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Can HR get some love?

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  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    ralexinor wrote: »
    CA procs 4 times per hit because of GPF.
    Not quite. If you land a single hit with a GPF slotted you'll get two ticks of CA - one for the weapon and one for the single GPF stack. If you hit often enough to maintain 3 stacks of GPF you still don't get 4 CA ticks per hit because CA can only tick once per 1.5 seconds and GPF ticks every second. So your statement is misleading at best.

    Over a period of extended attacking a dummy you get maybe one or two extra CA procs over the entire duration you attack.

    Edit: Just read your bug report. That's new behaviour. Off to do some testing...
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  • osterdracheosterdrache Member Posts: 480 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    ralexinor wrote: »
    CA procs 4 times per hit because of GPF.

    And still, a HR cant really beat a TR now, if build and played well. So maybe balance the TR down a bit before nerfing HRs and other classes?
    A HR cant kill a DC, but I am ok with that.

    What u all have to understand is this: This is not only a 1vs1 game, its a game 5vs5, and for example, a DC bring much much much more value to the whole team than a HR.

    I am ok with the HR how he is right now, but nerfing it further? Are u kidding me?

    Besides, pvp right now is stupid anyway. Its so broken because of other bugs...
  • ivcakamikazeivcakamikaze Member Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    mekagrave wrote: »
    After all the nerfs to HR and the buffs for CW,DC,GF, and TR and the power of the SW, HR's seem a lot weaker in PvP. Can HR get some PvP love please? TR one shot us with near perma stealth and daze. Cannot even hurt DC anymore. CW... well you know CC insta death. SW burst. I cannot help but feel like HR is a lower class citizen now that has no real place in PvP. We don't have enough CC, Defense, or Damage anymore. Only thing we have is mobility... and that is not enough.

    HR's seem a lot weaker in PVP? Haha, you joking right? HR is so OP class that need to be nerf. Get a better gear, and actually you can kill the whole enemy team. Have you ever been in Icewind Dale PVP zone? HR so terrorizing players there, and it's impossible to kill it.
  • piejalpiejal Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 403 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    You just need to boots your gear and know how in PVP
    IWD is open PvP map you know
  • kweassakweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    And still, a HR cant really beat a TR now, if build and played well. So maybe balance the TR down a bit before nerfing HRs and other classes?
    A HR cant kill a DC, but I am ok with that.

    What u all have to understand is this: This is not only a 1vs1 game, its a game 5vs5, and for example, a DC bring much much much more value to the whole team than a HR.

    I am ok with the HR how he is right now, but nerfing it further? Are u kidding me?

    Besides, pvp right now is stupid anyway. Its so broken because of other bugs...

    I've seen plenty of HRs beat TRs in preview. The only difference is what used to be a 8:2 in favor for HRs, has now climbed down to 5:5 (except for the mega-OP WK/Sab builds, which has around 7:3 advantage over HRs)

    In the end current PvP format is Domination. The fights I've observed in PvP, a TR will still be disastrously outmatched by the HR if it stands and confined to the node-sized spaces (which, evidently, a thornward will be placed upon). In a wider, open area, a pure 1vs1 fight with the TR don't giving a shi* about whether his team wins or loses, then the TR does have a bit of a higher advantage.

    As you said, PvP isn't 1vs1. HR is still one of the better choices for driving TR off nodes. Just don't expect to ROFLSTOMP the TR like HRs used to in mod4.
    Stop making excuses. Be a man.
    If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
    Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
  • piejalpiejal Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 403 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    kweassa wrote: »
    I've seen plenty of HRs beat TRs in preview. The only difference is what used to be a 8:2 in favor for HRs, has now climbed down to 5:5 (except for the mega-OP WK/Sab builds, which has around 7:3 advantage over HRs)

    In the end current PvP format is Domination. The fights I've observed in PvP, a TR will still be disastrously outmatched by the HR if it stands and confined to the node-sized spaces (which, evidently, a thornward will be placed upon). In a wider, open area, a pure 1vs1 fight with the TR don't giving a shi* about whether his team wins or loses, then the TR does have a bit of a higher advantage.

