I dont know if it was mechanics or just straight DPS, I didnt have one at the time. But TRs were OP at least PVE, that is not a myth.
Heres a vid, pre nerf. We were mostly 10-11k GS at this time. This dude actually had normal vorpal, not even a greater. And yes PK is easy now. Back then it was kind of difficult (kind of, not really, but many discussions about how you properly did it after the fixed the bug where you hopped on the wall). No discussion was needed. Just TR dps boss rest is irrelevant.
I'd say the main factor there was the old Lurker's Assault, which is in effect every time the view goes Shadowfell-like. That was a 60% damage boost for the TR, pre-nerf.
Re: Wicked Reminder
There were people using it, and telling other people to use it, before Demon posted the video showing what you could do with the lack of target caps. It's not our fault if nobody wanted to listen or try it for themselves.
There are a LOT of players who do not own even standard vorpal enchantments. I have a few lessers, but that is it. They are too expensive for the majority of players. Keep in mind, those that post here are among the more avid players, in general. I know many NW players in real life that have level 60 characters without ANY armor/weapon enchants because they can't afford them.
These "max" hit scenarios involve expensive gear that many players will not have for a long time (and some will never have). My old school TR never hit anywhere near 20k.
It just seems like we are looking at best-case situations, not the norm.
that's the main problem with all the complaints towards rogues. they always touted max-geared rogues with perfect vorpals and against squishy wizards as if that is the average scenario. my lashing never went higher than 10-14k and my impacts were 5-8k each on criticals (max damage requires a critical beforehand). if all 4-5 shots hit, then yeah....i could easily kill a squishy but some people forget that the dodge mechanic can save them from that. i mean, it's not like a rogue's encounters were ridiculously tough to avoid like the gwf's encounters/at-will.
i don't even consider impact shot to be overpowered pre-nerf since 3-4 shots are not all likely to critical and it's not like it stunned people in place for every single shot like some people claimed it did. i and others i have fought knew the timing for when impact would be thrown from stealth and thus we could consistently dodge the stealthed impact. also, dodgeable after the 1st or 2nd hit usually but depends. the 6x impact that kweassa mentioned in some other thread, however, is overpowered but i consider that more of an exploit since that should never have been intended.
now that tenacity exists, no reason not to give us back our dps. everyone is too tanky or has enough cc to fight back that at the very least we can do more than play tag with flurry.
personally, i would suggest changes like this to avoid exploits and help the class:
impact shot stealth bonus changed to a 30% chance to miss on any attack debuff
bait n switch also becoming a non-damaging gap-closer like deft strike (stealth bonus can remain)
double stealth mechanic
upon entering combat, you become semi-visible while in stealth (bar still drains and encounters deplete it normally)
while semi-visible you have: 10% increased deflect chance, 5-10% deflect severity, 25% cc resist
that's the main problem with all the complaints towards rogues. they always touted max-geared rogues with perfect vorpals and against squishy wizards as if that is the average scenario. my lashing never went higher than 10-14k and my impacts were 5-8k each on criticals (max damage requires a critical beforehand). if all 4-5 shots hit, then yeah....i could easily kill a squishy but some people forget that the dodge mechanic can save them from that. i mean, it's not like a rogue's encounters were ridiculously tough to avoid like the gwf's encounters/at-will.
i don't even consider impact shot to be overpowered pre-nerf since 3-4 shots are not all likely to critical and it's not like it stunned people in place for every single shot like some people claimed it did. i and others i have fought knew the timing for when impact would be thrown from stealth and thus we could consistently dodge the stealthed impact. also, dodgeable after the 1st or 2nd hit usually but depends. the 6x impact that kweassa mentioned in some other thread, however, is overpowered but i consider that more of an exploit since that should never have been intended.
now that tenacity exists, no reason not to give us back our dps. everyone is too tanky or has enough cc to fight back that at the very least we can do more than play tag with flurry.
personally, i would suggest changes like this to avoid exploits and help the class:
impact shot stealth bonus changed to a 30% chance to miss on any attack debuff
bait n switch also becoming a non-damaging gap-closer like deft strike (stealth bonus can remain)
double stealth mechanic
upon entering combat, you become semi-visible while in stealth (bar still drains and encounters deplete it normally)
while semi-visible you have: 10% increased deflect chance, 5-10% deflect severity, 25% cc resist
stealth loss on taking damage removed
90% reduction in stealth loss feature replaced
I really hope no one of the dev consider these suggestion.
Without tenacious concilement stealth dont last 1 minutes.
Semi visible....da **** does it mean????
We only agree on bait and swith reworked...the cheese is there
I'd say the main factor there was the old Lurker's Assault, which is in effect every time the view goes Shadowfell-like. That was a 60% damage boost for the TR, pre-nerf.
Re: Wicked Reminder
There were people using it, and telling other people to use it, before Demon posted the video showing what you could do with the lack of target caps. It's not our fault if nobody wanted to listen or try it for themselves.
name one spot in any dungeon were mobs are clustered like in that foundry.
wk was used in all pve builds/guides since start of the game but its simply not viable any more
its not that people dont know abouth it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-jp9hs61bg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bVklb9RWyY
very old vids
u can see everyone is using it neather demon or you invented it lol
but back then tr was packing some dmg
Like I said we were 10-11K, not overgeared in anyway. Normal Vorapl, which is easy to attain and was easier at that time.
Im not calling for nerfs or buffs, I rarely call for any of that in a MMO, the devs just do it. This vid was pre nerf, just to show what kind of DPS you could achieve with an avg geared TR. They obviously knew what they were doing, better than any other TR iIve seen PVE since and now. Like I said I wasnt sure about mechanics, Becky kind of cleared it up.
To return TRs to that prenerf status would completely trivialize PVE. (PS even though I said I dont call for nerfs or buffs, I completely agree TRs need a little buff, just not pre nerf mod 1 buff)
I really hope no one of the dev consider these suggestion.
Without tenacious concilement stealth dont last 1 minutes.
Semi visible....da **** does it mean????
We only agree on bait and swith reworked...the cheese is there
it seems you missed the part where i said "stealth loss on taking damage" can be removed (hence, tenacious is not necessary).
semi-visibility is to please both sides by letting us be targeted after our 1st attack while granting us passive defensive stats if we didn't use an encounter.
I'd say the main factor there was the old Lurker's Assault, which is in effect every time the view goes Shadowfell-like. That was a 60% damage boost for the TR, pre-nerf.
Re: Wicked Reminder
There were people using it, and telling other people to use it, before Demon posted the video showing what you could do with the lack of target caps. It's not our fault if nobody wanted to listen or try it for themselves.
I won't disagree that Lurker's is a big factor here, but it is hardly the only factor in the glory days of flurry. Deadly momentum used to add to crit severity AND crit chance, and at values much higher than today. Not to mention that bleed ticked twice as fast for just as long. There has also been an "adjustment" to how power affects flurry as well. Also, once you got a bleed crit started, the bleed would always crit, or not crit. A skilled player could manipulate this in conjuction with lurker's to set up MASSIVE damage. You could get a full deadly momentum stack going and pop off something like a 60-90k+ crit shocking execution at a 80% crit chance. And you did not have to be top geared to do any of this. Naturally, the huge factor here was deadly momentum. Few if any people were using flurry in pvp back in the day, or rather using it to the degree that people can use it today.
An unnerfed TR would be hella scary in pvp today. People are pointing to lurker's, impact, SE, etc. Funny that no one has mentioned the COS nerf, that one REALLY hurt for pvp, but was probably appropriate. The real Target of nerfs has been duelist flurry. Just roughly guessing I'd say flurry effectiveness has been reduced by around 60-80%.
Also for those saying that even if TR had it's old dmg back they would still be unwanted, let me say this. You have 2 gwf and 2 cw. Now you can take another GWF or CW and clear mob fights 5-10% faster. Or you can take a TR and clear the boss fights twice as fast......... I know which one I would pick .
Not that I am saying that TR should be brought to completely un-nerfed levels. I am definitely not saying that. I don't want to see a stealth nerf that affects their combat ability or survivability either. Stealth for node control however, yep, I'd like to see that reworked. I get hella annoyed when I'm fighting a perma that runs whenever he's about to die and only threatens the node when no one is there. Personally, if it's a 1v1 or 2v1 I never leave the node and if they can kill me they deserve the kill. Now if it's 3vs1 + well, forget that I'm not staying on a node just to be ganked by skillless aoe spams. Really, what I look for in PVP, above all, is a really good duel with a worthy opponent fighting with skill.
Really, in these days I'm really only seeing two classes in which high skill level plays a crucial factor in success or failure. That is TR and CW. With TR the defensive aspect is simple enough, with learning how to negate or evade certain powers being tricky, but figuring out how to kill people is what is hard. With CW, killing someone is simple enough, learning how to SURVIVE is hard. This is not to say that I have not encountered highly skilled players in other classes. It's just, for the most part as a GWF or HR or DC, your skill cap really doesn't need to be that high. Poor GFs are so lacking in mobility and defensive mechanics that even those players at high skill levels can only do so much. When all of a sudden someone encounters a highly mobile invisible opponent they are forced to think outside the box. Rather than adapt and overcome they think it's unfair and cry nerf. I went through this as well. But lately, I am no longer resentful and crying "nerf the GWFS, nerf the HRs". Other than roar, I am ok with where GWFs are at. Hrs are a bit OP sure, but to some degree I have figured out how to kill them. Dcs are super tough, but when I thought about it, I mixed up my rotation and came up with a way to adapt to and kill most dcs.
Short skit*
GWF points at the TR "This coward won't stand and fight, if he would fight like a man I would pwn him and that would be fair"
HR points at the GWF "That chain prone is way too powerful and it's the only way I ever die, totally unfair!, nerf that roar spammer"
TR points at the HR "That thorn ward covers the entire node!(not quite true), and with that deflect healing it makes flurry, COS and POTB completely useless and these are the only attacks I can use, nerf that "tank" ranger!"
CW *wakes up at the spawn point after being killed for the nth time
DC "um so I'm awesome but...... why don't I ever get rewarded for helping my team..... like ever"
GF *cries in corner which would look soul wrenching if he wasn't a fat ugly dwarf"
Ok ya, I'd say NW could use some class re-balancing, but can we look at the big picture .
Also for those saying that even if TR had it's old dmg back they would still be unwanted, let me say this. You have 2 gwf and 2 cw. Now you can take another GWF or CW and clear mob fights 5-10% faster. Or you can take a TR and clear the boss fights twice as fast......... I know which one I would pick .
Clearing a boss fight twice as fast implies the amount of increase in TR damage capability alone is equal to the sum of the rest 4 people combined.
So, even if we take into consideration certain amount of exaggeration, an increase in TR damage which alone is worth a 100% boost in the team's total DPS output is simply impossible. At most I'd expect a 10~15% faster boss fights. But ofcourse, no boss fight takes longer than the amount of time combined to get to the boss. In any dungeon content, in most every MMORPGs, around 80~90% of the time spent is en route to the boss.
So in all practicality, as well as probability... Naw, an increase in TR damage simply is not worth choosing it over another GWF or a CW. I know I wouldn't.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Clearing a boss fight twice as fast implies the amount of increase in TR damage capability alone is equal to the sum of the rest 4 people combined.
So, even if we take into consideration certain amount of exaggeration, an increase in TR damage which alone is worth a 100% boost in the team's total DPS output is simply impossible. At most I'd expect a 10~15% faster boss fights. But ofcourse, no boss fight takes longer than the amount of time combined to get to the boss. In any dungeon content, in most every MMORPGs, around 80~90% of the time spent is en route to the boss.
So in all practicality, as well as probability... Naw, an increase in TR damage simply is not worth choosing it over another GWF or a CW. I know I wouldn't.
Pre-nerf levels it would only be a slight exaggeration the damage really was that good, even if people were not always playing with ideal builds and rotations which is more common today. You also have to consider that in some boss fights members of the party are tied up managing adds while a TR can pretty much beat on the boss without a care via stealth(SPC may be the best example of this). And you might be entirely right in your assessment of ideal party comp, but TRs would be on the map, I do not doubt that for a second.
Did I mention that a un-nerfed bis spec TR today could get a full deadly momentum stack and hit something like 50k+ WOB crits with an extremely high crit chance, not including debuffs. This is theoretical, I have no concrete proof, so your welcome to take my word for it, or not. But back in the day TR's were topping the paingiver charts over aoe classes, and that...... is saying a lot.
It looks like some people commenting here hates TR most specially STEALTH probably someone using CW, GWF or HR as main and just build a TR as second character for fun. First things first why do you want to destroy something beautiful like STEALTH? Let me answer it for you it is because you do not know how to counter stealth and you want your class to be on top so LETS NERF TR.
look at this
GWF unstoppable: Immune to cc w/ Damage Reduction with Shield w/ increase Attck Speed w/ heal(feat)
PRONE ROTATION+TANKY+HIGH DAMAGE WHAT ARE YOU COMPLAINING?
CW (tab): 4th encounter+ range+cc lock+aoe+high mobility WHAT ARE COMPLAINING?
HR: high regen+high mobility+ six encounters(when you tab)+can cc lock(depending on encounter)+insane deflect regen+tanky WHAT ARE YOU COMPLAINING?
compare to TR Stealth: reduction in stealth meter when you use at-will and recieved damage, unstealth when using encounter, can be detected if near (pvp) now tell me if whats your problem with stealth? Do you want me to teach you how to counter stealth and how to catch a TR in stealth
One last thing I forgot to mention. Some people may not remember or realize this, but if you think CW is beast now, that class would be far beyond beast now un-nerfed. Yes, CW has been nerfed, believe it or not. Let me tell you a story about CW. Eye of the storm used to have a much higher proc chance, shield burst used to have no target cap and built AP for every target hit, entangling force on tab used to build AP for every target pulled, with no target cap. The old style CW could cap a daily every 12 seconds and proc EOTS by just spamming a few at wills. Yet, Trs were performing equally to or out performing THAT in terms of damage. With that in mind, what makes you think they wouldn't still be if they hadn't been hammered into the ground by the nerf bat?
The original deadly momentum was very comparable to EOTS. Except it added crit severity as well as nigh auto crit capability. This transformed sub-par powers like blitz, wicked reminder and WOB into potentially devastating damage.
Survivability was much lower back then, life steal did not play such a huge role as it does now, making a good DC much loved.
The glory days are gone, they will not be coming back, we can only hope changes will bring true balance rather than rapidly changing shifts in power, I for one, will not hold my breath.
0
chaoscourtesanMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The thing is, TR aren't "squishy". I don't know why many players say this..
Even full DPS isn't -that- squishy. Unless you just like to stand around and watch pretty numbers floating in the air or the red patches on the ground. TR just has to keep moving. TR deals enough damage fast enough that a reasonable amount of LS will make a huge difference.
TR's die when they adjust their tactics to their team and then the team doesn't act like one.
I like my TR just fine and he's nothing special. He's a built on the fly while leveling build, my first character.. who wasn't deleted. haha
I just want the things they broke to be unbroken, and then no complaints at all.
Eh always gotta add.. I don't pvp.. this is all pve perspective
Rhyon Cawdorian GWF | Opa Loka TR | Cormac Argentus III DC | Annika Thornblade GF | Aerys Skydark HR | Bartin Findlor TR | Aellia Baalthrall CW | Lucan Hawkmoon CW | Opa Brahk GWF | Korzbyrk DC | Den Kruk GWF | Jherek Skarsin CW |
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
This is not a place for "CW, GWF, GF, or HR Im too dumb to know how to fight TR so lets nerf it" place. Get out of here you just want to destroy TR so your favorite class can dominate. So what if TR have stealth and high damage? It is still squishy compared to other melee class. It doesnt have a cookie cutter CC like other class and I want everyone to put this on your heads IT REQUIRES SKILL FOR A TR TO INJECT ITS VENOM. Now tell me who among you here non TR dumb enough not to know how to counter stealth or play against TR?
. But back in the day TR's were topping the paingiver charts over aoe classes, and that...... is saying a lot.
you couldn be more wrong
back in a day most popular cw build was repel,sing,shield,icy terrain, pushing mobs off cliffs nothing to do with dps.
gwf was realy bad in pve and no one wanted him in a dungeon even gf had better dmg.
so tr was topping only because cw was controling and gwf was useles before mod 2.
mod 1 pve dmg was just about right way better single target then anyone else as it should be
I remember when they fixed the bugged deep gash. The main focus of that was to bring GWF damage down as it was way overboard. I found it funny that after correcting the bugged powers/feats they then took away TR SE and basically gave it to the GWF but not as a daily instead as an encounter, and not as a single target encounter but instead as an AE. I must say I was somewhat 'shocked'. Some GWF at that time warned that with the feat giving bonus damage to IBS and SS that they would overtake TR in single target damage but the devs did not seem to be concerned at all.
From my ACT parses against lesser geared GWF (some without a weapon enchant even), my perfect vorpal 7k power TR falls behind on single target damage on longer fights. Act generally reveals the best damage being SS, then IBS, then bleed.
I used to have a TR (then I took an arrow to the knee).
As long as TR doesn't has good aoe attacks like GWFs FLS and most of all powerfull aoe at-will like GWFs wicked strike they will be always more wanted.
Blitz, POB are not that powerful, wicked reminder recently nerfed, smoke bomb is nice but it should have some dmg at least.
Not to mention their unparalell single target dmg with IBS.
you couldn be more wrong
back in a day most popular cw build was repel,sing,shield,icy terrain, pushing mobs off cliffs nothing to do with dps.
gwf was realy bad in pve and no one wanted him in a dungeon even gf had better dmg.
so tr was topping only because cw was controling and gwf was useles before mod 2.
mod 1 pve dmg was just about right way better single target then anyone else as it should be
Right you are on all those points. Cws were actually high valued for their control abilities, and GFs did indeed have monster dps. But, there were also plenty of places where pushing mobs off a cliff was not an option. Neither CWs or TRs were using ideal rotations with maximum potential damage to the degree they are today. When your talking power scaling and AOE burst CW would likely be out-dpsing TRs today, even if TRs were un-nerfed. However, if memory serves me correctly, which is asking a lot of my memory, the original deadly momentum was bugged in that it actually gave TR a +75% crit severity at full deadly momentum. Naturally, this was more than a little bit OP. The synergistic effect of an un-nerfed deadly momentum, un-nerfed flurry, un-nerfed lurkers assault, and all this in conjunction with critical overrun is mind boggling, and would easily put TR as the top performing class in terms of single target DPS. You would still have the problem of a flurry using executioner as THE only viable PVE build, and most of their encounters and dailies being vastly underwhelming, for the future and class balance we can hope for better than that.
I'm just going to post some things here so you can see what I'm talking about. These first entries are taken directly from NW patch notes.
Patch Notes – NW.3.20130529d.6
Duelist's Flurry: The bleed now ticks more slowly.
Feat: Deadly Momentum: The Critical Severity buff from this feat has been reduced to match the tooltip.
Patch NW.5.20130812b.8
Duelist's Flurry: This power no longer incorrectly gains slightly too much of a benefit from the Power stat.
Duelist's Flurry: When the bleed portion of this power is at 10 stacks, further applications now recalculate damage in addition to refreshing the duration.
Lurker's Assault: This power now grants 15 / 20 / 25% bonus damage, down from 20 / 40 / 60%.
And this from another forum.
On the topic of exploits : Currently, i've noticed that deadly momentum (TR paragon passive) is bugged as in it gives way more crit severity than it is supposed to.
It should give 5x3 crit severity = 15%, but instead it gives 5x15 = 75%.
Every rogue and their mother uses deadly momentum.
Every rogue is now an exploiter.
Ban all the rogues.
Hmmm I can find nothing that supports deadly momentum adding to crit chance, must have been in my imagination.
nice to see df was nerfed 5 times LOL
and one more is coming with with bilethorn nerf.
making total OF 6 DUALLIST FLURRY NERFS hehehee
but we should be gratefull coz they canceled nerf number 7 which was in a preview.
Right you are on all those points. Cws were actually high valued for their control abilities, and GFs did indeed have monster dps. But, there were also plenty of places where pushing mobs off a cliff was not an option. Neither CWs or TRs were using ideal rotations with maximum potential damage to the degree they are today. When your talking power scaling and AOE burst CW would likely be out-dpsing TRs today, even if TRs were un-nerfed. However, if memory serves me correctly, which is asking a lot of my memory, the original deadly momentum was bugged in that it actually gave TR a +75% crit severity at full deadly momentum. Naturally, this was more than a little bit OP. The synergistic effect of an un-nerfed deadly momentum, un-nerfed flurry, un-nerfed lurkers assault, and all this in conjunction with critical overrun is mind boggling, and would easily put TR as the top performing class in terms of single target DPS. You would still have the problem of a flurry using executioner as THE only viable PVE build, and most of their encounters and dailies being vastly underwhelming, for the future and class balance we can hope for better than that.
I'm just going to post some things here so you can see what I'm talking about. These first entries are taken directly from NW patch notes.
Patch Notes – NW.3.20130529d.6
Duelist's Flurry: The bleed now ticks more slowly.
Feat: Deadly Momentum: The Critical Severity buff from this feat has been reduced to match the tooltip.
Patch NW.5.20130812b.8
Duelist's Flurry: This power no longer incorrectly gains slightly too much of a benefit from the Power stat.
Duelist's Flurry: When the bleed portion of this power is at 10 stacks, further applications now recalculate damage in addition to refreshing the duration.
Lurker's Assault: This power now grants 15 / 20 / 25% bonus damage, down from 20 / 40 / 60%.
And this from another forum.
On the topic of exploits : Currently, i've noticed that deadly momentum (TR paragon passive) is bugged as in it gives way more crit severity than it is supposed to.
It should give 5x3 crit severity = 15%, but instead it gives 5x15 = 75%.
Every rogue and their mother uses deadly momentum.
Every rogue is now an exploiter.
Ban all the rogues.
Hmmm I can find nothing that supports deadly momentum adding to crit chance, must have been in my imagination.
yeah since the nerf no one uses deadly momentum any more its 2% dmg boost meh.....
nice to see df was nerfed 5 times LOL
and one more is coming with with bilethorn nerf.
making total OF 6 DUALLIST FLURRY NERFS hehehee
but we should be gratefull coz they canceled nerf number 7 which was in a preview.
The bilethorn change isn't a nerf, it's a fix. The enchant double proccing was a bug and everyone knew it. Some chose to exploit, others did not. Now that it's getting fixed is why you have so many trying to unload bilethorn enchants on trade and who will most likely be stuck with it since everyone now knows it's fixed as well.
The bilethorn change isn't a nerf, it's a fix. The enchant double proccing was a bug and everyone knew it. Some chose to exploit, others did not. Now that it's getting fixed is why you have so many trying to unload bilethorn enchants on trade and who will most likely be stuck with it since everyone now knows it's fixed as well.
It's not a nerf.
Yes, it's a fix.
But it wasn't an exploit to use Bilethorn either.
Not when there wasn't a viable choice to rival it. Unlike, say, Roar-- used and abused because it's the best of good encounters. DF was the ONLY good reliable at-will that scales with most players' average skill level.
In comparison, right now Whirlwind of Blades is bugged and ignores DR, but using it does not mean exploiting it. All other dailies' base damage is now a joke. The bug actually offsets its weakness. Doesn't mean you have to take it for granted and cry WHY NERF when it eventually gets fixed.
I had no idea bilethorn was double proccing, DF is pretty **** fast that I just saw lots of numbers, never actually counted them XD
but at least it's been fixed...
now we just have to wait till mod 5 for the devs to fix the WHOLE CLASS.
The bilethorn change isn't a nerf, it's a fix. The enchant double proccing was a bug and everyone knew it. Some chose to exploit, others did not. Now that it's getting fixed is why you have so many trying to unload bilethorn enchants on trade and who will most likely be stuck with it since everyone now knows it's fixed as well.
arent you the same guy who was claiming on base of one poll one and a half year ago that tr is most popular class.
do u know that in a poll from last week tr ended up last from 7 classes
and u still have the nerv to talk to me loooooooooooooooooooooooool
you realy hate tr dont you looool
you get trickstered and look stupid even on forum
I don't disagree that the class needs an all-around damage buff, but I do think that the TR has excellent single target DPS (at least for the purposes of PVE). I use a permutation of Esteena's build, and while it certainly shines brightest with high-end gear, I was able to make substantial contributions to dungeon runs at every stage of my gear progression.
