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How would you like to see GWF
burkaanc
Member Posts: 2,186 Arc User
I would like reliance on stacks(like Destroyers Purpose) gone. also i would like some damage of At-Wills increased cause it stupid that class with the biggest stick deals so puny damage per hit.
PvE
As damage spec i would like to see GWF tied for top with HR and Fury SW, all are low to no utility AoE DPS classes, with some being more AoE focused and some a bit more single target, CW damage should be reduced by a lot cause their job is to cc stuff not dps. I would like to see target caps go, that would be an easy way to increase dps without affecting pvp or taking the job of single target class like TR. I would like to see rubberbanding on Wicked strike gone and more responsive sprint. For tank spec i would like to see more tools to generate aggro and keep angry stuff off party(Come and get it, Daring shout) members making GWF a more damage oriented alternative to a more utility oriented GF
PvP
I feel GWF in an ok place in PvP now, but imho we have too much cc immunity making it a nightmare for classes that rely on cc to keep them safe, we just run them down like nothing, but it needs to be compensated in either survivability or damage, maybe old unstoppable, and old sprint, i think GWF would have been just fine with Threatening Rush nerf and, maybe, some minor tweaks.
Instigator
I feel like Instigator should be At-Will DPS path, focusing on encounters that support our at wills, like Not so fast granting CA, Battle fury should be brought to this tree. In this tree most of our damage would come from boosted at-wills making it sustained damage build falling behind Destroyer in burst damage. Instigator would be better in harder content or at lower gear levels where you have more time to deal sustained damage while destroyer would be better at BiS levels/easier content cause of burst. Instigator capstone should be reworked, maybe to opposite - gaining damage from taking hits since theres no way melee class without dodge wont be taking damage.
Destroyer
Destroyer should be our encounter based tree focusing more on burst damage making it better for blowing up stuff fast than for longer fights.
Sentinel
Sent needs more PvE tanking stuff, we have trouble getting and maintaining aggro.
PvE
As damage spec i would like to see GWF tied for top with HR and Fury SW, all are low to no utility AoE DPS classes, with some being more AoE focused and some a bit more single target, CW damage should be reduced by a lot cause their job is to cc stuff not dps. I would like to see target caps go, that would be an easy way to increase dps without affecting pvp or taking the job of single target class like TR. I would like to see rubberbanding on Wicked strike gone and more responsive sprint. For tank spec i would like to see more tools to generate aggro and keep angry stuff off party(Come and get it, Daring shout) members making GWF a more damage oriented alternative to a more utility oriented GF
PvP
I feel GWF in an ok place in PvP now, but imho we have too much cc immunity making it a nightmare for classes that rely on cc to keep them safe, we just run them down like nothing, but it needs to be compensated in either survivability or damage, maybe old unstoppable, and old sprint, i think GWF would have been just fine with Threatening Rush nerf and, maybe, some minor tweaks.
Instigator
I feel like Instigator should be At-Will DPS path, focusing on encounters that support our at wills, like Not so fast granting CA, Battle fury should be brought to this tree. In this tree most of our damage would come from boosted at-wills making it sustained damage build falling behind Destroyer in burst damage. Instigator would be better in harder content or at lower gear levels where you have more time to deal sustained damage while destroyer would be better at BiS levels/easier content cause of burst. Instigator capstone should be reworked, maybe to opposite - gaining damage from taking hits since theres no way melee class without dodge wont be taking damage.
Destroyer
Destroyer should be our encounter based tree focusing more on burst damage making it better for blowing up stuff fast than for longer fights.
Sentinel
Sent needs more PvE tanking stuff, we have trouble getting and maintaining aggro.
Paladin Master Race
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Comments
About the GWFs trees, each one should be focused on a mode like Insigator for dps pvp, Destroyer for dps pve and sentinel for tank of both. Based on that, it would help a lot in the balancing.
But first, reviewing the AoE damages encounters/at-wills (and the powers like Steel grace ... LOL not working at pvp) and removing the target cap is absolutely necessary, GWF should be the king or at least at the top DPS.
Reaping Strike should not slow that much, he could make a Charge or prone for example.
If we must sacrify our Tanking from Unstoppable or even from Sprint to finally get the Damages we deserve in PvE, then I'd totally agree to sacrify it.
Introduction.
