It may only if you have a DC, but we will have far less guard and DR.
Far less guard and DR? I don't think so, there's nothing that gives "far more block and DR" in high end Protector or Tactician Line. In fact I respecced to Tactician on the Preview Shard, but I may consider going Conqueror (once again), if these changes go through. Protector is becoming less and less appealing with these changes.
And considering the last statements from the devs about the interaction of DC healing with GF tanks and how the queue system works it's safe to assume that you're supposed to have a DC in your party in dungeon delves, so I'd say that point is moot.
So overall the capstone is giving a potential for 32%+ damage - which based on my ROUGH math, would be the same as about 12k-13k power on the current capstone (32% damage bonus @ about 200 power per 1% damage bonus = 6400 BONUS power needed = 6400 BASE power needed for 12.8k power boosted through capstone)
Actually you only need about 10700 power to get a damage bonus of +64%. If you have more power you'll lose damage. But with the trade-off between damage and block gone Conqueror GFs will benefit - at least against those opponents where blocking is needed to save your life.
I see one problem: what if i don't be struck? I will deal less dmg than now because i lost half of my current power. In my opinion better will be if you get:
When you damaging a foe in combat you gain Reckless Attacker. Reckless Attacker increases your damage by 5% and Critical chance by 2%. Reckless Attacker lasts 10 seconds and stacks up to 5 times.
Second thing is the new Block. I think this my by good but you must add one thing: reduce stamina only when block is blocking something (dmg, cc, aoe) because know i lose all my stamina without any effect and i for example can't fight any more with TR in cloud from Smoke Bomb.
I agree wit nuitrari our Tab is the worst and is useless most of time.
This Mark bonus will be stacks with Armor Penetration or instead and I can resign with my all Armor Penetration right now?
You have to think of all types of fights because i also already thought it would be better if reckless attacker stacked when you hit instead but what about in pvp if you was fighting a HR or TR ? The amount of hits you get in arent much because of there dodging and sneaking around BUT they hit you lots with either the hr constant arrows or the TR constant knifes so we would always have a decent amount of stacks on and the only time we wont have stacks in any fight is when we start our first few hits but after that we will have the dmg boost.
Now this no mater because if you fight with good HR or TR you don't hit him. So even you have a 5 stacks of Reckless Attacker you can't use this.
I have one situation fight against HR on Icewind Dale. I have full profound preserver armour and Radiant enchantment rank 7 or 9 (in def slots), i don't remember exactly, and he kill me with couple second. I can't hit him even once.
I'm a PvE player and my opinion base on playing PvE. It is impossible to balance the classes in PvE and PvP at the same time. New mechanics for Reckless Attacker is nerf for PvE dmg GF.
Now this no mater because if you fight with good HR or TR you don't hit him. So even you have a 5 stacks of Reckless Attacker you can't use this.
I have one situation fight against HR on Icewind Dale. I have full profound preserver armour and Radiant enchantment rank 7 or 9 (in def slots), i don't remember exactly, and he kill me with couple second. I can't hit him even once.
I'm a PvE player and my opinion base on playing PvE. It is impossible to balance the classes in PvE and PvP at the same time. New mechanics for Reckless Attacker is nerf for PvE dmg GF.
Well I do fine against perma rogues and HR, HR can be very OP sure but i still win most 1v1 against them its just about timing, if you get close enough they will dodge so be ready with a prone. Also rogues only really get heavy dmg from DF and other close abilities so you can catch them out of stealth or impossible to catch and rip them up.
AS for pve and pvp yes i agree this is more of a pvp buff but im happy since im only a pvp player yet pve you don't really use shield much so you would always have double power with the current reckless attacker but at least now you get more crit too, lets just see how it works, it might be really good.
bonus is nice but balancing class base on PvP is in my opinion very bad idea. A lot of people play only PvE and for them that will be another nerf, becaus this will be work only when you will go without control class like CW. My proposal will be work on PvE and some part PvP: against GWF, DC, GF, probably on CW and TR also. With this is only one problem: HR. Proposal from Dev will be work only on PvP or on PvE if you go with fresh team, in epic team mobs don't hit you enough times, so again you will be useless.
bonus is nice but balancing class base on PvP is in my opinion very bad idea. A lot of people play only PvE and for them that will be another nerf, becaus this will be work only when you will go without control class like CW. My proposal will be work on PvE and some part PvP: against GWF, DC, GF, probably on CW and TR also. With this is only one problem: HR. Proposal from Dev will be work only on PvP or on PvE if you go with fresh team, in epic team mobs don't hit you enough times, so again you will be useless.
Any any part of pve you will be surrounded by mods being hit so the 5 stack should be on 100% of the time in battle, if your a gf you should always be at the front fighting or kiting adds so it will work out well.
I am not sure this will give us a damage boost. Could someone please check the maths?
Current: Let's say at the moment you stack 3.2k power. So 3.2k extra power (most of the time). Seem to remember hearing somewhere that with the new power reword we get about 1% extra damage per 160 power. 3200 / 160 = 20% extra damage.
New: 5% extra damage and 2% crit per hit. stacking 5 times. So this would be 25% extra damage and 10% crit, but only if you get hit 5 times within 10 secs. Those 5 hits don't happen instantly so lets say after second or two. in those 2 secs you will have used your first rotation of encounters, so they dont benefit, and then you need to wait till they have refresh by which time your 10 secs are finished.
Also what happens after the 10 sec ICD? Is this a ICD per stack or is this 10 secs as of first stack? Will all stacks wipe after 10 secs from first stack?
