Since you only include one parse specifically for MoF and not your flipside Spellstorm...well again you'll just have to forgive me for not taking your word that your MoF build functions better than your Spellstorm build. Isn't that your point here?
No, actually. That's not my point at all. My point is that you don't have a clue what you're doing when you're playing as a MoF. My point is that it is possible to have an extremely good MoF build.
I have a prayer-bot GWF who is level 60. If I grabbed him, equipped some feats and some epic armor, and ran some ACT parses on his outgoing damage on test dummies then slapped it in the GWF boards decrying how awful GWF's were, I would be rightfully derided and told I was clueless at how to play their class well. My testing would be worthless because I don't know what I'm doing! When it comes to MoF builds...neither do you. Yet even with a very, very poor MoF build you are putting out equal damage to your Spellstorm build...and you weren't even aware of it because you were looking at the wrong data column.
My point is that no one should take your assessment of MoF CW class seriously because you don't know what you're talking about.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
another super secret top-notch MoF build? guys, where do you hide your hunky-dory? i wanna get to that Wonderland as well!
no, really. after 1000+ runs i was outdpsed a few dozens of times and guess by whom? not a MoF. i do really-really love to take my guildies-MoF with me in any dungeon. i believe such synergy contributes a lot to a party performance. but twice as my damage without counting double of my debuffs? really want to look at that. hope you'll be able to make a run with me this weekend. i'll msg you ingame. cheers
The mechanics of how paingiver is calculated and how smolder is calculated gives spellstorm the appearance of overperformance in dungeons. That's because a MOF will buff the SS and give some of their DPS to the SS. Paingiver is not respective of performance.
It seems to me the only reason anyone ever gives about a particular race/class/armor set/encounter rotation/feats/whatnot is "bad" is when it doesn't benefit YOU when the other player is using it. (General "you" - this isn't addressed directly to any one). This is why I don't bother min-maxing because it's no different than fantasy football: it's all a futile attempt at accomplishing anything real and tangible; entertainment only (which may be okay for you, but no interest for me - nothing wrong with that).
Hence: I say threads like this are complete nonsense and nothing but useless rhetoric. I am replying only to make a point, more or less, that my opinion (as all comments are) is that the OP's arguments are all bunk.
I have two level 60 Wizards - one is a SpellStorm, the other is MoF and I love playing them both. I play MoF for ME, not you. If I'm is a party I will use my skills, encounters, dailies, etc. as I am able to help benefit the entire team, sure - but just because it doesn't affect your personal stats in any way is a personal problem for you. (Again - general "you"). If your complaint is in how the player is *playing* then the OP sure wasted a lot of time writing and readers' time reading.
I find it amazing when people playing one race/class/paragon path complain about a different race/class/paragon path. It's absolutely ridiculous in a genuinely funny sort of way.
Don't get me wrong - I understand the passion, and most of the comments in this thread are good ones making valid points. It's just the overall subject matter that I find to be the problem: So, at the OP: MoF is worse at everything because you aren't using it and yet others using it does't benefit YOU directly? Are you reading what you're writing? I'm asking because this is the take-away I'm getting off your OP.
As was said by Chemboy: it's a matter of play-style and what we as individuals enjoy. I refuse to let your angst interfere with my fun.
TL;DR: This thread is an exercise in frivolous debate: Both paragons are good and equally so when based on the enjoyment of the person actually playing them. If someone else's play-style or set-up does not benefit YOU directly there is no plausible reason to bash on their chosen play-style or set-up, except that you believe you are more important than they are. You are the selfish SOB in the end. (That would be the "Shortness Of Breath for the angst within you," in case anyone mistakes that acronym).
The mechanics of how paingiver is calculated and how smolder is calculated gives spellstorm the appearance of overperformance in dungeons. That's because a MOF will buff the SS and give some of their DPS to the SS. Paingiver is not respective of performance.
so basicly you're trying to prove that MoF is so tremendous but somehow we aren't able to figure out in which way exactly cause we can't measure it.
not a paingiver chart. ok, can agree here. what else? how smooth run was? well right now i can carry any group in eSoT including soloing last boss. all other party can walk in a relax mode. without MoF, DC or any other buffers (btw i prefer debuff cleric in a party over any other class including GF tho i'm squishy as hell but i adapted to hard hitters). not a measure as well? tell me the way then. dummy test and comparing how much dps? in what exactly way MoF is 'overperfoming' SS?
so basicly you're trying to prove that MoF is so tremendous but somehow we aren't able to figure out in which way exactly cause we can't measure it.
not a paingiver chart. ok, can agree here. what else? how smooth run was? well right now i can carry any group in eSoT including soloing last boss. all other party can walk in a relax mode. without MoF, DC or any other buffers (btw i prefer debuff cleric in a party over any other class including GF tho i'm squishy as hell but i adapted to hard hitters). not a measure as well? tell me the way then. dummy test and comparing how much dps? in what exactly way MoF is 'overperfoming' SS?
Well for starters see the thread I started entitled "CW Testing". That gives some data.
But I think the real point here is that when Master of Flame first emerged back in Mod2, a lot of CWs tested it out initially and concluded that it was garbage. But subsequent testing by people like chemboy and abaddon have concluded that MoFs are not in fact garbage, but CAN perform quite well.
Well for starters see the thread I started entitled "CW Testing". That gives some data.
But I think the real point here is that when Master of Flame first emerged back in Mod2, a lot of CWs tested it out initially and concluded that it was garbage. But subsequent testing by people like chemboy and abaddon have concluded that MoFs are not in fact garbage, but CAN perform quite well.
Look mate I played the MoF build since it came out until the advent of Module 4. (And I've played every different flavor of MoF on live since Module 4, as well.) It's not like I'm just waltzing onto the CW forums and claiming MoF is worse out of thin air. It's because, in both dungeon runs and parsing, it under performs Spellstorm in every metric I've tested. Module 4 has broken MoF since it turned Spellstorm into a better version of the same thing. Not sure how anyone could deny this with Storm Spell being Smolder 2.0 and Sudden Storm being better than FtF in every way.
People like to say that MoF can do well, I agree with them. That was never the point. The point is that Spellstorm does more of everything than a MoF can hope to do. I am not trying to troll people here so I'm going to triple check my posts from here on out for tone.
I want MoF to do something again. Maybe the only way to get people to pay attention is to point out how much it's underperforming, because right now it's in a terrible place compared to Spellstorm. I tend to agree with Chem that Chilling Control is one of the primary causes for what's gone wrong but both being different flavors of DoT is also an issue to me. On top of that the Shard nerf, combined with everything else, is hurting the MoF way more than it's hurting the Spellstorm.
