Can HR get some love?

mekagrave

After all the nerfs to HR and the buffs for CW,DC,GF, and TR and the power of the SW, HR's seem a lot weaker in PvP. Can HR get some PvP love please? TR one shot us with near perma stealth and daze. Cannot even hurt DC anymore. CW... well you know CC insta death. SW burst. I cannot help but feel like HR is a lower class citizen now that has no real place in PvP. We don't have enough CC, Defense, or Damage anymore. Only thing we have is mobility... and that is not enough.

zvieris

No. /10char

vasdamas

You can't perform well if you don't have a good gear or never bothered looking for right ways to do things.

No

wyndrarch

Not sure if trolling or not, but my HR is doing just fine since the new mod. The only "nerf" we received was a correction to Piercing Blade as the bonus damage it dealt didn't take damage resistance towards the initial attack into consideration.

If you're having issues because one of your feats is working correctly, then I think this is a PEBCAK error.

zvieris

wyndrarch wrote: »

Not sure if trolling or not, but my HR is doing just fine since the new mod. The only "nerf" we received was a correction to Piercing Blade as the bonus damage it dealt didn't take damage resistance towards the initial attack into consideration.

If you're having issues because one of your feats is working correctly, then I think this is a PEBCAK error.

There also was a nerf to wild's medicine. But hey, it's still good.

kweassa

mekagrave wrote: »

After all the nerfs to HR and the buffs for CW,DC,GF, and TR and the power of the SW, HR's seem a lot weaker in PvP. Can HR get some PvP love please? TR one shot us with near perma stealth and daze. Cannot even hurt DC anymore. CW... well you know CC insta death. SW burst. I cannot help but feel like HR is a lower class citizen now that has no real place in PvP. We don't have enough CC, Defense, or Damage anymore. Only thing we have is mobility... and that is not enough.

WoW.. a TR 1-shotting a HR with perma and daze. Where can I get one of that?? It must be one of those legendary 100-feat point characters I've been hearing about!!

piejal

Well as HR in mod 5 i not gonna do pvp at least until drow set being implement
not gonna fight something that not fair and not rewarding
i think all HR should not enter PVP let the OP VS OP easy solution

wyndrarch

zvieris wrote: »

There also was a nerf to wild's medicine. But hey, it's still good.

It was? Ha! I didn't even notice.

piejal

wolhaiksong332 wrote: »

So then you agree, he likely was not one of the dominating hr's of mod 4. He has a place in the community, and he feels underpowered. That is up to him to decide.

Yes i am not top player HR don't wanna spend money and have much time to spend
just 15k GS HR and in leaderboard around page 60
and i don't mind since we never meet in pvp at least i don't remember your nickname
I will remember someone nickname if it was skillfull

ghoulz66

Really wish things didn't have to revolve around PVP...

HR feels nice in PVE.

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ghoulz66

morenthar wrote: »

In PvP, they are monsters. TRs can actually put up a fight against them now, but outside of that, they are just beastly. That's why everyone is giving the OP ****. I'm really not trying to be disrespectful, but honestly, I just don't know where you are coming from.

Always been that way in pvp. Not my fault they are so regen/deflect heavy and wreck havoc with glyphs. There's no fixing around that anymore so may as well give up on the whole HR/PVP balance.

kweassa

ghoulz66 wrote: »

Always been that way in pvp. Not my fault they are so regen/deflect heavy and wreck havoc with glyphs. There's no fixing around that anymore so may as well give up on the whole HR/PVP balance.

Seriously though, it took many TR players many, many months of debate and requests, constant showcase posts, etc etc.. until finally the idea went through to the developers -- which, as a result bloomed into the three different paths that have clearly different strengths and weaknesses, and plays out so uniquely different from each other that it now almost feels like the TR has 3 "subclasses" rather than just slight differences in feats. Scos, Sabs, and Execs really play out totally differently from each other in PvP.

Now, some people may argue its the same with other classes as well, but if you look at HRs for example, in the end it's still the same "basic pattern" both Trappers and Combatants use.

Let's be frank. Of the two paragons, Stormwardens are simply abandoned (like the old WK for TRs), and of the three paths Archery is considered useless for PvP. So basically its either Pathfinder Trappers or Pathfinder Combatants, and while they have subtle differences in preference of powers, rotations and such, the "basic combat pattern" is the same. Apply CA, rely on broken self-replicating GPF and Glyphs to proc nauseating amounts of DoT damage, and then turn that nauseating amounts of DoT damage directly into heals, alongside extra heals coming from very high deflect.


Face the facts, and you will realize HRs are in the exact same spot as the TRs were in mod2.

TRs were very powerful, the only class that could stalemate the "demi-god" mod2 GWF. But it was frankly lame. The same boring perma/semipermas and at-will spamming from stealth, and all three paths had minor differences and offered small rewards. Back then the feats didn't totally define the playstyle as it now does. The one, singular pattern of stealth-attack spamming, and everybody hated the TRs for how powerful and lame it was. Seeing the similarities yet?


HR players, IMO, should start to think sincerely about the future of HRs. IMO they should think about whether the current, lame "CA-DoT-heal = tough as cockroach" thing is really OK. It's a cheest mechanic, just like the old stealth-spam at-will was cheesy. It's a powerful mechanic no doubt, but it simply makes every other possible build, path, paragon choice stale and bland and weak. Also, it is hated amongst people.

In the end, HRs will walk the same path as the TRs -- HR players will still defend the cheesy, broken OP mechanic, and as a result the developers will nerf more and more until the class becomes like mod4 TRs -- weak and old and tired.


My advice as a TR who went through the same thing? Start talking to each other, form a consensus, start imagining, dreaming about cool mechanics or different and distinct paths, and start open discussions, make petitions.

You HRs don't need to be like this. We TRs did it. In the end, the TRs asking for a total redesign of the class convinced and won the developers over. As a result, we're all different now.

You HR guys could do it as well.

twilightwatchman

kweassa wrote: »

Apply CA, rely on broken self-replicating GPF and Glyphs to proc nauseating amounts of DoT damage, and then turn that nauseating amounts of DoT damage directly into heals, alongside extra heals coming from very high deflect.

GPF does not 'self-replicate' when used with CA. I did a ton of testing on this and all that happens is you get the maximum number of CA ticks as GPF keeps CA ticking even if you don't attack. You MIGHT get one or two additional GPF ticks depending on the internal timers as CA and GPF have different tick intervals. I never tested Glyphs so can't comment on that interaction, but I can't see why it would be different as they're basically the same interaction.

kweassa wrote: »

HR players, IMO, should start to think sincerely about the future of HRs. IMO they should think about whether the current, lame "CA-DoT-heal = tough as cockroach" thing is really OK. It's a cheest mechanic, just like the old stealth-spam at-will was cheesy. It's a powerful mechanic no doubt, but it simply makes every other possible build, path, paragon choice stale and bland and weak. Also, it is hated amongst people.

In the end, HRs will walk the same path as the TRs -- HR players will still defend the cheesy, broken OP mechanic, and as a result the developers will nerf more and more until the class becomes like mod4 TRs -- weak and old and tired.


My advice as a TR who went through the same thing? Start talking to each other, form a consensus, start imagining, dreaming about cool mechanics or different and distinct paths, and start open discussions, make petitions.

You HRs don't need to be like this. We TRs did it. In the end, the TRs asking for a total redesign of the class convinced and won the developers over. As a result, we're all different now.

You HR guys could do it as well.

HRs already did all this. Unfortunately the devs ignored all that feedback and we got the HR as it is now, which not one single HR asked for. The only good thing to come out of that rework IMO was the PvE Archer build, which is a blast to play. And even that means you basically ignore your TAB ability and half your encounters. The recent tweak to Trappers looks interesting but Combat is basically a single build PvP only tree now.

rayrdan

twilightwatchman wrote: »

GPF does not 'self-replicate' when used with CA. I did a ton of testing on this and all that happens is you get the maximum number of CA ticks as GPF keeps CA ticking even if you don't attack. You MIGHT get one or two additional GPF ticks depending on the internal timers as CA and GPF have different tick intervals. I never tested Glyphs so can't comment on that interaction, but I can't see why it would be different as they're basically the same interaction.


HRs already did all this. Unfortunately the devs ignored all that feedback and we got the HR as it is now, which not one single HR asked for. The only good thing to come out of that rework IMO was the PvE Archer build, which is a blast to play. And even that means you basically ignore your TAB ability and half your encounters. The recent tweak to Trappers looks interesting but Combat is basically a single build PvP only tree now.

NO.
i remember those discussions, i was so disgusted i started to ignore them.
You all asked for tree where you would not be forced to stance swapping and so we got a ******ed "pew pew am i really having fun?" HR archery; we got a "wtf i can only use 3 encounters ffs the others to nothing" melee and a "look them roots which do nothing but are beautiful" trapper HR.

that rework was disgusting but you all asked for that.
the OLD archery HR was a blast to play ! and hella fun!

twilightwatchman

rayrdan wrote: »

NO.
i remember those discussions, i was so disgusted i started to ignore them.
You all asked for tree where you would not be forced to stance swapping and so we got a ******ed "pew pew am i really having fun?" HR archery; we got a "wtf i can only use 3 encounters ffs the others to nothing" melee and a "look them roots which do nothing but are beautiful" trapper HR.

that rework was disgusting but you all asked for that.
the OLD archery HR was a blast to play ! and hella fun!

Um... no. There were a handful of people who disliked stance swapping early on but by the time of the rework nobody had asked for that to be removed. The majority of people posting in The Wilds had at least partly hybrid builds and loved them. I really don't know what posts you were reading.

ghoulz66

kweassa wrote: »

Seriously though, it took many TR players many, many months of debate and requests, constant showcase posts, etc etc.. until finally the idea went through to the developers -- which, as a result bloomed into the three different paths that have clearly different strengths and weaknesses, and plays out so uniquely different from each other that it now almost feels like the TR has 3 "subclasses" rather than just slight differences in feats. Scos, Sabs, and Execs really play out totally differently from each other in PvP.

Now, some people may argue its the same with other classes as well, but if you look at HRs for example, in the end it's still the same "basic pattern" both Trappers and Combatants use.

Let's be frank. Of the two paragons, Stormwardens are simply abandoned (like the old WK for TRs), and of the three paths Archery is considered useless for PvP. So basically its either Pathfinder Trappers or Pathfinder Combatants, and while they have subtle differences in preference of powers, rotations and such, the "basic combat pattern" is the same. Apply CA, rely on broken self-replicating GPF and Glyphs to proc nauseating amounts of DoT damage, and then turn that nauseating amounts of DoT damage directly into heals, alongside extra heals coming from very high deflect.


Face the facts, and you will realize HRs are in the exact same spot as the TRs were in mod2.

TRs were very powerful, the only class that could stalemate the "demi-god" mod2 GWF. But it was frankly lame. The same boring perma/semipermas and at-will spamming from stealth, and all three paths had minor differences and offered small rewards. Back then the feats didn't totally define the playstyle as it now does. The one, singular pattern of stealth-attack spamming, and everybody hated the TRs for how powerful and lame it was. Seeing the similarities yet?


HR players, IMO, should start to think sincerely about the future of HRs. IMO they should think about whether the current, lame "CA-DoT-heal = tough as cockroach" thing is really OK. It's a cheest mechanic, just like the old stealth-spam at-will was cheesy. It's a powerful mechanic no doubt, but it simply makes every other possible build, path, paragon choice stale and bland and weak. Also, it is hated amongst people.

In the end, HRs will walk the same path as the TRs -- HR players will still defend the cheesy, broken OP mechanic, and as a result the developers will nerf more and more until the class becomes like mod4 TRs -- weak and old and tired.


My advice as a TR who went through the same thing? Start talking to each other, form a consensus, start imagining, dreaming about cool mechanics or different and distinct paths, and start open discussions, make petitions.

You HRs don't need to be like this. We TRs did it. In the end, the TRs asking for a total redesign of the class convinced and won the developers over. As a result, we're all different now.

You HR guys could do it as well.

The stormwarden is AoE oriented so it will never have a place in serious pvp again. The DEVs created something that can be abused. It's way too late to do anything now. Then they toss in glyphs into the mix so they can wipe you even faster. Can only just nerf it into oblivion and kill the point of being a PF.

They can always improve archery in pvp, but then you'll have just new cheap PFs tagging along and gunning down people from a distance or trappers with more control just binding and running away just like their melee counterparts do.

I don't see the DEVs touching the core of the HR, in the distant future, not even sure about that either. GWFs are currently in limbo and it seems nothing going to be done about that.

The pre-mod 3 HR was just as cheap too with disruptive arrow and constricting arrow nonsense.

The HR will remain in pvp as the cheap game hunter who likes to shoot unarmed game with a rifle.

osterdrache

CA dot dmg is not OP. Why are people saying that? Against decent geared and skilled opponents, CA is by far not enough to threaten them. Especially now because piercing dmg was fixed. CA has also only medium range, long animation and DOES NOT proc on itself!

The comparison to perma TR of past modules is also kinda laughable. There is absolut no way a HR can hold a node as well as a perma TR. The HR is actually kinda squishy. People who claim otherwise are still stuck with their thinking in mod3, where HR had bugged pvp set and forest meditation and aotlw. These days are long gone.

But people like old established habbits, like bashing classes they had troubles with.
Most players in this forum are just clueless whiners. Like when they were raging about unfairness of stealth in past modules, resulting in nerf after nerf for TRs… the same happened and happens currently to HR while other classes getting over buffed.

So small is the playerbase here who actually want to have proper balance.

ghoulz66

osterdrache wrote: »

CA dot dmg is not OP. Why are people saying that? Against decent geared and skilled opponents, CA is by far not enough to threaten them. Especially now because piercing dmg was fixed. CA has also only medium range, long animation and DOES NOT proc on itself!

I've been almost instantly vaporized by CA and glyphs.

osterdrache

ghoulz66 wrote: »

I've been almost instantly vaporized by CA and glyphs.

What gear do you use and how much HP do you have? There is now way you are getting killed by 2-3 ca procs (=4.5 secs) if you have decent amount of hp (40k+).
Is ca strong and useful? Yes. Is it op? No way…

hoofit

Last thing combat HR needs is a boost it should go the other what they are no way squishy they are tanky and do way to much damage just enter pvp with an average combat HR and you'll see how tanky they are. I've done dungeons where the combat HR is tanking he takes mad damage and does crazy dmg so no way do they need any boost, range could do with a bit more tanking up but that's about it there dmg for range and combat is good. Combat hrs are way to OP like heals from cleric in pvp and TR damage as tr can now 1 hit 40k ive seen it and been hit for that 1 hit in pvp kill, not sure what the mod 5 balance was ment to do but its gone ...'s up.....

overdriver13

Playing again after taking some months off (after iwd was released), and ya after playing about 50 pvp matches now, HR has become a muck and grind class rather than the fluid, graceful class that seemed intended. Yes they are tough, yes they do a lot of damage, but the class is nowhere near as fun as it was when hybrid was the way to go.

jeffro9000

HR had a major rework a couple mods ago. They are beasts in pvp. HR effectively has 6 encounters and 4 at wills, stealth, interrupt, gap closer/escape, prone, self healing, dots and burst, etc., etc. HR is the last class that needs attention right now.

crusherbeast

mekagrave wrote: »

After all the nerfs to HR and the buffs for CW,DC,GF, and TR and the power of the SW, HR's seem a lot weaker in PvP. Can HR get some PvP love please? TR one shot us with near perma stealth and daze. Cannot even hurt DC anymore. CW... well you know CC insta death. SW burst. I cannot help but feel like HR is a lower class citizen now that has no real place in PvP. We don't have enough CC, Defense, or Damage anymore. Only thing we have is mobility... and that is not enough.

What is this some kind of joke? HR got buffs except for wild medicine which was soo strong that it was out of imagination. HR more tanky than GWF, only less tanky than GF, deflect is just crazy too high. Nothing has been done or nearly nothing to balance this class and you want to make it even stronger when it's obviously too strong? I bet you are just another who made this class due to 1v1 godmode. In this mod is the same god mode 1v1. It's just obviously another pointless thread.

ychiaki

Prime Critical HRs with old Fox Shift, Marauder's and old Constricting Arrow were the best HRs. Not OP (unless you were a CW, but CW was weak to everyone back then), not weak, just ridiculously fun.

And you actually had to move, avoid dying and hit instead of relying on stupid procs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8ooTlHN584 Don't know that guy but gamestyle is what I'm talking about.

xplmao2

ychiaki wrote: »

Prime Critical HRs with old Fox Shift, Marauder's and old Constricting Arrow were the best HRs. Not OP (unless you were a CW, but CW was weak to everyone back then), not weak, just ridiculously fun.

And you actually had to move, avoid dying and hit instead of relying on stupid procs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8ooTlHN584 Don't know that guy but gamestyle is what I'm talking about.

Agreed completely.

HR was aweomse until this Pathfinder came and ruined it.

(I'm pathfinder, you're forced to go with this paragon or you simply blow in PVP)

rayrdan

xplmao2 wrote: »

Agreed completely.

HR was aweomse until this Pathfinder came and ruined it.

(I'm pathfinder, you're forced to go with this paragon or you simply blow in PVP)

and that came with ridicolous other nerfs, like pathfinder action and storm step action

ralexinor

osterdrache wrote: »

CA dot dmg is not OP. Why are people saying that? Against decent geared and skilled opponents, CA is by far not enough to threaten them. Especially now because piercing dmg was fixed. CA has also only medium range, long animation and DOES NOT proc on itself!

CA procs 4 times per hit because of GPF. On a proper critical hit with combat + 6k power (realistically a fully geared combat HR has 9-10k power fully potted), you get x4 7-800 damage procs + piercing blade = 3.2k + 1.3k damage = 4.5k damage per CA proc. Yeah no, that's totally balanced, even with 500-600 damage procs is still 3-3.5k damage per CA proc. The other issue with CA is that it's basically just free proc damage and GPF just procs it over and over = no effort required and you just lifesteal heaps from it. I'd honestly rather CA be changed to a flat damage boost to your damage.

Tbh HR, TR and DC are still over the top atm. TR needs permastealth removed or either a choice between permastealth and damage (not both at the same time). I'm not going to comment on how DC could be balanced because I don't know enough about the class to make those assumptions. Combat HR needs the lifesteal toned down and once CA is fixed the damage should be okay as well.

I'd like for those things to be all fixed at once but we all know how unlikely that is due to how difficult some of that can be in terms of formulas and changes to balance between PvE and PvP. HR is still stronger in mod 5 than in mod 4 so I see no reason why OP is complaining. A properly built and played combat HR kills all other classes 1v1 except a TR (and that's because TR is way over the top atm, not because HR is weak) and a healing-spec DC. You still have a massive upperhand against all other classes besides those because you can make mistakes and still heal up to 80-100% after the next rotation assuming you're not missing everything.

rashylewizz

I think TRs and DCs are much much much more valuable than HRs at this point, but I don't find HRs to be underpowered

zxorn

I don't really think HR is underpowered, they just get hard countered by TR and it's important to remember that's in a 1v1 fighting situation, which shouldn't be happening very often for an HR.

They do fine against both fighters, combat does far better than it probably should against them, they do fine against CW, that fight mostly comes down to who CC's first and they play a good role in CC chaining a DC down.

Now I do think HR needs some work currently only one feat tree gives ample reason to consistently use their class mechanic and that seems stupid to me.

I'm prolly going to try trapper next myself, since combat feels like I'm playing my GWF.