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GWFs Unstoppable needs re-work
wondras
Member Posts: 9 Arc User
NOTE: this was pre-nerf thread, surviability was reduced but gave nothing in return
Why does it needs rework?
Many people cry how OP the Unstoppable is. I am GWf myself and I can partially agree.
Fellow GWFs, ask yourself - is really current Unstoppable the skill we need?
I dont think so. There are some reasons why:
1) it gives great surviability, yes it is nice - but why to have such surviability if we have no hard taunts?
2) it returns great part of HP lost - I dont know much much HP do I need to loose to fill determination, but feats + 20% temporary hitpoints nearly equals the lost HP, giving many GWF tool to abuse this in PvP.
3) it doesnt make you unstoppable, there are many effect which can still CC you
Where would I like to see Unstoppable?
Help fit our current role as AoEr!
Why do we need 50% damage ressistance? Lets trade it for damage because we cant generate enought aggro to be considered as tank anyway.
First of all - complete CC immunity is needed(maybe except slows), like bosses have.
What about +20% ressistance, +20% bonus damage and only 10% temporary hitpoints?
Or rather, even more to fit the role: no temporary HP and passive effect causing our encounters to create shockwaves of percentage of damage dealt to near area.
Shockwave 100-20% of encounter damage depending how far the targets are from impact, maximum 30ft away would be nice, wouldnt it?
If you look at greater/perfect vorpal rogue in the DPS table, it would still keep him at top but make GWFs a bit closer to him - it is not OP if there is already better damager, is it?
This would make us competitive in PvE and balance us in PvP, what is your opinion?
tl;dr: Unstoppable offers more surviability then we need, while we could use more damage instead.
Why does it needs rework?
Many people cry how OP the Unstoppable is. I am GWf myself and I can partially agree.
Fellow GWFs, ask yourself - is really current Unstoppable the skill we need?
I dont think so. There are some reasons why:
1) it gives great surviability, yes it is nice - but why to have such surviability if we have no hard taunts?
2) it returns great part of HP lost - I dont know much much HP do I need to loose to fill determination, but feats + 20% temporary hitpoints nearly equals the lost HP, giving many GWF tool to abuse this in PvP.
3) it doesnt make you unstoppable, there are many effect which can still CC you
Where would I like to see Unstoppable?
Help fit our current role as AoEr!
Why do we need 50% damage ressistance? Lets trade it for damage because we cant generate enought aggro to be considered as tank anyway.
First of all - complete CC immunity is needed(maybe except slows), like bosses have.
What about +20% ressistance, +20% bonus damage and only 10% temporary hitpoints?
Or rather, even more to fit the role: no temporary HP and passive effect causing our encounters to create shockwaves of percentage of damage dealt to near area.
Shockwave 100-20% of encounter damage depending how far the targets are from impact, maximum 30ft away would be nice, wouldnt it?
If you look at greater/perfect vorpal rogue in the DPS table, it would still keep him at top but make GWFs a bit closer to him - it is not OP if there is already better damager, is it?
This would make us competitive in PvE and balance us in PvP, what is your opinion?
tl;dr: Unstoppable offers more surviability then we need, while we could use more damage instead.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
This is NOT a hard concept to understand. Yet people completely ignore it and come to the forums to complain, slightly annoying to say the least. Either way, GWFs are in a good, healthy place right now in PvP/PvE (not bringing up Tenebrous as that is a separate discussion) so let's just work on becoming better players and enjoying the game.
As the guy above said, if a GWF goes unstoppable, all the other classes have to do is retreat, wait for it to run out and attack again. They are pissed off cause they are Killing you but you manage to pop unstoppable and get away, or cause they are Killing you, you go unstoppable, they try to tank and die.
Either way, except for broken sentinel builds, when you use unstoppable you have already lost health. The more unstoppable you can use, the more HP you lost. And your HP is limited, so unstoppable is limited too. Only the above mentioned sentinels with 37k+ hp seems broken thanks to unstoppable. But for the rest, it's the only thing that makes the other GWF builds, good.
Yes it is.
Here is why:
1. GWF is a melee DPS class and needs the ability to stay in the fight. Unstoppable gives GWF the ability to do this, otherwise the class would have to constantly run out of the fight due to all of the RED circles.
2. The temp HP and health Regen also plays into point 1. Allows the GWF to stay in the fight and put out that damage and stay in the fight.
