me too ... but ignoring the possible changes that occur (rogue has "aoe" too ...) I interpret the description this way:
gwf is strong. this is the primary condition. And be strong, THEREFORE is tough. this here is what is in common in the class, so can not be a variant.
variant needs to be the ability to use a sword.
I will illustrate what I think with a legitimate gwf in action. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX_iqOaQQGY
Definitely a strong figure, and be strong, it is sturdy enough to be able to take attacks that would have "killed their party." Thus, a class is to be on the front line, but not as a human shield.
lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
edited September 2014
The new skirmish is showing us that we are the kings of single target dps, any other class with the same gear is unable to beat us. I.e I did run several times with a 22k+ GS PvE CW and I outdps him for at least 4m+ every run. Our damage is good, whoever says that GWF's dps sucks, should post a pic of his GS/stats/gear.
The new skirmish is showing us that we are the kings of single target dps, any other class with the same gear is unable to beat us. I.e I did run several times with a 22k+ GS PvE CW and I outdps him for at least 4m+ every run. Our damage is good, whoever says that GWF's dps sucks, should post a pic of his GS/stats/gear.
single target damage is tr not gwf job, and our aoe dps is lacking, also we need to see hr/sw dmg, cw shouldnt be dps class and we shouldnt compare our dmg to dmg of a cc class
about builds - yea gwf lacks mod4 guides so many ppl might have ruined builds, im stuck with one myself cause i cant by respec, but in smth like cn 20k gwfs arent much ahead of 16k cw's
single target damage is tr not gwf job, and our aoe dps is lacking, also we need to see hr/sw dmg, cw shouldnt be dps class and we shouldnt compare our dmg to dmg of a cc class
about builds - yea gwf lacks mod4 guides so many ppl might have ruined builds, im stuck with one myself cause i cant by respec, but in smth like cn 20k gwfs arent much ahead of 16k cw's
Our AoE dps is good, you should parse a CN run with a good CW and you will see what's wrong with their DPS . TR is for burst dmg not sustained dmg like the GWF does. And yes, we should compare our dmg to a CC class NOW because that's how the devs wanted that class to be, good CC + high dmg until they fix them, after a couple of tweaks on them, we will have similar DPS.
just for the record ... you understand what I'm asking for different "dps gameplay" with restrictions due in exchange for two restricted trees, and not by a super buff in the current gwf, right?
Honestly this would be a MASSIVE change in how the GWF played but my personal opinion is that GWFs at wills need to hit like trucks, along with their encounters however it being much harder to land those attacks. Basically if you get in melee range of the GWF for too long your done.
What I think would lend itself to this play style is something LIKE these changes:
STR: Gives +2% dmg (up from 1%)
Feats: Added a feat that adds a "slow" effect to enemies by 1/2/3/4/5% stacks 5 times on targets (for 25% slower movement).
Beef up things like: Not so Fast - increased damage AND slow so its MUCH more reliable and usefull to SLOW a target to keep them in range.
Unstoppable: No longer gives a damage penalty to at will damage - effectively a massive damage boost to at wills.
Basically you can remove most of the "stuns/prones" for the GWF class as IMO thats not the roll of the class in exchange for big "slows" that help keep targets in range of attacks AND big damage boosts to the class as a whole. Destroyer damage feels inline with the GWF class, so maybe even it out to give more damage to Insta/Sents and less to destoryers.
Just examples. This removes the QQ about GWFs being too "controling" but gives GWFs the ability to get in range and keeps targets in range and deal DEADLY damage. It should be VERY unforgiving to get caught by a GWF. PERIOD.
So that massive 2h sword that at wills for 500 damage?! Needs to be beefed up to like 1500+! getting in range of a GWF should be a big tradeoff for classes that are not meant to either block the damage (GF) or have the dexterity to dodge/parry the damage (TR/HR)
THATS the direction I want to see, a GWF being a MIGHTY damage dealer that is unforigivng if you make a mistake and get caught in his melee, a fighter who can catch targets and keep them close - using encounters and feats, rather than dealing ZIP damage with at wills and relying on encounters to deal damage AND control. Its all backwards IMO.