    As you said, PvP isn't 1vs1. HR is still one of the better choices for driving TR off nodes. Just don't expect to ROFLSTOMP the TR like HRs used to in mod4.

    Yes HR can kill TR just if TR mess up
    When face TR HR need to running around and wait until they use all they invis and roll to catch us
    then HR can land 1 rotate skill.. if TR not die HR is a big trouble
  • kweassakweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Not quite. If you land a single hit with a GPF slotted you'll get two ticks of CA - one for the weapon and one for the single GPF stack. If you hit often enough to maintain 3 stacks of GPF you still don't get 4 CA ticks per hit because CA can only tick once per 1.5 seconds and GPF ticks every second. So your statement is misleading at best.

    Over a period of extended attacking a dummy you get maybe one or two extra CA procs over the entire duration you attack.

    Edit: Just read your bug report. That's new behaviour. Off to do some testing...

    Then why does an application of CA, and one attack to proc the first damage, makes DoTs and CA proc attacks go on until the full 20 second duration? I've confirmed this countless times, putting mouse cursor on the GPF icon and saw it refreshing from 00:05 again and again. With GPF enchant, a CA procced attack will go on and proc further CA procs and GPFs for the entire duration.
    Stop making excuses. Be a man.
    If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
    Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
  • kweassakweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    piejal wrote: »
    Yes HR can kill TR just if TR mess up
    When face TR HR need to running around and wait until they use all they invis and roll to catch us
    then HR can land 1 rotate skill.. if TR not die HR is a big trouble

    Seems perfectly normal.

    At least more normal than mod4 HRs where countless rotations from anyone, won't still kill it no matter how much the HR messes up.
    Stop making excuses. Be a man.
    If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
    Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
  • piejalpiejal Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 403 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    kweassa wrote: »
    Seems perfectly normal.

    At least more normal than mod4 HRs where countless rotations from anyone, won't still kill it no matter how much the HR messes up.

    I was saying "if" they mess up
    but if they do it right not forcing to go fast kill
    well it's dying slow but sure and only can hitting the air or hit while they in cc mode with 75% defl sev

    I think you still hold grude with HR
    seriusly you should move on LOL
  • osterdracheosterdrache Member Posts: 480 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I've seen plenty of HRs beat TRs in preview. The only difference is what used to be a 8:2 in favor for HRs, has now climbed down to 5:5 (except for the mega-OP WK/Sab builds, which has around 7:3 advantage over HRs)

    I have spoken to some TRs considered by many the best ones on this server.
    With AP gain cloak, dc artefact and BiS gear, the chances are very very low that a HR can beat a TR.
    Its not like i am not used to fight these best TRs, u know.
    Permastealth, perma dodge (my TR is close to 5 consecutive dodges), 30k dailies with cd reduction and piercingdmg, immunity, autotargeting, yeah, good luck with that…
  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    HR seems like this to me, talking about combat HR for PvP:

    - OP against fighter classes if using red glyphs. Red glyphs rip people in pieces way too fast on HRs.
    - Against CW it's more balanced: if both have reds, the CW must dodge the boar prone (if the HR uses it) or he's pretty much dead. The HR must dodge the CC chain or he's dead too, usually.

    Against current TR PvP build, it's just hopeless unless he's lucky and can land a high burst. Current TR with combo of overabused stealth, dazes, immunities, long rolls and movement speed can avoid damage 100%. If he fails at that, it's his fault. But TR got all the weapons to be unbeatable.
    That's why TRs on lidearboard who usually do premade vs premade of high level, have insane kill/ death ratios of 1300-19 (sicarius).

    1300-19. If you say this is not the most OP build/ class ever appeared on neverwinter, you're fooling yourself.