On first viewing, it looks like it is a buff, but then when I thnk about it I am not sure, maybe like for like? But we needed a significant buff, so for me they need to increase those percentages and make sure the ICD is per stack.
It is difficult to really compare properly because of the different mechanics. (How often does our shield go down and by how much? How long before we get the stacks?)
But I am not as enthusiastic as most people, maybe I am wrong.
How about it is the first positive change and ONLY way we'll ever get over 30% crit w/out a rogue. How about you let him upload the fixes, and you test them before you ruin it for everyone who actually plays their GF at a high level.
25% damage + using Block + 10% crit (WAY BETTER THAN) 100% power with full block meter....
Use your freaking heads! - We can finally block and still deal damage! We can crit so much freaking more.
Every time you get hit you get a stack, it lasts 10 seconds and can stack 5x. CLEARLY each stack will have a 10 second timer, otherwise it'd be nearly impossible to get the five stacks and have any uptime in the 10 seconds. I'm sure entirely sure why you think they would make an update that bad lol. Also I feel like his description was pretty good.
How about it is the first positive change and ONLY way we'll ever get over 30% crit w/out a rogue. How about you let him upload the fixes, and you test them before you ruin it for everyone who actually plays their GF at a high level.
25% damage + using Block + 10% crit (WAY BETTER THAN) 100% power with full block meter....
Use your freaking heads! - We can finally block and still deal damage! We can crit so much freaking more.
Every time you get hit you get a stack, it lasts 10 seconds and can stack 5x. CLEARLY each stack will have a 10 second timer, otherwise it'd be nearly impossible to get the five stacks and have any uptime in the 10 seconds. I'm sure entirely sure why you think they would make an update that bad lol. Also I feel like his description was pretty good.
That would be perfect if we had the ability to deal this dmg while we are able to sustain our block as much as we can as long we ain't taking dmg .So in few words if this is applied on the old block mech will "SKYROCKET" Gfs.Timer on block will achieve the opposite results.I myself find fond the Tactician Path and not the Conqueror so i would appreciate if i had that dmg boost w/o losing my block since i am not a Conq.
To all the Gfs :i tested RE and your numbers and suggestions:
The new RE capstone is a clear nerf!!!
Let me explain:
I have 9100 power.Let's take a typical pvp power;Griffon's Wrath.My tooltip says 4600-5100 damage.
I went to sharandar and fell over.My power got to 4050.As it will be with the new RE capstone.
My Griffon's tooltip? 3300-3900 damage.
If we assume,if we take the optimal situation about the nre RE capstone we will get 25% damage boost.
The maths:
25% x 3900= 4875. That is a clear reduction to 5100 damage i do now.
it is feakin obvious to any descent GF that the new RE will lack damage compared to live.
How you posted all this complicated formula and ended up in the conclusion that we will have a boost is beyond me.
Keep it simple:Do the test yourselfs.See your damage tooltip with full meter.Now fell over to a cliff and die.Your GN goes to zero ,so you have your original power.Now add to your damage tooltip an 25% increase;
Ban!!You have less.Congrats plain and naive GFs you were outsmarted again by your sworn enemies the GWfs and their attorney Ayroux... lol
Actually you only need about 10700 power to get a damage bonus of +64%. If you have more power you'll lose damage. But with the trade-off between damage and block gone Conqueror GFs will benefit - at least against those opponents where blocking is needed to save your life.
Yes my math, as I said, was ROUGH math lol. I forgot the exact number of power = 1% dmg and assumed 200, its 160.
So yes about 10,700 power = 32% dmg buff.
25% dmg + 10% crit (at 75 severity) means this is a 32.5% damage buff (higher if you have a vorpal btw).
To the guy posting his "math" above, many things can factor into your "tooltip" damage so I wouldnt just use your current tooltip, go on PTR take that tooltip and *25%, different buffs add in at different "levels" of multiplication. @ 9100 power im guessing your +damage in your character sheet is +54%?
So on the PTR it should say +27% without Conq Capstone. Which means with the +25% damage - your tooltip will show 2% LESS damage - but you havnt factored in Crit at all... Which is pretty big, especially for PVE agro.
Also, currently if you block at all you lose damage, now you wont lose the damage... Ontop of that you can NOW stack other stats instead of power stacking (like more crit/ARP/recovery or even defensive stats) which is a BIG win as I see it - ESPECIALLY for PVP where things like ARP are king, or HP/regen. It offers more gear choice.
I can tell you on an optimized PVP GF youll end up with around 6-7k power (with current capstone) because youll want good HP/regen/deflect/arp too. I already mentioned MY GF is around 6200 Power I think which was about an 18% damage boost from the capstone. So this is a BIG damage buff.
I am HOPING in mod 4 they have new challenging PVE content that not only requires a tank, but also requires the tank to BLOCK in which this will be a VERY noticeable benefit.
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stagger38Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 28Arc User
To all the Gfs :i tested RE and your numbers and suggestions:
The new RE capstone is a clear nerf!!!
Let me explain:
I have 9100 power.Let's take a typical pvp power;Griffon's Wrath.My tooltip says 4600-5100 damage.
I went to sharandar and fell over.My power got to 4050.As it will be with the new RE capstone.
My Griffon's tooltip? 3300-3900 damage.
If we assume,if we take the optimal situation about the nre RE capstone we will get 25% damage boost.
The maths:
25% x 3900= 4875. That is a clear reduction to 5100 damage i do now.