No, actually. That's not my point at all. My point is that you don't have a clue what you're doing when you're playing as a MoF. My point is that it is possible to have an extremely good MoF build.
Yet even with a very, very poor MoF build you are putting out equal damage to your Spellstorm build...and you weren't even aware of it because you were looking at the wrong data column.
My point is that no one should take your assessment of MoF CW class seriously because you don't know what you're talking about.
So, you concede that even though I'm a jerk and ignorant my general assessment of MoF is essentially correct in that it underperforms MoF in every way. Your lack of any value-added argument towards the central premise of this thread speaks far louder than your actual commentary.
I was absolutely looking at the wrong column. It doesn't change the fact that these parses are already fundamentally leaned in favor of the MoF for a variety of reasons that I've already talked about. As I've already admitted they come close until you consider I was hobbling my Spellstorms damage and going all-out on the MoF. I can only imagine you don't want to put them side-by-side because you already know my results are true so you need to distract from the central point of the thread and argue minutiae.
Well yes your tone matters. You provocatively declare that basically people who play MoFs are losers. I'm going to take offense at that. Presenting your results under controlled conditions would be more conducive to actual discussion.
So, you concede that even though I'm a jerk and ignorant my general assessment of MoF is essentially correct in that it underperforms MoF in every way.
I don't agree with that at all. And it is baffling that you could have read what I wrote and reached the conclusion that I do agree with you. Aren't you the one chiding others about reading comprehension?
Your lack of any value-added argument towards the central premise of this thread speaks far louder than your actual commentary.
The trouble is you were not interested in value-added arguments. Many people attempted to defend the MoF group utility and damage output. You did not listen to them. Instead you demanded that they "man up" and post parses to prove their point. Well I did just that. I "manned up" and showed that a MoF build can blow your Spellstorm build out of the water. Now that someone accepted your challenge you're crying foul that I'm not adding value to the conversation just by posting parses.
I was absolutely looking at the wrong column. It doesn't change the fact that these parses are already fundamentally leaned in favor of the MoF for a variety of reasons that I've already talked about.
So we've established that you had no idea how to parse data in ACT up until right now. Yet you are still going to proclaim foolish things like:
It's not like I'm just waltzing onto the CW forums and claiming MoF is worse out of thin air. It's because, in both dungeon runs and parsing, it under performs Spellstorm in every metric I've tested.
Why should we trust your testing capabilities at all when we've established you don't know what you're doing when you're parsing data? I parse data all the time and equally geared, equally skilled MoF CW's have no trouble keeping up with Spellstorm CW's in damage output. If you credit the groups Rimefire Smoulder damage to the MoF CW only then they would come out ahead in most situations. But Neverwinter credits smoulder damage to anyone who hits the enemy and refreshes the smoulder, which is kinda silly.
As I've already admitted they come close until you consider I was hobbling my Spellstorms damage and going all-out on the MoF.
The problem is you don't know how to play MoF well at all so even when you are going "all-out" on a MoF build your damage is badly, badly crippled compared to what it could be.
I can only imagine you don't want to put them side-by-side because you already know my results are true so you need to distract from the central point of the thread and argue minutiae.
Sigh. Again with the arrogance and presumptuousness. You don't know what my DPS is as a Spellstorm. You don't know know my rotations are. You don't know how I prefer to play. Tell you what, here's another parse. For this one I unequipped everything on the right side of my character sheet (all rings, neck items, clothing, and belt) as well as my offhand talisman. I made all of my companions except my Ioun Stone idle. I equipped a set of High Vizier equipment and a Orb of the Dread Ring with a Perfect Vorpal. My gear score was 11.9k. I had 6381 power and 944 critical strike. Here's my damage output with a MoF build:
Hmmm...still doing 27,467 DPS on three test dummies. That's 40% more damage than you are doing on your spellstorm. Can't blame that on a gear difference. The problem is not the Master of Flame paragon path. The problem is you and your inability to play it well.
Oh...well I wonder why that might be. Weren't you just telling me not to talk about things I don't play?
I was telling you and others that you don't understand how to play Master of Flame well and, as such, your analysis of it compared to the Spell Storm path should not be taken seriously. While I play as a Spell Storm I actually do know how to play the Master of the Flame path well. Certainly well enough to tell that you do not.
*Edit*
I got curious so I did the following: I unequipped everything except for High Vizier Armor and an Orb of the Dread Legion. No pets, no artifacts, no enchantments of any kind, no rings, no belt, no offhand, no necklace, no clothes, no boons. My gear score is 7,594. I have 3070 power and 0 Critical strike. Here's a parse of me beating up on three dummies as a MoF:
I was able to do sustained 18,537 DPS for a little over 4 minutes.
huh and i thought i was clever against hrimnir by using furious immolation followed by fanning the flames on hrimnir to hit him with lots of mini-bombs. thought it was actually really good dps since i always topped paingiver even with spellstorms there.
well again you'll just have to forgive me for not taking your word that your MoF build functions better than your Spellstorm build. Isn't that your point here?
I don't agree with that at all. And it is baffling that you could have read what I wrote and reached the conclusion that I do agree with you. Aren't you the one chiding others about reading comprehension?
I assume when someone fails to address the core argument and instead chooses to concentrate on personal attacks that they must agree with the core premise and are merely trying to deflect the conversation towards a different subject.
Otherwise, a person such as yourself would certainly shut me down with a simple side-by-side comparison on their MoF vs. Spellstorm builds that would show a roughly equal performance in both controlling effects, damage, and debuff.
Since you have not done that yet you went through the effort of parsing, editing, and posting a few snips of virtually useless data I can only conclude that your entire point of posting is character assassination and egotism instead of education. Your attempt at not rewarding my ignorance with knowledge is the most entertaining thing I've read this week. Heck, I might have a new forum signature!
^_^
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
I assume when someone fails to address the core argument and instead chooses to concentrate on personal attacks that they must agree with the core premise and are merely trying to deflect the conversation towards a different subject...
I can only conclude that your entire point of posting is character assassination and egotism instead of education.
