Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I don't care that much about the Leader Board and the stats padding as pre-mades and queue exploiters go crazy. I do care that solo queuers are subjected to the nonesense of premades with degenerate compositions. This is suppose to be a game and games are supposed to be fun. Pug stomping isn't fun for anyone. The premades may get something out of but it isn't even fun for them.
The queues need to be separate. The Leader Board just makes the problem worse because there is even more pressure to form degenerate groups and pug stomp now.
Hmm i am a real **** here sorry but what are premades and pugs ?
premade is a group that was pre-formed and then queued up. Usually a group of guild members or friends. Sometimes just people who meet (maybe as a pug) who are good and they form a team for a few matches.
Pug, is a pick-up group, a group of random single queued people thrown together.
Some prefer Premade PvP, some prefer Pug PvP
Some like it hot, some like it cold, some like it in the pot nine days old!
Its too early for the leaderboards to stabilize. What did you expect? Ranking happens over a few days?
How long since the implementation? Not even a week.
It needs at least a month or two, until enough games have been played throughout most of the players, so the ranking more or less begins to reflect individual player's skill level.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Its too early for the leaderboards to stabilize. What did you expect? Ranking happens over a few days?
How long since the implementation? Not even a week.
It needs at least a month or two, until enough games have been played throughout most of the players, so the ranking more or less begins to reflect individual player's skill level.
Basically it will take as long as it took for ELO to roughly 'stabilise' after introduction. A month or two sounds about right. At the moment I can jump tens of pages at the end of each fight.
Its too early for the leaderboards to stabilize. What did you expect? Ranking happens over a few days?
How long since the implementation? Not even a week.
It needs at least a month or two, until enough games have been played throughout most of the players, so the ranking more or less begins to reflect individual player's skill level.
I may be wrong, but leaderboards is just total points you earned through PvP games(arena domination, GG and IWD PvP). So, there is no ELO included. Basically, anyone who plays alot wins this.
I may be wrong, but leaderboards is just total points you earned through PvP games(arena domination, GG and IWD PvP). So, there is no ELO included. Basically, anyone who plays alot wins this.
If it is total points, that's pretty unfair to Luskans.
It is gotten to the point where I wait around in /g for a full five man premade or i don't bother queuing any more. Not much joy facing Three or more gwfs on these degenerate premades. PWE you really need to fix this it has taken all the joy out of playing for many of us.
honestly, i don't think the leader boards are meant to do anything other than to keep a running tally. some people want to know what their stats are, how many matches they've been in, won and lost, and total kills. granted it doesn't include all your past data but... it was recently added so... for this point on, here is your information. i don't think this was done to add an additional competitive element to pvp because it's already competitive. that's like painting the kettle black. it's already black.
as for a complete pvp focused tournament structure within neverwinter, i do not see that happening if you look at their running catalog. if cryptic were to take neverwinter combat and incorporate it into a pvp-centric title, yeah... maybe. but i think that kind of focus would subtract from this being a dungeons and dragons branded MMO... and that's regardless if you think neverwinter is true D&D or not, the game is licensed through WotC and is an approved D&D title.
honestly, i don't think the leader boards are meant to do anything other than to keep a running tally. some people want to know what their stats are, how many matches they've been in, won and lost, and total kills.
And why would someone make this publicly viewable? It has completely destroyed my PvP (pugging) experience. Not only that. It's toxic for the PvP community. It turns (good) people into rank-addicted morons.
Yes, the leaderboard is completely useless and doesn't say anything about one's performance. The classes are extremely unbalanced.
- DCs and GFs are not reflected at all.
- TRs will always be first. They can boost their ratings the fastest. Pug queue, go to enemy base, keep 3 pugs busy until the team clears everything else. Free win.
- CWs (if they do GG) also have a huge advantage over everyone else when it comes to the number of kills and assists.
- GWFs are somewhere next to the CWs. They don't have the AoE to take down groups of 5+ in seconds in GG, but the higher damage, better CC and enormous survivability give them an advantage. When it's not GG, GWF >> CW.
- Support/CC-based builds are in a huge disadvantage.
All these points don't count in a full Rank 10 meat grinder premade. Unless they meet another full Rank 10 meat grinder premade. Which is pretty unlikely since there aren't many of those. I know only two (maybe three) guilds that are able to run a full BiS group.
honestly, i don't think the leader boards are meant to do anything other than to keep a running tally. some people want to know what their stats are, how many matches they've been in, won and lost, and total kills. granted it doesn't include all your past data but... it was recently added so... for this point on, here is your information. i don't think this was done to add an additional competitive element to pvp because it's already competitive. that's like painting the kettle black. it's already black.
as for a complete pvp focused tournament structure within neverwinter, i do not see that happening if you look at their running catalog. if cryptic were to take neverwinter combat and incorporate it into a pvp-centric title, yeah... maybe. but i think that kind of focus would subtract from this being a dungeons and dragons branded MMO... and that's regardless if you think neverwinter is true D&D or not, the game is licensed through WotC and is an approved D&D title.
I think most people (whether they openly deny it to themselves or others) take this leaderboard to heart and let it somewhat affect their evaluation of themselves. This is why we are seeing these emotional reactions/comments towards this.
Its natural for people to feel this way. You put up a stat board for people to see with their KDR, win/loss record and their numerical ranking.
I like everything but the standings to be honest. I really like the feature as it is nice quick way to see how I am doing in pvp. The standing though, make pvp go from competitive to vicious. You struggle to keep within the first ten pages and tend to get even more mad when your pug team is bad. Once you know your going to lose and you team is horrible, there is a huge incentive to just afk at the spawn because you think that the loss will be bad enough but you dont want the match to also negatively affect your kill/death ratio. It needs to be a ladder/ranked system or it needs to go.
as for a complete pvp focused tournament structure within neverwinter, i do not see that happening if you look at their running catalog. if cryptic were to take neverwinter combat and incorporate it into a pvp-centric title, yeah... maybe. but i think that kind of focus would subtract from this being a dungeons and dragons branded MMO... and that's regardless if you think neverwinter is true D&D or not, the game is licensed through WotC and is an approved D&D title.
If not a tourney than maybe a ladder? A simple ladder. It works like this:
Ranks 1-10,000 (or however many) with the higher numbers being the top of the ladder and the lower numbers being the bottom. When you win a match against a higher ranked player your rank improves to half-way between your former rank and his. So if you are rank 100 and he is rank 1 and you beat him, you go to rank 50. If you lose against a lower rank your own rank does not go down unless the person you lost to was on the rung directly beneath you. In that case you move down one rung and he moves up one rung. Everyone new starts at the bottom of the ladder.
It is such a really simple system and doesnt require organized tourneys and elimination rounds and all of that. It makes losses so much more bearable because when you lose you don't really lose anything unless you are top 10 or top 100 and then you lose your spot and possibly get bumped out of those "Platinum" and "Gold" brackets.
Seems so easy and really would be greatly enjoyed by the pvp community imo. It would be a real measure of the skill and commitment of the players. I also think it would cause a huge increase in what pvp players spend. People would be maxing out their credit cards to get to that top spot and be recognized as the absolute top pvp player in the game.
Idealy we would have ranked matches and unranked matches, and a person could q for either.
Win 1000 to 100 or less. Other team gave up. Everyone on my team had 4-5 kills and no deaths. Under 3000 pts or so. One player on my team who is #3 on the leader boards didn't move, the rest of us dropped several pages back. For a win.
Changed play style. We cap mid and killed the other team. Back cap our home point, wait for them to cap theirs, and mount up to ride past them to go cap their point. Enemy caps mid. We cap their home then go recap mid while enemy takes our pt. then go to our pt, kill them all on the way, cap our point and repeat. 7-9k pt matches. We hold or advance our leader board placement doing this. The other team that would have been taken 1000-100 with 300 pts or less each, get 1000-400 loss, with 2-3k points on the board.
So basically you have to trade caps and not stomp people to advance. That is for premades vs bad premades or pugs. Solid premades vs solid premades is even more of a joke. Because most points are contested for a 40-70min match but rarely change hands, these matches yield about 4k points and obliterate your kill/death ratio (I don't care about this but others do). And win or lose these tough tough matches you lose leader board rank.
The best/easiest way to pad/cheese/cheat the rank system is to have 2 premises queue at the same time, only accept the queue when it simultaneously pops for both parties, then simply trade cap the mind point for 20 mins, yielding god knows how many points (15-20k each???) and then alternating matches where one team 3caps when you decide you've had enough for the win. No kills.
The leader board has too much emphasis on points per match and not wins or k/d.
Right now it yields better results for two very highly geared and skilled players to queue together and just stomp pugs, ignoring the win in favor of pure points from killing, than it does to play pvp at any competitive level. Which makes me sad.
Skill with the ability to enter with premade? exactly how did you think any skill is involved as long as you can face pugs with premades....
I don't get the hate for premades.
About skill and so forth- a good premade will stomp a bad premade as easily as it will stomp a pug. You don't even get a slot in a good premade unless you have shown a degree of skill over multiple matches. The single greatest advantage that any premade has over a pug is that the players are used to playing together and know on a reflexive level, what their teamates are doing and where they are, not to mention being used to a node rotation system based on circumstances and simple straight forward verbal communication.
only thing i think it should ch ange is stop losing ranking by winning...
i know, it makes sense to not climb ranks for beating low ranked people, but lose ranking for this is not cool.
it is like, we are not the ones that choose our enemies most of the time... i was in 3rd in the ranking, and one of the guys ahead of me didn't login all day. i had 10 straight wins (including against one premade that had one of players in the first page)... i dropped 5 positions..., and even dudes that didn't play that day and were behind me passed me. i was like.. really?
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
Yeah I just lost ranking after my last 2 wins. It's not my fault you matched me against a crappy team, why am I being punished?
I have to wonder, if I lost ranking, does that mean the other team gained ranking just for getting beat by a better team? Can I just find the 4 worst players in the rankings and run premades with them and gain points by losing?
Everyone will see an empty Leaderboard and your matchmaking rank will also be reset in Domination.
That kind of shows that the elo ranking and the leaderboard are entirely different things. The assumption that the elo would be the leaderboard meant that a lot of the mystery of the elo would be removed. It would be easy to see the rank of everyone you fought in the past so many matches. But the leaderboard doesnt even have ranks. The best we can do is look at the page number.
So lets have the actual elo as the leaderboard, or at least some form of rank on the leaderboard aside from the page numbers.
Ya none of that makes sense. When you get into the top ten pages (like top 200) it becomes almost impossible to stay there even if you are winning, unless you run exploits.
We're seeing a variety of posts complaining about the leaderboards, but I am curious. Are those posts credible at all? They just seem to assume that a certain method is used to process the rankings, except I don't recall I've heard any actual information on how it is calculated.
If it is not the ELO method, then what is it? Does any one of us have a clue as to what the key factors are?
I'm not sure how we can criticize something that we don't fully understand. Nor do I understand what's bugging the people so badly about the leaderboards that they're bashing something that has only recently been implemented, and would probably need more time to stabilize.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
If it is not the ELO method, then what is it? Does any one of us have a clue as to what the key factors are?
That's actually a non-issue in terms of significance. As long as pugs and premades mix (to name only one issue), a leaderboard has no meaning whatsoever.
We've heard that before, in the end matchmaking stabilized <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> even after 100+ matches. Enough evidence to be skeptical here as well.
We're seeing a variety of posts complaining about the leaderboards, but I am curious. Are those posts credible at all? They just seem to assume that a certain method is used to process the rankings, except I don't recall I've heard any actual information on how it is calculated.
If it is not the ELO method, then what is it? Does any one of us have a clue as to what the key factors are?
I'm not sure how we can criticize something that we don't fully understand. Nor do I understand what's bugging the people so badly about the leaderboards that they're bashing something that has only recently been implemented, and would probably need more time to stabilize.
My point is substantive and legit, I provided a link to an official Neverwinter announcement as well as a quote from that announcement. It is interesting that you would pick the one substantiated thread to air your concerns about the substance of leaderboard complaints.
Comments
The queues need to be separate. The Leader Board just makes the problem worse because there is even more pressure to form degenerate groups and pug stomp now.
premade is a group that was pre-formed and then queued up. Usually a group of guild members or friends. Sometimes just people who meet (maybe as a pug) who are good and they form a team for a few matches.
Pug, is a pick-up group, a group of random single queued people thrown together.
Some prefer Premade PvP, some prefer Pug PvP
Some like it hot, some like it cold, some like it in the pot nine days old!
It's nice to have flavors.
How long since the implementation? Not even a week.
It needs at least a month or two, until enough games have been played throughout most of the players, so the ranking more or less begins to reflect individual player's skill level.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
The only way you could do this is to force Rainbow teams as well.
Just think about it for a minute, it would be even worse than it is now with "premades" stacking classes.
Nice generalization there. Untrue.
Jugger Conq GF
....
If it is total points, that's pretty unfair to Luskans.
Totally agreed.
Ebony (Whisperknife)
as for a complete pvp focused tournament structure within neverwinter, i do not see that happening if you look at their running catalog. if cryptic were to take neverwinter combat and incorporate it into a pvp-centric title, yeah... maybe. but i think that kind of focus would subtract from this being a dungeons and dragons branded MMO... and that's regardless if you think neverwinter is true D&D or not, the game is licensed through WotC and is an approved D&D title.
And why would someone make this publicly viewable? It has completely destroyed my PvP (pugging) experience. Not only that. It's toxic for the PvP community. It turns (good) people into rank-addicted morons.
Yes, the leaderboard is completely useless and doesn't say anything about one's performance. The classes are extremely unbalanced.
- DCs and GFs are not reflected at all.
- TRs will always be first. They can boost their ratings the fastest. Pug queue, go to enemy base, keep 3 pugs busy until the team clears everything else. Free win.
- CWs (if they do GG) also have a huge advantage over everyone else when it comes to the number of kills and assists.
- GWFs are somewhere next to the CWs. They don't have the AoE to take down groups of 5+ in seconds in GG, but the higher damage, better CC and enormous survivability give them an advantage. When it's not GG, GWF >> CW.
- Support/CC-based builds are in a huge disadvantage.
All these points don't count in a full Rank 10 meat grinder premade. Unless they meet another full Rank 10 meat grinder premade. Which is pretty unlikely since there aren't many of those. I know only two (maybe three) guilds that are able to run a full BiS group.
This.
I think most people (whether they openly deny it to themselves or others) take this leaderboard to heart and let it somewhat affect their evaluation of themselves. This is why we are seeing these emotional reactions/comments towards this.
Its natural for people to feel this way. You put up a stat board for people to see with their KDR, win/loss record and their numerical ranking.
Jugger Conq GF
....
If not a tourney than maybe a ladder? A simple ladder. It works like this:
Ranks 1-10,000 (or however many) with the higher numbers being the top of the ladder and the lower numbers being the bottom. When you win a match against a higher ranked player your rank improves to half-way between your former rank and his. So if you are rank 100 and he is rank 1 and you beat him, you go to rank 50. If you lose against a lower rank your own rank does not go down unless the person you lost to was on the rung directly beneath you. In that case you move down one rung and he moves up one rung. Everyone new starts at the bottom of the ladder.
It is such a really simple system and doesnt require organized tourneys and elimination rounds and all of that. It makes losses so much more bearable because when you lose you don't really lose anything unless you are top 10 or top 100 and then you lose your spot and possibly get bumped out of those "Platinum" and "Gold" brackets.
Seems so easy and really would be greatly enjoyed by the pvp community imo. It would be a real measure of the skill and commitment of the players. I also think it would cause a huge increase in what pvp players spend. People would be maxing out their credit cards to get to that top spot and be recognized as the absolute top pvp player in the game.
Idealy we would have ranked matches and unranked matches, and a person could q for either.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Win 1000 to 100 or less. Other team gave up. Everyone on my team had 4-5 kills and no deaths. Under 3000 pts or so. One player on my team who is #3 on the leader boards didn't move, the rest of us dropped several pages back. For a win.
Changed play style. We cap mid and killed the other team. Back cap our home point, wait for them to cap theirs, and mount up to ride past them to go cap their point. Enemy caps mid. We cap their home then go recap mid while enemy takes our pt. then go to our pt, kill them all on the way, cap our point and repeat. 7-9k pt matches. We hold or advance our leader board placement doing this. The other team that would have been taken 1000-100 with 300 pts or less each, get 1000-400 loss, with 2-3k points on the board.
So basically you have to trade caps and not stomp people to advance. That is for premades vs bad premades or pugs. Solid premades vs solid premades is even more of a joke. Because most points are contested for a 40-70min match but rarely change hands, these matches yield about 4k points and obliterate your kill/death ratio (I don't care about this but others do). And win or lose these tough tough matches you lose leader board rank.
The best/easiest way to pad/cheese/cheat the rank system is to have 2 premises queue at the same time, only accept the queue when it simultaneously pops for both parties, then simply trade cap the mind point for 20 mins, yielding god knows how many points (15-20k each???) and then alternating matches where one team 3caps when you decide you've had enough for the win. No kills.
The leader board has too much emphasis on points per match and not wins or k/d.
Right now it yields better results for two very highly geared and skilled players to queue together and just stomp pugs, ignoring the win in favor of pure points from killing, than it does to play pvp at any competitive level. Which makes me sad.
I don't get the hate for premades.
About skill and so forth- a good premade will stomp a bad premade as easily as it will stomp a pug. You don't even get a slot in a good premade unless you have shown a degree of skill over multiple matches. The single greatest advantage that any premade has over a pug is that the players are used to playing together and know on a reflexive level, what their teamates are doing and where they are, not to mention being used to a node rotation system based on circumstances and simple straight forward verbal communication.
Jugger Conq GF
....
i know, it makes sense to not climb ranks for beating low ranked people, but lose ranking for this is not cool.
it is like, we are not the ones that choose our enemies most of the time... i was in 3rd in the ranking, and one of the guys ahead of me didn't login all day. i had 10 straight wins (including against one premade that had one of players in the first page)... i dropped 5 positions..., and even dudes that didn't play that day and were behind me passed me. i was like.. really?
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
I have to wonder, if I lost ranking, does that mean the other team gained ranking just for getting beat by a better team? Can I just find the 4 worst players in the rankings and run premades with them and gain points by losing?
http://community.arcgames.com/en/news/neverwinter/detail/5002033-module-3-campaigns-and-pvp-leaderboards
That kind of shows that the elo ranking and the leaderboard are entirely different things. The assumption that the elo would be the leaderboard meant that a lot of the mystery of the elo would be removed. It would be easy to see the rank of everyone you fought in the past so many matches. But the leaderboard doesnt even have ranks. The best we can do is look at the page number.
So lets have the actual elo as the leaderboard, or at least some form of rank on the leaderboard aside from the page numbers.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Jugger Conq GF
....
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
Actually, no one gets it, it seems.
We're seeing a variety of posts complaining about the leaderboards, but I am curious. Are those posts credible at all? They just seem to assume that a certain method is used to process the rankings, except I don't recall I've heard any actual information on how it is calculated.
If it is not the ELO method, then what is it? Does any one of us have a clue as to what the key factors are?
I'm not sure how we can criticize something that we don't fully understand. Nor do I understand what's bugging the people so badly about the leaderboards that they're bashing something that has only recently been implemented, and would probably need more time to stabilize.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
And what makes you think the rankings are not the ELO rankings?
That's actually a non-issue in terms of significance. As long as pugs and premades mix (to name only one issue), a leaderboard has no meaning whatsoever.
We've heard that before, in the end matchmaking stabilized <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> even after 100+ matches. Enough evidence to be skeptical here as well.
My point is substantive and legit, I provided a link to an official Neverwinter announcement as well as a quote from that announcement. It is interesting that you would pick the one substantiated thread to air your concerns about the substance of leaderboard complaints.
Jugger Conq GF
....