-snip-
You're forgetting the 10% bonus to crit chance. Here's the numbers for several different crit% and crit severity. I'll assume your damage numbers are correct.
^^^
"25% dmg + 10% crit (at 75 severity) means this is a 32.5% damage buff" ??????????????
Ayroux what's next?
10 oranges + 10 apples (at mature season just before harvest) means these are 18 oranges~!!! lol.....
"As you can see this is ONLY a buff to perfect vorpal enchant"
....Which use currently the 0.000000000000001% of Gf population.Every Gf i know runs greater plaguefire,greater/perfect bronzewood ,some run lifedrinker.Vorpal? only the r9 /10 guys from pvp guilds.Which are the 0.00000000000000000001% of general population.
So according to your logic if this only a buff to a perfect vorpal..that's means to every other weapon enchant is just a nerf.Thanx! That we agree.
And to get more serious:Adding damage and crit chance and then result in more damage is flawed logic.We do not know the exact damage formulas only the devs know.10% is just a chance a roll.You might crit,you might not.You cannot take crit chance for granted damage.
Critical CHANCE is just a chance.While now your damage is quaranteed.
And even to have the extra critical you have to get hit 5 times .Does the capstone refresh?Nah.We do not know yet.
From the things we know yet the new RE capstone is a 2-10% damage nerf to the dps branch of GFs.
All rest are just assamptions and wild calculations.
But you're assuming 5 charges are on ? That's another requirement. I'm not sure it's easier, and not certain we'll be able to keep it at 5 most of the time.
This needs testing, but I'm not thinking it will be a boost in the end. I hope it won't be another nerf in disguise ...
Olaf, freelance guardian fighter.
Enorla, Oh so devoted cleric.
You guys keep doing math and stuff and whatnot. I'm gonna hit people on test and I'll let you know.
And just a wake up call. Pretty much all Crush does, is sit at a computer running game math based simulations. I'm pretty sure if he says it's a DPS buff.... It is.
When it comes to mechanic stuff like the block, or how a feat applies, and situation based things, we can argue/discuss. When it comes to raw game math we simply do not have the tools needed to predict. We can TEST on live, and then report actual recorded numbers but I do not think any of the above speculation is even remotely relevant or helpful in any way.
Its always given 8% -DR to the target thus equals MORE than 8% dmg boost actually and yes for ALL party members, but NOW it also adds combat advantage damage - which it didnt before, and NOW also increases GFs damage by 20% instead of 8%.
Correct. Initially I posted incorrect information regarding this.
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stagger38Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 28Arc User
You guys keep doing math and stuff and whatnot. I'm gonna hit people on test and I'll let you know.
And just a wake up call. Pretty much all Crush does, is sit at a computer running game math based simulations. I'm pretty sure if he says it's a DPS buff.... It is.
When it comes to mechanic stuff like the block, or how a feat applies, and situation based things, we can argue/discuss. When it comes to raw game math we simply do not have the tools needed to predict. We can TEST on live, and then report actual recorded numbers but I do not think any of the above speculation is even remotely relevant or helpful in any way.
Regardless, we will know soon.
But that's dull and boring. Why not argue with people on the internet instead of wasting your time waiting :P
As far as it being a buff or not, looks like a buff simply because it no longer depends on stamina.
Still, I'd love to see some focus on something other than conqueror feats. That'd be nice. Maybe when the stamina change is made. Protector feats need sum luvin too.
My understanding is that DR is mitigated by ArPen. So if a mob has 12% DR, and your ArPen is 14%, you do full damage, but you do not do any additional damage. So if your ArPen is 24% and you are attacking a dungeon boss with 24% DR, you do full damage to it. That a GF lowers its DR by 8% does nothing if you already have enough ArPen to overcome the DR.
Now if the GF instead lowered the monster's defenses, then that would stack with ArPen and provide everyone with a damage increase. Like the debuff from the High Vizier and High Prophet sets. But this is specifically stating Damage Resist, so from what I know, it will not increase everyone's damage. It will only increase the damage of people whose ArPen is lower than the monster's DR, mitigating up to 8% DR.
From my understanding, this will mean the GF does not have to stack ArPen. With their inate Dex bonus plus the mark, they can overcome the 24% maximum PvE DR of a dungeon boss.
Generally, anything that is considered a debuff makes the enemy's DR go into the negative (you do bonus damage). If I remember correctly, Mark is a debuff so after ArP applies and the target has 0% DR, they now have -8% DR.
The thing is pretty clear to the majority of the conq Gfs.Right now we have a granted damage while our guard meter is full.If we take into consideration the fast speed of its regenaration and our learned and accustomed game play....Most of the Gfs are perfectly able to keep the GM full in combat against all classes except GWFs/Trs.Even at that time 50% of our time the GM is full.So we are doing full damage.
With the new RE capstone we do less damage for granted.The compensation is :we do roughly 25% more damge if we get hit 10 times.However we do not know yet if and how these stacks,stack.
And second we gain with the same way a 10% more critical chance.As i said critical chance is just a CHANCE.Transmuting critcal chance to guaranteed damage is a risky hypothesis.
^^
Too many requirements for me.Get hit 10 times keep stacks up,then you must have already high critical chance in order the extra 10% to be viable and to crit....
While now we just have quarantedd damage.
Hell,if that was indeed a clear buff we should'nt had this conversation already.
"i l test in and i ll see " does not seem clear dps increase for me.rather something nefarious and hypothetical that it might work
.So after all our cries and woes we get something that might work .And even if,we get a 5-7% more damage??? lol!!!!!!!!!!!
Generally, anything that is considered a debuff makes the enemy's DR go into the negative (you do bonus damage). If I remember correctly, Mark is a debuff so after ArP applies and the target has 0% DR, they now have -8% DR.
I was incorrect in my understanding. The tooltips for feats are not accurate in their syntax.
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l3g10nna1reMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 372Arc User
It does give the Guardian Fighter Combat Advantage as well. More precisely it actually causes the target to have Combat Disadvantage, which means everyone gets the benefit of Combat Advantage on them.
Additionally we have identified a bug in the block math that is causing it to behave improperly on preview. Currently we have a resistance cap that is clamped to 80% damage resistance, and the way block adds increased damage resistance is supposed to work after the resistance that is affected by this cap, but it is currently being clamped at the same time. Effectively what this means is that holding block down on preview puts you at the resistance cap in most cases, but doesn't work as intended as far as high DR values still being worth having. While we would like to fix this immediately, it will be a week or two before we can get this fix to Preview. In the meantime I would still like if Guardians would try the new block duration and feel of the system overall in dungeon runs (if you are taking too much damage to survive them, this is probably why). If you are not taking too much damage, let us know so we can tweak the new resistance correctly before it heads out to you guys.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Is it coming today to preview for us to test or will it be tomorrow ?
That is not my understanding of the mechanic. There is no negative DR. If DR is pushed into the negative, you get no benefit. If you have 24% ArPen and are attacking a monster with 12% DR, you only do 100% of your damage, there is no additional multiplier.
If a monster's Defense is pushed into the negative, you get a damage bonus. Feats that mention DR apply to your ArPen. Feats that mention Defense, are damage multipliers independent of ArPen when fighting monsters.
Feat's that mention Defense lower the Defense of player characters in PvP. But since Defense stat is non-linear, it usually does not benefit as much as you would think.
Just tested it. I used cleave on a dummy (they have 0% DR) a few times, then applied a mark to it. Those are the results (this is on Live). I got a 7.7% damage increase.
Edit: As far as the "negative DR" I mentioned, its just a way of explaining it that's easiest for me. All it means is after ArP reduces the defenses of a target to 0, you can still take it further and deal more damage through debuffs. ArP by itself is an entirely different way to decrease defenses and it is applied before anything else.
If our current RE capstone stays in mod 4..and the Unstoppable nerfs to GWF destroyers and damage to Sents...we would be able to solo fight them and win them 80% of the time.
Medium-high geared ranked Gfs can already with LS/GW/AoD and terrifying Impact daily to kill lesser Dstros and stall high geared ones.
With the new 20% DR mark and their unstop only at 10% plus DR we would literally cut them like butter.
And what we see?GF damage to get a nerf so to keep us in line(behind thier beloved GWF toons) for ever.That is the reality guys.
I am speaking to the majority of the courageous Gfs outthere.Don't listen some GWfs in disguise or some Gfs that run only with premades and have a spesific role to play in the batlefield.
Most Gfs that pug and are dps speced will see a nerf plain and simple.Cause otherwise in mod 4 we would had our revenge against the manga FFIX class
In pvp where burst damage is king the requirement to get hit 10 times will not be convenient.Example the beggining of the match and the fight in mid.Now we can charge the enemy GWf that fight our GWf and pummel him with 100% guard meter/damage.In future?Not so.
As for pve?Who experienced Gf conq blocks anyway?
This is kind of how every class is though. How many TR's run 1 path, how many GWF's run 1 path, how many CW's run 1 path, how many HR's run 1 path (they are a little different since they are 10x better than every other class in pvp)
That is not my understanding of the mechanic. There is no negative DR. If DR is pushed into the negative, you get no benefit. If you have 24% ArPen and are attacking a monster with 12% DR, you only do 100% of your damage, there is no additional multiplier.
If a monster's Defense is pushed into the negative, you get a damage bonus. Feats that mention DR apply to your ArPen. Feats that mention Defense, are damage multipliers independent of ArPen when fighting monsters.
Feat's that mention Defense lower the Defense of player characters in PvP. But since Defense stat is non-linear, it usually does not benefit as much as you would think.
How DR and other 'defense remove feats' work:
DR 1 = DR(originally Damage Resistance of the target) + AoE DR OR DoT DR AND/OR other sources of DR(feats and such)
DR 2 = DR 1 - ArP
If ArP >= DR 1, DR 2 = 0%
else above the if.
Damage = Skill*DamageBuff*(1-DR 2+DRDebuff)*0,5^(isDeflect)*CritSeverity^(isCrit)
Mark, Tide of Iron and many other things give -DR to the target AFTER the ArP is factored in their own DR. Many feats/weapon enchantment say it reduce def with x%/x, but this is only a TOOLTIP. This would apply to YOU if YOU apply it on yourself! -See the Restoring Strike Crit bug. On other targets it have a fix amount of -DR. This many don't understand or simply want to change her mind in such a thing. Best example is the dummies. How can have a dummy with 0 defense get into negative DR with a -% defense debuff? 0 Defense *-1.1 = 0 Defense...
To the Reckless Attacker Capstone:
Sorry, all your math is simple false. You forget to factor ALL components in!