Almost how the GFs at wills got MASSIVELY boosted mod 4, to where most GFs rely heavily on at will damage for their damage. The GWF "encounters" should almost ALL have "utility" aspects to them and much less "damage dealers" - except a handful like IBS, but the GWF should be using encounters to keep a target in range, while relying on at wills to deal MASSIVE amounts of damage.
TR is for burst dmg not sustained dmg like the GWF does. And yes, we should compare our dmg to a CC class NOW because that's how the devs wanted that class to be, good CC + high dmg until they fix them, after a couple of tweaks on them, we will have similar DPS.
tr will get rework and, hopefully, will be useful for smth
if we compare our damage to cc, support class we may as well compare it to DC dmg and be happy, Fury SW, HR and GWF should be kings of aoe dps since dps is the only thing were good at(in pve), we cant tank(we can take hits but getting aggro is the hard part), we cant really cc, we dont heal others, our party buffs are s#!t
Honestly this would be a MASSIVE change in how the GWF played but my personal opinion is that GWFs at wills need to hit like trucks, along with their encounters however it being much harder to land those attacks. Basically if you get in melee range of the GWF for too long your done.
What I think would lend itself to this play style is something LIKE these changes:
STR: Gives +2% dmg (up from 1%)
Feats: Added a feat that adds a "slow" effect to enemies by 1/2/3/4/5% stacks 5 times on targets (for 25% slower movement).
Beef up things like: Not so Fast - increased damage AND slow so its MUCH more reliable and usefull to SLOW a target to keep them in range.
Would be nice to get 2% STR instead of 1%, we're GWF.
And I'd like to make Reaping Strike a little Charge, to recompensate the casting time (with the huge slow).
But first, there are huge problems since m3 with the crits. And having high DR with like GF/GWF doesn't reduce damages taken correctly.
And after the DR correction, and the GWF rework, replace the DR from Unstoppable (let it only for Sentinel) for a high amount of Lifesteal, would be something interesting.
But the GWF actually needs a very high amount of changes, more than the other classes, on almost ALL the Powers, on all Instigator Tree, and some things for Destroyer/Sentinel.
The most problem of Slam actually, it doesn't crit.
There are too many things to say for GWF ...
What I would say of him : he's an accumulation of many many weak things.
The part about slam was to show that is the affect a GWF should be having passively and with encounters, not just on a daily.
That it slows and adds alot of utility both to the GWF and his team as well.
the GWF should FEEL like he is weilding a FREAKING 2h Sword! That hits and deals MASSIVE damage to foes.
Encounters should be ALL about utility/slows/drawing in enemies not necessarily dealing damage.
Like I said, they should re-focus alot of encounter abilities and tone them down alot to deal much less damage - again maybe with the exception of IBS.
Then boost up at will damage by 200%-300% BUT! The animation for Sure Strike should be slowed WAY down and maybe each subsequent attack gets a nice damage boost. What you would then need is to get rid of the destroyer feat that boosts at will damage even more based on HP missing (keep it for IBS).
All of this makes you FEEL like your swinging a MIGHTY weapon and then encounters are used for utility. Then you can remove the damage reduction from unstoppable - making at wills deal even MORE damage (again the primary damage source) for GWFs.
Its just flat SILLY that a Guardian Fighter with a 1H sword can HIT targets for 1500+ with Crushing surge while a GWF hits for MUCH MUCH less (half the damage) Then when he goes Unstoppable, instead of it being a damage BOOST to at wills - due to attack speed, it ends up being wash because his damage is nerfed?
I like current gwf more than the mod 2/mod3 ones. Need to get used to it but i like it. Ayroux idea is good too but idk if powerful at-wills would cause problems. I mean, no cooldown and all. In a brawl you would rip everything apart in seconds with a ibs-level at-will. Would need good balance.
Almost forgot. Testing sentinel build to guess what is the immortal build i read about. Daring shout does not seem to help. So went for battle fury-fls-ibs on senti build with focus on sprint. P. Bi. Gear and need still to grab the pvp rings set. 21 triple kills to have 10/10 achievements. That and monster hps would help but only at 37k so far. Can' t quite guess the weapon enchant. Perhaps feytouched. Idk.
So far, can tank a lot, very mobile, very survivable. Damage mediocre need to reroll and raise ARP.