You don't know what character assassination is. Character assassination is when someone lies about or brings up facts irrelevant to the debate to try and call into question the moral character of their debate opponent. If you were making your statements about the inferiority of MoF CW's and I tried to argue with you by stating that no one should believe you because you cheat at cards and steal from the church collection plate, then I would be engaging in character assassination. However, pointing out woeful deficiencies in competence in your ability to parse data and play MoF CW effectively I am not engaging in character assassination, I'm revealing to your audience your lack of credentials to be considered an authority on the matter. It would be no different than if someone who had failed high school physics and had no further education on the topic was attempting to be a keynote speaker at a Quantum Physics conference and someone objected on the grounds that they don't know anything on the topic. That's not character assassination; it's germane objection to their ability to speak correctly on the subject.
You can make a game of this if you like and try to provoke further reaction or make silly assumptions about what I'm not saying. That's fine. I'm not interested in this for the sport of trading verbal jabs on a message board. My goal is to inform people who are new to the game or who are curious about the MoF paragon path that the opening premise of this thread is utter garbage. All of the evidence presented is anecdotal or depends on bad assumptions about gear and spell rotations MoF CW's use. You've misinterpreted your inability to play the MoF class well with a deficiency in the mechanics of the MoF class.
If anyone would like to learn how to play the MoF class well I'd point them to Kaelac's Master of Flame handbook:
so basicly you're trying to prove that MoF is so tremendous but somehow we aren't able to figure out in which way exactly cause we can't measure it.
not a paingiver chart. ok, can agree here. what else? how smooth run was? well right now i can carry any group in eSoT including soloing last boss. all other party can walk in a relax mode. without MoF, DC or any other buffers (btw i prefer debuff cleric in a party over any other class including GF tho i'm squishy as hell but i adapted to hard hitters). not a measure as well? tell me the way then. dummy test and comparing how much dps? in what exactly way MoF is 'overperfoming' SS?
Well, my rough math means that say a MOF is running swath or desturction, this means if i'm in a team with a spellstorm, that SS CW's DPS will increase about 20%, but my personal DPS will decrease 5%, so while it looks like the SS is beating me by 25%, i am actually responsible for a large increase in THEIR DPS (and btw 15% to everyone else).
How smooth the run is is a good measure. Speed is important, but i would rather have a very smooth run than a very fast one.
The flaw is that just looking at paingiver, or only our INDIVIDUAL ACT's does not give the full picture of the interaction.
This is why MOF "looks" worse but is not actually worse. It just appears so at first glance.
But you know, yes i do want to do good damage, but my SS teammates beats me on DPS, but if we can 2 man and blaze through CN like an atomic knife through butter, why should i care about paingiver?
chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited October 2014
Ok... abbadon and Spacejew - both friends of mine. Let's not attack EACH OTHER as people, but stay focused on the facts. Personal attacks have very limited place here.
Both of you have some good ideas, some of them have flaws too, but i don't feel like arguing, instead I imagined something.
Let's imagine there are 3 developers sitting around the conference room at Cryptic, named Will, Matt, and Jim.
Will: Ok everyone, it's obvious that through mod 3, CWs are very powerful. They always win paingiver, they can control better than other classes, and because content is full of controlable mobs, people are running groups with 3 or 4 CWs, and not taking other classes.
Bill: Ok, so, say i came into the game in beta, and I rolled a TR, which i loved playing for months. Now i'm geared and I want to farm CN. I have say, a greater vorpal, a stone, and 14k GS, so I'm sitting pretty right? I can just go PUG and have fun, get loot?
Matt: Actually no, remember that time in Mod 0 when 13 year old kids with their parents credit cards whined on facebook about how TR is so OP in PvP, and we nerfed TR's DPS into the ground?
Will: Yeah, I remember that. Apparently, even though lashing blade and impact shot have very loud, very obvious sounds that create a large dodge window, players are unable to find the shift key in time. Therefore we nerfed TR into the ground.
Jim: Well how bad is it?
Matt: a 16k CW and a 16k TR go into the dungeon. Both are great players. The CW out DPSes the TR 4:1 and never dies. The TR dies when a single mob looks at him, has no AOE, and almost no control.
Jim: Great scott!
Will: The point is, most players have shelfed their beloved TRs, GFs, DCs, HRs, and now roll CWs.
Jim: But surely the gear is an issue. A new CW might be 12k and an old TR might be 17k, surely that TR does better than the CW.
Matt: Actually, no. A 12k CW is better than a 17k TR in basically every way.
Will: As sad as that is, we are going to forget about it until Mod 5. By now all the TR players have quit except for some hardcore PvPer. They do this Permastealth build with bilethorn. That way a burst DPS melee class can do basically no damage from range, run around and hide in the shadows like cowards. But hey, it works.
Jim: Ok ok, so back to this CW problem. We obviously need to design content where there are less controllable adds, more space between pulls, the mobs hit hard. That way people will want to run with GF, DC, and TR again.
Matt: Actually, I have something to say on that. I've worked with the Dev team on this project. It's called Tyranny of Dailies internally, but we call it Tyranny of Dragons to the world. It has a skirmish and a dungeon where most CWs will get one shot, most of the adds can't be controlled well, and the mobs are spread out as to make AOE powers less useful.
Jim: Matt, that sounds great!
Matt: Now get this, you also have to kill dragons to advance and get boons. The last two boons either require these super rare items or a ton of campaign currency.
Will: So what do they do.
Matt: Well, for example I have a GF with 1500 regen. If get these last two boons I can get 200 more regen and 3% more lifesteal. This means that for the low price of four million astral diamonds OR 40 days of griding dailies, I can increase my incoming healing 2% overall! Doesn't that sound great?
Jim: Oh yeah bro, sign me up for that!
Matt: Now, get this the dragons are on 20 minute timers. People don't like to wait, so they all can kill these things in about 90 seconds. Then people have to spend however long, say, 10 of 15 minutes for them to respawn. This means that everyone will spend an hour every day just standing around.
Will: Go on,
Matt: Then, we make limited resources for players to fight over, so they all run around like headless chickens on their mounts. This will annoying them massively if they have slow mounts because players with fast mounts will ninja their quest items. Hence, during the hour a day they spend standing around the zone with nothing to do, they will browse the zen store, get their parent's credit card, and drop 25-40$ on a mount. Isn't that great?
Jim: And while they were there, they might also buy enchanted keys, where you have a 99.5% chance of getting something useless, a .4% chance of getting something cool looking, and a .1% chance of getting something you actually want!
Matt: Exactly. Think how many impulse buys this will create!
Will: Great work Matt. I'm sure marketing will be pleased. They told me they are getting tired of sniffing wipeboard markers over there.