It would appear your keep bouncing between issues with PvP & PvE and don't understand how the class works or your role as a GWF. GWF is a DPS Class and NOT a main tank. Their job is to put out as much damage as possible and off-tank if necessary. Also you can never balance PvP & PvE so stop trying to think you can. The more they nerf classes for PvP the more it affects PvE players ability to play the game.
Unstoppable is great skill, but it offers too much surivability - we could use a bit less of surviability and a bit more dps.
Currently, GWF is the most durable class(along with perma-stealth), but has 4 target cap etc slowing our damage down.
Please tell me more about how many hard-taunts and aggro feats GWF has.
When did GWF get Stealth?
Also most durable class is GF.
People tend to cry, but when there are ALOT of people cry, something must be wrong.. You're trying to force the rest to 'hard swallow' your concept. GWFs need to be re-work.. After TR, they are next in line.
Yeah people still stand in red...guess we should nerf mobs now to accommodate special folks that refuse to learn.
WMS + Cancel Animation + Roar + Daring Shout(for the harder T2s) + Your favorite encounter + DPS Spec + DPS geared = All the threat management you need. No hard-taunts are needed. Even with the target cap, you can still manage at least double that cap through dps threat generation as long as you are constantly pivoting.
You do realize that maybe 5% of the playerbase visit the forums regularly? So where is that survey that shows ALOT of people crying? In fact, it's quite the opposite. The vast majority of players see GWFs as a useless class in need of a dire buff. I don't agree with that either, and that view is slowly shifting closer to the actual state of GWFs, with more players starting to really understand the class.
The only issue, PvP wise, has to do with Tenebrous Enchants and their synergy with HP stacking Sentinels. A high HP+defense GF with Tenebrous, is just as OP if not more than a GWF. Remove the Tenebrous out of the equation, and you might see the Sentinel tree being the least favored PvP spec.
To those "smart" guys trying to teach me how to play GWF: dont you think I already know all of the stuff? Ever came to your mind I might not be lvl 15 crying, but geared 60 who can see the bigger endgame picture?
I know how to play GWF, i know to generate threat, but generating threat and getting absolute threat in one press is difference what can save group.
I never said they should delete unstoppable, I said it is not exactly what we need with our current role, again please read the first post.
Unstoppable makes us maybe a little too strong in PvP and maybe a little too weak in PvE, thats where the crying come from - to buff from PvErs, to nerf from PvPers and I was trying to smooth the line.
You have blinders on. If I wanted to tank ...wait for it...
wait for it.......
I would have rolled a GF.
I picked GWF so I could DPS. This means I want ZERO threat. You want to tank that is fine but asking for threat to be incorporated into unstoppable is shortsighted at best.
please actually READ the posts before you reply to it, thanks
And what exactly is wrong for you with my suggestion to have Unstoppable increase damage?
Once again to people who are lazy to read: we hardly can be full time tanks bc we lack key abilities of a tank skillset and as such we would have more benefits if we have higher damage(in trade for a bit lower surviability)
Please go back to your Main TR and leave the GWF (your Alt) alone. Better yet, see my Avatar. LOL.
If you want to generate threat with a GWF stop using single target skills, play with these encounter: Come and Get it, Daring Shout and Roar. Spec Sentinel:Student of the Sword:Powerful Challenge:Intimidation:Master at Arms: Defiance:Sentinel's Aegis// Build Crit, Armor Pen, Power, and Recovery w/ perfect lightning or GPlague fire. Class feature: steel blitz and Weapon Master.
Use your aoe at wills only while unstoppable is active and forget about PVPing.
Its a melee based AoE class tank/dps hydrid changing unstoppable by reducing or removing its damage mitigation is a total fail IMO if its more than a slight decrease. You try to claim it will balance the class in PvP but you don't really explain how a class that has to use encounters to do any real damage and those encounters have slow very dodge friendly animations that a GWF needs to survive long enough to either luck into an enemy not dodging or the enemy having already exhausted their stamina. With the fact that if a GWF isn't unstoppable any class that can prone a target can be dangerous GF the most while clerics and CWs can with some powers. The class has a very exploitable weakness it just happens to be something the most played classes rogues and control wizard aren't nearly as well equipped to handle then the GF class. Every other class has a tab skill that either recovers on its own or can be stored for use as needed and a stamina skill that can avoid even a daily if used properly.