I think we all have some consensus here.
1 - one destroyer (m3) is sufficiently "tank" for both pve and pvp.
2- be 100% tank , it is useless for this game (pve). Be 100%"off tank" is a nullity.
3 - most players, originally seen as the gwf dps + aoe "off tank".
4 - The base damage is low.
I would do the following rework based on my perspective and what I've heard from many players (pros and cons):
general:
1 - base damage increased to +/-30% (this may be done by heroic feets).
2 - The class does not suffer more aoe penalties .
3 - controls are reduced between encounters (similar to the work done in the ranger).
4 - the unstoppable returns to its starting point (I have no opinion on the sprint).
Changes in the trees:
Instigator: is now our leader / controller.
PVE Projection: "off controller" + "off leader". Good aoe damage/ moderate single damage.
pvp: similar to m3 destroyer (control), additional utility, however, with "48%" less single damage potential .
Destroyer: dps aoe king, predominant in bonus damage BASED ON THE AMOUNT OF OPPONENTS, not stacks systems.
Projection pve: dps/burst damage AOE fast and high. In terms of damage will be better than the old "thau", with the difference that in the absence of control, have your limitad "tank" (thus an "off tank" thanks fir the threat). Like instigator, moderate single target.
Pvp: do not think it will be much better than the old cw.
Sentinel :. Sentinel is no longer the tank tree and becomes the single target tree. :eek:
Projection pve: the same "aoe" of instigator 2.0, and the same single target of destroyer m3. Equal resistance to previous trees.
pvp: destroyer m3 without control (but best initial damage).
additional Nerfs and buffs:
Ibs: base damage reduced by 15% (. Sentinel stabilized with some loss destroyer extends with AOE).
Battle fury receive damage bonus based on their strength/part of power (but only shareable with the instigator).
Reaping strike: charge more fast (destroyer).
Spinning strike: the initial animation now have a control purpose similar to CGI control (pull and strike)
avalanch of steel: limited to 8 targets.
Savage advantage: the final damage will be expanded based on the amount of enemies hit by the battle cry.
Steadfast: determination bonus gain.
Now seriously: Instigator should have more DPS than Sentinel and less than Destroyer, feats based in CA that would grant bonuses to the party like more AP gain or CA dmg, some kind of auto-deflect meaning that every some seconds (30s, 20s, depends) he will have increased chance to ignore a higher amount of dmg for some seconds like those Berserkers in SP (so + 30% deflection and +25% deflection severity) and gets a bonus to his DPS when this is activated for some seconds but there would be a CD obviously.
Sentinel: This path should bring more group utility, a Sentinel can't do anything properly: bad DPS and bad tanking but at least should help the group to be better during a run with some skills like Come and Get It (increased target limit) Slam is able to mark every enemy around him. If they keep Restoring Strike in the capstone, it should not be affected by Healing Depression but if it's changed it should be something like: enemies on the sight of the sentinel have reduced damage resistance.
GM's just need to decide what they are doing and stick with it.
They put this paragon thing in place.. DPS - Tank/Control - Heal/Support
They need to do that or not do it... one or the other.
Example- Take the word Control out of Control Wizard, and name it something else.. or make all the paths control. They say they made paths for the different functions, but say nothing when people come on here saying 'it's a CONTROL wizard!'
Or just make all the paths different ways of asserting control. (Making the enemy dead could be considered control, but that is not...haha)
Yeh, I know this is about GWF's, and I have three of them. They are each different and I like them all.
I just want them to pick a design and stick to it. Don't really care which way they go... just that they are decisive.
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
I like that the class has a "unity" and that this unit stand out from the unit of the other classes.
the unity of gwf is, or should be, "off tank / dps aoe" (cap5, ie heavy or sustained aoe).
* considering the increased base damage and the loss of aoe penalty , all three paths I proposed has a aoe almost as good (or better) than the current destroyer, especially considering that the vast majority do not use "determination builders "; and I'm not conditioned 30% extra damage to some class feature. you can still shape their gwf (one sentinel 2.0 using the class feature destroyer would have a better aoe than the current destroyer +, circumstantially in pve, a much better single).
* only the "sentinel old school" would be lost. but he currently has 0 use for pve and've seen more than one person complaining about having to be re-sentinel for pvp.
is a small sacrifice in exchange for a sea of possibilities.
or someone here has the illusion that a off tank bringing a little more utility is better than a full tank, which brings more utility than the current dc and still a single burst better than our destroyer?