Matt: Oh yeah, I'll send the marketing department gift baskets from Harry and David. You know they love overpriced condiments from places you never heard of.
Jim: Ok though, back to CW. The problem is that in the Thaum tree, elemental empowerment and assailing force allow debuff stacking to the sky, meaning that a 15k party can melt draco in 90 seconds. Taking anyone other than a CW or a DC in High Prophet lowers team DPS so much that other classes are irreverent and can't get groups.
Matt: Wait, are you saying the best DC set is a T1 set with bugged boots that always drop bound?
Will: That's besides the point, no one cares about DCs. Our studies show DC players spend less cash that other players. What about GWFs, don't they have deep gash and student of the sword and survive really well.
Matt: Remember, we nerfed that to nothing because of people whining in PvP.
Will: Oh yeah, so go on.
Jim: Well, apparently everyone thinks that Spellstorm, Vorpal, and Thaumaturge is the way to go, so 95% of CWs run identical Specs, and use the High Vizier set. Doing anything else involves the team calling you "****" and "useless" and you get vote-kicked because "UR DPS is no good, if you use vorpal our run would be 30 seconds faster, GTFO."
Matt: Wait, did we do extensive testing and showed that stacking Terror and Plaguefire really increase team DPS and make the run more efficient.
Jim: Yes, we did. Apparently good players know this too, but they don't use them.
Matt: Why not? it's obviously better.
Will: We just got a post from twitter about this, it says "n0 1 wants 2 b the ****** holding the GPF."
Matt: So wait, you are telling me that people actually make themselves play worse, make their team play worse, increase the chance that the run will fail, drop their defensive stats, all so that they can win paingiver?
Jim: Exactly. Apparently being a good teammate means nothing to people at all. They all just want to have the biggest ****.
Matt: Wow, who are these guys anyway?
Will: Well, most of them are hardcore gamers that can't get girls anyway, so they compensate for their feelings of inadequacy and emasculation in the real world by winning paingiver.
Matt: Gosh, that makes me want to take a bottle of vallium and forget the world is like this.
Jim: Anyway, some smart people figured it out. They found that including a MOF CW and running plaguefire and terror makes the run super efficient. Did you see Chem, Nano, and Orianna 3 man CN? No wipes, no downs, no potions. That's obviously the best way to play.
Will: But see, even though the stormspell vorpal player was the only one to die and struggle, he still won paingiver. That is what is most important to these people.
Matt: My god, the little things humans fight over. I thought this was supposed to be a team game.
Will: Apparently not.
Jim: Anyway, thaum is obviously the best path, and stormspell is the most popular paragon. But look, here is a post from a 16 year old in Cambridge Mass. We got it on facebook. "U must nerf Rene CW. Feats too good, crit too hard. I die easy in PvP. 9k GS in blues, and this CW just two shots me. WTF, Renegade OP!" I checked out his profile. Next page shows him playing in a Yu-gi-oh tournamnet.
Will: Isn't that that silly, expensive, money sink where kids spends tons of their parents money on cards so they can like, i don't know, summon flower dragons or something?
Matt: Yeah, they have a great business over there. We obviously need to capture that revenue.
Jim: Ok, now there is another post here from a 13 year old in Mt. Caramel, CA. He just used his parent's credit card to by the hero of the north pack.
Will: Oh man, i can see those hotties on the beach on my next vacation now.
Jim: he says "Oppressor CW OP in PvP. Mof OP in PvP. I get choke, i got burn, can't stealth. F this game."
Matt: So wait, you are saying a paying "customer" with money to burn is telling us to F off?
Jim: Yeah, apparently he is now playing Pokemon on his Nintendo DS.
Matt: Gosh! think of the lost revenue. How am I going to buy my next BMW now?
Will: Ok, so we obviously need to fix this. Sure, stormspell and thaumaturge is popular right now, and I know we publicly say we want class balance, but what we really want is for people to spend money.
Matt: Well, how else are you going to pick up Caribbean babes in your Hawaiian shirt that covers up your beer belly?
Will: Exactly. So let's make Stormspell even better in PvE. Meanwhile let's nerf oppressor and renegade to satisfy those PvP whiners.
Jim: What about MOF?
Will: Ok, we'll nerf the only good fire spell they have. That way bad TRs who whine and complain about everything will spend money trying to get giant beetles instead of spending money on pokemon.
Matt: Ok, so wait, we are just going to screw balance so that we can line our pockets with easy money?
Will: Yes exactly. Smart players will still know that debuffs and MOF are the way to go, but smart players don't spend money. Good players also don't spend money. We want to make the bad, dumb players happy.
Jim: Woohoo! sounds like a great idea.
Matt: How about we go to San Jose and go to the shooting stars casino? I feel like playing roulette right now. Our chances of doing well there are so much better than they are at work.
Will: Great, let's meet for overpriced burgers and cheap, bad tasting beer first.
Jim: Great!
Anyway, this is what the CW "balance" meeting must have looked like. Hope you all find it amusing.
However, pointing out woeful deficiencies in competence in your ability to parse data and play MoF CW effectively I am not engaging in character assassination, I'm revealing to your audience your lack of credentials to be considered an authority on the matter.
Ah, my mistake then!
So uhh...still not going to post any parse comparisons though huh? I guess since you've settled into insulting me there isn't anywhere else to go in our little discussion unless you decide to show yours. After all, you've seen mine right? I feel teased good sir! ^_-
That rendition of what their meetings must be like was pretty good. Needs to be sleazier with more meme talk though. THe most amazing move recently I found personally was selling dungeon keys for real money to broken delve chests. How dirty is that. At least they only sell videogame stuff, not medical equipment
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited October 2014
I don't think it will affect my MOF playstyle much. Assailing Force on encounters will just reduce frequency, not a ton.
The big change is in stormspell. what's the current chance? 10%? that might be a buff :S
It pretty much eliminates it from pvp because you would have to stack crit and lose your armour pen. Next to no effect on the majority of pve. I guess they really want people to buy renegade respecs
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kieranmtornMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 382Arc User
I don't think it will affect my MOF playstyle much. Assailing Force on encounters will just reduce frequency, not a ton.
The big change is in stormspell. what's the current chance? 10%? that might be a buff :S
Current Chance is 20%. I think this will be a substantial reduction since it will only check the 30% on Crits (this is speculation). Will make EotS even more important.
Any gap between SS and MoF is likely to be reduced by these changes coming in a future patch...
The changes to Orb are interesting. That will definitely make Oppressor more distinctly the "control" tree and remove some of the control potential of Thaumaturge's.