Destro sprinter could be less survivable/effective against strong opponents, but somehow may be more fun to play. Trying to be a hibrid sort of senti sprinter.
In pve...let's say with daring shout, come and get it both feated, and ibs, you tank a lot.
I like current gwf more than the mod 2/mod3 ones. Need to get used to it but i like it. Ayroux idea is good too but idk if powerful at-wills would cause problems. I mean, no cooldown and all. In a brawl you would rip everything apart in seconds with a ibs-level at-will. Would need good balance.
Yeah Im not saying the idea is perfect, its more something that would give GWF a real "flavor" thats unique.
I think the GWF should be the best brawler and rip things to shreds. A GWF should be a class that you think twice about approaching in melee range.
Maybe not FULL IBS levels for at will attacks, but I definitely think sure strike should be hitting for 1500+
The idea I had was each attack of sure strike AND Wicked Strike gained a 10% damage boost on EACH attack.
So Sure Strike:
1500
1650
1815
1996
I think the "at wills" would NEED to be slowed down about 25% to 33% to make this more viable.
Fully charged Reaping Strike should hit for ALOT too.
My "Qualm" with the GWF is he has the BIGGEST weapon and the HIGHEST top end, but the lowest at will. When I play my GWF I feel like I am swinging a wet noodle around and the ONLY way you can do good damage (appropriate damage id say)
is through Destroyer Capstone+class feautres+Mark+Powerful Challenge + IBS combo.
So likely what would need to happen is other areas toned back, such as mark/powerful challenge/Destroyer Capstone ETC
Id like to see STR = 2% dmg boost (about 10-15% more damage for all GWFs) Then mark back to 8% for GWFs, keeping the same mark mechanics as we have now, then powerful challenge dropped to 15% more THREAT to marked targets.
This gives ALOT of damage room for beefing up at wills and having those play a major role in damage.
Then you can drop damage FURTHER (yes further) on encounter powers, but give alot more "control" functions via SLOWs/Daze rather than stun/Prones.
So this would look like:
Not so Fast: Increasing the area of effect AND the slow % by a large margin
Mighty Leap: Increasing also the area of effect and adding a slow OR even a short 1 second stun would be cool.
Takedown: This now "Dazes" a target for 2 seconds. (Or decrease damage and beef this to 3 seconds)
Roar: 1 second Daze.
Daring Shout: Marks + Adds a "slow" to all nearby enemies affected.
Come and Get it: Increased range by 200% AND pulls enemies literally ontop of the GWF.
Punishing Charge: Removes charges, increased range - much like "Lunge Strike for GFs but less distance, adds a 1 second Daze
Battle Fury: Make this act much like Into the Fray for GFs but maybe toned back a bit.... 25% increased damage lasts 8 seconds roughly 12 second CD.
So encounters become much less about damage, but more about utility. Most of these powers are useful again and the GWF gains most of his damage through at wills.
Can add a feat somewhere (maybe replace deep gash) where each swing lessens target movement by 5% stacks 5 times.
Now you have a GWF who is a fearful opponent, who can pull you in range, slow you in range, is very speedy (sprint) and hits like a truck with his at wills.
0
nezraalMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2014
I actually enjoy using a lot of sure strike. One thing I notice is, if you dash behind the enemy they take some time to position themselves and before they do it almost lands an extra sure strike. So with all due respect to ayroux (for being a fantastic GWF) - I think the speed for sure strike is needed. However the landing should be a bit heavier , around 10% or so.
If I see a GF on black ice I don't even bother to engage.
If I see a TR, I give him a chase and he is wasting too much time - I move on.
I brawl on 3v3, I stay on side line and harass on 3+ more opponent players.
If I see a mob I try to go to the back line and harass the CW > HR > SW in that order.
And reality is there will be mob fights more than 50% of the time, and will have opportunity to land more sure strike(s).
I tried using pando's perma runner, and I failed miserably (it requires a strong chase, super fast decisions to be able to land the correct attack and chase down any opponent). Very good if you can do it, I had a very hard time adjusting to this build and it's not for me. My page rank flopped from 19 to 103 trying perma runner. I reversed back to my old technique and clawed back to around 30s now (I think).
I divide my combos to two parts and keep my rotations simple and try to be more aware of my surroundings,
Ideally, TR > TD > IBS > FLS > Shift Dash behind enemy > 2 Sure Strike(s) - 3 if your opponent is slow (70% of the time, this is the case) and mix the rest with unstoppable, doochikey and dailies. I feel there are some gap in my attacks, but I don't want to compromise damage on sure strike and go for cd on takedown / battlefury.
I would also be happy if a prone on takedown would be back. I also feel the stamina should be up by another 20% regeneration. I would feel GWF actions to be smooth(er) and I would be happy. I am a newbie, currently on with bracer + helmet on b.ice and carrying ancient castle and all level 7 runes (currently 15k GS). I believe following this technique will help to get on first 10 page(s) on better gear.
Changes I would like to see:
1. Take down with longer stun duration, or prone.
2. FLS with around 15% more damage.
3. Stamina Regeneration up by another 20%
4. Str adding to armor Penetration in addition to CON. I would happily abandon DEX and go for a STR,CON build instead of CON, DEX.
I think the issue would be that if you increase the damage ALOT for SS, keeping its speed would possibly make it far too strong.
After further consideration, they honestly should take the ability "Crushing Surge" fro GFs, and apply that to GWFs "Sure Strike" ONLY with regards to damage. What this would mean is a GWF with a much higher weapon damage would be able to naturally hit harder than Crushing Surge on GFs and it would hit 4x instead of 3. But with this, thats what I think speed needs a tone down.
What I would then also like to see is NO damage decrease for at wills during unstoppable. So youd get a nice speed/dps increase during unstoppable.
So again its all based around positioning/encounters and using at wills for damage. IBS could still be in play with with enough utility encounters the GWF probably wouldnt even use IBS (IMO).
Comments
Aye this one speaks the truth! Berserk is the way to go
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Im thinking we'll be more than OP if that happens, no amount of cc or damage could keep us down lol
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
the current armor, ok?
single target damage is tr not gwf job, and our aoe dps is lacking, also we need to see hr/sw dmg, cw shouldnt be dps class and we shouldnt compare our dmg to dmg of a cc class
about builds - yea gwf lacks mod4 guides so many ppl might have ruined builds, im stuck with one myself cause i cant by respec, but in smth like cn 20k gwfs arent much ahead of 16k cw's
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Our AoE dps is good, you should parse a CN run with a good CW and you will see what's wrong with their DPS
What I think would lend itself to this play style is something LIKE these changes:
STR: Gives +2% dmg (up from 1%)
Feats: Added a feat that adds a "slow" effect to enemies by 1/2/3/4/5% stacks 5 times on targets (for 25% slower movement).
Beef up things like: Not so Fast - increased damage AND slow so its MUCH more reliable and usefull to SLOW a target to keep them in range.
Unstoppable: No longer gives a damage penalty to at will damage - effectively a massive damage boost to at wills.
Basically you can remove most of the "stuns/prones" for the GWF class as IMO thats not the roll of the class in exchange for big "slows" that help keep targets in range of attacks AND big damage boosts to the class as a whole. Destroyer damage feels inline with the GWF class, so maybe even it out to give more damage to Insta/Sents and less to destoryers.
Just examples. This removes the QQ about GWFs being too "controling" but gives GWFs the ability to get in range and keeps targets in range and deal DEADLY damage. It should be VERY unforgiving to get caught by a GWF. PERIOD.
So that massive 2h sword that at wills for 500 damage?! Needs to be beefed up to like 1500+! getting in range of a GWF should be a big tradeoff for classes that are not meant to either block the damage (GF) or have the dexterity to dodge/parry the damage (TR/HR)
THATS the direction I want to see, a GWF being a MIGHTY damage dealer that is unforigivng if you make a mistake and get caught in his melee, a fighter who can catch targets and keep them close - using encounters and feats, rather than dealing ZIP damage with at wills and relying on encounters to deal damage AND control. Its all backwards IMO.
Almost how the GFs at wills got MASSIVELY boosted mod 4, to where most GFs rely heavily on at will damage for their damage. The GWF "encounters" should almost ALL have "utility" aspects to them and much less "damage dealers" - except a handful like IBS, but the GWF should be using encounters to keep a target in range, while relying on at wills to deal MASSIVE amounts of damage.
tr will get rework and, hopefully, will be useful for smth
if we compare our damage to cc, support class we may as well compare it to DC dmg and be happy, Fury SW, HR and GWF should be kings of aoe dps since dps is the only thing were good at(in pve), we cant tank(we can take hits but getting aggro is the hard part), we cant really cc, we dont heal others, our party buffs are s#!t
Would be nice to get 2% STR instead of 1%, we're GWF.
And I'd like to make Reaping Strike a little Charge, to recompensate the casting time (with the huge slow).
But first, there are huge problems since m3 with the crits. And having high DR with like GF/GWF doesn't reduce damages taken correctly.
And after the DR correction, and the GWF rework, replace the DR from Unstoppable (let it only for Sentinel) for a high amount of Lifesteal, would be something interesting.
But the GWF actually needs a very high amount of changes, more than the other classes, on almost ALL the Powers, on all Instigator Tree, and some things for Destroyer/Sentinel.
Things like Reaping Strike, should be dealing massive AoE damage.
Come and Get it - should have a HUGE "pull" effect 2x the distance and pull all enemies basically ontop of the GWF.
Slam is an ideal example of how the GWF should feel. When you slam, it slows movement of enemies, making it easier to keep them in range.
THAT is the utility that GWFs need, and then their damage should come from boosts/feats/and IMO - alot from at wills!
The most problem of Slam actually, it doesn't crit.
There are too many things to say for GWF ...
What I would say of him : he's an accumulation of many many weak things.
Can you please post a pic of your gear/stats/companions?
The part about slam was to show that is the affect a GWF should be having passively and with encounters, not just on a daily.
That it slows and adds alot of utility both to the GWF and his team as well.
the GWF should FEEL like he is weilding a FREAKING 2h Sword! That hits and deals MASSIVE damage to foes.
Encounters should be ALL about utility/slows/drawing in enemies not necessarily dealing damage.
Like I said, they should re-focus alot of encounter abilities and tone them down alot to deal much less damage - again maybe with the exception of IBS.
Then boost up at will damage by 200%-300% BUT! The animation for Sure Strike should be slowed WAY down and maybe each subsequent attack gets a nice damage boost. What you would then need is to get rid of the destroyer feat that boosts at will damage even more based on HP missing (keep it for IBS).
All of this makes you FEEL like your swinging a MIGHTY weapon and then encounters are used for utility. Then you can remove the damage reduction from unstoppable - making at wills deal even MORE damage (again the primary damage source) for GWFs.
Its just flat SILLY that a Guardian Fighter with a 1H sword can HIT targets for 1500+ with Crushing surge while a GWF hits for MUCH MUCH less (half the damage) Then when he goes Unstoppable, instead of it being a damage BOOST to at wills - due to attack speed, it ends up being wash because his damage is nerfed?
Makes no sense.....
So far, can tank a lot, very mobile, very survivable. Damage mediocre need to reroll and raise ARP.
Destro sprinter could be less survivable/effective against strong opponents, but somehow may be more fun to play. Trying to be a hibrid sort of senti sprinter.
In pve...let's say with daring shout, come and get it both feated, and ibs, you tank a lot.
Will keep studying the possibilities.
Yeah Im not saying the idea is perfect, its more something that would give GWF a real "flavor" thats unique.
I think the GWF should be the best brawler and rip things to shreds. A GWF should be a class that you think twice about approaching in melee range.
Maybe not FULL IBS levels for at will attacks, but I definitely think sure strike should be hitting for 1500+
The idea I had was each attack of sure strike AND Wicked Strike gained a 10% damage boost on EACH attack.
So Sure Strike:
1500
1650
1815
1996
I think the "at wills" would NEED to be slowed down about 25% to 33% to make this more viable.
Fully charged Reaping Strike should hit for ALOT too.
My "Qualm" with the GWF is he has the BIGGEST weapon and the HIGHEST top end, but the lowest at will. When I play my GWF I feel like I am swinging a wet noodle around and the ONLY way you can do good damage (appropriate damage id say)
is through Destroyer Capstone+class feautres+Mark+Powerful Challenge + IBS combo.