If you can explain how making a class that has no avoidance mechanism in PvP for 90% of skills that are all auto targetting that can only do any dangerous damage when they're encounters and daily are up functional with probably only 25% mitigation applying (most decent players have enough armor pen to get the most damage against bosses monsters and gutting a large portion of the tankier GWF builds non unstop armor) and no real range attacks able to live long enough to affect another please enlighten.
Finally some valuable contribution.
Yes you re right in most statements, but if you read your own post, you realize even you admit GWF skillset doesnt harmonize with itself. GWFs are tank/DPS however they are torn between those two roles lacking key parts* making us always much worse then dedicated class(GF/TR). My ideas were ment to unite GWF under DPS role and as such - with greater AoE possibilites making GWF also valiable tank if they choose to stack defensive items. I am not saying my ideas were perfect, thats why I wrote it at forums at first place, to have people discuss over it.
Btw, we DO have avoidance mechanism, however its not shift skill but encounter. Mighty Leap can be used similar to other classes SHIFT (makes you throw "dodged" on enemy attack) but i dont see any reason why i should sacrifice an encounter slot for this low skill.
*for DPS we lack some TRUE AoE, not reduced in damage when striking more targets and really doing some considerable damage, also we would need some kind or reliable single target skill - all our current skills can be dodge too easily
for TANK we dont have hard taunts/AoE taunts, one heal and the threat goes away unless we v been Roaring the target down for some time.
It perfectly fine to disagree with me.. You will see, if the voice is going on and on.. Btw, i also swap to play my GWF!!!
The golden rule: If you cant stop them, join them! They are the PvP powerhouse now! Guys, let's all play GWF, no point arguing here~ I already had a few 60s and I know the flaw :P
If we asked best PvE and best PvP players about their opinion - now that would mean sth.
But not someone who plays once, dies once and goes to make a thread.
Unstoppable is our only defense - we don't have stealth or shield or heal. We have Unstoppable and as title says we are secondary dmg dealers and secondary defenders.
So what are we gonna do without Unstoppable - go armwrestling?
There are no best players. And I think a month of being 60s at 11k GS GWF and being top rated guy of team in nearly 60% of games make me competent enought to start a thread.
Do you realize how dumb you sound right now? I wrote it a page before with red font size 4, no deleting unstoppable!
I v got no idea where did you get somebody suggested deleting/removing unstoppable, there was not a single word about it. This is probably language barrier, tell me where did you get the idea and i will correct it.
Everyone can have a opinion, but it would be more helpful if you said why do you think so.
Ehmm, if you havn't noticed, you actually do more dmg while in unstoppeble allready, you do about 25% less dmg, but at wills attack at 100% increased speed. And there are feats that increase your dmg while in unstoppeble aswell. The Sentinel build have 2 really OP feats, one wich grants you around 20% more defence for 1 feat point. It also does some more stuff. Then there's the one that gives you Deflect and AC increase while slotting Weapon Master. Those i feel are the ones needed some work. As they give you ****load of defensive capabillity for only 6 points.
Yes, a bit. Still not enought to keep with TR or to be nearly as effective, I d rather see more DPS buffs.
There are currently only three strong feats for GWF Master at Arms (the deflect) Sentinel's Aegis(the defence) and Destroyer's Purpose (final of destroyer). They dont need much points to be spent in, but dont forget you need 20 points to even reach them (15 for MaA).
If i could get those for just 6 points and then be able to put the rest into destroyer/instigator, then i would agree with you. But since they actually require you to max out the sentinel tree i hardly find them that overwhelmingly overpowered, since you completely gutted your damage to get there.
I could say that destroyers purpose is completely overpowered, 10% damage increase while unstoppable plus getting determination when doing damage, all for just ONE SINGLE POINT. But.. well, like stated above, you actually have to max the tree, so its a minimum of 21 points invested to get it.
Anyway, just my opinion. I am having fun now and then tanking people in greens indefinitely, even killing some after a couple of rotations, it usually ends with me getting someone to 5% though and then the usual lashing blade/lunging strike/chill strike or similar from a "helpful" team mate comes to claim the kill
Oh, and i (that means me, my own beliefs, not necessarily yours) still firmly believe that the only thing that is truly overpowered in PvP is tenebrous enchants. Until those are gone (like totally gone, which will never happen) its never going to be "balanced". Whoever stacked enough of them before they became extinct will win, more or less. (last time i checked there werent enough on AH to make a single greater, but i guess that fluctuates depending on how many boxes people are willing to open)