I don't see the changes to Storm Spell being all that significant. If anything it will just make Spellstorm CW's have even stronger up-front burst and decreased damage afterward. The overall damage won't change too much. My crit rate through a dungeon run is 50-60% (I'll assume 55%). So if the proc rate on crits is increased 50% and the proc rate of crits on all other hits is reduced by 100%, then the net effect will be a Storm Spell proc rate of (.55*1.5) = 82.5% of what it is currently. It's a decrease, but not a huge one. Also, if things are dying faster up front (and they will with EoTs leading off a fight and a 30% Storm Spell proc rate), then there will be less non-critical hit spells needed after that initial burst. Just running to the next mob which will allow EotS to re-set.
DPS during a dungeon run may even go up, though sustained DPS will drop.
I don't know of anyone using it there either. The clowns in the feedback forum think a choice is being forced in pve between dps and control and that's not whats happening at all in pve or for that matter in pvp
I use Orb of Imposition in Epic Shores of Tuern, along with Entangle, because the mobs there hit pretty hard and I can open up an encounter by entangling one of the more dangerous mobs so that they don't one-shot me or someone else in the party.
I also use Orb of Imposition in Epic Dread Vault, to entangle Thoon Hulks during the final boss fight.
I haven't tried it out, but I imagine Orb of Imposition might also be useful if attempting to solo a Major HE in IWD, along with the prone of Shard.
I use Orb of Imposition in Epic Shores of Tuern, along with Entangle, because the mobs there hit pretty hard and I can open up an encounter by entangling one of the more dangerous mobs so that they don't one-shot me or someone else in the party.
I also use Orb of Imposition in Epic Dread Vault, to entangle Thoon Hulks during the final boss fight.
I haven't tried it out, but I imagine Orb of Imposition might also be useful if attempting to solo a Major HE in IWD, along with the prone of Shard.
But those are about the only times that I use it.
When I was testing Mod 4 changes on the preview server I would do Major HE's in Icewind Dale. It was tough but do-able with my normal rotation of pure DPS. Although I would typically die a time or two if I mis-timed a dodge. I tried out Orb of Imposition and those HE's went smooth as butter. They were slower, but I was able to follow long freezes with the stun from Steal Time, then I could re-freeze everything before they had time to recover. It felt like a more tactical way to play than the standard nuke-fest that goes on now. Orb of Imposition can be pretty slick when used properly.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
Yeah obviously not much will change pve wise, bigger alpha strikes is all.
Are people using orb of imposition in dungeons at all?
If you have no control pets and you are the only CW in the team and you are doing an add heavy dungeon (like CN), then it's an option to slot if you struggle. I would use combustive action first though for more opressives, because when you give up crit conflag or swath you are giving up a large amount of DPS.
chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited October 2014
Right, points and abbadon have good suggestions as well.
The reason I reccomend control pets (40% control bonus) and DPS features is that the DPS features are much much better than best DPS pets (even wild hunt).
I have been using mage and wisp forever. It's a lot like having orb on without giving up the slot. Since i like to solo, solo HE in IWD, run short man, or run as the only CW, it's incredibly helpful and highly recommended. Does require some substantial AD, but so does everything.
Comments
No, actually. That's not my point at all. My point is that you don't have a clue what you're doing when you're playing as a MoF. My point is that it is possible to have an extremely good MoF build.
I have a prayer-bot GWF who is level 60. If I grabbed him, equipped some feats and some epic armor, and ran some ACT parses on his outgoing damage on test dummies then slapped it in the GWF boards decrying how awful GWF's were, I would be rightfully derided and told I was clueless at how to play their class well. My testing would be worthless because I don't know what I'm doing! When it comes to MoF builds...neither do you. Yet even with a very, very poor MoF build you are putting out equal damage to your Spellstorm build...and you weren't even aware of it because you were looking at the wrong data column.
My point is that no one should take your assessment of MoF CW class seriously because you don't know what you're talking about.
The mechanics of how paingiver is calculated and how smolder is calculated gives spellstorm the appearance of overperformance in dungeons. That's because a MOF will buff the SS and give some of their DPS to the SS. Paingiver is not respective of performance.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Hence: I say threads like this are complete nonsense and nothing but useless rhetoric. I am replying only to make a point, more or less, that my opinion (as all comments are) is that the OP's arguments are all bunk.
I have two level 60 Wizards - one is a SpellStorm, the other is MoF and I love playing them both. I play MoF for ME, not you. If I'm is a party I will use my skills, encounters, dailies, etc. as I am able to help benefit the entire team, sure - but just because it doesn't affect your personal stats in any way is a personal problem for you. (Again - general "you"). If your complaint is in how the player is *playing* then the OP sure wasted a lot of time writing and readers' time reading.
I find it amazing when people playing one race/class/paragon path complain about a different race/class/paragon path. It's absolutely ridiculous in a genuinely funny sort of way.
Don't get me wrong - I understand the passion, and most of the comments in this thread are good ones making valid points. It's just the overall subject matter that I find to be the problem: So, at the OP: MoF is worse at everything because you aren't using it and yet others using it does't benefit YOU directly? Are you reading what you're writing? I'm asking because this is the take-away I'm getting off your OP.
As was said by Chemboy: it's a matter of play-style and what we as individuals enjoy. I refuse to let your angst interfere with my fun.
TL;DR: This thread is an exercise in frivolous debate: Both paragons are good and equally so when based on the enjoyment of the person actually playing them. If someone else's play-style or set-up does not benefit YOU directly there is no plausible reason to bash on their chosen play-style or set-up, except that you believe you are more important than they are. You are the selfish SOB in the end. (That would be the "Shortness Of Breath for the angst within you," in case anyone mistakes that acronym).
so basicly you're trying to prove that MoF is so tremendous but somehow we aren't able to figure out in which way exactly cause we can't measure it.
not a paingiver chart. ok, can agree here. what else? how smooth run was? well right now i can carry any group in eSoT including soloing last boss. all other party can walk in a relax mode. without MoF, DC or any other buffers (btw i prefer debuff cleric in a party over any other class including GF tho i'm squishy as hell but i adapted to hard hitters). not a measure as well? tell me the way then. dummy test and comparing how much dps? in what exactly way MoF is 'overperfoming' SS?
Well for starters see the thread I started entitled "CW Testing". That gives some data.
