is biased.
60% deflect rate requires such a hefty investment that your offensive stats are utter <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> for achieving it and your hp will be around 35k max no matter how heavily geared you are. the rogues with 50k or so hp will be around 40-50% deflect. we do get controlled even when we deflect and my rogue would be held for much longer if i didn't have elven battle to practically halve most wizard controls and hunter roots.
infinite dodges is impossible and tanks are actually tankier than deflect. a rogue trying to out-tank a guardian in block or a gwf in unstoppable will die 100% guaranteed. which is why we try to avoid ramming into their defensive mechanics.
The only change that Shadow of Demise needs is not to be stackable. No time proc or dmg source change.
And, please, fix it devs. Now it's not working WAI. Only the very first hit counts, not the following 6 secs.
And fix Last Moments as well. Not working either.
1. Give tools to make them visible. All we have is lantern, which is a waste of artifact slot and the cooldown is abysmal. There should be encounters that would reveal hidden enemies. But hey, as there are no stealthed mobs in Neverwinter, I don't see that happening. It would be cool though.
2. Make damage instantly reveal them. Here however, slealth depletes by the percentage of health loss. I have no idea why devs had to change stealth into that from a fixed stealth loss per hit. Before that you could at least deplete TR's stealth with quick at will attacks. Now you need to hit for half their hp to have a chance at that.
3. Make them squishy. Here however, 60% deflect rate and 88% deflect severity (with elixir and boon), CC immunity if you deflect, infinite dodges and perma stealth is not what I'd call squishy. Actual tanks here have way worse survivability.
One shots from TRs would be ok if you could see them coming and have a chance to dodge (if not CCd). But we can't and that's the major problem.
I have no problem with #1 or #2, although #2 would require a complete rework of Sab feats at least. Regarding stealth loss changes, it actually balances out. Less stealth loss from DoT attacks but more stealth loss from big hits. Overall it's similar to the old system.
#3 is unworkable unless you want to leave permastealth in the game. Also, those deflect numbers would mean a TR with zero offensive stats so I doubt you see that much in game. And deflect does not grant control immunity - it reduces control duration. Finally - no TR has infinite dodges. I specifically built for extra dodges (as a Scoundrel it's a big part of my defence) and I might get 4 in a row, depending on how fast I burn them.
Also, #2 would be problematic in a lot of ways: thorn ward, icy terrain, DoTs... it would be almost impossible for a TR to get into or stay in stealth ever. To compensate, TRs would need further damage or defensive buffs, and then you would still run around crying about uncontrollable, one-shotting TRs.
Note that also in other MMOs where any damage reveals the stealthed TR, stealth is a toggle that you can maintain indefinitely. Not a 5-7 secs stealth that needs to be constantly refreshed if you want to keep stealthed.
About nodes being no stealth zones, I think it would be easier to code that stealthed chars can't win a node. I think I've seen that in some other similar pvp modes in other MMOs
Note that also in other MMOs where any damage reveals the stealthed TR, stealth is a toggle that you can maintain indefinitely. Not a 5-7 secs stealth that needs to be constantly refreshed if you want to keep stealthed.
About nodes being no stealth zones, I think it would be easier to code that stealthed chars can't win a node. I think I've seen that in some other similar pvp modes in other MMOs
And yet in this MMO, you get a stealth refill every 15 secs from Saboteur capstone and stealth regeneration from Saboteur feats and Gloaming Cut, not to mention having Shadow Strike automatically refill the stealth bar.
This is in addition from being able to perpetually use entire ability sets from stealth and while stealthed the entire time.
Not to mention having a 100% crit rate while in stealth.
Long story short, I fully agree with any attack from a trickster breaking stealth. Either that, or increase stealth loss from damage while stealthed.
What would prevent TRs from attacking from outside the no-stealth zone? They've got a bunch of ranged powers as well. That would not fix anything.
Indeed it would. Kill faster on a node = the node is dominated by your team longer = more points = win. Survive longer on a node = the node is dominated by your team longer = more points = win. There are situations where you want to fight off node but they are not as common as the need to fight on node. So ya, the TR could range attack you while he is off node but being off node he is not directly contesting that node, not helping it change from red to blue or keeping it from going blue to red.
My suggestion does not ask for much. It isn't even a nerf.