Correct math is:
Assuming 100 hits with 100 Damage each:
100y = (1+a+b)*(100-x-e) + (x+e)*d*(1+a+b)
y Simple the number we want to get out of the 100 hits.
a = damage buff alone with Powerstat
b = damage buff (you can switch it with +100% Power capstone or the +25% damage Capstone)
x = Crit change
e = additional Crit chance through Capstone
d = Crit Severity
So with the new Capstone some 'run throughs':
x = 0%, d = 75%
100y = 13438
x = 10%
100y = 14375
x = 20%
100y = 15313
x = 30%
100y = 16250
x = 40%
100y = 17188
x = 50%
100y = 18125
You forget, that every enchantment, that give -DR on the target, affect both, crits and Noncrits! So they are viable. The Vorpal only increase the damage on crits.
So with the math going on:
With over 40% base damage buff(from POWER), the old capstone is better!
Before this 40%(to be more exact: 38%+) the new one is better! Now go and make the math how many is this:(i use 170 for 1% increase) 170*38% = 6460 power.
Additionall -DR and especially more Crit+Crit Severity factor the needed power even higher for the break, that the old capstone is better!
The thing is pretty clear to the majority of the conq Gfs.Right now we have a granted damage while our guard meter is full.If we take into consideration the fast speed of its regenaration and our learned and accustomed game play....Most of the Gfs are perfectly able to keep the GM full in combat against all classes except GWFs/Trs.Even at that time 50% of our time the GM is full.So we are doing full damage.
With the new RE capstone we do less damage for granted.The compensation is :we do roughly 25% more damge if we get hit 10 times.However we do not know yet if and how these stacks,stack.
And second we gain with the same way a 10% more critical chance.As i said critical chance is just a CHANCE.Transmuting critcal chance to guaranteed damage is a risky hypothesis.
^^
Too many requirements for me.Get hit 10 times keep stacks up,then you must have already high critical chance in order the extra 10% to be viable and to crit....
While now we just have quarantedd damage.
Hell,if that was indeed a clear buff we should'nt had this conversation already.
"i l test in and i ll see " does not seem clear dps increase for me.rather something nefarious and hypothetical that it might work
.So after all our cries and woes we get something that might work .And even if,we get a 5-7% more damage??? lol!!!!!!!!!!!
Im starting to wonder if you dont read the notes.
Its a 5 stack, so you dont need to get hit 10 times... You get hit 5 times, which again I suggested IF it works like the old stalwart set did, almost any hit will proc this. Think of a CW hitting you with ICY rays, youll have 5 stacks in less than a second....
Also there is some wrong math posted above, ALL classes have BASE severity of 75%. So 1% crit chance is a DPS boost of .75%. Adding a perfect vorpal increases that by 125% so now 1% crit = 1.25% DPS boost.
I dont know why it was run at 50% severity unless your trying to compensate in PVP or something with reduced critical damage? That isnt determined at the severity level but final numbers which then actually turns .75% severity into 40% severity.
At 40% severity this 10% is a 4% damage boost which puts this at 29% for the capstone for PVP purposes... Which = 6240 power which means you would need to have 12,480 Equiv POWER currently for it to be the same DPS boost.
Yes crit is just a crit chance, but its still a DPS boost and to ignore that is just silly.
With over 40% base damage buff(from POWER), the old capstone is better!
Before this 40%(to be more exact: 38%+) the new one is better! Now go and make the math how many is this:(i use 170 for 1% increase) 170*38% = 6460 power.
Additionall -DR and especially more Crit+Crit Severity factor the needed power even higher for the break, that the old capstone is better!
That's from me!
Yes this is right. So 6460 power is the BASE needed which means your sitting at (LIVE) 12,920 Power to be the "break point". People keep forgetting this is the BONUS power needed to be the same. The tooltip you see from power, only HALF that it from the capstone. So for players with 9-10k Power, their tooltip damage with 5 stacks will be roughly the same, and the crit % is where you will squeeze ahead in DPS. Also the HUGE benefit of not having this decrease when you block.
So for MOST pvp GFs in the 6k power range - from stacking more ARP/HP etc, this will be about TWICE as good as the current capstone and easily 3x more when you factor in the ability to block and still maintain dmg boost.
Its a 5 stack, so you dont need to get hit 10 times... You get hit 5 times, which again I suggested IF it works like the old stalwart set did, almost any hit will proc this. Think of a CW hitting you with ICY rays, youll have 5 stacks in less than a second....
Also there is some wrong math posted above, ALL classes have BASE severity of 75%. So 1% crit chance is a DPS boost of .75%. Adding a perfect vorpal increases that by 125% so now 1% crit = 1.25% DPS boost.
I dont know why it was run at 50% severity unless your trying to compensate in PVP or something with reduced critical damage? That isnt determined at the severity level but final numbers which then actually turns .75% severity into 40% severity.
At 40% severity this 10% is a 4% damage boost which puts this at 29% for the capstone for PVP purposes... Which = 6240 power which means you would need to have 12,480 Equiv POWER currently for it to be the same DPS boost.
Yes crit is just a crit chance, but its still a DPS boost and to ignore that is just silly.
Say what 'false' is with the math. I think you forget, that the +% Damage count for the crit hit too. So the crit hit is not 175% of the origin hit, while the origin hit is 100% skill, no it's 100% skill + % Damage through Power. And second: 40% Severity doesn't exist. You write nonsense in your text while blaming yourself?! Critical Severity = Damage on Crit hit. Crit Chance = How many hits of 100 crit.
And the 'run through' was only a simple overview how it work with x% Crit chance. For you, the first number only metter. It show that with 75% Crit Severity and 0% Crit chance on your char(which is simple impossible due 5% base crit chance + possible feat/gear crit chance) you have from the start +34.38% damage(13438/100-100).