I think the problem for some players is that in order to really maximize your STDPS you need a focused build and aggressive playstyle; this doesn't necessarily cater to the trickster/stealth-heavy elements of the class. Although I prefer my melee beatstick game, the sneaky, tactical/control build should be more viable in dungeons. Of course, an overall damage buff would have benefits for us Executioners, too.
Lashing Blade damage can be underwhelming at the low end, but when conditions are right it can be huge. In the past two weeks I've had non-crits deal as little as 7.5K and big crits on debuffed targets deal as much as 130K (~75K base damage).
Comments
I'd say the main factor there was the old Lurker's Assault, which is in effect every time the view goes Shadowfell-like. That was a 60% damage boost for the TR, pre-nerf.
Re: Wicked Reminder
There were people using it, and telling other people to use it, before Demon posted the video showing what you could do with the lack of target caps. It's not our fault if nobody wanted to listen or try it for themselves.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
that's the main problem with all the complaints towards rogues. they always touted max-geared rogues with perfect vorpals and against squishy wizards as if that is the average scenario. my lashing never went higher than 10-14k and my impacts were 5-8k each on criticals (max damage requires a critical beforehand). if all 4-5 shots hit, then yeah....i could easily kill a squishy but some people forget that the dodge mechanic can save them from that. i mean, it's not like a rogue's encounters were ridiculously tough to avoid like the gwf's encounters/at-will.
i don't even consider impact shot to be overpowered pre-nerf since 3-4 shots are not all likely to critical and it's not like it stunned people in place for every single shot like some people claimed it did. i and others i have fought knew the timing for when impact would be thrown from stealth and thus we could consistently dodge the stealthed impact. also, dodgeable after the 1st or 2nd hit usually but depends. the 6x impact that kweassa mentioned in some other thread, however, is overpowered but i consider that more of an exploit since that should never have been intended.
now that tenacity exists, no reason not to give us back our dps. everyone is too tanky or has enough cc to fight back that at the very least we can do more than play tag with flurry.
personally, i would suggest changes like this to avoid exploits and help the class:
I really hope no one of the dev consider these suggestion.
Without tenacious concilement stealth dont last 1 minutes.
Semi visible....da **** does it mean????
We only agree on bait and swith reworked...the cheese is there
name one spot in any dungeon were mobs are clustered like in that foundry.
wk was used in all pve builds/guides since start of the game but its simply not viable any more
its not that people dont know abouth it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-jp9hs61bg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bVklb9RWyY
very old vids
u can see everyone is using it neather demon or you invented it lol
but back then tr was packing some dmg
so stop teaching us how to play broken class
Im not calling for nerfs or buffs, I rarely call for any of that in a MMO, the devs just do it. This vid was pre nerf, just to show what kind of DPS you could achieve with an avg geared TR. They obviously knew what they were doing, better than any other TR iIve seen PVE since and now. Like I said I wasnt sure about mechanics, Becky kind of cleared it up.
To return TRs to that prenerf status would completely trivialize PVE. (PS even though I said I dont call for nerfs or buffs, I completely agree TRs need a little buff, just not pre nerf mod 1 buff)
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
it seems you missed the part where i said "stealth loss on taking damage" can be removed (hence, tenacious is not necessary).
semi-visibility is to please both sides by letting us be targeted after our 1st attack while granting us passive defensive stats if we didn't use an encounter.
I won't disagree that Lurker's is a big factor here, but it is hardly the only factor in the glory days of flurry. Deadly momentum used to add to crit severity AND crit chance, and at values much higher than today. Not to mention that bleed ticked twice as fast for just as long. There has also been an "adjustment" to how power affects flurry as well. Also, once you got a bleed crit started, the bleed would always crit, or not crit. A skilled player could manipulate this in conjuction with lurker's to set up MASSIVE damage. You could get a full deadly momentum stack going and pop off something like a 60-90k+ crit shocking execution at a 80% crit chance. And you did not have to be top geared to do any of this. Naturally, the huge factor here was deadly momentum. Few if any people were using flurry in pvp back in the day, or rather using it to the degree that people can use it today.
An unnerfed TR would be hella scary in pvp today. People are pointing to lurker's, impact, SE, etc. Funny that no one has mentioned the COS nerf, that one REALLY hurt for pvp, but was probably appropriate. The real Target of nerfs has been duelist flurry. Just roughly guessing I'd say flurry effectiveness has been reduced by around 60-80%.
Also for those saying that even if TR had it's old dmg back they would still be unwanted, let me say this. You have 2 gwf and 2 cw. Now you can take another GWF or CW and clear mob fights 5-10% faster. Or you can take a TR and clear the boss fights twice as fast......... I know which one I would pick
Not that I am saying that TR should be brought to completely un-nerfed levels. I am definitely not saying that. I don't want to see a stealth nerf that affects their combat ability or survivability either. Stealth for node control however, yep, I'd like to see that reworked. I get hella annoyed when I'm fighting a perma that runs whenever he's about to die and only threatens the node when no one is there. Personally, if it's a 1v1 or 2v1 I never leave the node and if they can kill me they deserve the kill. Now if it's 3vs1 + well, forget that I'm not staying on a node just to be ganked by skillless aoe spams. Really, what I look for in PVP, above all, is a really good duel with a worthy opponent fighting with skill.
Really, in these days I'm really only seeing two classes in which high skill level plays a crucial factor in success or failure. That is TR and CW. With TR the defensive aspect is simple enough, with learning how to negate or evade certain powers being tricky, but figuring out how to kill people is what is hard. With CW, killing someone is simple enough, learning how to SURVIVE is hard. This is not to say that I have not encountered highly skilled players in other classes. It's just, for the most part as a GWF or HR or DC, your skill cap really doesn't need to be that high. Poor GFs are so lacking in mobility and defensive mechanics that even those players at high skill levels can only do so much. When all of a sudden someone encounters a highly mobile invisible opponent they are forced to think outside the box. Rather than adapt and overcome they think it's unfair and cry nerf. I went through this as well. But lately, I am no longer resentful and crying "nerf the GWFS, nerf the HRs". Other than roar, I am ok with where GWFs are at. Hrs are a bit OP sure, but to some degree I have figured out how to kill them. Dcs are super tough, but when I thought about it, I mixed up my rotation and came up with a way to adapt to and kill most dcs.
Short skit*
GWF points at the TR "This coward won't stand and fight, if he would fight like a man I would pwn him and that would be fair"
HR points at the GWF "That chain prone is way too powerful and it's the only way I ever die, totally unfair!, nerf that roar spammer"
TR points at the HR "That thorn ward covers the entire node!(not quite true), and with that deflect healing it makes flurry, COS and POTB completely useless and these are the only attacks I can use, nerf that "tank" ranger!"
CW *wakes up at the spawn point after being killed for the nth time
DC "um so I'm awesome but...... why don't I ever get rewarded for helping my team..... like ever"
GF *cries in corner which would look soul wrenching if he wasn't a fat ugly dwarf"
Ok ya, I'd say NW could use some class re-balancing, but can we look at the big picture
Clearing a boss fight twice as fast implies the amount of increase in TR damage capability alone is equal to the sum of the rest 4 people combined.
So, even if we take into consideration certain amount of exaggeration, an increase in TR damage which alone is worth a 100% boost in the team's total DPS output is simply impossible. At most I'd expect a 10~15% faster boss fights. But ofcourse, no boss fight takes longer than the amount of time combined to get to the boss. In any dungeon content, in most every MMORPGs, around 80~90% of the time spent is en route to the boss.
So in all practicality, as well as probability... Naw, an increase in TR damage simply is not worth choosing it over another GWF or a CW. I know I wouldn't.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Pre-nerf levels it would only be a slight exaggeration the damage really was that good, even if people were not always playing with ideal builds and rotations which is more common today. You also have to consider that in some boss fights members of the party are tied up managing adds while a TR can pretty much beat on the boss without a care via stealth(SPC may be the best example of this). And you might be entirely right in your assessment of ideal party comp, but TRs would be on the map, I do not doubt that for a second.
look at this
GWF unstoppable: Immune to cc w/ Damage Reduction with Shield w/ increase Attck Speed w/ heal(feat)
PRONE ROTATION+TANKY+HIGH DAMAGE WHAT ARE YOU COMPLAINING?
CW (tab): 4th encounter+ range+cc lock+aoe+high mobility WHAT ARE COMPLAINING?
HR: high regen+high mobility+ six encounters(when you tab)+can cc lock(depending on encounter)+insane deflect regen+tanky WHAT ARE YOU COMPLAINING?
compare to TR Stealth: reduction in stealth meter when you use at-will and recieved damage, unstealth when using encounter, can be detected if near (pvp) now tell me if whats your problem with stealth? Do you want me to teach you how to counter stealth and how to catch a TR in stealth
The original deadly momentum was very comparable to EOTS. Except it added crit severity as well as nigh auto crit capability. This transformed sub-par powers like blitz, wicked reminder and WOB into potentially devastating damage.
Survivability was much lower back then, life steal did not play such a huge role as it does now, making a good DC much loved.
The glory days are gone, they will not be coming back, we can only hope changes will bring true balance rather than rapidly changing shifts in power, I for one, will not hold my breath.
Even full DPS isn't -that- squishy. Unless you just like to stand around and watch pretty numbers floating in the air or the red patches on the ground. TR just has to keep moving. TR deals enough damage fast enough that a reasonable amount of LS will make a huge difference.
TR's die when they adjust their tactics to their team and then the team doesn't act like one.
I like my TR just fine and he's nothing special. He's a built on the fly while leveling build, my first character.. who wasn't deleted. haha
I just want the things they broke to be unbroken, and then no complaints at all.
Eh always gotta add.. I don't pvp.. this is all pve perspective
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
...in PvP, imagine those red circles move around, home-in to you, and chase you faster than you can move away.
That's PvP.