Note that also in other MMOs where any damage reveals the stealthed TR, stealth is a toggle that you can maintain indefinitely. Not a 5-7 secs stealth that needs to be constantly refreshed if you want to keep stealthed.
About nodes being no stealth zones, I think it would be easier to code that stealthed chars can't win a node. I think I've seen that in some other similar pvp modes in other MMOs
That is a pretty good idea, that TR couldn't cap while stealthed, my problem though is that they can fairly easily clear a node of opponents. I like the idea of damage removing stealth altogether but with infinite stealth as a tradeoff. Great, simple, suggestions, thanks!
That is a pretty good idea, that TR couldn't cap while stealthed, my problem though is that they can fairly easily clear a node of opponents. I like the idea of damage removing stealth altogether but with infinite stealth as a tradeoff. Great, simple, suggestions, thanks!
Ahem, to start with. For people saying "a 12k rogue beat the crp out of me." Well to start off with, TR's have extremely low GS, based off of what i've seen with my CW and GWF, my CW has over 1k of GS that my TR would never get, and my GWF is higher than that. Something like 14k TR = 15k CW = 16k GWF. So TR GS is lower than most classes even when they might have decent gear, this also sucks when trying to get into a group for PVE. Second of all, vorp enchants are MASSIVE damage boosters for rogue with the stealth rework, especially for burst. So say for example, someone laid down their rogue for a couple of mods, picked it back up for M5 and slotted a Pvorp on it. A 12k TR with a Pvorp is going to be deadlier than a 16k one without, and it should hardly surprise anyone that there would be quite a few people doing exactly that. My point here being that GS is not a good measure of a player in general, and especially not of TRs, since the gear that makes them effective, doesn't stem that much from boosted stats.
Aside from things that are truly broken, such as DHS+stealth, and shadowy opportunity + bloodbath interaction, stealth as a form of node control has always been an issue. I'll laugh at anyone who says that TR's cannot be countered, that's BS. In fact, against a group of pugs, I did better against multiple opponents in M3. Winning 4vs1 against lower geared and lower skilled opponents doesn't happen like it could then. "TR's kill me in seconds now" Funny, becuase I see equally geared players of other classes have 0 trouble killing me in one rotation if i'm out of stealth and their attacks land.
TR's ARE squishy, in terms of sheer damage they can take, imho a CW with shield up is tougher than a similarly specced TR. "But the TR has Impossible to catch!!". People are exclaiming that TRs are perma-dazing from perma-stealth while proccing SOD and juggling flaming chainsaw swords while whistling little Dixie and using 5 encounters. Reality check, if you have shadow strike slotted to make your tab useable, and ITC or VP as a defensive encounter, then you have ONE encounter slot for offense. So yes, that ONE encounter should be pretty **** effective, and the at wills should hit hard too. The tipping point is that in mod 5 PVP it often doesn't take more than one rotation to kill someone, and that's regardless of class. TR's get to choose the opening salvo, and then it's too easy for them to avoid retaliation.
I think the simple solution is to tone down the clearly broken things, which at this point I would only say is what I mentioned above, and to implement the following. After a rogue's first strike in combat, stealth detection range is increased to 10ft as long as the rogue remains in combat(the rogue can be seen at 10 ft, but not targeted unless he is within the now live detection range). I would have never of dreamed of suggesting this mod-2 to mod-4, but I think NOW would be a good time. Other than DHS and BB+SO I don't think TR dmg is out of hand, or their CC. What I do think is out of balance is someone's ability to track and counter a TR, and especially how that effects node-control in a domination match. The solution to this IMO is stealth detection range. Best of all, that would not affect PVE at all.
The suggestion to disable stealth entirely under any conditions is out right absurd. M5 they tied stealth into the class even more deeply than before. It's like going from a sports car to a moped. Any changes to stealth need to be handled very carefully.
Ahem, to start with. For people saying "a 12k rogue beat the crp out of me." Well to start off with, TR's have extremely low GS, based off of what i've seen with my CW and GWF, my CW has over 1k of GS that my TR would never get, and my GWF is higher than that. Something like 14k TR = 15k CW = 16k GWF. So TR GS is lower than most classes even when they might have decent gear, this also sucks when trying to get into a group for PVE. Second of all, vorp enchants are MASSIVE damage boosters for rogue with the stealth rework, especially for burst. So say for example, someone laid down their rogue for a couple of mods, picked it back up for M5 and slotted a Pvorp on it. A 12k TR with a Pvorp is going to be deadlier than a 16k one without, and it should hardly surprise anyone that there would be quite a few people doing exactly that. My point here being that GS is not a good measure of a player in general, and especially not of TRs, since the gear that makes them effective, doesn't stem that much from boosted stats.