But I think the real point here is that when Master of Flame first emerged back in Mod2, a lot of CWs tested it out initially and concluded that it was garbage. But subsequent testing by people like chemboy and abaddon have concluded that MoFs are not in fact garbage, but CAN perform quite well.
Look mate I played the MoF build since it came out until the advent of Module 4. (And I've played every different flavor of MoF on live since Module 4, as well.) It's not like I'm just waltzing onto the CW forums and claiming MoF is worse out of thin air. It's because, in both dungeon runs and parsing, it under performs Spellstorm in every metric I've tested. Module 4 has broken MoF since it turned Spellstorm into a better version of the same thing. Not sure how anyone could deny this with Storm Spell being Smolder 2.0 and Sudden Storm being better than FtF in every way.
People like to say that MoF can do well, I agree with them. That was never the point. The point is that Spellstorm does more of everything than a MoF can hope to do. I am not trying to troll people here so I'm going to triple check my posts from here on out for tone.
I want MoF to do something again. Maybe the only way to get people to pay attention is to point out how much it's underperforming, because right now it's in a terrible place compared to Spellstorm. I tend to agree with Chem that Chilling Control is one of the primary causes for what's gone wrong but both being different flavors of DoT is also an issue to me. On top of that the Shard nerf, combined with everything else, is hurting the MoF way more than it's hurting the Spellstorm.
So, you concede that even though I'm a jerk and ignorant my general assessment of MoF is essentially correct in that it underperforms MoF in every way. Your lack of any value-added argument towards the central premise of this thread speaks far louder than your actual commentary.
I was absolutely looking at the wrong column. It doesn't change the fact that these parses are already fundamentally leaned in favor of the MoF for a variety of reasons that I've already talked about. As I've already admitted they come close until you consider I was hobbling my Spellstorms damage and going all-out on the MoF. I can only imagine you don't want to put them side-by-side because you already know my results are true so you need to distract from the central point of the thread and argue minutiae.
Oh...well I wonder why that might be. Weren't you just telling me not to talk about things I don't play?
I don't agree with that at all. And it is baffling that you could have read what I wrote and reached the conclusion that I do agree with you. Aren't you the one chiding others about reading comprehension?
The trouble is you were not interested in value-added arguments. Many people attempted to defend the MoF group utility and damage output. You did not listen to them. Instead you demanded that they "man up" and post parses to prove their point. Well I did just that. I "manned up" and showed that a MoF build can blow your Spellstorm build out of the water. Now that someone accepted your challenge you're crying foul that I'm not adding value to the conversation just by posting parses.
So we've established that you had no idea how to parse data in ACT up until right now. Yet you are still going to proclaim foolish things like:
Why should we trust your testing capabilities at all when we've established you don't know what you're doing when you're parsing data? I parse data all the time and equally geared, equally skilled MoF CW's have no trouble keeping up with Spellstorm CW's in damage output. If you credit the groups Rimefire Smoulder damage to the MoF CW only then they would come out ahead in most situations. But Neverwinter credits smoulder damage to anyone who hits the enemy and refreshes the smoulder, which is kinda silly.
The problem is you don't know how to play MoF well at all so even when you are going "all-out" on a MoF build your damage is badly, badly crippled compared to what it could be.
Sigh. Again with the arrogance and presumptuousness. You don't know what my DPS is as a Spellstorm. You don't know know my rotations are. You don't know how I prefer to play. Tell you what, here's another parse. For this one I unequipped everything on the right side of my character sheet (all rings, neck items, clothing, and belt) as well as my offhand talisman. I made all of my companions except my Ioun Stone idle. I equipped a set of High Vizier equipment and a Orb of the Dread Ring with a Perfect Vorpal. My gear score was 11.9k. I had 6381 power and 944 critical strike. Here's my damage output with a MoF build:
Hmmm...still doing 27,467 DPS on three test dummies. That's 40% more damage than you are doing on your spellstorm. Can't blame that on a gear difference. The problem is not the Master of Flame paragon path. The problem is you and your inability to play it well.
I was telling you and others that you don't understand how to play Master of Flame well and, as such, your analysis of it compared to the Spell Storm path should not be taken seriously. While I play as a Spell Storm I actually do know how to play the Master of the Flame path well. Certainly well enough to tell that you do not.
*Edit*
I got curious so I did the following: I unequipped everything except for High Vizier Armor and an Orb of the Dread Legion. No pets, no artifacts, no enchantments of any kind, no rings, no belt, no offhand, no necklace, no clothes, no boons. My gear score is 7,594. I have 3070 power and 0 Critical strike. Here's a parse of me beating up on three dummies as a MoF:
I was able to do sustained 18,537 DPS for a little over 4 minutes.
Ok then.
I assume when someone fails to address the core argument and instead chooses to concentrate on personal attacks that they must agree with the core premise and are merely trying to deflect the conversation towards a different subject.
Otherwise, a person such as yourself would certainly shut me down with a simple side-by-side comparison on their MoF vs. Spellstorm builds that would show a roughly equal performance in both controlling effects, damage, and debuff.
Since you have not done that yet you went through the effort of parsing, editing, and posting a few snips of virtually useless data I can only conclude that your entire point of posting is character assassination and egotism instead of education. Your attempt at not rewarding my ignorance with knowledge is the most entertaining thing I've read this week. Heck, I might have a new forum signature!
^_^
You don't know what character assassination is. Character assassination is when someone lies about or brings up facts irrelevant to the debate to try and call into question the moral character of their debate opponent. If you were making your statements about the inferiority of MoF CW's and I tried to argue with you by stating that no one should believe you because you cheat at cards and steal from the church collection plate, then I would be engaging in character assassination. However, pointing out woeful deficiencies in competence in your ability to parse data and play MoF CW effectively I am not engaging in character assassination, I'm revealing to your audience your lack of credentials to be considered an authority on the matter. It would be no different than if someone who had failed high school physics and had no further education on the topic was attempting to be a keynote speaker at a Quantum Physics conference and someone objected on the grounds that they don't know anything on the topic. That's not character assassination; it's germane objection to their ability to speak correctly on the subject.
You can make a game of this if you like and try to provoke further reaction or make silly assumptions about what I'm not saying. That's fine. I'm not interested in this for the sport of trading verbal jabs on a message board. My goal is to inform people who are new to the game or who are curious about the MoF paragon path that the opening premise of this thread is utter garbage. All of the evidence presented is anecdotal or depends on bad assumptions about gear and spell rotations MoF CW's use. You've misinterpreted your inability to play the MoF class well with a deficiency in the mechanics of the MoF class.
If anyone would like to learn how to play the MoF class well I'd point them to Kaelac's Master of Flame handbook:
http://laggygamerz.com/forum/index.php?/topic/392-master-of-flame-a-cws-handbook/
and Chem's Comprehensive MoF guide:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?768881-Chem-s-Comprehensive-MoF-guide-%28PvE-Mod4%29
Both of which are far, far better resources for understanding MoF CW's than anything in this thread.
Well, my rough math means that say a MOF is running swath or desturction, this means if i'm in a team with a spellstorm, that SS CW's DPS will increase about 20%, but my personal DPS will decrease 5%, so while it looks like the SS is beating me by 25%, i am actually responsible for a large increase in THEIR DPS (and btw 15% to everyone else).
How smooth the run is is a good measure. Speed is important, but i would rather have a very smooth run than a very fast one.
The flaw is that just looking at paingiver, or only our INDIVIDUAL ACT's does not give the full picture of the interaction.
This is why MOF "looks" worse but is not actually worse. It just appears so at first glance.
But you know, yes i do want to do good damage, but my SS teammates beats me on DPS, but if we can 2 man and blaze through CN like an atomic knife through butter, why should i care about paingiver?
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Both of you have some good ideas, some of them have flaws too, but i don't feel like arguing, instead I imagined something.
Let's imagine there are 3 developers sitting around the conference room at Cryptic, named Will, Matt, and Jim.
Will: Ok everyone, it's obvious that through mod 3, CWs are very powerful. They always win paingiver, they can control better than other classes, and because content is full of controlable mobs, people are running groups with 3 or 4 CWs, and not taking other classes.
Bill: Ok, so, say i came into the game in beta, and I rolled a TR, which i loved playing for months. Now i'm geared and I want to farm CN. I have say, a greater vorpal, a stone, and 14k GS, so I'm sitting pretty right? I can just go PUG and have fun, get loot?
Matt: Actually no, remember that time in Mod 0 when 13 year old kids with their parents credit cards whined on facebook about how TR is so OP in PvP, and we nerfed TR's DPS into the ground?
Will: Yeah, I remember that. Apparently, even though lashing blade and impact shot have very loud, very obvious sounds that create a large dodge window, players are unable to find the shift key in time. Therefore we nerfed TR into the ground.
Jim: Well how bad is it?
Matt: a 16k CW and a 16k TR go into the dungeon. Both are great players. The CW out DPSes the TR 4:1 and never dies. The TR dies when a single mob looks at him, has no AOE, and almost no control.
Jim: Great scott!
Will: The point is, most players have shelfed their beloved TRs, GFs, DCs, HRs, and now roll CWs.
Jim: But surely the gear is an issue. A new CW might be 12k and an old TR might be 17k, surely that TR does better than the CW.
Matt: Actually, no. A 12k CW is better than a 17k TR in basically every way.
Will: As sad as that is, we are going to forget about it until Mod 5. By now all the TR players have quit except for some hardcore PvPer. They do this Permastealth build with bilethorn. That way a burst DPS melee class can do basically no damage from range, run around and hide in the shadows like cowards. But hey, it works.
Jim: Ok ok, so back to this CW problem. We obviously need to design content where there are less controllable adds, more space between pulls, the mobs hit hard. That way people will want to run with GF, DC, and TR again.
Matt: Actually, I have something to say on that. I've worked with the Dev team on this project. It's called Tyranny of Dailies internally, but we call it Tyranny of Dragons to the world. It has a skirmish and a dungeon where most CWs will get one shot, most of the adds can't be controlled well, and the mobs are spread out as to make AOE powers less useful.
Jim: Matt, that sounds great!
Matt: Now get this, you also have to kill dragons to advance and get boons. The last two boons either require these super rare items or a ton of campaign currency.
Will: So what do they do.
Matt: Well, for example I have a GF with 1500 regen. If get these last two boons I can get 200 more regen and 3% more lifesteal. This means that for the low price of four million astral diamonds OR 40 days of griding dailies, I can increase my incoming healing 2% overall! Doesn't that sound great?
Jim: Oh yeah bro, sign me up for that!
Matt: Now, get this the dragons are on 20 minute timers. People don't like to wait, so they all can kill these things in about 90 seconds. Then people have to spend however long, say, 10 of 15 minutes for them to respawn. This means that everyone will spend an hour every day just standing around.
Will: Go on,
Matt: Then, we make limited resources for players to fight over, so they all run around like headless chickens on their mounts. This will annoying them massively if they have slow mounts because players with fast mounts will ninja their quest items. Hence, during the hour a day they spend standing around the zone with nothing to do, they will browse the zen store, get their parent's credit card, and drop 25-40$ on a mount. Isn't that great?
Jim: And while they were there, they might also buy enchanted keys, where you have a 99.5% chance of getting something useless, a .4% chance of getting something cool looking, and a .1% chance of getting something you actually want!
Matt: Exactly. Think how many impulse buys this will create!
Will: Great work Matt. I'm sure marketing will be pleased. They told me they are getting tired of sniffing wipeboard markers over there.
Matt: Oh yeah, I'll send the marketing department gift baskets from Harry and David. You know they love overpriced condiments from places you never heard of.
Jim: Ok though, back to CW. The problem is that in the Thaum tree, elemental empowerment and assailing force allow debuff stacking to the sky, meaning that a 15k party can melt draco in 90 seconds. Taking anyone other than a CW or a DC in High Prophet lowers team DPS so much that other classes are irreverent and can't get groups.
Matt: Wait, are you saying the best DC set is a T1 set with bugged boots that always drop bound?
Will: That's besides the point, no one cares about DCs. Our studies show DC players spend less cash that other players. What about GWFs, don't they have deep gash and student of the sword and survive really well.
Matt: Remember, we nerfed that to nothing because of people whining in PvP.
Will: Oh yeah, so go on.
Jim: Well, apparently everyone thinks that Spellstorm, Vorpal, and Thaumaturge is the way to go, so 95% of CWs run identical Specs, and use the High Vizier set. Doing anything else involves the team calling you "****" and "useless" and you get vote-kicked because "UR DPS is no good, if you use vorpal our run would be 30 seconds faster, GTFO."
Matt: Wait, did we do extensive testing and showed that stacking Terror and Plaguefire really increase team DPS and make the run more efficient.
Jim: Yes, we did. Apparently good players know this too, but they don't use them.
Matt: Why not? it's obviously better.
Will: We just got a post from twitter about this, it says "n0 1 wants 2 b the ****** holding the GPF."
Matt: So wait, you are telling me that people actually make themselves play worse, make their team play worse, increase the chance that the run will fail, drop their defensive stats, all so that they can win paingiver?
Jim: Exactly. Apparently being a good teammate means nothing to people at all. They all just want to have the biggest ****.
Matt: Wow, who are these guys anyway?
Will: Well, most of them are hardcore gamers that can't get girls anyway, so they compensate for their feelings of inadequacy and emasculation in the real world by winning paingiver.
Matt: Gosh, that makes me want to take a bottle of vallium and forget the world is like this.
Jim: Anyway, some smart people figured it out. They found that including a MOF CW and running plaguefire and terror makes the run super efficient. Did you see Chem, Nano, and Orianna 3 man CN? No wipes, no downs, no potions. That's obviously the best way to play.
Will: But see, even though the stormspell vorpal player was the only one to die and struggle, he still won paingiver. That is what is most important to these people.
Matt: My god, the little things humans fight over. I thought this was supposed to be a team game.
Will: Apparently not.
Jim: Anyway, thaum is obviously the best path, and stormspell is the most popular paragon. But look, here is a post from a 16 year old in Cambridge Mass. We got it on facebook. "U must nerf Rene CW. Feats too good, crit too hard. I die easy in PvP. 9k GS in blues, and this CW just two shots me. WTF, Renegade OP!" I checked out his profile. Next page shows him playing in a Yu-gi-oh tournamnet.
Will: Isn't that that silly, expensive, money sink where kids spends tons of their parents money on cards so they can like, i don't know, summon flower dragons or something?
Matt: Yeah, they have a great business over there. We obviously need to capture that revenue.
Jim: Ok, now there is another post here from a 13 year old in Mt. Caramel, CA. He just used his parent's credit card to by the hero of the north pack.
Will: Oh man, i can see those hotties on the beach on my next vacation now.
Jim: he says "Oppressor CW OP in PvP. Mof OP in PvP. I get choke, i got burn, can't stealth. F this game."
Matt: So wait, you are saying a paying "customer" with money to burn is telling us to F off?
Jim: Yeah, apparently he is now playing Pokemon on his Nintendo DS.
Matt: Gosh! think of the lost revenue. How am I going to buy my next BMW now?
Will: Ok, so we obviously need to fix this. Sure, stormspell and thaumaturge is popular right now, and I know we publicly say we want class balance, but what we really want is for people to spend money.
Matt: Well, how else are you going to pick up Caribbean babes in your Hawaiian shirt that covers up your beer belly?
Will: Exactly. So let's make Stormspell even better in PvE. Meanwhile let's nerf oppressor and renegade to satisfy those PvP whiners.
Jim: What about MOF?
Will: Ok, we'll nerf the only good fire spell they have. That way bad TRs who whine and complain about everything will spend money trying to get giant beetles instead of spending money on pokemon.
Matt: Ok, so wait, we are just going to screw balance so that we can line our pockets with easy money?
Will: Yes exactly. Smart players will still know that debuffs and MOF are the way to go, but smart players don't spend money. Good players also don't spend money. We want to make the bad, dumb players happy.
Jim: Woohoo! sounds like a great idea.
Matt: How about we go to San Jose and go to the shooting stars casino? I feel like playing roulette right now. Our chances of doing well there are so much better than they are at work.
Will: Great, let's meet for overpriced burgers and cheap, bad tasting beer first.
Jim: Great!
Anyway, this is what the CW "balance" meeting must have looked like. Hope you all find it amusing.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Ah, my mistake then!
So uhh...still not going to post any parse comparisons though huh? I guess since you've settled into insulting me there isn't anywhere else to go in our little discussion unless you decide to show yours. After all, you've seen mine right? I feel teased good sir! ^_-
@Chem - Thanks for the laugh!
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
The big change is in stormspell. what's the current chance? 10%? that might be a buff :S
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Current Chance is 20%. I think this will be a substantial reduction since it will only check the 30% on Crits (this is speculation). Will make EotS even more important.
The changes to Orb are interesting. That will definitely make Oppressor more distinctly the "control" tree and remove some of the control potential of Thaumaturge's.
I don't see the changes to Storm Spell being all that significant. If anything it will just make Spellstorm CW's have even stronger up-front burst and decreased damage afterward. The overall damage won't change too much. My crit rate through a dungeon run is 50-60% (I'll assume 55%). So if the proc rate on crits is increased 50% and the proc rate of crits on all other hits is reduced by 100%, then the net effect will be a Storm Spell proc rate of (.55*1.5) = 82.5% of what it is currently. It's a decrease, but not a huge one. Also, if things are dying faster up front (and they will with EoTs leading off a fight and a 30% Storm Spell proc rate), then there will be less non-critical hit spells needed after that initial burst. Just running to the next mob which will allow EotS to re-set.
DPS during a dungeon run may even go up, though sustained DPS will drop.
Are people using orb of imposition in dungeons at all?
Stuff melts, no point.
I'd started to put overflow points into it, just to have the option if it was needed.
(CW isn't far enough into ToD to access new content.)
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
I also use Orb of Imposition in Epic Dread Vault, to entangle Thoon Hulks during the final boss fight.
I haven't tried it out, but I imagine Orb of Imposition might also be useful if attempting to solo a Major HE in IWD, along with the prone of Shard.
But those are about the only times that I use it.
When I was testing Mod 4 changes on the preview server I would do Major HE's in Icewind Dale. It was tough but do-able with my normal rotation of pure DPS. Although I would typically die a time or two if I mis-timed a dodge. I tried out Orb of Imposition and those HE's went smooth as butter. They were slower, but I was able to follow long freezes with the stun from Steal Time, then I could re-freeze everything before they had time to recover. It felt like a more tactical way to play than the standard nuke-fest that goes on now. Orb of Imposition can be pretty slick when used properly.
If you have no control pets and you are the only CW in the team and you are doing an add heavy dungeon (like CN), then it's an option to slot if you struggle. I would use combustive action first though for more opressives, because when you give up crit conflag or swath you are giving up a large amount of DPS.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
The reason I reccomend control pets (40% control bonus) and DPS features is that the DPS features are much much better than best DPS pets (even wild hunt).
I have been using mage and wisp forever. It's a lot like having orb on without giving up the slot. Since i like to solo, solo HE in IWD, run short man, or run as the only CW, it's incredibly helpful and highly recommended. Does require some substantial AD, but so does everything.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know