Trust me. We're squishy.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
you couldn be more wrong
back in a day most popular cw build was repel,sing,shield,icy terrain, pushing mobs off cliffs nothing to do with dps.
gwf was realy bad in pve and no one wanted him in a dungeon even gf had better dmg.
so tr was topping only because cw was controling and gwf was useles before mod 2.
mod 1 pve dmg was just about right way better single target then anyone else as it should be
Then they quickly "compensated" them with 40% untopable dmg, other buffs and easily achievable 100-150k+ IBS crits...
From my ACT parses against lesser geared GWF (some without a weapon enchant even), my perfect vorpal 7k power TR falls behind on single target damage on longer fights. Act generally reveals the best damage being SS, then IBS, then bleed.
As long as TR doesn't has good aoe attacks like GWFs FLS and most of all powerfull aoe at-will like GWFs wicked strike they will be always more wanted.
Blitz, POB are not that powerful, wicked reminder recently nerfed, smoke bomb is nice but it should have some dmg at least.
Not to mention their unparalell single target dmg with IBS.
Right you are on all those points. Cws were actually high valued for their control abilities, and GFs did indeed have monster dps. But, there were also plenty of places where pushing mobs off a cliff was not an option. Neither CWs or TRs were using ideal rotations with maximum potential damage to the degree they are today. When your talking power scaling and AOE burst CW would likely be out-dpsing TRs today, even if TRs were un-nerfed. However, if memory serves me correctly, which is asking a lot of my memory, the original deadly momentum was bugged in that it actually gave TR a +75% crit severity at full deadly momentum. Naturally, this was more than a little bit OP. The synergistic effect of an un-nerfed deadly momentum, un-nerfed flurry, un-nerfed lurkers assault, and all this in conjunction with critical overrun is mind boggling, and would easily put TR as the top performing class in terms of single target DPS. You would still have the problem of a flurry using executioner as THE only viable PVE build, and most of their encounters and dailies being vastly underwhelming, for the future and class balance we can hope for better than that.
I'm just going to post some things here so you can see what I'm talking about. These first entries are taken directly from NW patch notes.
Patch Notes – NW.3.20130529d.6
Duelist's Flurry: The bleed now ticks more slowly.
Feat: Deadly Momentum: The Critical Severity buff from this feat has been reduced to match the tooltip.
Patch NW.5.20130812b.8
Duelist's Flurry: This power no longer incorrectly gains slightly too much of a benefit from the Power stat.
Duelist's Flurry: When the bleed portion of this power is at 10 stacks, further applications now recalculate damage in addition to refreshing the duration.
Lurker's Assault: This power now grants 15 / 20 / 25% bonus damage, down from 20 / 40 / 60%.
And this from another forum.
On the topic of exploits : Currently, i've noticed that deadly momentum (TR paragon passive) is bugged as in it gives way more crit severity than it is supposed to.
It should give 5x3 crit severity = 15%, but instead it gives 5x15 = 75%.
Every rogue and their mother uses deadly momentum.
Every rogue is now an exploiter.
Ban all the rogues.
Hmmm I can find nothing that supports deadly momentum adding to crit chance, must have been in my imagination.
and one more is coming with with bilethorn nerf.
making total OF 6 DUALLIST FLURRY NERFS hehehee
but we should be gratefull coz they canceled nerf number 7 which was in a preview.
yeah since the nerf no one uses deadly momentum any more its 2% dmg boost meh.....
**** is that all it is?
yup even the best pve trs dont use that feat
The bilethorn change isn't a nerf, it's a fix. The enchant double proccing was a bug and everyone knew it. Some chose to exploit, others did not. Now that it's getting fixed is why you have so many trying to unload bilethorn enchants on trade and who will most likely be stuck with it since everyone now knows it's fixed as well.
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
It's not a nerf.
Yes, it's a fix.
But it wasn't an exploit to use Bilethorn either.
Not when there wasn't a viable choice to rival it. Unlike, say, Roar-- used and abused because it's the best of good encounters. DF was the ONLY good reliable at-will that scales with most players' average skill level.
In comparison, right now Whirlwind of Blades is bugged and ignores DR, but using it does not mean exploiting it. All other dailies' base damage is now a joke. The bug actually offsets its weakness. Doesn't mean you have to take it for granted and cry WHY NERF when it eventually gets fixed.
but at least it's been fixed...
now we just have to wait till mod 5 for the devs to fix the WHOLE CLASS.
arent you the same guy who was claiming on base of one poll one and a half year ago that tr is most popular class.
do u know that in a poll from last week tr ended up last from 7 classes
and u still have the nerv to talk to me loooooooooooooooooooooooool
you realy hate tr dont you looool
you get trickstered and look stupid even on forum
I think the problem for some players is that in order to really maximize your STDPS you need a focused build and aggressive playstyle; this doesn't necessarily cater to the trickster/stealth-heavy elements of the class. Although I prefer my melee beatstick game, the sneaky, tactical/control build should be more viable in dungeons. Of course, an overall damage buff would have benefits for us Executioners, too.
Lashing Blade damage can be underwhelming at the low end, but when conditions are right it can be huge. In the past two weeks I've had non-crits deal as little as 7.5K and big crits on debuffed targets deal as much as 130K (~75K base damage).