Zacazu, I know your intentions are good, and I can tell that you have something good to say, but in your post, the translator did not work to say what you intended, I think. ( I mean that in a friendly, helpful way. I apologize in advance if it sounds offensive.)
I think that the GWF should (at base level) not be a tank, he just needs extra survivability because his attacks require him to be in the crowd, surrounded and pounded. Of course- [DPS - Tank/Control - Heal/Support] paragon paths come into play and make things complicated. So with specialization, a GWF tank is appropriate. But he should not be a DPS king, in that case.
I know Off-Tank. And players should be able to do that. But they should then be less than optimal in both attributes. The trouble is, that nerfs etc are applied because people are creative in their builds. And then people copy them. (Not suggesting that everyone with similar build copied. Often there is only one (or a very few) logical build(s), and many arrive at the same build, but one person posted it, so.. it magically becomes their build.)
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
dual wield 2handed weapons :cool:
I answered the question "In what direction do you want to see this class go?". I think this question is the inspiration of this thread.
Answer: AOE dps / "off tank". The direction of a class needs to be a unit.
Currently we are single target dps with inclination to AOE. unfortunately, we lagged in every aspect with extreme internal gap. Never seen any player ask for it. Also never heard someone ask to be "off tank".
Dps was what enabled the class to pve. Tank (and regen builds) which was delayed the class until the module 1.
* Excessive control was what "tipped" the class in this module.
*
"Combos", in general, are constructed from poorly designed feets + bugs + aimlessness. Nerfs are due to negative feedbacks about a false unity .
You can get a unit in the tank where it can not escape. Here is what separates us from the gf. From there, we can limit, internally, the distribution of damage (specialization) and control between each tree (more aoe damage / more single damage / more control).
was what I did.
Ps: Soon, the rogue will get a buff in single target without precedent in the history of this game. And you can bet the dc will be a pvp tank MUCH better than the current sentinel.include damage too.
Aoe damage - burst - is currently the only function that has no competitors.And,historically, it is the desire of the players.
GWF buffs
- soon -
GWF buff
module 6 at least
- soon -
Thank you for understanding me and that I meant you no ill.
Mostly I do not understand what you mean when you use the word unit. Which just means to me- one, or a whole.
As for my own perception, which is all it is.. it is based on how I play without regard to what may have been intended...
I have always considered the GWF... whether SM or IV... the same.. as- I will keep this crowd busy while you take the main objective. Yeah, and I will kill them too, so that when you are done we can go home and drink a toast.
I have also considered them an excellent choice as a boss killer, when the team's TR suddenly realizes he's not as buff as he thought he was. (But I have also done that with my conqueror GF, and no one complained..
But that is just it.. there are three paragons.. I have no idea what instigator is for... I really don't. But Sentinel is supposed to tank, not DPS, and Destroyer is supposed to be the guy you do not want angry with you... He just needs to be able to survive his own stupidity.. I mean class not player.. he is berserker.. he jumps into the fray and wades in rivers of death. He just has to be able to take a punch. But that should not make him a tank.
I hope you are right.. TR needs to be the boss killer, it is his job.
GF draws fire and withstands it. Drives and motivates the rest of the party. He angers the mob doing this, so DC has to keep him alive. CW makes sure that the mobs don't get the upperhand, while the GWF dispatches them. The TR takes out the boss.
Can replace any with SW or HR as desired to keep it interesting... Just if replacing GF or DC, maybe replace both....
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
"The Great Weapon Fighter is an unstoppable force of damage and steel, skilled in using the weight of the greatsword to dispatch Those que stand in the way. The epitome of strength, the Great Weapon Fighter Also is resilient enough to defend allies in need. "
There is here clearly a primary function (damage) and a secondary (tank). And this secondary function (tank) is an emergency. It is not ideal.
Let's compare:
"Control Wizards primarily focus on controlling the battlefield and dealing damage to a large number of creatures simultaneously."
In the case of cw, damage and control are inseparable. Do not get me wrong, there are several gaps in this class. But it does exactly what it promises with a note: the control of wizard has not limited by another class. Indeed, the paradigm of control is the wizard.
Similarly, the paradigm of "tank" is Guardian fighter.
The gwf be somehow a better tank than gf breaks your function (and it would be necessary to make the sentinel viable ... what today would require a huge buff). And as we know, up the damage of the sentinel would bring a huge imbalance in the game and forcing the destroyer to be much more powerful than it currently is.
Knowing that, while tank, one destroyer is sufficient, it seems fair to me here is that your limit.
Now we have an interesting point here:
who is the paradigm of aoe damage?
ps: ahn... paradigm is not the most appropriate word.
In pvp, if ranged DPS was fixed, the gwf should be where it is now. Without the absurd ranged burst dps game pvp has become.
I would give up on my pve cw and destroyer gwf for dual wielding badassary! :cool:
BlackberryCheesecake CW
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
CheeseCake House
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
GWF DPS is good now for AoE and specially for single target, the only issue regarding to PvE is how stupid a CW can do more DPS than us. We must gain stacks in order to get full dmg and make critical hits when they just have to deal dmg, I mean their DPS tree have no restrictions.
I don't care if a SW or HR is able to outdps us, that's how it should be, at least for AoE/trash clearing while we stay as the best class for single target but being able to CC + heavy aoe dmg, that's stupid. Even when we had Deep Gash bugged, that's all we were able to do: pure DPS but zero CC.
SW was planned to be the single target king with TR, and HR an AoE Support DPS.
Atm we're not the best class for single target, SW is better, idk about HR/CW, but soon the TR will be the best.
We havn't any CC except Frontline Surge/Flourish/Takedown. But those are Tank/Single target Powers, so tell me what would be the problem to be the king of Aoe DPS with controls, when our AoE powers don't have any controls (except Frontline Surge but his damages are not that good)
You're right about the CW problem, but GWF is a problem too, he needs buffs.
Yes, we are the best class for single target atm, at least I can't be beaten by any other class in that, against same geared people ofc.
Was talking about PvP SW.
About GWF single target, maybe in PvE, but not in PvP. But soon TR will beat GWF single target.
Nice contradiction you got there.
And as I mentioned in another thread, even if the TR is crazy OP vs single target in PvE they will not be required because boss fights are already too short, when the people want a fast run, they look for a class that can clear trash asap and the TR doesn't have AoE. GWF will be still better due to the AoE dmg, heavy single target dps plus a couple of things more.
GWFs have the worst AoE DPS between DPS classes (HR/CW/SW) and is just in front of DPS GF (and GF has more tanking).
So no, he's not as good as other classes anymore.
I can't believe what I just read.
Wouldnt know bout that. When I started this game I was all about PVE but soon it became evident that with my schedule of only being able to login for an hour or two after work I cant find reliable groups to do PVE content. PUGs usually sucked and my time zone pretty much left me alone in guild when online.. So after the boring dailies the only content with some diversity and fun left for me was PVP.. So I guess Im a PVP player now and Im loving how my Destro performs. Also, I predict alot of complaining about PVP GWFs in the near future since the good ones pretty much dont die and kill like crazy. We can be more 'perma' now that the perma TRs.
PS: Instigator always sucked, Im thinking posts like yours simply aim to incite some sort of buffs for the GWFs and while Im not against such buff I gotta say currently we have all the tools we need to be a PVP threat and do OK in PVE. I went to GG recently ( in full PVP gear + PVP build ) for the first time in a while and sat comfortably at 3rd place DPS wise after a wizard and a PVE GWF during Dwarf King runs.
Im content
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
"The Great Weapon Fighter is an unstoppable force of damage and steel, skilled in using the weight of a greatsword to dispatch those that stand in the way. The epitome of strength, the Great Weapon Fighter is also resilient enough to defend allies in need."
me too ... but ignoring the possible changes that occur (rogue has "aoe" too ...) I interpret the description this way:
gwf is strong. this is the primary condition. And be strong, THEREFORE is tough. this here is what is in common in the class, so can not be a variant.
variant needs to be the ability to use a sword.
I will illustrate what I think with a legitimate gwf in action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX_iqOaQQGY
Definitely a strong figure, and be strong, it is sturdy enough to be able to take attacks that would have "killed their party." Thus, a class is to be on the front line, but not as a human shield.
the normal behavior is that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhuQFLd9R90
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoXognXhqXA