And I get annoyed when people get overconfident and forget about lag, rubber or tell me "I didn't see the red circle".
When I see a CW who lies on the floor and didn't want to use shield, I don't help them. Survivability is good, but shield post-MOD4 became one of the best spells on a CW. It's not even arguable. And it's an amazing company i both eShot and eLoL.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
I'll use Shield on tab if the situation calls for it. Here are some situations I've found it useful:
-Epic Shores of Tuern, final boss when there's no tank able to hold aggro in the group. I can draw so much boss aggro that I can run out of stamina. In those times Shield has saved my rear more than once.
-Lair of Lostmauth, final boss. Especially if no tank.
-Valindra. if I'm in a group that is doing good DPS then making sure I don't screw up and get caught in a bad spot and die is far, far more important than burning her down slightly faster.
-Same with Fulminorax.
-When attempting to solo some dungeons where you just need 25% more DR to not get one-shotted.
But, that's fine. I'm the epitome of a terrible CW anyway, so no one should listen to me.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited November 2014
Shield on tab 24/7 is definitely someone who hasn't found their feet. Not the same as using powers appropriately for the situation.
The sounds annoys me so much though. So very much.
Shield on tab 24/7 is definitely someone who hasn't found their feet. Not the same as using powers appropriately for the situation.
The sounds annoys me so much though. So very much.
I use shield in certain circumstances, like EsoT, with no GF, I find your going to draw aggro at some point otherwise. But shield has limited usage , and only with certain groups compositions.
I wouldnt use it just doing the normal mobs, even if you die, you can always get rezzed .
I use HV most of the time, but will switch to Corrupted for kicks, HV still gets more in PVE for me anyways.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited November 2014
I personally haven't used Shield pretty much since soloing heroic CT back when my CW barely even had 4 encounters. I dropped it as soon as I had Icy Terrain. I haven't been doing anything that might possibly warrant it, but I can see where others would find use for it as stated above.
Lol you dont ever ever use shield in PvE. Maybe if you are undergeared. :P
Profoundly explain "Undergeared" in the given situation :
High Vizier set.
24.000-25.000 HP (quite decent for PvE)
2.500 def (without the pots)
8.500-10.000 pow (not even finished there)
1.400 crit (almost completely unnecessary because of EotS+Rotation combo)
1.600 ArP (since most of CW spells don't even use it)
1.100 life-steal (still comes in handy when temptation warlock comes around)
What part is underpowered here, precisely?
Telling that shield is a bad choice smells of ignorance to me.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
Profoundly explain "Undergeared" in the given situation :
High Vizier set.
24.000-25.000 HP (quite decent for PvE)
2.500 def (without the pots)
8.500-10.000 pow (not even finished there)
1.400 crit (almost completely unnecessary because of EotS+Rotation combo)
1.600 ArP (since most of CW spells don't even use it)
1.100 life-steal (still comes in handy when temptation warlock comes around)
What part is underpowered here, precisely?
Telling that shield is a bad choice smells of ignorance to me.
Your lifesteal is too low. Between all your DoT and AoE powers, you should be out-healing most of the damage you are receiving, allowing you to preserve your dodge for only the big things that will one-shot you. Basically, all of your defense slots should have rank 7 or higher dark enchants in them.
You should also get the Endless Consumption boon, to really let you top off your lifesteal benefits, as it procs quite frequently.
With almost 2k lifesteal and EC, I can solo any Major HE in IWD at 15k GS, including the ones with giants like Ill-Gotten Gains.
Your lifesteal is too low. Between all your DoT and AoE powers, you should be out-healing most of the damage you are receiving, allowing you to preserve your dodge for only the big things that will one-shot you. Basically, all of your defense slots should have rank 7 or higher dark enchants in them.
You should also get the Endless Consumption boon, to really let you top off your lifesteal benefits, as it procs quite frequently.
With almost 2k lifesteal and EC, I can solo any Major HE in IWD at 15k GS, including the ones with giants like Ill-Gotten Gains.
We're pretty far off topic here, but this warrants some discussion.
Lifesteal is awesome. Given how much damage CW builds pump out it is just about all of the healing a CW will ever need. However, extremely high Lifesteal is no help whatsoever against spike damage. If a CW has 25k HP and gets hit for 26k damage...they're dead. Lifesteal can't help them there. It is for precisely that reason that I traded in most of my Dark enchantments for Radiants. Now I have 34k HP, 1k Lifesteal, Endless Consumption, and the Boon Dragon's Thirst (which grants 3% Lifesteal). That set-up gives me enough self-healing to solo just about anything I want and allows me to survive all but the hardest hits in the game. Given how harsh diminishing returns are on Lifesteal I don't recommend players going above 1500. Extra HP becomes a better use of enchantment slots after that.
Concerning Shield, I think most experienced CW's would agree that using Shield all the time is a crutch. It's holding the player back from being as effective as they can be by taking up a slot that they could be putting to better use. If they're doing it for any lengh of time it becomes a "learn to play" issue. However, there are times when CW's are facing enemies with lots of spike damage. Those are ones I listed earlier: Epic Shores of Tuern, Lostmauth, Valindra, etc. The boss of Epic SoT has three attacks that can insta-kill a CW with 25k HP and 2k Lifesteal. Occasionally he'll use them back-to-back-to-back all directed at one player. That exhausts a CW's stamina supply leaving them vulnerable to getting wiped out. Also, screw up once on one of those attacks and you're on the floor needing help from teammates. At those times it can be entirely appropriate to put Shield in one slot. It will keep that same CW alive in those situations. Yes, their damage output will be reduced. But that's not really a detriment to the group. It's not like that boss heals or gets worse as it goes. The only reason for a CW to stubbornly insist on not using Shield in that case would be if they are so amazing that they never make a mistake (unlikely) or they are so consumed with chasing Paingiver status that they can't bear to spend one of their Encounter slots on a non-damaging spell.
If you don't need Shield and never die on Epic SoT even when pugging, then good for you. You're awesome. But please spare the rest of us the arrogance and condescension of declaring everyone who has found a good use for the Shield to be far, far beneath you and terrible in every way. It's not a good look.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited November 2014
Well, IN GENERAL...
Using sheild is the sign of a poorly built CW - a glass cannon that dies way too easily. You can actually do MORE DPS by being LESS glass because you don't have to dodge as much and don't spend much time on the floor.
That said, MANY CWs use shield (on tab) at garakas or sometimes in ELOL. Sometimes, those people fall into the 20k HP with low defense category and are just plain bad. However, ELOL and ESOT hit hard enough that it's not a bad choice there.
Elsewhere, yeah, it means your gear is wrong. You shouldn't need shield anywhere except mod 4 content. (obviously if you are undergeared and are trying to make AD, that's a different situation. It's CHOOSING to be made of glass that is the mistake).
chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited November 2014
Actually, I am not objectively disagreeing with you OR implying you're a bad player at all. Your stats are pretty good (might want to move a little def to hp for max efficency), and I see lots of good CWs use Shield situationationally in Mod 4 content.
I don't think your CW is a glass cannon at all! But I have seen many who are, and there are large number of reasons why that choice is inherently flawed.
My post was not intended to be personal. Sorry for the misunderstanding,
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited November 2014
Back onto topic...I personally prefer the draconic gear, although if I had those illusive BI gloves it would be purified black ice. The reason being is that I enjoy Solo running content and challenging myself by attempting to do things which are "beyond my horizons" and whilst for team play High vizier may be the best, when running alone I find it to be rather squishy. Draconic and P.BI gear do not suffer from the squishyness trait.
chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited November 2014
Sure man, I admit i play MoF on live and have no plans to change. I also play with many excellent spellstorms, tested spellstorm on Preview, and I think i have a pretty good understanding of that class.
I just want to keep things on topic here, and focus on data rather than personal attacks. I don't have anything personal against you at all.
Now, I would love to either have a better version of ACT or another program that does the job better. If you happen to know of this - please point me in its direction. What bothers me most about the logging is that it doesn't show how the buffs and debuffs are acting, which is information i would love to have.
I do get the argument for spellstorm burst and I've seen it in action as well, but to say that is better than the MoF sustained/debuff isn't true either IMO. Both paths are different yet excellent.
Is HV BIS? Yes, of course, even for MOF if you have the crit.
SW is probably second BIS, and there are times when a MOF with a low cha score would choose SW over HV to affectively apply smolder.
The difference simply isn't as big as people think. I tested both sets on a MoF Thaum and a SS Thaum, and we are talking about 5% DPS here. It's not "great vs. terrible" it is "best vs. very good."
I am curious about draconic, as I don't have the funds (nor would i necessarily spend them) to regear my artifacts/pets/jewlery/gems to get a proper stat balance in that set. When i tried it, I didn't like it and I didn't think the set bonus was all that great, though I'm sure there are some builds out there that make great use of it.
My logs of fighting draco in Purified show that glyphs are quite powerful, which is also non-trivial when considering the draconic set.
Is sheild ALWAYS bad? No.
Is shield often bad? yes.
The times you would use it are exactly the times you posted, which is why i haven't been railing against that. I don't use it personally, but many CWs do in those very specific situations.
Also, I thought i should inform you. I got confirmation from a friend whose data i trust that Perfect Vorpal Enchantments are NOT working during eye of the storm. Considering they do NOT effect assailant, this really diminishes the value of Vorpals for SS CW. I would recommend a change to GPF or P.Terror, at least until this is fixed.
Anyway, some good points man. Appreciate the content. Let's just do our best to keep the delivery on the data and not to personal attacks, that's all.
Even if you go by the mathematical calculations raw Power still outperforms Critical Severity builds, and by a lot. It's all a matter of proper positioning and casting of the spells.
Not to throw a little more fuel on this fire, but Kaelec's math showed otherwise.
Power DOES experience the same diminishing returns as every other stat, just not in the obvious way. Power adds to your base damage. As you get more and more power 1% more of your base damage is less and less of a total damage increase.
Depending you your crit severity, you may actually need MORE crit than you think in order to maximize DPS.
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited November 2014
And for the record, I wear the Draconic set now. The set bonus is roughly a flat 10% reduction to all cooldowns for the party, which is nice, and the stat allocation is substantially better than HV, especially when you include the Overload slots.
Honestly, I just got bored with wearing the HV set.
And for exact purposes, let's remember that the HV set is a stacking debuff. It's not an automatic 30% increase in party DPS, simply for walking into a dungeon with it. With skill and practice, a great CW can deliver a very high up-time on the debuff...but where it shines the most is for over-geared parties chain pulling as much of an instances as possible, using Oppressive Force to apply three stacks to everything for a few seconds, then power nuking it to dust.
But I've moved past relying on HV. I don't want to be the guy in two years STILL relying on that debuff to clear dungeons.
Not to throw a little more fuel on this fire, but Kaelec's math showed otherwise.
Power DOES experience the same diminishing returns as every other stat, just not in the obvious way. Power adds to your base damage. As you get more and more power 1% more of your base damage is less and less of a total damage increase.
Depending you your crit severity, you may actually need MORE crit than you think in order to maximize DPS.
The Data in ACT works and calculates by the old MOD2 standard for each and every parsing of the line of text while using the outdated code, which is why the data in your combatlog won't parse properly in the ACT by using the plugin.
It is my understanding that ACT works by reading the data from the combat logs the game puts out. As such, there is no "calculation" that ACT performs that would be affected by changes to powers in Mods 3 and 4. If Chill Strike does X damage in the game, then X is outputted to the log, and ACT reads X off of the log. If the developers completely change the formula of Chill Strike so that it now does Y damage, then Y is outputted to the log, and ACT reads Y off the log. I have yet to see anyone give an example of where a power or ability does Y damage in the game but ACT incorrectly displays it as X because of an outdated calculation method.
That's why I'm asking for specifics. Before I jump on the "ACT is bugged" badwagon I need to see some evidence. Not just conjecture.
ACT is fine, the plugin is where the calculations are stored.
The plugin is outdated and doesn't accompany nor parse significant inputs an changes which accompany certain spells and descriptions game-wise.
If you need the proof of the in-game changes, all you need is to place CoI on tab and cast on anything, preferably a doll. Make it during the EotS, too. The combat log will perform "0 physical damage". This wasn't there before and this is the proof that certain aspects of the combat-log have changed over time.
I can't offer you any more insight into the problem and I understand that it might be frightening to see it as a convoluted calculation at the very end, but the starting point of comparison should be the numbers you see on the screen first and foremost. Relying purely on the ACT data might show or parse something that doesn't work in-game, yet tell you that it's there despite doing nothing.
In a similar sense ACT doesn't provide the info of just how much damage the rest of the party got by having MoF debuffing mobs or similar to that effect. Best regards. Nen
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
ACT is fine, the plugin is where the calculations are stored.
The plugin is outdated and doesn't accompany nor parse significant inputs an changes which accompany certain spells and descriptions game-wise.
If you need the proof of the in-game changes, all you need is to place CoI on tab and cast on anything, preferably a doll. Make it during the EotS, too. The combat log will perform "0 physical damage". This wasn't there before and this is the proof that certain aspects of the combat-log have changed over time.
I can't offer you any more insight into the problem and I understand that it might be frightening to see it as a convoluted calculation at the very end, but the starting point of comparison should be the numbers you see on the screen first and foremost. Relying purely on the ACT data might show or parse something that doesn't work in-game, yet tell you that it's there despite doing nothing.
I have actually done the testing you are describing. And I can tell that you have not and that you are getting your incorrect information second-hand.
When Module 3 was placed on the preview server for testing Cryptic re-configured how many spells worked. I did a great deal of testing at this time. One of the errors I found and reported four months ago here (third bullet point from the top) was that on critical hits of Conduit of Ice in addition to the damage ticks, a 0 damage tick would also pop up on the screen. Cryptic never bothered to fix it. ACT accurately captures that both a critical hit and a 0 damage hit occur on critical hits of Conduit of Ice.
Visual evidence here:
You can see yellow zeroes floating up next to each damage tick. You can also see those zeroes in the combat log. ACT sees those same zeroes and reports them. This is not an ACT plugin issue. It is accurately reporting the numbers floating up on the screen and the numbers in the combat log.
Likely, what has happened since then, is that someone you know looked at an ACT log and saw a bunch of zeroes under Conduit of Ice, drew an incorrect conclusion that ACT wasn't working properly, then spread it around. But it is simply not true.
In a similar sense ACT doesn't provide the info of just how much damage the rest of the party got by having MoF debuffing mobs or similar to that effect.
It does not attribute debuffing to specific characters. But it does indicate how much debuffing has occurred on an enemy. Again, that is not a problem with ACT or the plugin, it is a limitation of what information is in the combatlog that the game itself outputs.
Any other specific examples of how ACT isn't working properly?
I have actually done the testing you are describing. And I can tell that you have not and that you are getting your incorrect information second-hand.
I've openly admitted that I'm not using ACT for my testing since I don't find it accurate enough. This is purely mu conclusion.
When Module 3 was placed on the preview server for testing Cryptic re-configured how many spells worked. I did a great deal of testing at this time. One of the errors I found and reported four months ago here (third bullet point from the top) was that on critical hits of Conduit of Ice in addition to the damage ticks, a 0 damage tick would also pop up on the screen. Cryptic never bothered to fix it. ACT accurately captures that both a critical hit and a 0 damage hit occur on critical hits of Conduit of Ice.
It's supposed to say "immune". Regardless, accurately capturing the 0 damage doesn't mean that ACT is a trustworthy software. Besides, this wasn't even my suggestion to begin with. You clearly made a suggestive conjecture. I've written that combat log got changed and that as such ACT should follow and the plugin should also work post MOD2.
Visual evidence here:
You can see yellow zeroes floating up next to each damage tick. You can also see those zeroes in the combat log. ACT sees those same zeroes and reports them. This is not an ACT plugin issue. It is accurately reporting the numbers floating up on the screen and the numbers in the combat log.
Alright, you've proven that ACT plugin captures the CoI zeroes. This still doesn't indicate that you've proven that ACT works flawlessly. In fact, there're things which ACT doesn't count in. Because you're so knacky with it I fathom that you'll also post what things ACT doesn't count in the calculation on different occasions for the sake of objective perspective.
Likely, what has happened since then, is that someone you know looked at an ACT log and saw a bunch of zeroes under Conduit of Ice, drew an incorrect conclusion that ACT wasn't working properly, then spread it around. But it is simply not true.
This is yet another conjecture and I must say, a slight disrespect towards my intelligence, but I'll let you pass this one. No, that's not how it happened. I actually have opened a topic, too, about the CoI zeroes and they had nothing to do with ACT. The conclusion was that it's a misplaced description which happens during the critical hits and is quite probably connected with the chilling.
It does not attribute debuffing to specific characters. But it does indicate how much debuffing has occurred on an enemy. Again, that is not a problem with ACT or the plugin, it is a limitation of what information is in the combatlog that the game itself outputs.
That still doesn't mean that ACT plugin doesn't need further development nor that it's de facto proper software for calculation damage-wise. If you base all your conclusion solely upon the use of the ACT software I personally can't tell that your conclusions are accurate enough.
Any other specific examples of how ACT isn't working properly?
So, basically, the whole post was to impose the opinion that ACT's flawlessly working. I give you the benefit of doubt on this one since I need you to prove that P.Vorp is actually working damage-wise in combination with EotS.
Here's the criteria and how you should test it properly :
- No dolls, actual enemies. We don't know whether the doll mechanics are having the same outcome like the actual enemies.
- No boons.
- CoI on tab, Steal time, Icy terrain and Sudden storm. Thaumaturge with two oppressive feats, Sudden Storm 5xchill.
- Have a person who has the same build like you do with a difference of P.Vorpal sloten in the Weapon enchantment, same feats.
- Measure the damage in normal Shores of Tuern and check it after each mob spawn.
If you're willing to do this we may have the actual test at hand which would provide the actual data collected.
Recommended specs :
HV set with HP armor reinforcements, preferably.
25-26k HP
7700-8.000 Power
2200 Critical strike
2200 Armor Penetration
3500 Recovery
1500-2000 Defense
Paragon spells : EotS + Spell Storm.
No preview server. Same group of people in the party. No other bufferers beside 2 x CW with HV.
Rotation sequence - Chill Strike, EotS Activation, Steal Time, Oppressive Force, Conduit of Ice, Icy Terrain, Sudden Storm (enemies freeze), all done during the EotS. Yes, It's manageable.
No RoF, pure Chill Strike. Feats of your choice, excluding the Focused Wizardry.
If by any chance you're willing to test this and prove that P.Vorp is working "just fine", i'll write a song for you when the bard class comes up.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on the person asserting a claim. An argument from ignorance occurs when either a proposition is assumed to be true because it has not yet been proven false or a proposition is assumed to be false because it has not yet been proven true.[1][2] This has the effect of shifting the burden of proof to the person criticizing the assertion, but is not valid reasoning.
You're not using valid reasoning. Declaring "X,Y, and Z are true...now you prove me wrong" is baloney. And I won't argue on those terms.
You also cannot claim to have expertise on ACT and its flaws while simultaneously claiming that you do not use ACT.
Please substantiate your claim that ACT is inaccurate and does not accurately record what happens in the game. Alternatively, you could abandon your claim and just go with "I prefer not to use ACT because I don't trust it" which is a much less significant claim and one I'd not bother to argue with.
This argument began with you asserting that ACT plugin was out of date and not working properly with Neverwinter Mod 4. Now you have changed to this:
I see that you've made a lot of conjectures which could've been pretty much avoided because you know that not all information is collected by ACT plugin.
Do I need to prove this? I will use your very sentences now to do so.
You also cannot claim to have expertise on ACT and its flaws while simultaneously claiming that you do not use ACT.
I've used ACT before, but I don't use it to base all my calculations upon, which is the argument I'm willing to argue about and which is the point I started or whatever it was, which you somehow understood as if ACT doesn't work and started a holy war for ACT :rolleyes: I mean, c'mon.
Here's the question
Please substantiate your claim that ACT is inaccurate and does not accurately record what happens in the game.
And you already know the answer
It does not attribute debuffing to specific characters.
So, why are you arguing in the first place when you already know that ACT doesn't involve every single piece of information nor is 100% trustworthy? Am I really to prove that, download ACT and all just for your comfort? If anything, what makes you think that my knowledge about ACT is not substantial?
I used to use it, I've found it's not trustworthy enough which is the main reason I don't use it to base my final conclusion damage-wise about things in-game since some things are, please pay utmost attention, broken despite being in the combatlog.
This is why the testing that doesn't involve ACT-ing is necessary, for the sake of an objective and fruitful conclusion.
This is the reason why you can't use ACT to find out such things since ACT doesn't tell you "Hey, this is broken". ACT simply parses information which may not show up in-game nor work in-game, which is why you need a different method of finding out what doesn't work in-game. I think I couldn't write more simplistically than this and If this isn't obvious enough, I don't know what else I'd write to argue my point.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
I used to use it, I've found it's not trustworthy enough which is the main reason I don't use it to base my final conclusion damage-wise about things in-game since some things are, please pay utmost attention, broken despite being in the combatlog.
Like what? What's being incorrectly reported in the combat log? If you know of some examples, please report them so they can get fixed.
I still have yet to see anything, anything at all, that would indicate that ACT is inaccurately reporting numbers from the game. It would seem that now you are hanging your hat on the fact that it does not attribute debuffing to specific characters. But this is not an error or an inaccuracy--it is a limitation. Those are not the same things. Your own proposed method of testing is:
"- Measure the damage in normal Shores of Tuern and check it after each mob spawn."
I can only assume you mean that you do this by hitting "x" and looking at the paingiver chart. However, the paingiver chart is even less detailed than ACT. It does not even indicate that any debuffing has occurred at all let alone attributing it to a specific character. It's a bogus objection and in no way undermines the accuracy of the numbers ACT produces (ie. if an Ice Knife does 60,144 damage to an enemy in the game, ACT reports it as 60,144. That it may not attribute debuffing is irrelevant to the accuracy of the report).
Unless you can give me some example of "Ability A does B damage under a particular set of circumstances, and ACT wrongly reports the damage as C" I'm going move on and consider the matter closed.
Are we sure that Eye of the Storm doesn't take Vorpal into consideration when doing damage? I did extremely simple testing culminating in maybe 20 minutes so don't take my word for it but just going to the dolls and doing some tests it seemed to increase the critical damage dealt due to EOTS.
I tested this by slotting my regular Vorpal and proccing EOTS with 1 Magic Missile bolt, used Repel/Shield Pulse and recorded the numbers.
Then I unslotted the Vorpal and repeated the process.
Boons and feats were not selected so I wouldn't have to wait for any buffs to die off. My gear was 3/4 so my High Vizier wasn't proccing either.
I could give you my numbers from my own experiment but it would be easier to say that they got bigger when I had a Vorpal enchantment slotted.
I won't say they are absolute proof to the fact that it is working but I will say that slotting Vorpal somehow increased the critical damage given from my abilities.
I'm not a serious tester in anyway so maybe I didn't account for something, but like I said, I watched my buff bar and made sure it did not change when testing. I also made sure that the only thing inherent to my character (gear/enchants/ect.) that was changed was the fact of the Vorpal being slotted or not.
Comments
I laugh whenever I hear that shield sound.
When I see a CW who lies on the floor and didn't want to use shield, I don't help them. Survivability is good, but shield post-MOD4 became one of the best spells on a CW. It's not even arguable. And it's an amazing company i both eShot and eLoL.
I'll use Shield on tab if the situation calls for it. Here are some situations I've found it useful:
-Epic Shores of Tuern, final boss when there's no tank able to hold aggro in the group. I can draw so much boss aggro that I can run out of stamina. In those times Shield has saved my rear more than once.
-Lair of Lostmauth, final boss. Especially if no tank.
-Valindra. if I'm in a group that is doing good DPS then making sure I don't screw up and get caught in a bad spot and die is far, far more important than burning her down slightly faster.
-Same with Fulminorax.
-When attempting to solo some dungeons where you just need 25% more DR to not get one-shotted.
But, that's fine. I'm the epitome of a terrible CW anyway, so no one should listen to me.
The sounds annoys me so much though. So very much.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
I use shield in certain circumstances, like EsoT, with no GF, I find your going to draw aggro at some point otherwise. But shield has limited usage , and only with certain groups compositions.
I wouldnt use it just doing the normal mobs, even if you die, you can always get rezzed
I use HV most of the time, but will switch to Corrupted for kicks, HV still gets more in PVE for me anyways.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Profoundly explain "Undergeared" in the given situation :
High Vizier set.
24.000-25.000 HP (quite decent for PvE)
2.500 def (without the pots)
8.500-10.000 pow (not even finished there)
1.400 crit (almost completely unnecessary because of EotS+Rotation combo)
1.600 ArP (since most of CW spells don't even use it)
1.100 life-steal (still comes in handy when temptation warlock comes around)
What part is underpowered here, precisely?
Telling that shield is a bad choice smells of ignorance to me.
You should only use shield after you've die a few times. If you try and do everything without shield, you'll become a better CW.
Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
Your lifesteal is too low. Between all your DoT and AoE powers, you should be out-healing most of the damage you are receiving, allowing you to preserve your dodge for only the big things that will one-shot you. Basically, all of your defense slots should have rank 7 or higher dark enchants in them.
You should also get the Endless Consumption boon, to really let you top off your lifesteal benefits, as it procs quite frequently.
With almost 2k lifesteal and EC, I can solo any Major HE in IWD at 15k GS, including the ones with giants like Ill-Gotten Gains.
We're pretty far off topic here, but this warrants some discussion.
Lifesteal is awesome. Given how much damage CW builds pump out it is just about all of the healing a CW will ever need. However, extremely high Lifesteal is no help whatsoever against spike damage. If a CW has 25k HP and gets hit for 26k damage...they're dead. Lifesteal can't help them there. It is for precisely that reason that I traded in most of my Dark enchantments for Radiants. Now I have 34k HP, 1k Lifesteal, Endless Consumption, and the Boon Dragon's Thirst (which grants 3% Lifesteal). That set-up gives me enough self-healing to solo just about anything I want and allows me to survive all but the hardest hits in the game. Given how harsh diminishing returns are on Lifesteal I don't recommend players going above 1500. Extra HP becomes a better use of enchantment slots after that.
Concerning Shield, I think most experienced CW's would agree that using Shield all the time is a crutch. It's holding the player back from being as effective as they can be by taking up a slot that they could be putting to better use. If they're doing it for any lengh of time it becomes a "learn to play" issue. However, there are times when CW's are facing enemies with lots of spike damage. Those are ones I listed earlier: Epic Shores of Tuern, Lostmauth, Valindra, etc. The boss of Epic SoT has three attacks that can insta-kill a CW with 25k HP and 2k Lifesteal. Occasionally he'll use them back-to-back-to-back all directed at one player. That exhausts a CW's stamina supply leaving them vulnerable to getting wiped out. Also, screw up once on one of those attacks and you're on the floor needing help from teammates. At those times it can be entirely appropriate to put Shield in one slot. It will keep that same CW alive in those situations. Yes, their damage output will be reduced. But that's not really a detriment to the group. It's not like that boss heals or gets worse as it goes. The only reason for a CW to stubbornly insist on not using Shield in that case would be if they are so amazing that they never make a mistake (unlikely) or they are so consumed with chasing Paingiver status that they can't bear to spend one of their Encounter slots on a non-damaging spell.
If you don't need Shield and never die on Epic SoT even when pugging, then good for you. You're awesome. But please spare the rest of us the arrogance and condescension of declaring everyone who has found a good use for the Shield to be far, far beneath you and terrible in every way. It's not a good look.
Using sheild is the sign of a poorly built CW - a glass cannon that dies way too easily. You can actually do MORE DPS by being LESS glass because you don't have to dodge as much and don't spend much time on the floor.
That said, MANY CWs use shield (on tab) at garakas or sometimes in ELOL. Sometimes, those people fall into the 20k HP with low defense category and are just plain bad. However, ELOL and ESOT hit hard enough that it's not a bad choice there.
Elsewhere, yeah, it means your gear is wrong. You shouldn't need shield anywhere except mod 4 content. (obviously if you are undergeared and are trying to make AD, that's a different situation. It's CHOOSING to be made of glass that is the mistake).
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
I don't think your CW is a glass cannon at all! But I have seen many who are, and there are large number of reasons why that choice is inherently flawed.
My post was not intended to be personal. Sorry for the misunderstanding,
Chem
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
I just want to keep things on topic here, and focus on data rather than personal attacks. I don't have anything personal against you at all.
Now, I would love to either have a better version of ACT or another program that does the job better. If you happen to know of this - please point me in its direction. What bothers me most about the logging is that it doesn't show how the buffs and debuffs are acting, which is information i would love to have.
I do get the argument for spellstorm burst and I've seen it in action as well, but to say that is better than the MoF sustained/debuff isn't true either IMO. Both paths are different yet excellent.
Is HV BIS? Yes, of course, even for MOF if you have the crit.
SW is probably second BIS, and there are times when a MOF with a low cha score would choose SW over HV to affectively apply smolder.
The difference simply isn't as big as people think. I tested both sets on a MoF Thaum and a SS Thaum, and we are talking about 5% DPS here. It's not "great vs. terrible" it is "best vs. very good."
I am curious about draconic, as I don't have the funds (nor would i necessarily spend them) to regear my artifacts/pets/jewlery/gems to get a proper stat balance in that set. When i tried it, I didn't like it and I didn't think the set bonus was all that great, though I'm sure there are some builds out there that make great use of it.
My logs of fighting draco in Purified show that glyphs are quite powerful, which is also non-trivial when considering the draconic set.
Is sheild ALWAYS bad? No.
Is shield often bad? yes.
The times you would use it are exactly the times you posted, which is why i haven't been railing against that. I don't use it personally, but many CWs do in those very specific situations.
Also, I thought i should inform you. I got confirmation from a friend whose data i trust that Perfect Vorpal Enchantments are NOT working during eye of the storm. Considering they do NOT effect assailant, this really diminishes the value of Vorpals for SS CW. I would recommend a change to GPF or P.Terror, at least until this is fixed.
Anyway, some good points man. Appreciate the content. Let's just do our best to keep the delivery on the data and not to personal attacks, that's all.
Best,
Chem
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Not to throw a little more fuel on this fire, but Kaelec's math showed otherwise.
Power DOES experience the same diminishing returns as every other stat, just not in the obvious way. Power adds to your base damage. As you get more and more power 1% more of your base damage is less and less of a total damage increase.
Depending you your crit severity, you may actually need MORE crit than you think in order to maximize DPS.
This guide should be mandatory reading for Wizards.
Honestly, I just got bored with wearing the HV set.
And for exact purposes, let's remember that the HV set is a stacking debuff. It's not an automatic 30% increase in party DPS, simply for walking into a dungeon with it. With skill and practice, a great CW can deliver a very high up-time on the debuff...but where it shines the most is for over-geared parties chain pulling as much of an instances as possible, using Oppressive Force to apply three stacks to everything for a few seconds, then power nuking it to dust.
But I've moved past relying on HV. I don't want to be the guy in two years STILL relying on that debuff to clear dungeons.
Yes, that forum guide CW-wise was my jumping board on most things. Regardless, on the post #9 the math portrayed that power is still a much better investment overall
It is my understanding that ACT works by reading the data from the combat logs the game puts out. As such, there is no "calculation" that ACT performs that would be affected by changes to powers in Mods 3 and 4. If Chill Strike does X damage in the game, then X is outputted to the log, and ACT reads X off of the log. If the developers completely change the formula of Chill Strike so that it now does Y damage, then Y is outputted to the log, and ACT reads Y off the log. I have yet to see anyone give an example of where a power or ability does Y damage in the game but ACT incorrectly displays it as X because of an outdated calculation method.
That's why I'm asking for specifics. Before I jump on the "ACT is bugged" badwagon I need to see some evidence. Not just conjecture.
The plugin is outdated and doesn't accompany nor parse significant inputs an changes which accompany certain spells and descriptions game-wise.
If you need the proof of the in-game changes, all you need is to place CoI on tab and cast on anything, preferably a doll. Make it during the EotS, too. The combat log will perform "0 physical damage". This wasn't there before and this is the proof that certain aspects of the combat-log have changed over time.
I can't offer you any more insight into the problem and I understand that it might be frightening to see it as a convoluted calculation at the very end, but the starting point of comparison should be the numbers you see on the screen first and foremost. Relying purely on the ACT data might show or parse something that doesn't work in-game, yet tell you that it's there despite doing nothing.
In a similar sense ACT doesn't provide the info of just how much damage the rest of the party got by having MoF debuffing mobs or similar to that effect. Best regards. Nen
I have actually done the testing you are describing. And I can tell that you have not and that you are getting your incorrect information second-hand.
When Module 3 was placed on the preview server for testing Cryptic re-configured how many spells worked. I did a great deal of testing at this time. One of the errors I found and reported four months ago here (third bullet point from the top) was that on critical hits of Conduit of Ice in addition to the damage ticks, a 0 damage tick would also pop up on the screen. Cryptic never bothered to fix it. ACT accurately captures that both a critical hit and a 0 damage hit occur on critical hits of Conduit of Ice.
Visual evidence here:
You can see yellow zeroes floating up next to each damage tick. You can also see those zeroes in the combat log. ACT sees those same zeroes and reports them. This is not an ACT plugin issue. It is accurately reporting the numbers floating up on the screen and the numbers in the combat log.
Likely, what has happened since then, is that someone you know looked at an ACT log and saw a bunch of zeroes under Conduit of Ice, drew an incorrect conclusion that ACT wasn't working properly, then spread it around. But it is simply not true.
It does not attribute debuffing to specific characters. But it does indicate how much debuffing has occurred on an enemy. Again, that is not a problem with ACT or the plugin, it is a limitation of what information is in the combatlog that the game itself outputs.
Any other specific examples of how ACT isn't working properly?
I've openly admitted that I'm not using ACT for my testing since I don't find it accurate enough. This is purely mu conclusion.
It's supposed to say "immune". Regardless, accurately capturing the 0 damage doesn't mean that ACT is a trustworthy software. Besides, this wasn't even my suggestion to begin with. You clearly made a suggestive conjecture. I've written that combat log got changed and that as such ACT should follow and the plugin should also work post MOD2.
Alright, you've proven that ACT plugin captures the CoI zeroes. This still doesn't indicate that you've proven that ACT works flawlessly. In fact, there're things which ACT doesn't count in. Because you're so knacky with it I fathom that you'll also post what things ACT doesn't count in the calculation on different occasions for the sake of objective perspective.
This is yet another conjecture and I must say, a slight disrespect towards my intelligence, but I'll let you pass this one. No, that's not how it happened. I actually have opened a topic, too, about the CoI zeroes and they had nothing to do with ACT. The conclusion was that it's a misplaced description which happens during the critical hits and is quite probably connected with the chilling.
That still doesn't mean that ACT plugin doesn't need further development nor that it's de facto proper software for calculation damage-wise. If you base all your conclusion solely upon the use of the ACT software I personally can't tell that your conclusions are accurate enough.
So, basically, the whole post was to impose the opinion that ACT's flawlessly working. I give you the benefit of doubt on this one since I need you to prove that P.Vorp is actually working damage-wise in combination with EotS.
Here's the criteria and how you should test it properly :
- No dolls, actual enemies. We don't know whether the doll mechanics are having the same outcome like the actual enemies.
- No boons.
- CoI on tab, Steal time, Icy terrain and Sudden storm. Thaumaturge with two oppressive feats, Sudden Storm 5xchill.
- Have a person who has the same build like you do with a difference of P.Vorpal sloten in the Weapon enchantment, same feats.
- Measure the damage in normal Shores of Tuern and check it after each mob spawn.
If you're willing to do this we may have the actual test at hand which would provide the actual data collected.
Recommended specs :
HV set with HP armor reinforcements, preferably.
25-26k HP
7700-8.000 Power
2200 Critical strike
2200 Armor Penetration
3500 Recovery
1500-2000 Defense
Paragon spells : EotS + Spell Storm.
No preview server. Same group of people in the party. No other bufferers beside 2 x CW with HV.
Rotation sequence - Chill Strike, EotS Activation, Steal Time, Oppressive Force, Conduit of Ice, Icy Terrain, Sudden Storm (enemies freeze), all done during the EotS. Yes, It's manageable.
No RoF, pure Chill Strike. Feats of your choice, excluding the Focused Wizardry.
If by any chance you're willing to test this and prove that P.Vorp is working "just fine", i'll write a song for you when the bard class comes up.
This argument began with you asserting that ACT plugin was out of date and not working properly with Neverwinter Mod 4. Now you have changed to this:
I would refer you here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof
You're not using valid reasoning. Declaring "X,Y, and Z are true...now you prove me wrong" is baloney. And I won't argue on those terms.
You also cannot claim to have expertise on ACT and its flaws while simultaneously claiming that you do not use ACT.
Please substantiate your claim that ACT is inaccurate and does not accurately record what happens in the game. Alternatively, you could abandon your claim and just go with "I prefer not to use ACT because I don't trust it" which is a much less significant claim and one I'd not bother to argue with.
I see that you've made a lot of conjectures which could've been pretty much avoided because you know that not all information is collected by ACT plugin.
Do I need to prove this? I will use your very sentences now to do so.
Charming.
I've used ACT before, but I don't use it to base all my calculations upon, which is the argument I'm willing to argue about and which is the point I started or whatever it was, which you somehow understood as if ACT doesn't work and started a holy war for ACT :rolleyes: I mean, c'mon.
Here's the question And you already know the answer
So, why are you arguing in the first place when you already know that ACT doesn't involve every single piece of information nor is 100% trustworthy? Am I really to prove that, download ACT and all just for your comfort? If anything, what makes you think that my knowledge about ACT is not substantial?
I used to use it, I've found it's not trustworthy enough which is the main reason I don't use it to base my final conclusion damage-wise about things in-game since some things are, please pay utmost attention, broken despite being in the combatlog.
This is why the testing that doesn't involve ACT-ing is necessary, for the sake of an objective and fruitful conclusion.
This is the reason why you can't use ACT to find out such things since ACT doesn't tell you "Hey, this is broken". ACT simply parses information which may not show up in-game nor work in-game, which is why you need a different method of finding out what doesn't work in-game. I think I couldn't write more simplistically than this and If this isn't obvious enough, I don't know what else I'd write to argue my point.
Like what? What's being incorrectly reported in the combat log? If you know of some examples, please report them so they can get fixed.
Can you list other methods you use that provide "an objective" conclusion?
If you don't use ACT, how do you record your calculations?
I still have yet to see anything, anything at all, that would indicate that ACT is inaccurately reporting numbers from the game. It would seem that now you are hanging your hat on the fact that it does not attribute debuffing to specific characters. But this is not an error or an inaccuracy--it is a limitation. Those are not the same things. Your own proposed method of testing is:
"- Measure the damage in normal Shores of Tuern and check it after each mob spawn."
I can only assume you mean that you do this by hitting "x" and looking at the paingiver chart. However, the paingiver chart is even less detailed than ACT. It does not even indicate that any debuffing has occurred at all let alone attributing it to a specific character. It's a bogus objection and in no way undermines the accuracy of the numbers ACT produces (ie. if an Ice Knife does 60,144 damage to an enemy in the game, ACT reports it as 60,144. That it may not attribute debuffing is irrelevant to the accuracy of the report).
Unless you can give me some example of "Ability A does B damage under a particular set of circumstances, and ACT wrongly reports the damage as C" I'm going move on and consider the matter closed.
I tested this by slotting my regular Vorpal and proccing EOTS with 1 Magic Missile bolt, used Repel/Shield Pulse and recorded the numbers.
Then I unslotted the Vorpal and repeated the process.
Boons and feats were not selected so I wouldn't have to wait for any buffs to die off. My gear was 3/4 so my High Vizier wasn't proccing either.
This was in preview server as well.
During my testing I have found no evidence that Vorpal enchantments are not working during Eye of the Storm.
And your inevitable proof?
I know not directed at me, but...
I could give you my numbers from my own experiment but it would be easier to say that they got bigger when I had a Vorpal enchantment slotted.
I won't say they are absolute proof to the fact that it is working but I will say that slotting Vorpal somehow increased the critical damage given from my abilities.
I'm not a serious tester in anyway so maybe I didn't account for something, but like I said, I watched my buff bar and made sure it did not change when testing. I also made sure that the only thing inherent to my character (gear/enchants/ect.) that was changed was the fact of the Vorpal being slotted or not.