Aside from things that are truly broken, such as DHS+stealth, and shadowy opportunity + bloodbath interaction, stealth as a form of node control has always been an issue. I'll laugh at anyone who says that TR's cannot be countered, that's BS. In fact, against a group of pugs, I did better against multiple opponents in M3. Winning 4vs1 against lower geared and lower skilled opponents doesn't happen like it could then. "TR's kill me in seconds now" Funny, becuase I see equally geared players of other classes have 0 trouble killing me in one rotation if i'm out of stealth and their attacks land.
TR's ARE squishy, in terms of sheer damage they can take, imho a CW with shield up is tougher than a similarly specced TR. "But the TR has Impossible to catch!!". People are exclaiming that TRs are perma-dazing from perma-stealth while proccing SOD and juggling flaming chainsaw swords while whistling little Dixie and using 5 encounters. Reality check, if you have shadow strike slotted to make your tab useable, and ITC or VP as a defensive encounter, then you have ONE encounter slot for offense. So yes, that ONE encounter should be pretty **** effective, and the at wills should hit hard too. The tipping point is that in mod 5 PVP it often doesn't take more than one rotation to kill someone, and that's regardless of class. TR's get to choose the opening salvo, and then it's too easy for them to avoid retaliation.
I think the simple solution is to tone down the clearly broken things, which at this point I would only say is what I mentioned above, and to implement the following. After a rogue's first strike in combat, stealth detection range is increased to 10ft as long as the rogue remains in combat(the rogue can be seen at 10 ft, but not targeted unless he is within the now live detection range). I would have never of dreamed of suggesting this mod-2 to mod-4, but I think NOW would be a good time. Other than DHS and BB+SO I don't think TR dmg is out of hand, or their CC. What I do think is out of balance is someone's ability to track and counter a TR, and especially how that effects node-control in a domination match. The solution to this IMO is stealth detection range. Best of all, that would not affect PVE at all.
The suggestion to disable stealth entirely under any conditions is out right absurd. M5 they tied stealth into the class even more deeply than before. It's like going from a sports car to a moped. Any changes to stealth need to be handled very carefully.
If by "stealth detection range" you mean the tr can be seen then maybe that is a good idea.
Ahem, to start with. For people saying "a 12k rogue beat the crp out of me." Well to start off with, TR's have extremely low GS, based off of what i've seen with my CW and GWF, my CW has over 1k of GS that my TR would never get, and my GWF is higher than that. Something like 14k TR = 15k CW = 16k GWF. So TR GS is lower than most classes even when they might have decent gear, this also sucks when trying to get into a group for PVE. Second of all, vorp enchants are MASSIVE damage boosters for rogue with the stealth rework, especially for burst. So say for example, someone laid down their rogue for a couple of mods, picked it back up for M5 and slotted a Pvorp on it. A 12k TR with a Pvorp is going to be deadlier than a 16k one without, and it should hardly surprise anyone that there would be quite a few people doing exactly that. My point here being that GS is not a good measure of a player in general, and especially not of TRs, since the gear that makes them effective, doesn't stem that much from boosted stats.
Aside from things that are truly broken, such as DHS+stealth, and shadowy opportunity + bloodbath interaction, stealth as a form of node control has always been an issue. I'll laugh at anyone who says that TR's cannot be countered, that's BS. In fact, against a group of pugs, I did better against multiple opponents in M3. Winning 4vs1 against lower geared and lower skilled opponents doesn't happen like it could then. "TR's kill me in seconds now" Funny, becuase I see equally geared players of other classes have 0 trouble killing me in one rotation if i'm out of stealth and their attacks land.