    HR seems fine with a weakness (can be CCed to death). Pretty much a strong DPS melee/ ranged hybrid in PvP more melee oriented, with the weakness of being more vulnerable after his first attack, expecially against CWs. With my GWF i must sprint dodge boar prone and then catch them with my FLS/RS/IBS combo. If i manage to do that, right now, at same gear level, i can hurt the a lot (using instigator DPS build, not intimidation) and now they do not really recover fast from my damage.
  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I have spoken to some TRs considered by many the best ones on this server.
    With AP gain cloak, dc artefact and BiS gear, the chances are very very low that a HR can beat a TR.
    Its not like i am not used to fight these best TRs, u know.
    Permastealth, perma dodge (my TR is close to 5 consecutive dodges), 30k dailies with cd reduction and piercingdmg, immunity, autotargeting, yeah, good luck with that…

    I keep repeating TRs got too many survivability tools piled up together, but a part of TR community is in denial about this and everyone just talks about damage. Hope the devs fix the build that makes TRs almost unkillable.

    As i said above: Sicarius TR over 1300 kills and 19 deaths in leaderboard.
    19 deaths. Not even tank DCs get that unkillable.
    A TR who knows how to use the build and has soulforged? Unkillable.
    With lathander artifacts set? Unkillable x10.
  • piejalpiejal Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 403 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    emilemo wrote: »
    I dont know what is the OP all about. I give love to HRs all the time, with this:

    Greatsword%20of%20Kings.jpg

    after nerf cutting wild medicine to half was broke my heart
    but yeah i can say now HR can hold balance as title
  • hamletswordshamletswords Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,320 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2014
    Have any of you stopped to think that maybe they do this on purpose- make 1 or 2 classes ridiculously OP so people reroll and spend more money every mod? It's always been this way.

    And basically any argument over OPness or not is pretty irrelevant because they're going to remain OP until the next mod, when some other class will be crazy OP?

    One thing that is kind of funny though is watching some people yell and scream about OP one mod, but when it's their main class's turn to be OP, suddenly it's all justified.
    My Harem: Dawn HR, Erin CW, Piper TR, Zoe GWF
  • piejalpiejal Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 403 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Have any of you stopped to think that maybe they do this on purpose- make 1 or 2 classes ridiculously OP so people reroll and spend more money every mod? It's always been this way.

    And basically any argument over OPness or not is pretty irrelevant because they're going to remain OP until the next mod, when some other class will be crazy OP?

    One thing that is kind of funny though is watching some people yell and scream about OP one mod, but when it's their main class's turn to be OP, suddenly it's all justified.

    Yes i do think like this too
    How come some dev that must have great knowledge in game did so many mistake
    i think before they implement change there must be some trial for balance
    and dev give slow response about balance feedback
    well who knows? Just hope this not true
  • ralexinorralexinor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 576 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    And still, a HR cant really beat a TR now, if build and played well. So maybe balance the TR down a bit before nerfing HRs and other classes?
    A HR cant kill a DC, but I am ok with that.

    What u all have to understand is this: This is not only a 1vs1 game, its a game 5vs5, and for example, a DC bring much much much more value to the whole team than a HR.

    I am ok with the HR how he is right now, but nerfing it further? Are u kidding me?

    Besides, pvp right now is stupid anyway. Its so broken because of other bugs...

    Yes, TR needs a tonedown still, but just because TR is broken doesn't mean HR doesn't need some bugfixes and still some nerfs.

    imo TR needs permastealth removed and some other defensive measures added (i.e. for 5-10 seconds after stealth has ended, 30% CC resist, 20% deflect and 20% DR is added, but you cannot enter stealth again during this period, or something similar (ITC would need to have some sort of change to not negate something like this)). Obviously that's just speculation, I think TR would still need some defensives buffs other than that in order to make up for the loss of permastealth, but honestly, being able to perma and have the sort of damage TRs have now is almost criminal. I'm all for the damage they have now; I think it's well deserved and forgive the cliches, it's rightfully theirs, however, it needs to come at a cost which would usually be their lack of defense. Permastealth, however, removes this weakness which is what's making this build far too strong. Also bloodbath/shadowy opportunity needs a fix lol.

    That being said, HRs are also still a bit over the top. I think once Careful Attack is fixed to not proc multiple times, combat should be okay, although maybe a lifesteal tonedown would be good (tbh I think a large part of the problem is the Dread Ring LS boon, which might need looking at honestly). Regarding trappers, I think they're in a fairly good position although some bugfixes (both nerfs and buffs) might be good, especially regarding how roots are undodgeable atm.

    But honestly? HRs don't need buffs right now. Fix the broken things, and then you'll see how strong HR is still.
  • emilemoemilemo Member Posts: 1,718 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Have any of you stopped to think that maybe they do this on purpose- make 1 or 2 classes ridiculously OP so people reroll and spend more money every mod? It's always been this way.

    And basically any argument over OPness or not is pretty irrelevant because they're going to remain OP until the next mod, when some other class will be crazy OP?

    One thing that is kind of funny though is watching some people yell and scream about OP one mod, but when it's their main class's turn to be OP, suddenly it's all justified.

    Well of course, this keeps the cash flowing from folks chaning builds, gear or class.. And the reason why they do it ( money ) is irrelevant. To us, the players what matters is how we deal with the consequences. Dont know about the rest of you but I play the class I want and like as a concept, not the class which can kill the most people with X build. So changing builds is the most I can do after a new Mod, changing class is not an option and If Im forced to do that I'll just change the game.

    So, what I mean to say is that we, the players appear to be unable to affect the way PVE/devs do things because instead of reprimanding this "new mod/new op class" policy we embrace it. We go along, some of us immediately build a FotM and go kill people for their own little satisfactions. Bottom line, its our own desire to own others that feeds the publisher's greed.
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  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Yeah it's highly possible that they just exploit the very bad habit of MMO players to look for OP stuff to easily crush enemies or feel like gods. So they rotate each class and make it OP to make these players spend a large amount of money on the next build.
    But i think these players are not the majority of NW players. Many are just dedicated players who want to be able to play their class well and may be spend some money here and there for services.
    If you keep the game healthy, more customers come and you can make them spend money already with current crazy RNG and economy, to force them to pay to gear faster. Power creep, new gear and artifacts to refine and such.

    Being greedy and frustrating players just to squish out of them crazy amounts of money is pure greedyness. NW players already spend nice amounts of money, more than a 12$ monthly subscription for example.
    Casual players would spend 10$ here and there if the game actually allowed them to fight decently with just that. Instead, now it's either go ubernerd or spend insane amounts of money to fill yourself with legendaries, or GTFO...
  • koalazebra1koalazebra1 Member Posts: 1,173 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2014
    I have spoken to some TRs considered by many the best ones on this server.
    With AP gain cloak, dc artefact and BiS gear, the chances are very very low that a HR can beat a TR.
    Its not like i am not used to fight these best TRs, u know.
    Permastealth, perma dodge (my TR is close to 5 consecutive dodges), 30k dailies with cd reduction and piercingdmg, immunity, autotargeting, yeah, good luck with that…

    duskamor confirmed nub.
  • kaedennnkaedennn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 361 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    piejal wrote: »
    Yes i do think like this too
    How come some dev that must have great knowledge in game did so many mistake
    i think before they implement change there must be some trial for balance
    and dev give slow response about balance feedback
    well who knows? Just hope this not true

    IT is true , anybody can realise that ,Devs aren't that stupid , they know what they are doing .
  • mehguy138mehguy138 Member Posts: 1,803 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I need an advice. Like a serious one. I just got killed by 8k scoundrel TR as a 16k combat HR. I was dazed 80% of time, and when I wasn't, the TR was stealthed. Oh, and he was WK, 2k Disheartening Strike hits FTW. 8k TR. Pls help.
    M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
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