Can we please be allowed to choose what move/dodge/block we want?

ladymythos · January 2014

Quick version: I enjoy the GWF quite a bit, with one exception: I absolutely despise sprinting in combat. I think it feels very unresponsible and slow, and would really prefer if I could dodge or roll instead. Likewise, why can't the rogue sprint, or dash like a ranger? Why can't the GF sprint like a GWF?

I think being allowed to pick which one we prefer would not only make a lot of sense, but it would make the classes a lot more fun, too. Of course, it has to be some limitations. I don't see rogues or rangers blocking any time soon, for instance. Wizards might, by using a magical shield. GWF blocking... maybe. But sprinting? The GWF wears heavy armor, which means a GF should be able to sprint, too.

The point is, letting us pick this isn't going to upset the balance much, and it won't require extra animations. But it would let us personalize our characters more, and make the game more fun.

twstdecho · January 2014

Do you have immunity frames during sprint? I don't know.

There is some balance issues there, assuming the answer is no. GWF has their "immunity" built into their Tab skill. GF has no movement ability, but they have block instead. The other four have their respective movements complete with the immunity frames built in.

I wouldn't see a big deal between swapping those movement abilities around between the CW, DC, TR, and HR, but changing up the GWF and GF presents some significant issues in my mind.

ceryndrion · January 2014

I'm afraid that is something very unlikely to happen, not for nothing, the GWF sprint ability, is considered to give them the most mobility of any class.

marciooh · January 2014

A sprinting GWF is very logic to be honest. The best race for the GWF class is Dwarf and they are known for their speed on the short distance.

mithrosnomore · January 2014

I can't be sure, but I think that there are balance reasons involved in some of these.

Obviously the GF needs their block to function.

It took me a few tries, but I think that I finally got used to the GWF sprint instead of a dodge to the point that I feel good about playing a GWF.
Unfortunately that was shortly before the hunter ranger came out, so I ended up deleting the GWF I had made anyway. Turns out that I shouldn't have, but no big deal; I'll just make another and use what I know to hopefully make it even better.

ladymythos · January 2014

When I say the GWF feels unresponsible, I'm not talking about the technical issue. The game runs smooth, and the GWF runs when I want her to. But that's just it. She runs. The GF stands still, and that's all I need her to do. But the TR, DC and HR instantly moves out of the way. The GWF does not. Take the fight with the ogre in the tutorial before you reach the city the first time as an example. My very first class to try that was a TR, and I really loved how I could simply roll between its legs and attack from behind when it charged its attack. It made the game seem fresh, and offered something I haven't seen in other MMOs before. The GWF, on the other hand... ugh. Once the ogre raised its club to attack, I had to stop attacking, then run out of the way. This felt very clumsy and unresponsive, even with the sprinting.

Yes, the GF needs to be able to block, but why not give us two options? So maybe the GF can block and sprint, the GWF can roll and sprint, and so on. It would open up the gameplay a lot, and make the gameplay a lot more dynamic and fun. If done right, the actual gameplay can even go from "just gameplay mechanics" to "hey, this feels realistic!". Yes, it's that important to some of us.

I think the game is great as it is, but a few tiny improvements like this can take it from great to classic.

Edit: Though come to think of it, I do have a semi-solution already. The GWF can jump into compbat by aiming at the ground, so we can use that to jump away, too. But again, it feels more clumsy than it should.

beckylunatic · January 2014

Unless your GWF is facing a red circle attack, the best use of your sprint is generally to run through to the other side of the enemy and press your attack from behind while they are locked into their animation (such as the ogre's swing). You don't really want to get far away and then have to get back in the fight (which can be a limitation of the squishier rogue). Stay close and flank.

With sprint, you get to choose how far you go, thereby conserving your stamina to make lots of small positional adjustments. The mobility is fantastic when you get the hang of using it.

(IRT question about immunity frames, nope, you're no more immune than you are when walking.)

kweassa · January 2014

ladymythos wrote: »

When I say the GWF feels unresponsible, I'm not talking about the technical issue. The game runs smooth, and the GWF runs when I want her to. But that's just it. She runs. The GF stands still, and that's all I need her to do. But the TR, DC and HR instantly moves out of the way. The GWF does not. Take the fight with the ogre in the tutorial before you reach the city the first time as an example. My very first class to try that was a TR, and I really loved how I could simply roll between its legs and attack from behind when it charged its attack. It made the game seem fresh, and offered something I haven't seen in other MMOs before. The GWF, on the other hand... ugh. Once the ogre raised its club to attack, I had to stop attacking, then run out of the way. This felt very clumsy and unresponsive, even with the sprinting.

Yes, the GF needs to be able to block, but why not give us two options? So maybe the GF can block and sprint, the GWF can roll and sprint, and so on. It would open up the gameplay a lot, and make the gameplay a lot more dynamic and fun. If done right, the actual gameplay can even go from "just gameplay mechanics" to "hey, this feels realistic!". Yes, it's that important to some of us. I think the game is great as it is, but a few tiny improvements like this can take it from great to classic.

Edit: Though come to think of it, I do have a semi-solution already. The GWF can jump into compbat by aiming at the ground, so we can use that to jump away, too. But again, it feels more clumsy than it should.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the reason you want dodge/shift rolls with GWFs, is precisely why they didn't give it to them.

If GWFs get the "immunity dodge" like TRs or HR, then I want me TRs to have CC immunity. Deal?

charononus · January 2014

Time your unstoppable's instead to just stand in the red. When unstoppable red zones just tickle a bit. That said being unable to dodge or roll on a gwf would be completely overpowered. People already complain about gwf now imagine that they're able to dodge like a good cw or dc as things try to knock them down. Give them dodge and you might as well rename the class God.

inquisitorrahl · January 2014

I don't know if I'm just bad or what, but my GWF seem unable to get out of attack animations, for instance the Rogue daze strike(name escapes me). I can start running away from the as soon as I see them jump in the air, they hang for a half second(this is non stealth), I am NOWHERE NEAR the Rogue, and I'll still always be hit. Like I said, maybe I'm just not timing it right or something, but I'm finding it frustrating. Thankfully unstoppable purges and tanks stuff pretty well heh.

On a side note, I'm discovering that trying to dodge Icy Rays(on my CW) is a lesson in futility. I think I've done it maybe once...maybe. That skill has the tiniest dodge window ever

Unknown · January 2014

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charononus · January 2014

macjae wrote: »

This sounds like an excellent plan. Let's give GWFs the CW ability to teleport. It would fit well with the established pattern of giving GWFs the GF paragon path. They'd still be missing stealth and the ability to heal, though. That would have to change next. And they would probably be better off if they could get some ranged attacks too. Or maybe just give Roar a range of 110 feet so no one can outrange them.

You can already out heal some clerics if you have good lifesteal, regen, and the sent feat to heal while unstoppable. On the x report that is, you obviously can't heal others still.

xthebluespiritx · January 2014

thats pretty sad that a gwf can outheal a cleric, and the cleric cant even heal itself -_-

overddrive · January 2014

ladymythos wrote: »

Quick version: I enjoy the GWF quite a bit, with one exception: I absolutely despise sprinting in combat. I think it feels very unresponsible and slow, and would really prefer if I could dodge or roll instead. Likewise, why can't the rogue sprint, or dash like a ranger? Why can't the GF sprint like a GWF?

I think being allowed to pick which one we prefer would not only make a lot of sense, but it would make the classes a lot more fun, too. Of course, it has to be some limitations. I don't see rogues or rangers blocking any time soon, for instance. Wizards might, by using a magical shield. GWF blocking... maybe. But sprinting? The GWF wears heavy armor, which means a GF should be able to sprint, too.

The point is, letting us pick this isn't going to upset the balance much, and it won't require extra animations. But it would let us personalize our characters more, and make the game more fun.

GWF has dodge encounters already, mighty leap and punishing charge. Though I think sprint works well enough on its own. I have mine keybound to my right mouse button to make it easier.

ladymythos · January 2014

beckylunatic wrote: »

Unless your GWF is facing a red circle attack

This is exactly the problem. Red circle attacks. Once they show up, I can't do anything other than standing there and get hit. Running away is too slow and clumsy to be of any use, especially if there are several enemies. The other classes moves out of the way in half a second, but the GWF needs a few seconds to turn around. See the problem?

kweassa wrote: »

I have a sneaking suspicion that the reason you want dodge/shift rolls with GWFs, is precisely why they didn't give it to them.

If GWFs get the "immunity dodge" like TRs or HR, then I want me TRs to have CC immunity. Deal?

Sorry to disappoint you. All I want is to get out of the way as quickly as possible.

macjae wrote: »

This sounds like an excellent plan. Let's give GWFs the CW ability to teleport.

Again, sorry to disappoint you. I've never said anything about GWFs being able to teleport. This is entirely about the GWF being too unresponsible. That's it. I do like the class a lot, but it's by far my least played one simply because I can't get out of the red circles quickly enough. Even the TR has a problem with this when I'm stuck in an attack animation, and the GWF is by far slower.

kattefjaes · January 2014

ladymythos wrote: »

When I say the GWF feels unresponsible, I'm not talking about the technical issue.

Do you mean "unresponsive" or "irresponsible"? They are quite different things.

In any case, the shift skills are core to each class, swapping them around would just be daft, much like swapping the tab skills.

ladymythos · January 2014

I mean what I've said all along. It feels too slow and clumsy. And yes, I know the shift-key is core to each class, which is why the title of this thread asks if we can choose which one we want.

kattefjaes · January 2014

Sigh, I give up.

ladymythos · January 2014

I am serious. This is a real issue for me, so please respect that and read the thread the next time before making weird comments like that. Thanks.

degraafination · January 2014

Give those Sentinels 3-5 dodges plus Unstoppable? Umm...

ladymythos · January 2014

Who says anything about unstoppable, dodge immunity or anything like that? Heck, you can keep the running-only for PvP for all you care. All I want is to dodge faster in PvE. That's it. It would make the game a lot more fun, and it won't upset the balance in any way. Why is this so hard to understand?

zargorius666 · January 2014

ladymythos wrote: »

I mean what I've said all along. It feels too slow and clumsy. And yes, I know the shift-key is core to each class, which is why the title of this thread asks if we can choose which one we want.

I'm sorry but this must be your very personal problem - dodging with GWF (making short sprints) is extremely easy, much easier than CW or DC as most of the time you don't have to worry about lack of stamina. Hell, during a boss fight I can sprint all across the room if necessary! Sprinting btw is my favourite way of quick repositioning to gain Combat Advantage, never had a problem with that.

It's either me being incredibly skilled or...maybe you need to change the default button?

ladymythos · January 2014

Sigh... it's easy to do, yes. That's not the problem. The problem is, AGAIN, that it feels very slow and clumsy.

charononus · January 2014

ladymythos wrote: »

Who says anything about unstoppable, dodge immunity or anything like that? Heck, you can keep the running-only for PvP for all you care. All I want is to dodge faster in PvE. That's it. It would make the game a lot more fun, and it won't upset the balance in any way. Why is this so hard to understand?

Balance isn't just pvp, there does have to be some balance for pve as well. If gwf could dodge, why in the world would you ever, ever, roll a rogue at that point? The answer, you wouldn't, it would be an incredibly poor choice at that point.

zargorius666 · January 2014

ladymythos wrote: »

Sigh... it's easy to do, yes. That's not the problem. The problem is, AGAIN, that it feels very slow and clumsy.

Have you tried practicing dodging/repositioning in PvP? I find the GWF ability to move quickly around one of his best points and fighting against another human is good practice. Many people I see using GWF just stand there and whack away, often at empty air. In my opinion continuously moving in short burst is a must for GWF and the best way to learn it is in PvP.

slushpsycho · January 2014

So a gwf asking for buff?

Jesus plz condemn this one to hell. This is beyond humanlity

silvergryph · January 2014

I believe I understand what you are saying and while I feel the dodging playstyle is valid for a GWF, I don't think that is really what the devs were going for with Sprint. I think that the intended purpose for a GWF's sprint is to charge into battle or to reposition for an attack. Not to avoid attacks. I actually wish that they had named it "Charge" instead of Sprint. The GWF has mechanics that benefit from being struck, so he rushes headlong into an attack and uses unstoppable to ignore the worst effects of red splats.

There are ways to make a very dodgy GWF though. Mighty Leap, Punishing Charge and Threatening Rush can all be used to avoid a red splat. Combined with Sprints this can be very effective.

It is also worth noting that in my experience Sprint is very hard to consistently trigger with WASD double-taps. The SHIFT modifier key is much more reliable and I have it mapped to a mouse button as well.

zargorius666 · January 2014

silvergryph wrote: »

It is also worth noting that in my experience Sprint is very hard to consistently trigger with WASD double-taps. The SHIFT modifier key is much more reliable and I have it mapped to a mouse button as well.

This for example - i never use double taps as found them too unreliable, especially when continuously moving around.

beckylunatic · January 2014

I think part of the problem is also thinking you need to turn around to get out of that red circle. Don't. Run ahead and out, in the direction you're already facing. This also often has the advantage of positioning you behind your enemy for a flank attack before they get a chance to turn, if it was something you were fighting face-on a moment ago.

ladymythos · January 2014

Sigh... here I was thinking it was a simple issue that could easily be solved. I never learn... So for one last time:

1. I am NOT talking about buffs. I am *only* talking about dashing or dodging AS WELL as being able to run. Preference only.

2. I am NOT literally turning around to run. But you can't run backward, so I say "turn around and run". Figure of speach, if you will.

3. I am NOT talking about PvP in any way. I don't even like it PvP, and haven't tried it against real people since Quake 3 Arena. The only exception is an occasional moba, just to see what it's about. I hated it.

4. I AM talking about preference, and preference only. I think running away feels too slow and clumsy, and would strongly prefer a small roll or dash instead, like the wizards, rogue and ranger can. And if they want to run instead of rolling or dashing, by all means let them. More options are always better.

I really don't get what's so hard to understand, but I give up. Threads like these have a way of flying completely out of control quickly, and that's the last thing I want. So as you clearly don't get what I mean, I don't see a point in discussing it anymore. I've made myself as clear as I can.

kolatmaster · January 2014

marciooh wrote: »

A sprinting GWF is very logic to be honest. The best race for the GWF class is Dwarf and they are known for their speed on the short distance.

I can attest to the veracity of this statement. :cool:

Can we please be allowed to choose what move/dodge/block we want?

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