TR's ARE squishy, in terms of sheer damage they can take, imho a CW with shield up is tougher than a similarly specced TR. "But the TR has Impossible to catch!!". People are exclaiming that TRs are perma-dazing from perma-stealth while proccing SOD and juggling flaming chainsaw swords while whistling little Dixie and using 5 encounters. Reality check, if you have shadow strike slotted to make your tab useable, and ITC or VP as a defensive encounter, then you have ONE encounter slot for offense. So yes, that ONE encounter should be pretty **** effective, and the at wills should hit hard too. The tipping point is that in mod 5 PVP it often doesn't take more than one rotation to kill someone, and that's regardless of class. TR's get to choose the opening salvo, and then it's too easy for them to avoid retaliation.
I think the simple solution is to tone down the clearly broken things, which at this point I would only say is what I mentioned above, and to implement the following. After a rogue's first strike in combat, stealth detection range is increased to 10ft as long as the rogue remains in combat(the rogue can be seen at 10 ft, but not targeted unless he is within the now live detection range). I would have never of dreamed of suggesting this mod-2 to mod-4, but I think NOW would be a good time. Other than DHS and BB+SO I don't think TR dmg is out of hand, or their CC. What I do think is out of balance is someone's ability to track and counter a TR, and especially how that effects node-control in a domination match. The solution to this IMO is stealth detection range. Best of all, that would not affect PVE at all.
The suggestion to disable stealth entirely under any conditions is out right absurd. M5 they tied stealth into the class even more deeply than before. It's like going from a sports car to a moped. Any changes to stealth need to be handled very carefully.
You know why TR with low GS can one rotate higher GS?
100% change crit while stealth so there can build that ignore crit stat and stack for max pow and arpen (include eye strom CW)
You say squish class? Have stealth, cc imune, 4 long roll dodge, 75% deflec
for all TR stop fooling your self with saying TR is fine shame on you
Change 100% crit change with 40% crit sev include eye strom CW
if you wanna crit damage you need to stack crit stat
change +25% defl sev with + 5% def sev each enemy within 15 feet max 25%
Make TR leave footprint while stealth at least when step on node
no more cap node with doing nothing (include HR)
You say squish class? Have stealth, cc imune, 4 long roll dodge, 75% deflec
change +25% defl sev with + 5% def sev each enemy within 15 feet
that suggestion again.....stop trying to kill our only defensive mechanic outside of stealth. unless you truly want everyone to be a perma-stealth or 1-shotting rogue, get over it.
You know why TR with low GS can one rotate higher GS?
100% change crit while stealth so there can build that ignore crit stat and stack for max pow and arpen (include eye strom CW)
You say squish class? Have stealth, cc imune, 4 long roll dodge, 75% deflec
for all TR stop fooling your self with saying TR is fine shame on you
Change 100% crit change with 40% crit sev include eye strom CW
if you wanna crit damage you need to stack crit stat
change +25% defl sev with + 5% def sev each enemy within 15 feet
Make TR leave footprint while stealth at least when step on node
no more cap node with doing nothing (include HR)
A whole lot of nonsense here. Someone else who invents TR abilities that would either take 100 feat points to come up with or are flat out impossible to achieve. This kind of BS really isn't helpful to the debate.
Comments
ELO would match everyone VERY FAIRLY if you felt like waiting over an hour sometimes in que. There are just not enough people playing pvp on dragon. Most of you guys should know this. There needs to be separate ques, one for pugs and one for premades. This is mandatory for fair matchmaking. The que would simply put any group of more than two into the premade que.
Back to TR's. What is the most concise solution?
T
What he says pretty much sums it up though and separate premade/pugs would solve the issue that premade could face eachother with less hassle but it would not stop those bis made premade from queuing to stomp others as that is the major reason they form their elite community.
In for example Age of Conan they solved a bit of the problem with making it impossible to sign up with anybody making it random what group you ended up in and then made a separate system for premade vs premade.
Otherwise i totally agree with what he wrote and has exactly the same experiance..
Sure there are differences in "style" but the end result is similar - wiping out a group or person with ease - this has been happening with several other classes for a year.
Even today, good PvPers in several other classes (non-TR) can still one-shot others.
And I think I remember someone saying that in PvP you can see a stealthed TR if they get too close to you.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
My suggestion would be:
DAZING STRIKE, SMOKE BOMB, SHADOW STRIKE, IMPACT SHOT are the major problem; the dazing time should be reduce to 1 to 3 second max on players (like CW control) and players should be immune to daze effects for at least 8 second after being daze, so that will put a stop to one of major problem with TR abuse.
LASHING BLADE DPS should be reduce 60% HP on players and from Stealth to 20% critical severity instead of 50% on players.
IMPACT SHOT DPS should be reduce 60% HP on players.
If more than two people qued as a party they would go automatically into the premade que.
If your cursor just happens to flash across the stealthed tr you get a glimpse but thats it. Good luck with that. It is being one or two shot after being dazed from an opponent that is invisible. In other words it is a two shot with no possible defense.
1. Give tools to make them visible. All we have is lantern, which is a waste of artifact slot and the cooldown is abysmal. There should be encounters that would reveal hidden enemies. But hey, as there are no stealthed mobs in Neverwinter, I don't see that happening. It would be cool though.
2. Make damage instantly reveal them. Here however, slealth depletes by the percentage of health loss. I have no idea why devs had to change stealth into that from a fixed stealth loss per hit. Before that you could at least deplete TR's stealth with quick at will attacks. Now you need to hit for half their hp to have a chance at that.
3. Make them squishy. Here however, 60% deflect rate and 88% deflect severity (with elixir and boon), CC immunity if you deflect, infinite dodges and perma stealth is not what I'd call squishy. Actual tanks here have way worse survivability.
One shots from TRs would be ok if you could see them coming and have a chance to dodge (if not CCd). But we can't and that's the major problem.
What the hell are you talking about? I never said that. I just listed a few different points of how other mmos deal with their assassin classes. Don't get so defensive for no reason.
And hey, currently any class is a fish in a barrel for TRs.
I think TR should be left entirely alone as a class, other than the use of stealth on a domination node. That needs gone.
I think there are a ton of fixes, I just think the simplest one (in my mind, I know nothing about programming) is making pvp nodes no-stealth zones.
What would prevent TRs from attacking from outside the no-stealth zone? They've got a bunch of ranged powers as well. That would not fix anything.
maybe whisperknife, otherwise it's just impact shot which is weak and deft strike for scoundrels who don't need stealth
i'm fine with #1, #2 might break sabs since it's their entire build, and #3 is biased.
60% deflect rate requires such a hefty investment that your offensive stats are utter <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> for achieving it and your hp will be around 35k max no matter how heavily geared you are. the rogues with 50k or so hp will be around 40-50% deflect. we do get controlled even when we deflect and my rogue would be held for much longer if i didn't have elven battle to practically halve most wizard controls and hunter roots.
infinite dodges is impossible and tanks are actually tankier than deflect. a rogue trying to out-tank a guardian in block or a gwf in unstoppable will die 100% guaranteed. which is why we try to avoid ramming into their defensive mechanics.
Nobody knows who you are in-game.
You haven't done a single premade in your entire life, forum hero.
And, please, fix it devs. Now it's not working WAI. Only the very first hit counts, not the following 6 secs.
And fix Last Moments as well. Not working either.
Thanks
#3 is unworkable unless you want to leave permastealth in the game. Also, those deflect numbers would mean a TR with zero offensive stats so I doubt you see that much in game. And deflect does not grant control immunity - it reduces control duration. Finally - no TR has infinite dodges. I specifically built for extra dodges (as a Scoundrel it's a big part of my defence) and I might get 4 in a row, depending on how fast I burn them.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
About nodes being no stealth zones, I think it would be easier to code that stealthed chars can't win a node. I think I've seen that in some other similar pvp modes in other MMOs
And yet in this MMO, you get a stealth refill every 15 secs from Saboteur capstone and stealth regeneration from Saboteur feats and Gloaming Cut, not to mention having Shadow Strike automatically refill the stealth bar.
This is in addition from being able to perpetually use entire ability sets from stealth and while stealthed the entire time.
Not to mention having a 100% crit rate while in stealth.
Long story short, I fully agree with any attack from a trickster breaking stealth. Either that, or increase stealth loss from damage while stealthed.
You get a CW!
you forgot the ability to just deal about 15k damage that bypasses all forms of mitigation within the 1st few seconds of combat
No, you get a class that just gets eaten alive by a TR 2v1
Indeed it would. Kill faster on a node = the node is dominated by your team longer = more points = win. Survive longer on a node = the node is dominated by your team longer = more points = win. There are situations where you want to fight off node but they are not as common as the need to fight on node. So ya, the TR could range attack you while he is off node but being off node he is not directly contesting that node, not helping it change from red to blue or keeping it from going blue to red.