Comments
Far less guard and DR? I don't think so, there's nothing that gives "far more block and DR" in high end Protector or Tactician Line. In fact I respecced to Tactician on the Preview Shard, but I may consider going Conqueror (once again), if these changes go through. Protector is becoming less and less appealing with these changes.
And considering the last statements from the devs about the interaction of DC healing with GF tanks and how the queue system works it's safe to assume that you're supposed to have a DC in your party in dungeon delves, so I'd say that point is moot.
Actually you only need about 10700 power to get a damage bonus of +64%. If you have more power you'll lose damage. But with the trade-off between damage and block gone Conqueror GFs will benefit - at least against those opponents where blocking is needed to save your life.
You have to think of all types of fights because i also already thought it would be better if reckless attacker stacked when you hit instead but what about in pvp if you was fighting a HR or TR ? The amount of hits you get in arent much because of there dodging and sneaking around BUT they hit you lots with either the hr constant arrows or the TR constant knifes so we would always have a decent amount of stacks on and the only time we wont have stacks in any fight is when we start our first few hits but after that we will have the dmg boost.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I have one situation fight against HR on Icewind Dale. I have full profound preserver armour and Radiant enchantment rank 7 or 9 (in def slots), i don't remember exactly, and he kill me with couple second. I can't hit him even once.
I'm a PvE player and my opinion base on playing PvE. It is impossible to balance the classes in PvE and PvP at the same time. New mechanics for Reckless Attacker is nerf for PvE dmg GF.
Well I do fine against perma rogues and HR, HR can be very OP sure but i still win most 1v1 against them its just about timing, if you get close enough they will dodge so be ready with a prone. Also rogues only really get heavy dmg from DF and other close abilities so you can catch them out of stealth or impossible to catch and rip them up.
AS for pve and pvp yes i agree this is more of a pvp buff but im happy since im only a pvp player yet pve you don't really use shield much so you would always have double power with the current reckless attacker but at least now you get more crit too, lets just see how it works, it might be really good.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
bonus is nice but balancing class base on PvP is in my opinion very bad idea. A lot of people play only PvE and for them that will be another nerf, becaus this will be work only when you will go without control class like CW. My proposal will be work on PvE and some part PvP: against GWF, DC, GF, probably on CW and TR also. With this is only one problem: HR. Proposal from Dev will be work only on PvP or on PvE if you go with fresh team, in epic team mobs don't hit you enough times, so again you will be useless.
Any any part of pve you will be surrounded by mods being hit so the 5 stack should be on 100% of the time in battle, if your a gf you should always be at the front fighting or kiting adds so it will work out well.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
How about it is the first positive change and ONLY way we'll ever get over 30% crit w/out a rogue. How about you let him upload the fixes, and you test them before you ruin it for everyone who actually plays their GF at a high level.
25% damage + using Block + 10% crit (WAY BETTER THAN) 100% power with full block meter....
Use your freaking heads! - We can finally block and still deal damage! We can crit so much freaking more.
Every time you get hit you get a stack, it lasts 10 seconds and can stack 5x. CLEARLY each stack will have a 10 second timer, otherwise it'd be nearly impossible to get the five stacks and have any uptime in the 10 seconds. I'm sure entirely sure why you think they would make an update that bad lol. Also I feel like his description was pretty good.
That would be perfect if we had the ability to deal this dmg while we are able to sustain our block as much as we can as long we ain't taking dmg .So in few words if this is applied on the old block mech will "SKYROCKET" Gfs.Timer on block will achieve the opposite results.I myself find fond the Tactician Path and not the Conqueror so i would appreciate if i had that dmg boost w/o losing my block since i am not a Conq.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
The new RE capstone is a clear nerf!!!
Let me explain:
I have 9100 power.Let's take a typical pvp power;Griffon's Wrath.My tooltip says 4600-5100 damage.
I went to sharandar and fell over.My power got to 4050.As it will be with the new RE capstone.
My Griffon's tooltip? 3300-3900 damage.
If we assume,if we take the optimal situation about the nre RE capstone we will get 25% damage boost.
The maths:
25% x 3900= 4875. That is a clear reduction to 5100 damage i do now.
it is feakin obvious to any descent GF that the new RE will lack damage compared to live.
How you posted all this complicated formula and ended up in the conclusion that we will have a boost is beyond me.
Keep it simple:Do the test yourselfs.See your damage tooltip with full meter.Now fell over to a cliff and die.Your GN goes to zero ,so you have your original power.Now add to your damage tooltip an 25% increase;
Ban!!You have less.Congrats plain and naive GFs you were outsmarted again by your sworn enemies the GWfs and their attorney Ayroux... lol
But wait the GWfs don't want that..they want to continue dominate...so let's trick the naive GFs again!!!
THE NEW RE CAPSTONE ON PTR IS A NERF TO CONQS.
Yes my math, as I said, was ROUGH math lol. I forgot the exact number of power = 1% dmg and assumed 200, its 160.
So yes about 10,700 power = 32% dmg buff.
25% dmg + 10% crit (at 75 severity) means this is a 32.5% damage buff (higher if you have a vorpal btw).
To the guy posting his "math" above, many things can factor into your "tooltip" damage so I wouldnt just use your current tooltip, go on PTR take that tooltip and *25%, different buffs add in at different "levels" of multiplication. @ 9100 power im guessing your +damage in your character sheet is +54%?
So on the PTR it should say +27% without Conq Capstone. Which means with the +25% damage - your tooltip will show 2% LESS damage - but you havnt factored in Crit at all... Which is pretty big, especially for PVE agro.
