Now that Control Wizards will have Fire...?

ngeluz · October 2013

Just wondering, now that CW will have fire what will be left for the Warlocks?

I mean will the CW have master the Spell Plague Blue Fire? (WOULD LOOOVVVEE THIS!!!!)
Or is it going to be plain elemental fire? (awww, shucks~*)

I guess the Blue fire could be more for a Sorcerer Paragon Path (Spellscar) ... or even a Warlock Paragon Path even though they HAVE Hellfire (Hellfire Warlock) which is red and black or something in dose lines.

I guess special popular anti-heroes races, (Shades, Revanant,
Vryloka, Shadar-kai, Cambion (Demon heritage not Devil) etc.) classes (Blackguard, Lich, Vampire, Necromancer, etc) or paragon path (Hellfire Warlock, SpellScar, Nethermancer, Death Knight, etc) could be a store items... since they don't seem to fit in the Hero theme of the game.

Or the blue flame could be a significant change in cosmetic and mechanic by choosing on a passive/talent chosen in the Wizard tables of powers/abilities.

Any D&D Lore master, experience players or even community managers out there that could tell us a bit of who could possibly get the oh so popular and powerful Blue Flames? Would love your toughs on this...:o

ausdoerrt · October 2013

From the skill descriptions, looks like the new CW paragon is all about RIMFIRE, a sort of magical fire&ice mix. Definitely different from Warlocks.

Also Warlocks have a variety of stuff beyond hellfire. Perhaps they'll even be a melee class, who knows.

ambisinisterr · October 2013

There's a lot more to warlocks than fire and a lot more to wizards in general than ice and lightning.

Ice and lightning works great for the control theme but I never expected that warlocks would have an exlcusive to fire based spells. There were fire based spells before warlocks, you know.

And I would guess that it will be good old fire. Plaguefire is something uite different and would have been stated as such if that was the case in my opinion.

bioshrike · October 2013

From what I've read, a big difference between Wizards and Warlocks is that Wizards sort of approach magic from a scholarly/scientific approach - they learn how to manipulate magical forces directly, and via their own will/skill/etc, bring about the desired effects. Warlocks are actually somewhat like Clerics - they appeal to a powerful being/entity, and make some sort of arrangement to serve its interests, in exchange for power.

Now, how that distinction would be reflected in game is another story. Perhaps Warlocks would get more "personal" abilities - like a fire sword, fire armor, or even being able to summon lesser fire elementals to fight their enemies. It might also be expressed as more of an abstract or indirect abilities - like healing flames, or maybe even walls or cages of fire, to trap and attack enemies.

runebane · October 2013

bioshrike wrote: »

From what I've read, a big difference between Wizards and Warlocks is that Wizards sort of approach magic from a scholarly/scientific approach - they learn how to manipulate magical forces directly, and via their own will/skill/etc, bring about the desired effects. Warlocks are actually somewhat like Clerics - they appeal to a powerful being/entity, and make some sort of arrangement to serve its interests, in exchange for power.

Something like that, yep.

bioshrike wrote: »

Now, how that distinction would be reflected in game is another story. Perhaps Warlocks would get more "personal" abilities - like a fire sword, fire armor, or even being able to summon lesser fire elementals to fight their enemies. It might also be expressed as more of an abstract or indirect abilities - like healing flames, or maybe even walls or cages of fire, to trap and attack enemies.

Eh, don't know about all that. Lots of different kinds of Warlocks. We'll have to wait and see how they translate the Scourge Warlock into Neverwinter.

I will say that its not beyond possibility that we could have a "blue fire warlock". Was just reading that most scourge warlocks make pacts with devils or creatures from the far realm. The Abolethic Sovereignty seem to be in charge of the Order of the Blue Fire running amok everywhere. I seriously doubt it though. The past videos show the warlock with regular red fire.

ausdoerrt · October 2013

runebane wrote: »

The past videos show the warlock with regular red fire.

What videos??

runebane · October 2013

ausdoerrt wrote: »

What videos??

Before the game ever went officially live they did a series of videos on the different classes at such. At the final seconds of the great weapon fighter reveal of them they showed an archer and what many believe to be the warlock. (Fire magic & no orb) There were other stuff at the time going around as well. There were screenshots with pictures of gear with required class listed as scourge warlock. IIRC there was some other videos as well, but I can't remember where they were.

This was obviously just teaser stuff, but eh... you take what you get.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PWA1unaRCo&list=UUsIghHd1VyG2TEjIKCRU2gw

ausdoerrt · October 2013

Ah. Some people pick up all the little details, wow.

In any case, since he seems to be wearing cloth rather than armor, I'd wager this is more along the lines of the new CW paragon. We'll see.

ironzerg79 · October 2013

There's no direct correlation between Warlocks and Fire. Warlocks derive their power for a pact made with some sort of extraplanar or supernatural being, and this power can manifest in many forms.

grungebrmpk · October 2013

Cool information, but imo the last thing we need is another striker class

We need +1 tank and +1 leader classes, that way the queue for dungeons will not takes too long like now

ausdoerrt · October 2013

ironzerg79 wrote: »

There's no direct correlation between Warlocks and Fire. Warlocks derive their power for a pact made with some sort of extraplanar or supernatural being, and this power can manifest in many forms.

Considering that Hellfire Warlock is one of the more well-known variations, one can see where this is coming from though. But yeah, it's primarily dark/eldritch energy, not fire.

grungebrmpk wrote: »

Cool information, but imo the last thing we need is another striker class
We need +1 tank and +1 leader classes, that way the queue for dungeons will not takes too long like now

Here's hoping that they design the new classes in an interesting manner, allowing the strikers to take on other roles, including leaders and controllers.

yokihiro · October 2013

The question is: Why would anyone need a warlock anyway when the CW can control AND deal massive damage? I foresee warlocks being the new GWFs. Not really needed because they "just" do damage (what the TR can do, too, but another CW will still be the better choice).

ausdoerrt · October 2013

Let's wait for them to at least announce the new class before you start bashing it

darkjeff · October 2013

yokihiro wrote: »

The question is: Why would anyone need a warlock anyway when the CW can control AND deal massive damage? I foresee warlocks being the new GWFs. Not really needed because they "just" do damage (what the TR can do, too, but another CW will still be the better choice).

In 4e, Warlocks and Wizards were always close. Wizards were Controller-Strikers, Warlocks are Striker-Controllers, depending on which build you chose. The primary difference was how they played - the Warlock inflicted curse marks which had effects depending on what powers and aspect they had, as well as semi-passive effects based off of that curse. Wizards were just the standard "cast spell, have effect" types.

yokihiro · October 2013

ausdoerrt wrote: »

Let's wait for them to at least announce the new class before you start bashing it

The actual design already shows that there is no need for all 5 classes. Due to the limitations of spells in your hotbar and same kind of dungeons this will just continue. I also doubt that we will see lots of groups next time where the ranger AND the rogue both find their place and needed equally. Either pick one of them. In other games where you have 5 hotbars with 30 spells active it makes sense to have different classes because they bring so many unique stuff that you can have a Warlock, Wizard and Necromancers together - for example the different kinds of buff they have.

grungebrmpk · October 2013

The limited hotbars are very good imo, because this define the action aspect of the game. Like a-rpgs.
Then I agree that we need more diverse classes (in role aspect), as I said before.
Today one of the major problems here are that we have 1 leader and 1 tanker. If people don't like them, people will chosse to make a striker, leaving the game with a very little number of them. And then, if you are a striker and queue for a dungeon, you take a long time to form a group.

One day I was in a pre-made with 3 strikers (me as DC, 2 rogues and 1 GWF), and we took 1 hour to find a tank

iergo · October 2013

Blood magic.

werealchemist · October 2013

runebane wrote: »

Before the game ever went officially live they did a series of videos on the different classes at such. At the final seconds of the great weapon fighter reveal of them they showed an archer and what many believe to be the warlock. (Fire magic & no orb) There were other stuff at the time going around as well. There were screenshots with pictures of gear with required class listed as scourge warlock. IIRC there was some other videos as well, but I can't remember where they were.

This was obviously just teaser stuff, but eh... you take what you get.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PWA1unaRCo&list=UUsIghHd1VyG2TEjIKCRU2gw

Unfortunately this was back when they didn't even have point buy power trees, so who knows what could have changed since then...

ausdoerrt · October 2013

grungebrmpk wrote: »

One day I was in a pre-made with 3 strikers (me as DC, 2 rogues and 1 GWF), and we took 1 hour to find a tank

Frankly, most people underestimate potential for diversity in this game. For example, the only class that can't really be built as an effective tank in this game is CW. Not many people build their TRs or DCs to tank, but the possibility is there. Unfortunate, but not the fault of the game. On the other hand, fault of the players who won't build outside the box, on the other hand - fault of the players who won't take anything other than a GF for a tank role.

yokihiro wrote: »

The actual design already shows that there is no need for all 5 classes. Due to the limitations of spells in your hotbar and same kind of dungeons this will just continue. I also doubt that we will see lots of groups next time where the ranger AND the rogue both find their place and needed equally. Either pick one of them. In other games where you have 5 hotbars with 30 spells active it makes sense to have different classes because they bring so many unique stuff that you can have a Warlock, Wizard and Necromancers together - for example the different kinds of buff they have.

Obviously when we'll have more than 5 classes and only 5-person party limit, there will be no need for all classes. I don't think that was the point to begin with. The point is VARIETY, allowing various classes/builds to fill various roles. Surely, if you max/min to the extreme, you'll only need X, Y and Z, and the rest is "useless". But nobody requires you to do that. If you like to max/min, on the other hand, there's no reason to require that playstyle from everyone.

Also, as games like GW2 and NW show, the number of hotbars is no indication of combat system depth. Whether the players choose to tap into that depth is an altogether different issue. NW system is also reasonably flexible, to the extent that you can build a toon to have a viable "secondary role" with some power changes. For example, my DC is build primarily for dps and some buffs/mitigation, but can reasonably fill the healer/buffer role in a dungeon if needed. I've seen other DCs who tank about as well as GFs, etc etc.

ngeluz · October 2013

I read and made a bit of research on the D&D Warlock and as its stands its a Striker/Controller BUT and its a BIG but..hehehe, The Warklock powers depend mostly on the *Pact* the made, some of then can even heal, change form and cover mostly all roles.

So I guess it all will depend on the Paragon Paths... I mean I read you can make Pact with all sorts of godly otherworldly entities besides Demons Prices or Arch Devils there: The Dark Lords from the Shadow Fell, The Arch Fey for the Fey Wild, the Primal Lords from the Elemental Plane of Chaos, with Stars and Far Realm otherworldly entities.

Even thought its abilities might still stick strictly Striker/Controller the flavor to fill all roles with this class is VERY possible because it all comes down to *The Pact and its source of Power* and its Paragon Paths. I remember playing one in the Neverwinter Nights expansions and they would even wore MAIL and Leather... it was really interesting and a VERY hybrid class but the D&D rules where different at that time about caster Penalty/Benefits and Armors.

SO I believe what our friend said about a Tank/Leader even if this class is not strictly THAT, it is possible, but I'm guessing that will be left to the Paladins.

I'm really getting exited about how this class may turn out ones the Team of NW brings it to life! In the mean time I be happy if at least i get to turn my fire BLUE with BRIMSTONE effect!

PS NOTE: I think the Shard of the Endless Avalanche visuals FX need to be rework to add a more fiery ice lighting elemental chaos to it (you got the massive Earth Boulder Mix Right and I love it but still missing more life), And whats up with the Lightning being so... small SOOOO unfair that the Werewolf Shamans and other baddies get such WONDERFUL looking Lightning FX and where stuck with <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> leftover compare to them? :rolleyes:

ngeluz · October 2013

To the one that said Blood Magic that's undead; Vampire, Necromancer, Lich class/paragon path Territory there found in the new source book Heroes Of Shadow where heroes can use the powers of Darkness for good. I read it its very interesting concept.

Or Just go with the Enchantments.

yokihiro · November 2013

ausdoerrt wrote: »

Also, as games like GW2 and NW show, the number of hotbars is no indication of combat system depth. Whether the players choose to tap into that depth is an altogether different issue. NW system is also reasonably flexible, to the extent that you can build a toon to have a viable "secondary role" with some power changes. For example, my DC is build primarily for dps and some buffs/mitigation, but can reasonably fill the healer/buffer role in a dungeon if needed. I've seen other DCs who tank about as well as GFs, etc etc.

I play a DC as well. In T2 dungeons you are basically forced to take Astral shield with you. So one slot is gone already. There is not much mixing around anymore. When the tougher dungeons come out no one will take a DC with them that chose to go DPS. There is just no need for them. People need to stay alive. That is what I am saying. It would be different if I could use 2 more encounter abilities, then I could mix in some debuff and support stuff.

And with the new artifact system they basically bring another ability up. I'd rather like to see a 4th encounter ability though, so there is more variaty. And it is just pure basic math, that more abilities on your hotbar will lead to much more different builds. For example most of the time DCs in T2 dungeons come with AS, FF, and SB. When you play a dungeon 20 times if becomes really boring to be the heal bot, that only clicks the same abilities and never can support the team with a root, a debuff, a slow... ON TOP of the healing I give.

And concerning the need for classes. When I pug and join SP where there are 0 CWs but 2 GWFs I leave rightaway. Yes, it would work, but if you need minutes to beat some encounters this becomes a major pain. I try to play dungeons legit, so no running. That's why a lot of fighting takes place and some classes take just too much time to move forward. In the end those party constellations will evolve that are the fastes and most effective ones anyway.

ausdoerrt · November 2013

yokihiro wrote: »

I play a DC as well. In T2 dungeons you are basically forced to take Astral shield with you. So one slot is gone already. There is not much mixing around anymore. When the tougher dungeons come out no one will take a DC with them that chose to go DPS. There is just no need for them. People need to stay alive. That is what I am saying. It would be different if I could use 2 more encounter abilities, then I could mix in some debuff and support stuff.

FORCED by the group more than by the game, I'm sure. I've seen certain DCs successfully tank bosses instead of GFs. Yes, you do need a group that can communicate and is not brain-dead for that.

When there's 2 DCs in a group, I usually even unslot the AS and go with all the highest-damage powers with either a buff/debuff flavor (DL/Chains/DG) or a DoT flavor (DL/FF/BtS), and Lance+BotS for at-wills. Yeah, you can't do this if you're the only DC, and the rest of the group isn't self-sufficient enough. But that's less of the designers' fault, more of the players fault. And indeed, hopefully the artifacts will remedy it somewhat.

xhrit · November 2013

From what I hear the Warlock class is a Hexblade, and has a weapon swap mechanic like the Ranger. The two weapons are staff and dagger (like the warlock in the trailer). Using the staff gives nukes and curses, while the dagger gives melee attacks and debuffs.

Just what I hear tho.

rabbinicus · November 2013

xhrit wrote: »

From what I hear the Warlock class is a Hexblade, and has a weapon swap mechanic like the Ranger. The two weapons are staff and dagger (like the warlock in the trailer). Using the staff gives nukes and curses, while the dagger gives melee attacks and debuffs.

Just what I hear tho.

Which sounds neat, do you have a source?

diomedes3 · November 2013

I never liked the idea of the warlock being added... i mean maybe later but there are so many other classes i would rather see first, like monks, druids, bards, paladins, necromancers, Dervishes, and Barbarians

in actual D&D there is a real difference between wizards and warlocks but i dont see how it can reflected here from a gameplay perspective. it could easily, in my opinion, just be another paragon path for the current wizard.

ngeluz · November 2013

I worry about this as well, the warlock is all about POWER, that’s why u make a Pact, I mean it’s ok if they do what they say, BUT I rather just see MY Warlock BLASTING everything with its bare hands (Like in DCUO where u can chose Hand Blaster Gloves LOVE this original concept) and the TAB would Just change the range to melee and all that you mention. It be flashy different and so much FUN. I’m mean; Staff is more for druids or other more…traditional classes. I would play it still even it uses a Hex blade or ugh... the OLD traditional classic staff. :rolleyes:

mewmaster101 · November 2013

Warlocks make a pact with a powerful magical creature (or the stars for some reason), generally some sort of demonic, or fey creature, though not always. They deal in powerful illusions and elemental spells, though both of them have a sort of twist depending on what gave them the magic. For example, Warlocks who get their power from a powerful demon (probably a demon lord and is also the one we will most likely see at first as it is the most well known) have powers with a demonic twist, mind-**** illusions, hellfire, etc.

Also, as said above, a big difference is most wizards are very scholarly and wise (or are at least smart), Warlocks tend to be much more wild (their powers are generally Charisma based, though some have Con as a main stat) and are probably more likely to be Chaotic in their alignment. Also, they are under the power of a powerful entity, at least to some extent, of which depends on the specific being. Some use Warlocks as servants, many make a deal (they get powers, then have to do/get something), others are given powers and then told they will have to do something for the being when asked, though not right away.

runebane · November 2013

mewmaster101 wrote: »

Warlocks make a pact with a powerful magical creature (or the stars for some reason), generally some sort of demonic, or fey creature, though not always.

If you are referring to Star Pact Warlocks, they still get their powers from a powerful magical creature. They just might not know it. Their powers come from Elder Evils in the Far Realm.

mewmaster101 wrote: »

They deal in powerful illusions and elemental spells, though both of them have a sort of twist depending on what gave them the magic. For example, Warlocks who get their power from a powerful demon (probably a demon lord and is also the one we will most likely see at first as it is the most well known) have powers with a demonic twist, mind-**** illusions, hellfire, etc.

I don't think we've seen any Warlocks in the game that get their power from demons. They seem to have avoided adding any demon related content.

mewmaster101 wrote: »

Also, as said above, a big difference is most wizards are very scholarly and wise (or are at least smart), Warlocks tend to be much more wild (their powers are generally Charisma based, though some have Con as a main stat) and are probably more likely to be Chaotic in their alignment.

Either chaotic or Evil. I would not be surprised if the majority of Warlocks were Lawful. With the Devils being so active on Toril now.

mewmaster101 wrote: »

Also, they are under the power of a powerful entity, at least to some extent, of which depends on the specific being. Some use Warlocks as servants, many make a deal (they get powers, then have to do/get something), others are given powers and then told they will have to do something for the being when asked, though not right away.

This isn't always the case. Yes, the Warlock is beholden to some extent to the creature that grants them their powers. But its not as cut and dry as that. Star Pact Warlocks (for example) don't always even know the entity they are getting their powers from. Warlocks to the very lawful devils probably have specific and detailed contracts.

mewmaster101 · November 2013

runebane wrote: »

If you are referring to Star Pact Warlocks, they still get their powers from a powerful magical creature. They just might not know it. Their powers come from Elder Evils in the Far Realm.

the players handbook mentions Star pact warlocks as basically astrologers who have learned a bit too much about the stars

I don't think we've seen any Warlocks in the game that get their power from demons. They seem to have avoided adding any demon related content.

yeah we have, The Infernal Pact in the players handbook explicitly mentions devils and demons

Either chaotic or Evil. I would not be surprised if the majority of Warlocks were Lawful. With the Devils being so active on Toril now.

I was more talking about personality in general, i cannot see a very Lawful person making a pact with an incredibly dangerous creature.

My responses are in Red

runebane · November 2013

mewmaster101 wrote: »

the players handbook mentions Star pact warlocks as basically astrologers who have learned a bit too much about the stars

In the forgotten realms setting (where Neverwinter is based) the powers behind those stars are evil creatures of the Far Realm. Not all of the Warlocks using those powers even know that themselves though.

mewmaster101 wrote: »

yeah we have, The Infernal Pact in the players handbook explicitly mentions devils and demons

Sorry, I was referring to a lack of demonic content in the game Neverwinter, not D&D as a whole. There are plenty of Devils in Neverwinter, but their chaotic counterparts (Demons) are hardly mentioned.

mewmaster101 wrote: »

I was more talking about personality in general, i cannot see a very Lawful person making a pact with an incredibly dangerous creature.

I'm pretty sure the multitude of evil warlocks that get their power from Lawful Evil Devils would argue with that.

Now that Control Wizards will have Fire...?

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