My suggestion does not ask for much. It isn't even a nerf.
That is a pretty good idea, that TR couldn't cap while stealthed, my problem though is that they can fairly easily clear a node of opponents. I like the idea of damage removing stealth altogether but with infinite stealth as a tradeoff. Great, simple, suggestions, thanks!
Ahem, to start with. For people saying "a 12k rogue beat the crp out of me." Well to start off with, TR's have extremely low GS, based off of what i've seen with my CW and GWF, my CW has over 1k of GS that my TR would never get, and my GWF is higher than that. Something like 14k TR = 15k CW = 16k GWF. So TR GS is lower than most classes even when they might have decent gear, this also sucks when trying to get into a group for PVE. Second of all, vorp enchants are MASSIVE damage boosters for rogue with the stealth rework, especially for burst. So say for example, someone laid down their rogue for a couple of mods, picked it back up for M5 and slotted a Pvorp on it. A 12k TR with a Pvorp is going to be deadlier than a 16k one without, and it should hardly surprise anyone that there would be quite a few people doing exactly that. My point here being that GS is not a good measure of a player in general, and especially not of TRs, since the gear that makes them effective, doesn't stem that much from boosted stats.
Aside from things that are truly broken, such as DHS+stealth, and shadowy opportunity + bloodbath interaction, stealth as a form of node control has always been an issue. I'll laugh at anyone who says that TR's cannot be countered, that's BS. In fact, against a group of pugs, I did better against multiple opponents in M3. Winning 4vs1 against lower geared and lower skilled opponents doesn't happen like it could then. "TR's kill me in seconds now" Funny, becuase I see equally geared players of other classes have 0 trouble killing me in one rotation if i'm out of stealth and their attacks land.
TR's ARE squishy, in terms of sheer damage they can take, imho a CW with shield up is tougher than a similarly specced TR. "But the TR has Impossible to catch!!". People are exclaiming that TRs are perma-dazing from perma-stealth while proccing SOD and juggling flaming chainsaw swords while whistling little Dixie and using 5 encounters. Reality check, if you have shadow strike slotted to make your tab useable, and ITC or VP as a defensive encounter, then you have ONE encounter slot for offense. So yes, that ONE encounter should be pretty **** effective, and the at wills should hit hard too. The tipping point is that in mod 5 PVP it often doesn't take more than one rotation to kill someone, and that's regardless of class. TR's get to choose the opening salvo, and then it's too easy for them to avoid retaliation.
I think the simple solution is to tone down the clearly broken things, which at this point I would only say is what I mentioned above, and to implement the following. After a rogue's first strike in combat, stealth detection range is increased to 10ft as long as the rogue remains in combat(the rogue can be seen at 10 ft, but not targeted unless he is within the now live detection range). I would have never of dreamed of suggesting this mod-2 to mod-4, but I think NOW would be a good time. Other than DHS and BB+SO I don't think TR dmg is out of hand, or their CC. What I do think is out of balance is someone's ability to track and counter a TR, and especially how that effects node-control in a domination match. The solution to this IMO is stealth detection range. Best of all, that would not affect PVE at all.
The suggestion to disable stealth entirely under any conditions is out right absurd. M5 they tied stealth into the class even more deeply than before. It's like going from a sports car to a moped. Any changes to stealth need to be handled very carefully.
If by "stealth detection range" you mean the tr can be seen then maybe that is a good idea.
You know why TR with low GS can one rotate higher GS?
100% change crit while stealth so there can build that ignore crit stat and stack for max pow and arpen (include eye strom CW)
You say squish class? Have stealth, cc imune, 4 long roll dodge, 75% deflec
for all TR stop fooling your self with saying TR is fine shame on you
Change 100% crit change with 40% crit sev include eye strom CW
if you wanna crit damage you need to stack crit stat
change +25% defl sev with + 5% def sev each enemy within 15 feet max 25%
Make TR leave footprint while stealth at least when step on node
no more cap node with doing nothing (include HR)
that suggestion again.....stop trying to kill our only defensive mechanic outside of stealth. unless you truly want everyone to be a perma-stealth or 1-shotting rogue, get over it.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder