test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Understanding GWF mod 4 and current meta Intimidation
pandapaul
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 424 Bounty Hunter
Hello guys.. hopefully the Mods will allow this post in this part of the forums as I am aiming it towards the wider community not just the GWF players so lets hope "fingers crossed"
So firstly I want to introduce myself I play the toon Pandapaul Pve based GWF.. a lot of people will be know who I am and for those who don't.. Hello
. I a member of Black Lotus guild which has been around since beta and I also have been playing since beta so I feel I have a very good understanding of the class.. where it has been and where it is headed.. So here it goes
Mod 4 brought GWFs a series of nerfs mostly based on the pvp landscape that also had a significant impact on the pve playstyle as well... Could GWF be decent in mod 4? Sure... but it takes a combination of skill, elite understanding of game mechanics and close to BiS setup.. We were forced to chose between survivability and damage.. probably more than any class in the game... as a dps spec GWF you would stack around 25k hp and be a perfect example of a "glass cannon" where you would regularly be one shotted in pve and pvp.. as a tank spec.. GWF offered no damage what so ever.. so the choice was very clear.. and to be honest it's not bad for the game to have to chose as long as the other classes were in a similar situation... all we all know that is not the case..
My experience for mod 4 pre intimidation was that GWF was behind CW/SW very significantly in dps... and still behind more cc specced CWs in dps. In terms of single target HR/TR also has the potential to out dps a GWF.. with the right spec/gear.. the problem with the GWF was that no matter your gear/skill.. someone playing other classes with comparable gear/skill would always offer more.. Since Mod 4 the barracks have been a wasteland with only a handful of people posting in regards to the gwf anymore.... this is obviously a bad sign that most have left the class..
Now last time I checked the pvp leaderboard (pre intimidation) there were 2 GWFs in the top 50.. both very experienced and BiS GWFs... its was also interesting to see that the best GWFs in pvp had a kill/death ratio of around 3:1-5:1... decent I suppose but this is the best of the best.. Was also interesting to see other classes GF/CW/TR/HRs with kill/death ratio's anywhere between 10:1-20:1.. so there is obviously a bit of an imbalance there.. I read on the forums time and time again that people would say "GWFs are balanced now" in regards to pvp... but lets face it "balanced now" was just a reflection that they didn't feel threatened by the class and that it was fairly weak.. and most people were happy with that...
It is also interesting to note that a pve GWF will be absolutely useless in pvp.. and a pvp GWF will be useless in pve.. other classes have the ability to be good/great at both with the same build.. a GWF cant.. its either you spec for pvp or pve and that's it....
Some people will say that my toon has done a lot of DPS in this mod.. well it has.. but its a 22K GWF and it should be... I regularly see 16-19K GWFs with pitiful pve dps... way below what the class should offer at the GS..
now I have explained the pre intimidation mod 4 GWF situation it allows us to look at the current meta drawing attention..
Now I will agree that yes this feat is extremely powerful... the class did need more damage and yes it arguable whether its the right way about it or not... is it too good? probably.... but its already been listed to be getting a 30% nerf.. so maybe that will bring it back into line..
Now there are some graphs showing Intimidation is doing around 50-60% of the GWFs dps.. yes this is true.. but its very misleading using those graphs to show this.. let me explain
First the build requires that you slot both Daring shout and Come and get it... that's 2 of your 3 encounters slotted.. Both these encounters without Intimidation do almost no damage.. so really this 50% dps in the graph is actually a group of 2 encounters and a 5/5 feat.. it shows up as one source of damage but its takes 2/3 slots in your rotation.. I think that's fair.. Now that 2 of your encounters are slotted of course there isn't going to be a lot of other dps in the chart right? kinda makes sense.. Its also interesting to note that the first teir of feats in the sentinel tree offer no dps.. so your spending feat points away from dps to get this dps.. again impacting the spread of a GWFs dps..
n
Now my GWF runs around 15k power during a run... once bonuses stack up.. that number gets to around 20k power.. sounds like a lot right? So with this OP GWF build I decided to go head to head in Castle Never with a control wizard friend of mine.. he has 10k power.. although my gear is abit better his is decent enough to gauge how they go head to head..
We filled the party with GF and DC and another non dps toon.. so it was just us 2 going as hard as we could... the result... once draco fell.. was only 300k damage.. that's it.. 55.3M to 55.6M... So you see it takes a "broken feat" like intimidation to bring the GWF upto a comparable level to a CW.. that shows just how far behind the class has been this mod..
As I said I do believe the intimidation is too good and the nerf Is needed.. but GWF really does need some love to compete again.. This notion of building stacks constantly really is not a successful way of refining the class.. its just further progression down the wrong path... they are now taking that approach to instigator too...
So far in this game I have seen the GWF go front be powerful..... to useless... to powerful... to less powerful... to useless.. to powerful again....
So please when you keep asking for GWF to be nerfed again because one was better than you in pvp.. please just remember that this game needs balance of all classes.. not balance in terms of your class>other classes... allow GWF to have some love as well....
Peace out
Pandapaul
So firstly I want to introduce myself I play the toon Pandapaul Pve based GWF.. a lot of people will be know who I am and for those who don't.. Hello
. I a member of Black Lotus guild which has been around since beta and I also have been playing since beta so I feel I have a very good understanding of the class.. where it has been and where it is headed.. So here it goesMod 4 brought GWFs a series of nerfs mostly based on the pvp landscape that also had a significant impact on the pve playstyle as well... Could GWF be decent in mod 4? Sure... but it takes a combination of skill, elite understanding of game mechanics and close to BiS setup.. We were forced to chose between survivability and damage.. probably more than any class in the game... as a dps spec GWF you would stack around 25k hp and be a perfect example of a "glass cannon" where you would regularly be one shotted in pve and pvp.. as a tank spec.. GWF offered no damage what so ever.. so the choice was very clear.. and to be honest it's not bad for the game to have to chose as long as the other classes were in a similar situation... all we all know that is not the case..
My experience for mod 4 pre intimidation was that GWF was behind CW/SW very significantly in dps... and still behind more cc specced CWs in dps. In terms of single target HR/TR also has the potential to out dps a GWF.. with the right spec/gear.. the problem with the GWF was that no matter your gear/skill.. someone playing other classes with comparable gear/skill would always offer more.. Since Mod 4 the barracks have been a wasteland with only a handful of people posting in regards to the gwf anymore.... this is obviously a bad sign that most have left the class..
Now last time I checked the pvp leaderboard (pre intimidation) there were 2 GWFs in the top 50.. both very experienced and BiS GWFs... its was also interesting to see that the best GWFs in pvp had a kill/death ratio of around 3:1-5:1... decent I suppose but this is the best of the best.. Was also interesting to see other classes GF/CW/TR/HRs with kill/death ratio's anywhere between 10:1-20:1.. so there is obviously a bit of an imbalance there.. I read on the forums time and time again that people would say "GWFs are balanced now" in regards to pvp... but lets face it "balanced now" was just a reflection that they didn't feel threatened by the class and that it was fairly weak.. and most people were happy with that...
It is also interesting to note that a pve GWF will be absolutely useless in pvp.. and a pvp GWF will be useless in pve.. other classes have the ability to be good/great at both with the same build.. a GWF cant.. its either you spec for pvp or pve and that's it....
Some people will say that my toon has done a lot of DPS in this mod.. well it has.. but its a 22K GWF and it should be... I regularly see 16-19K GWFs with pitiful pve dps... way below what the class should offer at the GS..
now I have explained the pre intimidation mod 4 GWF situation it allows us to look at the current meta drawing attention..
Now I will agree that yes this feat is extremely powerful... the class did need more damage and yes it arguable whether its the right way about it or not... is it too good? probably.... but its already been listed to be getting a 30% nerf.. so maybe that will bring it back into line..
Now there are some graphs showing Intimidation is doing around 50-60% of the GWFs dps.. yes this is true.. but its very misleading using those graphs to show this.. let me explain
First the build requires that you slot both Daring shout and Come and get it... that's 2 of your 3 encounters slotted.. Both these encounters without Intimidation do almost no damage.. so really this 50% dps in the graph is actually a group of 2 encounters and a 5/5 feat.. it shows up as one source of damage but its takes 2/3 slots in your rotation.. I think that's fair.. Now that 2 of your encounters are slotted of course there isn't going to be a lot of other dps in the chart right? kinda makes sense.. Its also interesting to note that the first teir of feats in the sentinel tree offer no dps.. so your spending feat points away from dps to get this dps.. again impacting the spread of a GWFs dps..
n
Now my GWF runs around 15k power during a run... once bonuses stack up.. that number gets to around 20k power.. sounds like a lot right? So with this OP GWF build I decided to go head to head in Castle Never with a control wizard friend of mine.. he has 10k power.. although my gear is abit better his is decent enough to gauge how they go head to head..
We filled the party with GF and DC and another non dps toon.. so it was just us 2 going as hard as we could... the result... once draco fell.. was only 300k damage.. that's it.. 55.3M to 55.6M... So you see it takes a "broken feat" like intimidation to bring the GWF upto a comparable level to a CW.. that shows just how far behind the class has been this mod..
As I said I do believe the intimidation is too good and the nerf Is needed.. but GWF really does need some love to compete again.. This notion of building stacks constantly really is not a successful way of refining the class.. its just further progression down the wrong path... they are now taking that approach to instigator too...
So far in this game I have seen the GWF go front be powerful..... to useless... to powerful... to less powerful... to useless.. to powerful again....
So please when you keep asking for GWF to be nerfed again because one was better than you in pvp.. please just remember that this game needs balance of all classes.. not balance in terms of your class>other classes... allow GWF to have some love as well....
Peace out
Pandapaul
Post edited by pandapaul on
0
Comments
ha!
gwf is a stupid class in essence.
has the highest base weapon damage, but 0 feets based on weapon damage (so ... wasted potential?) maybe iv have one, i dont remember now.
is a aoe class that loses damage hitting multiple targets(noooooooooo choices about that).
being aoe, i have low radius/range and dont have good tools to attract enemies (cgi + new intimidation is the first useful exception). other possibilities dont have internal synergy (reaping strike suffered a damage nerf and sucks with stack system. alavanch takes me 4 seconds of battle, focused destroyer has 3 seconds of inactivity. "no cap" powers not have internal synergy with the destroyer, etc, etc, etc .
the dps tree has a t4 feet linked to a utilitary-non critical daily.
239867893756893 stacks to do the same damage to... i dont know.
This is all that matters, because I couldn't give a rat's <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> about Paingiver and GWF, CW or SW "heroics" in content that is outdated for a year and can be done with 10K GS.
This was also a TR problem, considering they should out dps a GWF in single target damage in ALMOST every single situation (barring vast gear differences/poor skill/particularly poor builds).
Try, trample the fallen ^^ if they haven't nerfed it (i deleted my GWf before mod 4 changes went live so idk.) but as far as i remember it added 25% weapon damage, which on a GWF is/was way more effective than on a GF, obviously.
i remember something about that, to a small porcentage of my weapon damage + bonus threat in sentinel/iv tree. but is not like, you know, x times my weapon damage or, that will make sense, bleed = x sticks of my weapon damage (+/-6000 damage over 6 secs).
I do not defend this change, but ... it's just a point.
25% of 1000 is still 250 weapon damage, that is not too bad.
is just use the latent potential of the class or, you know, make the class work.
- my vision of the gwf is not being top dps in charts. I like the class where it can soak up dmg, deal a decent amount and keep mobs away from the glasscannons. We can do that, problem is that the so called glasscannons can do without us.
- in pvp, even tho in top 50 there were only 2, in top 200 were 25 (one cause might be that pretty much all were playing as solo) so i call that a good number. When we are saying that a match is balanced is when the class we are facing has a fair change to kill us or be killed by us. HR for example was broken cause no matter what we did they could kill us in seconds, if piercing blade is fix we can start to have a balanced match where if we dont get proned we have a good chance to inflict dmg. CW on the other hand is a balanced match for us, where we can die if they can dodge our skills.
-I've always played with cagi, i find the skill to be rly good and truth is that for pvp it did enough. What they should do is make daring shout a pve skill, put it like a red area that does a damage over time in a small area around the caster, that should make it useless in pvp and still be viable for pve. I think the dmg reduction is a bad thing since now it can be dodged and Cagi alone couldnt kill anyone.
-I do agree that other classes have way too much dmg for pve...
Lol good CWs still struggle 1on1 vs a good GWF thats for sure
Dude, you understanding that your posts contradict BiS players with multiple classes and extensive PREMADE experience since module 1? Such as revolverjesus for example, who at one point manned what I consider the best PvP GWF out there.
I am just curious if you understand how limited your experience is vs these players that you continue to contradict for what seems to be months now.
Firstly, slotting 2 encounter powers and requiring a feat is fairly meaningless. Any other 2 encounters you would slot would give you less damage than Intimidation boosted CAGI/DS. Let's say you went Destroyer and you "had" to pick up Focussed Destroyer for more damage. Same difference really.
Now as for other classes outdpsing GWF. Primarily that's due to target caps and the like. If you had gone through CN and fought every mob group 1 at a time, I can promise you that GWF with similar gear as CW will always outdamage the CW. The moment you gather everything up, CW/SW dps goes through the roof due to them being stronger AoE damage classes. I play mostly my GWF and my CW and that is what happens pretty much all the time.
GWF is a hybrid DPS/Tank while CW is in the current design an AoE damage dealer that is significantly more squishy. However, with how powerful Lifesteal is currently, everyone becomes a tank, which is why as a GWF we sometimes feel outdone both on the damage dealt as well as damage taken side.
Sure, for speed you would certainly want to pull as much as you can before stopping to fight, but you really can't complain that those uncapped classes therefore outdamage you.
That you can close the gap on the CW even with big pulls using just these 2 encounters though shows just how overpowered they are, and that is the main take away message I got from your thread.
What I posted if entirely true..
Firstly I said intimidation does more damage.. I didn't deny that.. I also said it probably does a little too much.. now how much damage does it add to my gwf over when I was spec destroyer.. in ELOL it probably adds around 1.5M for the whole run... for CN it probably adds around 8-10M.... so while it is powerful.. a well built destroyer wouldn't be that far behind
now with the CN run I did with my CW friend.. your thoughts on that are completely wrong as well.. We did the dungeon like a contest.. pushing as hard as we could. We did not do "big pulls" as this would require we coordinate with eachother.. we were competing.. As we rushed to groups of adds we melted them that's it... Now this build of GWF is all burst.. once you use that burst.. it offers almost no dps whatsoever until the encounters come off cooldown.. that's where the CW catches up because it does burst and sustained dps. my point is correct the GWF needs a broken feat like intimidation to close the gap to the class which is "entirely" broken .. the control wizard.. what I say I totally true and it gets frustrating that people will just keep defending a broken class to the point of nerfing others..
No need to say alot, these words ^ sum it all up
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
You're in no position to give advice, as you're pretty much a low skill low gear GWF that never premades. You got told already by Desidus (@xtraordinary91 I think) and some other very good PvP CW, both with BiS gear and very good players about this issue.
Your experience is limited to pugging and trolling forums. I offered to other players/posters here an occasion to test their theories against known BiS PvPers. None have taken my offer yet. I would offer you the same opportunity, but you will just come and get one shot and come to complain more.
You really need to revise your posting. Fun is fun, some trolling is cool as well, but enough is enough.
As for Pandapaul, he is exclusively PvE. His viewpoints come from that direction. I don't see ANY recognized PvP GWFs shedding tears in the forums cause their class is not working.
All in all, you should probably listen to people like yuccapalm and revolverjesus when they drop by, because they tend to be more realistic instead of coming and presenting themselves as the oppressed class of Neverwinter.
And saying that a CW that loses to a GWF is a bad CW is a joke, maybe you need to time that cheese sprint better clonkyo1 and not waste it all during unstoppable like many horrible GWFs ive seen in pvp.
from this thread http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?774991-5-GWF-PvP-20k-GS-why-a-lot-of-players-have-switched-or-complain
how many cw's and how many gwfs does one of the top PvP guilds in neverwinter run ?
That says nothing but the fact they were trollcomping. A bad trollcomp too. I would worry in any team with more than 2 CWs if we get to fight a good rainbow.
1v1 gwf should win but pvp is not 1v1
Because those CWs are all maxed out BiS and premade all day since open beta, and are on TS communicating, while these 5 GWFs are not using their FOTM Intimidation build and are lacking gear/proper PvP build, skill and communication. They are basically a moderately geared trollcomp. They aren't all potted. And they are not used to high level premades.
Also the enemy GWF runs Intimidation with 10K Power+ which can one-shot people easy. As you can see he has most kills
By the way, if these 5 GWFs would get BiS gear, FOTM build and try the game again, they might still lose.
Why?
Because they lack the premade experience and they probably don't communicate. Also you need an interceptor class such as the CW to try and stop people going to nodes. GWF as a melee not too good at that.
against facts there is no argument. devs, what you need see to understand the real situation of this game?
perma this, perma that not enough to understand the "real" gwf is different from fantasy that created by this people to take advantage? the game being broken like now is not a proof?
my good lord... open your **** eyes!
Your own kind has more empathy towards your antics than other players that have nothing in common with you. Hence they just let you do your thing, cause your mostly harmeless towards them, as you only ask GWF buffs which, should you succeed, will benefit them as well.
Thanks for the CWvsGWF lessons, master