While I've met CWs who sure did a ton of damage, in most cases they cant win 1x1 vs my GF or GWF and that is a fact. Of course both my toons having 18-20K GS is also a fact. I cant say if those guys I fought were bis or not since I cant be bothered to inspect them and I dont know the top PVPer's names by heart but anyone who can take my nearly 20K PVP GF' HP to half in a few seconds has to be pretty strong. So, without claiming that I have fought the best PVP CWs out there I say that fighters can have a clear advantage in a 1x1 scenario largely thanks to cc immunities.
PS: as a whole the CW class has way too much going for it, way too much. PVE king for as long as we can all remember, thery are also a legitimate top PVP threat. Control, damage, range, dodge immunity even tankiness, they got it. I dont it like it but everything Neverwinter is subject to change so I dont care anymore.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
CW being superior to GWF in 1v1 pvp is nothing different from other MMORPGs. See all the videos of WoW frost mage Vurtne winning 1v5 against Melee opponents.
Panda's post though is about PvE. Now, while he describes the current condition of the class very accurately (and also what created, module after module, this situation), what he is asking for is less clear. It is all diluted in his wall of text.
ToD = ..........
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
@clonkyo: just stop. You are the one making a fool of yourself
@thread: when will this community understand that 1vs1 secenarios are not the only indicator of usefulness of a class? This assumpion comes exclusively from players without pvp endgame premade expirience, where micro coordination of skills, coordination of matchups and rotation is key to win a match. Beeing equal geared and knowing his class is mandatory ofc in such a situation.
Dont take me wrong. I pug alot too. But I do this with the right expectations. If I run against a troll comp of 5 HRs, or 5 CWs with a pug group, I am most likely to loose. If i go alone, as a GWF, against a BiS HR I will loose. I dont expect to win a duel everytime.
What are you all thinking?
I read all the time: "every class should have the potential to beat any other class" fast adding with a cough cough: "except the cleric ofc". Why? "Yeah u know, its a support class, clerics dont do dmg they are for healz"
Have you people ever thiught about the fact, that 1vs1 scenarios are completly missleading in a game with different class like support, dmg, healing? A tank for example should be a worse 1vs1 class than a HR, but should shine more in 2vs2, 3vs3 etc. If u want true balance play chess or counterstrike.
Couple of days ago I went together with four of the best and most geared HRs into pvp. It was a troll group and we just did it to see hiw worse unbalance can get. Nothing could compete vs us. Pugs or premades alike. So, if we want our stats to improve we could just roll that troll comp forever, having zero losses and only wins. Guess what, that is BORING AS HELL!
If I come up vs such a troll comp I just "lol" and say "gg".
I want to encourage players to run rainbow comps. That is the real fun and a blast in pvp. You will still loose because of some imbalances, but you still have much fun and tension.
Stop measuring balance with inadequate situations like random pugging, bad geared players, players who dont know what they are doing etc.
So many balance attempts from the devs were based on such false situations… if you really want to imrlove this game, vote for a FREE CHOOSING LOBBY SYSTEM. Lets put balancing matchups in the hand of the players, instead of a random, poorly matchmaking.
CW being superior to GWF in 1v1 pvp is nothing different from other MMORPGs. See all the videos of WoW frost mage Vurtne winning 1v5 against Melee opponents.
That's totally, absolutely different thing. In that game CC break is on 2 min CD (PVP trinket, was on 5 min CD when first introduced). In NW GWF is auto-win against CW because of constant CC immunity of GWF (rage is constantly renewing resource).
frost mage Vurtne winning 1v5 against Melee opponents.
That was in Vanilla version (2005?), before there was any PvP gear and the game was in incipient form. Many things changed since then. Warriors had their periods of utter superiority as well, if I can remember right.
0
sidewazeMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 31Arc User
I don't see ANY recognized PvP GWFs shedding tears in the forums cause their class is not working.
Thing is, I think we got sick and tired of coming to the Forums trying to get our class balanced out for PvP. It's not a priority for devs, and we continue to get new adjustments. The frustrating thing is we spend AD and time, resources, adjusting our build and our gear. Putting in more Power over Crit/AP, etc. to take advantage, most recently, of Sentinel/Intimidation. OK now we're Brawling again. Then boom, let's get a nerf to the damage.
PvP players get no respectable discussion, usually from Devs. No player gets feat re-specs. No recourse for gear adjustments made to adjust. All in all, it seems like a fairly weak feedback experience.
So we GWFs will continue to wait to see each mod what happens to our class, that we've invested alot of time and effort into. And we'll adjust. And people will cry, and we'll get moved around again, and we'll adjust.
Why come to the forums and shed tears? Class hasn't really worked in a balanced way forever. This is what every class deals with in PvP.
It would be nice to think feedback mattered in any kind of way to the devs is why. Like it obviously doesn't because they are going to do whatever they want and best case they pay lip service attention to toady feedback and then be horrified at the sometimes obvious and predictable outcomes or praise obviously unintended consequences as good balance.
GWF doesn't need huge buffs at least none that effect PvP too much. I'm glad intimidation gets nerfed even tho I think it should be nerfed 10-20% more.
The situation that there are very few GWFs in the top ranks kinda suggest otherwise. I think removing all non-daily prone attacks from pvp would help, except perhaps the CWs Shards of EA, which is so slow to cast that anybody can dodge that any times if they see it coming and might dodge it instinctively even if they don't, which is why no experienced CW uses it in pvp.
Also removing that annoying screen position moving forwards and backwards would help. I thought it was annoying with CW, but try to be able to aim close quarter attacks when the screen some times scales back to make your as high as can be half-orc GWF into smaller than my halfling rogue and then suddenly it shifts back and he is again half screen high and blocking vision. It would be nice to be able to choose how far behind your camera is, but uncontrollable and nearly totally random movement is extremely annoying.
I agree TR should be the single target DPS master still, but then it should have more limited hiding ability the more DPS it can do to make a choice. Killing tanks from shadows is a bit too much. Also the combination classes shouldn't really be so high in the DPS charts, as they are making clear choice that they want to be the jacks of all trades, masters of none. Currently HR can pretty much melee any class with ease, even tanks, especially with their prone attack/ArmPen combination or OHK with their bow most classes or choose some really effective middle ground.
SW in turn can simply go outrun GWF until both are out of stamina and then when they move the same speed by walking, they can back away and shoot the GWF to pieces, GWF never getting into a hitting distance and even if they will, SW has tons of HP to burn trough, which makes sure their high DPS has killed the GWF before. If this isn't enough, they can also put in really hard hitting DoTs that last very long time and worst of all, shoot trough pillars, which is unique to the class. I have seen many people dodge even Icy Rays going behind pillars, but the SWs ray can be shot right trough the pillars, which is even worse than the fact that when the ray seems to go straight over or under you, it still hits anything above or bellow it.
I started playing GWF only after the 4th mod (but have risen to Invincible Overlord slot in pvp, so I might know something about the class by now) and I definitely don't mourn for the lost prone attacks, which's removal was long overdue, but I don't either want to see a future where you can't compete against TR or HR one on one close quarters, can't get close to SW before being killed and which out DPSs you in close quarters too and are too closely on par with CWs and GFs. Who is there left to kill, clerics? (until they are buffed too).
/end of rant
Give us 4 or more power/item bar profiles so we can change powers and items with one click that are suited for the situation.
mod 1 gwfs were persona non grata in any dungeon party
mod 2 gwfs finally did close to cw damage but had none of the utility
skipped mod 3
mod 4 gwf again do mediocre dps
and i dont care if gwf was op in that 2 map fail of a pvp
Comments
PS: as a whole the CW class has way too much going for it, way too much. PVE king for as long as we can all remember, thery are also a legitimate top PVP threat. Control, damage, range, dodge immunity even tankiness, they got it. I dont it like it but everything Neverwinter is subject to change so I dont care anymore.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Panda's post though is about PvE. Now, while he describes the current condition of the class very accurately (and also what created, module after module, this situation), what he is asking for is less clear. It is all diluted in his wall of text.
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
@thread: when will this community understand that 1vs1 secenarios are not the only indicator of usefulness of a class? This assumpion comes exclusively from players without pvp endgame premade expirience, where micro coordination of skills, coordination of matchups and rotation is key to win a match. Beeing equal geared and knowing his class is mandatory ofc in such a situation.
Dont take me wrong. I pug alot too. But I do this with the right expectations. If I run against a troll comp of 5 HRs, or 5 CWs with a pug group, I am most likely to loose. If i go alone, as a GWF, against a BiS HR I will loose. I dont expect to win a duel everytime.
What are you all thinking?
I read all the time: "every class should have the potential to beat any other class" fast adding with a cough cough: "except the cleric ofc". Why? "Yeah u know, its a support class, clerics dont do dmg they are for healz"
Have you people ever thiught about the fact, that 1vs1 scenarios are completly missleading in a game with different class like support, dmg, healing? A tank for example should be a worse 1vs1 class than a HR, but should shine more in 2vs2, 3vs3 etc. If u want true balance play chess or counterstrike.
Couple of days ago I went together with four of the best and most geared HRs into pvp. It was a troll group and we just did it to see hiw worse unbalance can get. Nothing could compete vs us. Pugs or premades alike. So, if we want our stats to improve we could just roll that troll comp forever, having zero losses and only wins. Guess what, that is BORING AS HELL!
If I come up vs such a troll comp I just "lol" and say "gg".
I want to encourage players to run rainbow comps. That is the real fun and a blast in pvp. You will still loose because of some imbalances, but you still have much fun and tension.
Stop measuring balance with inadequate situations like random pugging, bad geared players, players who dont know what they are doing etc.
So many balance attempts from the devs were based on such false situations… if you really want to imrlove this game, vote for a FREE CHOOSING LOBBY SYSTEM. Lets put balancing matchups in the hand of the players, instead of a random, poorly matchmaking.
That's totally, absolutely different thing. In that game CC break is on 2 min CD (PVP trinket, was on 5 min CD when first introduced). In NW GWF is auto-win against CW because of constant CC immunity of GWF (rage is constantly renewing resource).
That was in Vanilla version (2005?), before there was any PvP gear and the game was in incipient form. Many things changed since then. Warriors had their periods of utter superiority as well, if I can remember right.
PvP players get no respectable discussion, usually from Devs. No player gets feat re-specs. No recourse for gear adjustments made to adjust. All in all, it seems like a fairly weak feedback experience.
So we GWFs will continue to wait to see each mod what happens to our class, that we've invested alot of time and effort into. And we'll adjust. And people will cry, and we'll get moved around again, and we'll adjust.
Why come to the forums and shed tears? Class hasn't really worked in a balanced way forever. This is what every class deals with in PvP.
-Outkast@sidewaze
It's supposed to Intimidate, make people scared, make them FEAR when you're approaching !!
The situation that there are very few GWFs in the top ranks kinda suggest otherwise. I think removing all non-daily prone attacks from pvp would help, except perhaps the CWs Shards of EA, which is so slow to cast that anybody can dodge that any times if they see it coming and might dodge it instinctively even if they don't, which is why no experienced CW uses it in pvp.
Also removing that annoying screen position moving forwards and backwards would help. I thought it was annoying with CW, but try to be able to aim close quarter attacks when the screen some times scales back to make your as high as can be half-orc GWF into smaller than my halfling rogue and then suddenly it shifts back and he is again half screen high and blocking vision. It would be nice to be able to choose how far behind your camera is, but uncontrollable and nearly totally random movement is extremely annoying.
I agree TR should be the single target DPS master still, but then it should have more limited hiding ability the more DPS it can do to make a choice. Killing tanks from shadows is a bit too much. Also the combination classes shouldn't really be so high in the DPS charts, as they are making clear choice that they want to be the jacks of all trades, masters of none. Currently HR can pretty much melee any class with ease, even tanks, especially with their prone attack/ArmPen combination or OHK with their bow most classes or choose some really effective middle ground.
SW in turn can simply go outrun GWF until both are out of stamina and then when they move the same speed by walking, they can back away and shoot the GWF to pieces, GWF never getting into a hitting distance and even if they will, SW has tons of HP to burn trough, which makes sure their high DPS has killed the GWF before. If this isn't enough, they can also put in really hard hitting DoTs that last very long time and worst of all, shoot trough pillars, which is unique to the class. I have seen many people dodge even Icy Rays going behind pillars, but the SWs ray can be shot right trough the pillars, which is even worse than the fact that when the ray seems to go straight over or under you, it still hits anything above or bellow it.
I started playing GWF only after the 4th mod (but have risen to Invincible Overlord slot in pvp, so I might know something about the class by now) and I definitely don't mourn for the lost prone attacks, which's removal was long overdue, but I don't either want to see a future where you can't compete against TR or HR one on one close quarters, can't get close to SW before being killed and which out DPSs you in close quarters too and are too closely on par with CWs and GFs. Who is there left to kill, clerics? (until they are buffed too).
/end of rant
Another gwf, that's all you can kill as a gwf.
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
mod 1 gwfs were persona non grata in any dungeon party
mod 2 gwfs finally did close to cw damage but had none of the utility
skipped mod 3
mod 4 gwf again do mediocre dps
and i dont care if gwf was op in that 2 map fail of a pvp