Also, currently if you block at all you lose damage, now you wont lose the damage... Ontop of that you can NOW stack other stats instead of power stacking (like more crit/ARP/recovery or even defensive stats) which is a BIG win as I see it - ESPECIALLY for PVP where things like ARP are king, or HP/regen. It offers more gear choice.
I can tell you on an optimized PVP GF youll end up with around 6-7k power (with current capstone) because youll want good HP/regen/deflect/arp too. I already mentioned MY GF is around 6200 Power I think which was about an 18% damage boost from the capstone. So this is a BIG damage buff.
I am HOPING in mod 4 they have new challenging PVE content that not only requires a tank, but also requires the tank to BLOCK in which this will be a VERY noticeable benefit.
You're forgetting the 10% bonus to crit chance. Here's the numbers for several different crit% and crit severity. I'll assume your damage numbers are correct.
Live, 5100 damage, 50% severity:
0% crit = 5100 damage
10% = 5355
20% = 5610
30% = 5865
40% = 6120
Live, 5100 damage, 75% severity:
0% = 5100
10% = 5482.5
20% = 5865
30% = 6247.5
40% = 6630
Test, 4875 damage, 50% severity, bonus 10% crit chance:
10% = 5118.75
20% = 5362.5
30% = 5606.25
40% = 5950
50% = 6093.75
Test, 4875 damage, 75% severity, bonus 10% crit chance
10% = 5240.63
20% = 5606.25
30% = 5971.88
40% = 6337.5
50% = 6703.13
As you can see, this is only a buff to perfect vorpal, greater only gives 6556.88, less than 6630.
EDIT: Like ayroux says, your numbers may be off, and you're ignoring the added benefit of blocking without consequence.
EDIT 2: Woops, removed the last section. It's back.
"25% dmg + 10% crit (at 75 severity) means this is a 32.5% damage buff" ??????????????
Ayroux what's next?
10 oranges + 10 apples (at mature season just before harvest) means these are 18 oranges~!!! lol.....
"As you can see this is ONLY a buff to perfect vorpal enchant"
....Which use currently the 0.000000000000001% of Gf population.Every Gf i know runs greater plaguefire,greater/perfect bronzewood ,some run lifedrinker.Vorpal? only the r9 /10 guys from pvp guilds.Which are the 0.00000000000000000001% of general population.
So according to your logic if this only a buff to a perfect vorpal..that's means to every other weapon enchant is just a nerf.Thanx! That we agree.
And to get more serious:Adding damage and crit chance and then result in more damage is flawed logic.We do not know the exact damage formulas only the devs know.10% is just a chance a roll.You might crit,you might not.You cannot take crit chance for granted damage.
Critical CHANCE is just a chance.While now your damage is quaranteed.
And even to have the extra critical you have to get hit 5 times .Does the capstone refresh?Nah.We do not know yet.
From the things we know yet the new RE capstone is a 2-10% damage nerf to the dps branch of GFs.
All rest are just assamptions and wild calculations.
This needs testing, but I'm not thinking it will be a boost in the end. I hope it won't be another nerf in disguise ...
Enorla, Oh so devoted cleric.
And just a wake up call. Pretty much all Crush does, is sit at a computer running game math based simulations. I'm pretty sure if he says it's a DPS buff.... It is.
When it comes to mechanic stuff like the block, or how a feat applies, and situation based things, we can argue/discuss. When it comes to raw game math we simply do not have the tools needed to predict. We can TEST on live, and then report actual recorded numbers but I do not think any of the above speculation is even remotely relevant or helpful in any way.
Regardless, we will know soon.
Correct. Initially I posted incorrect information regarding this.
But that's dull and boring. Why not argue with people on the internet instead of wasting your time waiting :P
As far as it being a buff or not, looks like a buff simply because it no longer depends on stamina.
Still, I'd love to see some focus on something other than conqueror feats. That'd be nice. Maybe when the stamina change is made. Protector feats need sum luvin too.
Generally, anything that is considered a debuff makes the enemy's DR go into the negative (you do bonus damage). If I remember correctly, Mark is a debuff so after ArP applies and the target has 0% DR, they now have -8% DR.
With the new RE capstone we do less damage for granted.The compensation is :we do roughly 25% more damge if we get hit 10 times.However we do not know yet if and how these stacks,stack.
And second we gain with the same way a 10% more critical chance.As i said critical chance is just a CHANCE.Transmuting critcal chance to guaranteed damage is a risky hypothesis.
^^
Too many requirements for me.Get hit 10 times keep stacks up,then you must have already high critical chance in order the extra 10% to be viable and to crit....
While now we just have quarantedd damage.
Hell,if that was indeed a clear buff we should'nt had this conversation already.
"i l test in and i ll see " does not seem clear dps increase for me.rather something nefarious and hypothetical that it might work
.So after all our cries and woes we get something that might work .And even if,we get a 5-7% more damage??? lol!!!!!!!!!!!
I was incorrect in my understanding. The tooltips for feats are not accurate in their syntax.
Is it coming today to preview for us to test or will it be tomorrow ?
http://puu.sh/9TLev/c5a4a64f15.jpg
Just tested it. I used cleave on a dummy (they have 0% DR) a few times, then applied a mark to it. Those are the results (this is on Live). I got a 7.7% damage increase.
Edit: As far as the "negative DR" I mentioned, its just a way of explaining it that's easiest for me. All it means is after ArP reduces the defenses of a target to 0, you can still take it further and deal more damage through debuffs. ArP by itself is an entirely different way to decrease defenses and it is applied before anything else.
Medium-high geared ranked Gfs can already with LS/GW/AoD and terrifying Impact daily to kill lesser Dstros and stall high geared ones.
With the new 20% DR mark and their unstop only at 10% plus DR we would literally cut them like butter.
And what we see?GF damage to get a nerf so to keep us in line(behind thier beloved GWF toons) for ever.That is the reality guys.
I am speaking to the majority of the courageous Gfs outthere.Don't listen some GWfs in disguise or some Gfs that run only with premades and have a spesific role to play in the batlefield.
Most Gfs that pug and are dps speced will see a nerf plain and simple.Cause otherwise in mod 4 we would had our revenge against the manga FFIX class
In pvp where burst damage is king the requirement to get hit 10 times will not be convenient.Example the beggining of the match and the fight in mid.Now we can charge the enemy GWf that fight our GWf and pummel him with 100% guard meter/damage.In future?Not so.
As for pve?Who experienced Gf conq blocks anyway?
How DR and other 'defense remove feats' work:
DR 1 = DR(originally Damage Resistance of the target) + AoE DR OR DoT DR AND/OR other sources of DR(feats and such)
DR 2 = DR 1 - ArP
If ArP >= DR 1, DR 2 = 0%
else above the if.
Damage = Skill*DamageBuff*(1-DR 2+DRDebuff)*0,5^(isDeflect)*CritSeverity^(isCrit)
Mark, Tide of Iron and many other things give -DR to the target AFTER the ArP is factored in their own DR. Many feats/weapon enchantment say it reduce def with x%/x, but this is only a TOOLTIP. This would apply to YOU if YOU apply it on yourself! -See the Restoring Strike Crit bug. On other targets it have a fix amount of -DR. This many don't understand or simply want to change her mind in such a thing. Best example is the dummies. How can have a dummy with 0 defense get into negative DR with a -% defense debuff? 0 Defense *-1.1 = 0 Defense...
To the Reckless Attacker Capstone:
Sorry, all your math is simple false. You forget to factor ALL components in!
Correct math is:
Assuming 100 hits with 100 Damage each:
100y = (1+a+b)*(100-x-e) + (x+e)*d*(1+a+b)
y Simple the number we want to get out of the 100 hits.
a = damage buff alone with Powerstat
b = damage buff (you can switch it with +100% Power capstone or the +25% damage Capstone)
x = Crit change
e = additional Crit chance through Capstone
d = Crit Severity
So with the new Capstone some 'run throughs':
x = 0%, d = 75%
100y = 13438
x = 10%
100y = 14375
x = 20%
100y = 15313
x = 30%
100y = 16250
x = 40%
100y = 17188
x = 50%
100y = 18125
You forget, that every enchantment, that give -DR on the target, affect both, crits and Noncrits! So they are viable. The Vorpal only increase the damage on crits.
So with the math going on:
With over 40% base damage buff(from POWER), the old capstone is better!
Before this 40%(to be more exact: 38%+) the new one is better! Now go and make the math how many is this:(i use 170 for 1% increase) 170*38% = 6460 power.
Additionall -DR and especially more Crit+Crit Severity factor the needed power even higher for the break, that the old capstone is better!
That's from me!
Im starting to wonder if you dont read the notes.
Its a 5 stack, so you dont need to get hit 10 times... You get hit 5 times, which again I suggested IF it works like the old stalwart set did, almost any hit will proc this. Think of a CW hitting you with ICY rays, youll have 5 stacks in less than a second....
Also there is some wrong math posted above, ALL classes have BASE severity of 75%. So 1% crit chance is a DPS boost of .75%. Adding a perfect vorpal increases that by 125% so now 1% crit = 1.25% DPS boost.
I dont know why it was run at 50% severity unless your trying to compensate in PVP or something with reduced critical damage? That isnt determined at the severity level but final numbers which then actually turns .75% severity into 40% severity.
At 40% severity this 10% is a 4% damage boost which puts this at 29% for the capstone for PVP purposes... Which = 6240 power which means you would need to have 12,480 Equiv POWER currently for it to be the same DPS boost.
Yes crit is just a crit chance, but its still a DPS boost and to ignore that is just silly.
Yes this is right. So 6460 power is the BASE needed which means your sitting at (LIVE) 12,920 Power to be the "break point". People keep forgetting this is the BONUS power needed to be the same. The tooltip you see from power, only HALF that it from the capstone. So for players with 9-10k Power, their tooltip damage with 5 stacks will be roughly the same, and the crit % is where you will squeeze ahead in DPS. Also the HUGE benefit of not having this decrease when you block.
So for MOST pvp GFs in the 6k power range - from stacking more ARP/HP etc, this will be about TWICE as good as the current capstone and easily 3x more when you factor in the ability to block and still maintain dmg boost.
Say what 'false' is with the math. I think you forget, that the +% Damage count for the crit hit too. So the crit hit is not 175% of the origin hit, while the origin hit is 100% skill, no it's 100% skill + % Damage through Power. And second: 40% Severity doesn't exist. You write nonsense in your text while blaming yourself?! Critical Severity = Damage on Crit hit. Crit Chance = How many hits of 100 crit.
And the 'run through' was only a simple overview how it work with x% Crit chance. For you, the first number only metter. It show that with 75% Crit Severity and 0% Crit chance on your char(which is simple impossible due 5% base crit chance + possible feat/gear crit chance) you have from the start +34.38% damage(13438/100-100).