So likely what would need to happen is other areas toned back, such as mark/powerful challenge/Destroyer Capstone ETC
Id like to see STR = 2% dmg boost (about 10-15% more damage for all GWFs) Then mark back to 8% for GWFs, keeping the same mark mechanics as we have now, then powerful challenge dropped to 15% more THREAT to marked targets.
This gives ALOT of damage room for beefing up at wills and having those play a major role in damage.
Then you can drop damage FURTHER (yes further) on encounter powers, but give alot more "control" functions via SLOWs/Daze rather than stun/Prones.
So this would look like:
Not so Fast: Increasing the area of effect AND the slow % by a large margin
Mighty Leap: Increasing also the area of effect and adding a slow OR even a short 1 second stun would be cool.
Takedown: This now "Dazes" a target for 2 seconds. (Or decrease damage and beef this to 3 seconds)
Roar: 1 second Daze.
Daring Shout: Marks + Adds a "slow" to all nearby enemies affected.
Come and Get it: Increased range by 200% AND pulls enemies literally ontop of the GWF.
Punishing Charge: Removes charges, increased range - much like "Lunge Strike for GFs but less distance, adds a 1 second Daze
Battle Fury: Make this act much like Into the Fray for GFs but maybe toned back a bit.... 25% increased damage lasts 8 seconds roughly 12 second CD.
So encounters become much less about damage, but more about utility. Most of these powers are useful again and the GWF gains most of his damage through at wills.
Can add a feat somewhere (maybe replace deep gash) where each swing lessens target movement by 5% stacks 5 times.
Now you have a GWF who is a fearful opponent, who can pull you in range, slow you in range, is very speedy (sprint) and hits like a truck with his at wills.
If I see a GF on black ice I don't even bother to engage.
If I see a TR, I give him a chase and he is wasting too much time - I move on.
I brawl on 3v3, I stay on side line and harass on 3+ more opponent players.
If I see a mob I try to go to the back line and harass the CW > HR > SW in that order.
And reality is there will be mob fights more than 50% of the time, and will have opportunity to land more sure strike(s).
I tried using pando's perma runner, and I failed miserably (it requires a strong chase, super fast decisions to be able to land the correct attack and chase down any opponent). Very good if you can do it, I had a very hard time adjusting to this build and it's not for me. My page rank flopped from 19 to 103 trying perma runner. I reversed back to my old technique and clawed back to around 30s now (I think).
I divide my combos to two parts and keep my rotations simple and try to be more aware of my surroundings,
Ideally, TR > TD > IBS > FLS > Shift Dash behind enemy > 2 Sure Strike(s) - 3 if your opponent is slow (70% of the time, this is the case) and mix the rest with unstoppable, doochikey and dailies. I feel there are some gap in my attacks, but I don't want to compromise damage on sure strike and go for cd on takedown / battlefury.
I would also be happy if a prone on takedown would be back. I also feel the stamina should be up by another 20% regeneration. I would feel GWF actions to be smooth(er) and I would be happy. I am a newbie, currently on with bracer + helmet on b.ice and carrying ancient castle and all level 7 runes (currently 15k GS). I believe following this technique will help to get on first 10 page(s) on better gear.
Changes I would like to see:
1. Take down with longer stun duration, or prone.
2. FLS with around 15% more damage.
3. Stamina Regeneration up by another 20%
4. Str adding to armor Penetration in addition to CON. I would happily abandon DEX and go for a STR,CON build instead of CON, DEX.
+ CAGI Calcultator
+ Liquid Tear Website
I think the issue would be that if you increase the damage ALOT for SS, keeping its speed would possibly make it far too strong.
After further consideration, they honestly should take the ability "Crushing Surge" fro GFs, and apply that to GWFs "Sure Strike" ONLY with regards to damage. What this would mean is a GWF with a much higher weapon damage would be able to naturally hit harder than Crushing Surge on GFs and it would hit 4x instead of 3. But with this, thats what I think speed needs a tone down.
What I would then also like to see is NO damage decrease for at wills during unstoppable. So youd get a nice speed/dps increase during unstoppable.
So again its all based around positioning/encounters and using at wills for damage. IBS could still be in play with with enough utility encounters the GWF probably wouldnt even use IBS (IMO).