DDO is proof alone that a real time MMO CAN be similar to D&D. They have a lot of core mechanics (traps, feats, rogue skills, swimming even though highly underutilized or trivilialized) and feel through their excellent quest DM narrations. But DDO is a dated engine that needs a serious reboot and if they ever do make a reboot then they would decimate Neverwinter.
Yes similar in the vaguest sense if you are a min/maxer and yes those mechanics were very trivialized, lets not forget the non-visible cloaks, no true animal companion for rangers etc etc....peopel always forget that when they are holding DDO up against Neverwinter.
What Cryptic did though was design a themepark on rails MMO with a D&D skin and disregarded pretty much every friggin aspect of D&D mechanics.
see this is opinion and while I respect the opinion I disagree with it, they disregarded 1st edition-3.5 mechanics, the streamlined the 4e ruleset to work in an action MMO environment, could they have done more? Certainly, but the game is far from over and updates will occur. They said from point go that they were coming out with the base game and use player feedback to tweak it and that seems to be what's happening just not fast enough for some.
Baited? That's an understatement, they downright deceived players by advertising this game as providing a true D&D experience which it is anything but that. Sure you can create adventures, even though it's severely limited, but that's the ONLY thing they got somewhat in the ballpark.
Neverwinter is as much as D&D at Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance or Demon Stone.
Can you get any more over the top? There are people who consider it very much a D&D experience, you just disagree with that, none of us are the oracle of what true D&D is. Also those games you mentioned were all very much beloved by D&D fans, meaning just because Neverwinter doesn't please the comic book guy types doesn't mean that it isn't very successful.
DNeverwinter is not D&D. They are just using names.
There is no D& D without d20 system. D20 system is what make any game a D& D game.
I play it for about 16 years. I love the forth edition. It's diferent, but still d& d, still d20.
The problem with neverwinter is NOT the lack o's classes, is NOT the f
act that clerics don't use plates. Who cares about plates?
The problem is the System. Attack and def. system.
Itemization. The worse think about neverwinter.
I agree that D& D video games are not equals. But they have some characteristics that make they feel like a d& d game.
Neverwinter lacks everything that make s a d& d game.
DNeverwinter is not D&D. They are just using names.
There is no D& D without d20 system. D20 system is what make any game a D& D game.
I play it for about 16 years. I love the forth edition. It's diferent, but still d& d, still d20.
The problem with neverwinter is NOT the lack o's classes, is NOT the f
act that clerics don't use plates. Who cares about plates?
The problem is the System. Attack and def. system.
Itemization. The worse think about neverwinter.
I agree that D& D video games are not equals. But they have some characteristics that make they feel like a d& d game.
Neverwinter lacks everything that make s a d& d game.
I know many people in my D&D group that says anything other than 1st edition isn't D&D, it is just as ridiculous as what you said. D&D is many things to many different people just like Star wars.
Im arround in this foruns for arround 3 years now, and since the very begin i always warn to be very carefull on what cryptic call a true Dungeon and dragons game.
Even when the first news about game mechanincs and classes start to popup me and many others (probably pnp players like myself) start to warning about what was wrong, guess they never listened to us. As an example is the classes, for cryptic to be able to add all classes ingame with the current build (devoted cleric, war cleric, etc...) they will have to build like +20 classes for this game just from player handbook 1. it was a BIG mistake.... why ? because now people are complaining theres not much costumization to ur character... Why ? Because a control wizard is only supose to control.... if i want dps i will get some other classes. They should have build just a wizard and then u decide which especialization u wanted to follow. this is just an example how bad the game design is atm.
Neverwinter lacks everything that make s a d& d game.
Exacly, like i said im following the for 3 years now and its because is a D&D game, not because is another MMO in the market... The only thing that keep me arround is because i rly think the game have a huge potencial, the combat is amazing, the best ive seen in 10 years of my MMO's experience but its all about that. I think cryptic should rly start to think about making some real changes about the game mechanics and about end game aswell.
I will be arround to see, even if im not playing the game anymore
It's a Fantasy-Action MMO with the D&D License for Characters and Environments.
it's not a literal translation of the tabletop game. It just has the license to use the Forgotten Realms 4E Campaign setting. Creature names, Character names, Class/skill names, Environments, and Lore. But it's not REALLY built on any D&D ruleset, gameplay-wise.
I don't think this is debatable. but I've been known to be wrong on plenty of occasions.
Sooner we get past this, the more enjoyable the game will most likely be. at least that is how it is for me. YMMV.
personally, I don't see how a literal translation would actually work in a MMO environment and not be a horrific failure, but that is neither here nor there. it can work for a low-volume game like NWN (and yes, 32 players is low-volume), but not sure for a MMO. thoughts?
Now, not taking either side on this next bit, just making an observation.
From what I have read on these forums, regardless of how it begins, pretty much every "This isn't D&D enough" thread seemingly revolves around 1 of two things.
1) My cleric can't wear plate, carry a 2h hammer, tank everything, do godly damage, turn an army of undead, and keep everyone healed all at once without breaking a sweat.
2) There's only 5 classes, unless there are 60 classes, double classes, triple classes, it's not D&D.
yes, I exaggerated a bit, but the point stands. the two biggest "Not D&D" issues I see complained about the most is that Clerics don't wear plate, can't turn undead, and don't carry 2-handers, and that there are only 5 classes in the game so far. one of which can be remedied, and one, I'm not so sure.
as a Non-D&D tabletop player, i find that curiously interesting. since i never played Tabletop RPGs, I've never seen a Cleric in plate. i'm accustomed to them wearing Chainmail or Cloth, and using a 1H Mace, or a Sceptre, depending on the game. I don't know what this "Symbol" business is about with the Devoted Cleric. Should be a Sceptre by default. this Plate-wearing, 2-hand swinging Tank/Healer/DPS all at once Cleric you guys talk about sounds pretty cool and fun, but sounds like it would invalidate every other class. How does the Tabletop game balance this? Does the tabletop game even *need* to balance this?
the 5 classes thing, that's simple. just add more classes until people decide it is D&D enough. then add more after that. maybe NW should have launched with the Warlock and Ranger, and started working on other classes. I wonder why they didn't launch with the Warlock and Ranger. weren't they in Closed Beta?
How many base classes are there anyhow(since the NW classes are seeming based on the 4E Base Classes)?
TL;DR
What is a D&D? A miserable little pile of secrets! Maybe you should look in the mirror before casting judgement on others, because you are really just hurting yourself.
DNeverwinter is not D&D. They are just using names.
There is no D& D without d20 system. D20 system is what make any game a D& D game.
I play it for about 16 years. I love the forth edition. It's diferent, but still d& d, still d20.
The problem with neverwinter is NOT the lack o's classes, is NOT the f
act that clerics don't use plates. Who cares about plates?
The problem is the System. Attack and def. system.
Itemization. The worse think about neverwinter.
I agree that D& D video games are not equals. But they have some characteristics that make they feel like a d& d game.
Neverwinter lacks everything that make s a d& d game.
So, would you regard DDO as still D&D even though it no longer uses a d20 attack and defence system?
It must be D&D, every day I meet more than 20 people called Dizzt.
All the WoW servers have at least one variation of "Drizzt". So don't forget that WoW (along with every other MMO with a player named Drizzt) is also D&D. Oh, I just adopted a black cat and named it Guenhwyver, so real life is D&D now, too.
DNeverwinter is not D&D. They are just using names.
There is no D& D without d20 system. D20 system is what make any game a D& D game.
I play it for about 16 years. I love the forth edition. It's diferent, but still d& d, still d20.
The problem with neverwinter is NOT the lack o's classes, is NOT the f
act that clerics don't use plates. Who cares about plates?
The problem is the System. Attack and def. system.
Itemization. The worse think about neverwinter.
I agree that D& D video games are not equals. But they have some characteristics that make they feel like a d& d game.
Neverwinter lacks everything that make s a d& d game.
Pathfinder uses d20. GURPS uses d20. But they're not D&D......
All the WoW servers have at least one variation of "Drizzt". So don't forget that WoW (along with every other MMO with a player named Drizzt) is also D&D. Oh, I just adopted a black cat and named it Guenhwyver, so real life is D&D now, too.
Pathfinder uses d20. GURPS uses d20. But they're not D&D......
ROFL
GURPS use d20? GURPS only use 3d6 dude.
Anyway, I'm saying D20 SYSTEM. D& D use D20 system. I don't care if others games use it too.
And, pathfinder uses an OGL of the D20 system.
And for the folks that are saying that Neverwinter are just using a "new system", you are wrong.
Cryptic says "a game based in the rules of the forth edition". So, stop this lies about "new edition".
Neverwinter is not based in ANY rule of the forth edition. They are only using NAMES.
@Khatzhas DDO IS BASED in the D20 system. Hell you can see the dice roling in each attack.
0
jpnoleMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Of course its not... Doesn't change the fact that's its been advertised as such.. Which is in a nutshell a "lie". Nor does it change the fact that a large player pool wants it to be..
Yes similar in the vaguest sense if you are a min/maxer and yes those mechanics were very trivialized, lets not forget the non-visible cloaks, no true animal companion for rangers etc etc....peopel always forget that when they are holding DDO up against Neverwinter.
see this is opinion and while I respect the opinion I disagree with it, they disregarded 1st edition-3.5 mechanics, the streamlined the 4e ruleset to work in an action MMO environment, could they have done more? Certainly, but the game is far from over and updates will occur. They said from point go that they were coming out with the base game and use player feedback to tweak it and that seems to be what's happening just not fast enough for some.
Can you get any more over the top? There are people who consider it very much a D&D experience, you just disagree with that, none of us are the oracle of what true D&D is. Also those games you mentioned were all very much beloved by D&D fans, meaning just because Neverwinter doesn't please the comic book guy types doesn't mean that it isn't very successful.
No game will ever truely make a direct translation of D&D but for the most part DDO was pretty **** close. They did do some deviations which is expected but all in all they stayed as close as possible... unlike a complete disregard like in Neverwinter. DDO blows Neverwinter completely out of the water with which game provides a D&D experience. While you can create adventures on Neverwinter, it still does not have the capability it should nor did the develope a DM hosting capability which is what they need.
Your second part doesn't even relate to your quote of me. Where are the actual feats, show me where in the rulebooks where the powers actually resemble what is in the game, where is the thievery skills, the open world, dialogue options. World of D&D Wannabe is a more apt name for this game.
And those games in no shape or form ever really represented D&D, they were just.... dunno an arcade game and no one would call it a D&D game but just a console game. The fact remains that Cryptic DID market Neverwinter as being a true D&D experience and for D&D fans when the reality is that this is just yet another F2P cash shop MMO that abuses an IP.
People that really want the D&D experience stuck with DDO.
Anyway, I'm saying D20 SYSTEM. D& D use D20 system. I don't care if others games use it too.
And, pathfinder uses an OGL of the D20 system.
And for the folks that are saying that Neverwinter are just using a "new system", you are wrong.
Cryptic says "a game based in the rules of the forth edition". So, stop this lies about "new edition".
D&D existed long before D20 was a glint in a game designer's eye.
'Based on' does not mean 'the same as'. It means essentially 'inspired by'. How many movies 'based on' a true story do you think are precisely accurate to the actual events. The answer is very few at most, if any at all.
This is simply a new D&D version inspired partly by 4th ed., with many similarities in terms of simplicity vs. bloat to earlier D&D versions as well. If you can't see that, then you don't really know much about the history of D&D.
D&D existed long before D20 was a glint in a game designer's eye.
Yeah, a quick Google search shows that WotC published the "D20 System" in 2000. I'm pretty sure that D&D existed (in many forms - Basic, AD&D, the "gold box" CRPGs, Baldur's Gate, the arcade games, etc) before 2000.
D&D existed long before D20 was a glint in a game designer's eye.
'Based on' does not mean 'the same as'. It means essentially 'inspired by'. How many movies 'based on' a true story do you think are precisely accurate to the actual events. The answer is very few at most, if any at all.
This is simply a new D&D version inspired partly by 4th ed., with many similarities in terms of simplicity vs. bloat to earlier D&D versions as well. If you can't see that, then you don't really know much about the history of D&D.
LoL dude.
D& D was the base where the d20 system was build.
Every edition of D& D use d20. The first one include, even if the name "d20 system" comes later.
I think you did not play the pnp, bases in your statment.
And, ofc "inspired" does not means "the same". But it not mean "use the names only" neither.
Nevdrwinter should be based in the RULES of the forth edition, but it is not. Just names. The system don't feel like d& d, is not based in D20, . You just hit your target most of the times, and D& D sways have the chance to miss an attack. D& Armor don't give you damge reduction in d& d, it give you AC, armor class, a chance to avoid the attack.
The list goes on.
Neverwinter is not D& D, is not based in D& D rules, and don't have the feel of a d& d game at all.
Again, it is not the lack of classes. It is the **** system. Totally different.
Yeah, a quick Google search shows that WotC published the "D20 System" in 2000. I'm pretty sure that D&D existed (in many forms - Basic, AD&D, the "gold box" CRPGs, Baldur's Gate, the arcade games, etc) before 2000.
Quite correct. D&D came out originally in the '70s, a long time before WotC got their hands on it.
LoL dude.
D& D was the base where the d20 system was build.
Every edition of D& D use d20. The first one include, even if the name "d20 system" comes later.
I think you did not play the pnp, bases in your statment.
And, ofc "inspired" does not means "the same". But it not mean "use the names only" neither.
Nevdrwinter should be based in the RULES of the forth edition, but it is not. Just names. The system don't feel like d& d, is not based in D20, . You just hit your target most of the times, and D& D sways have the chance to miss an attack. D& Armor don't give you damge reduction in d& d, it give you AC, armor class, a chance to avoid the attack.
The list goes on.
Neverwinter is not D& D, is not based in D& D rules, and don't have the feel of a d& d game at all.
Again, it is not the lack of classes. It is the **** system. Totally different.
Yup. This^
Always been D20, even if the "system" wasnt named. Argue-ably the single biggest issue with this game. It doesn't use the nearly perfect D20 system. Among other things..
LoL dude.
D& D was the base where the d20 system was build.
Every edition of D& D use d20. The first one include, even if the name "d20 system" comes later.
I think you did not play the pnp, bases in your statment.
That the d20 has always been used in D&D in no way suggests it was the base for the D20 system. D&D didn't even have the D20 system in earlier editions. That system is a relatively modern invention compared to that of the D&D game.
I started play with AD&D 1st Ed. in the early 80s and branched out from there to Basic D&D, Tunnels and Trolls, Runequest, Gammaworld, Champions, Call of Cthulhu, Rolemaster, and others. I looked at D&D 3, which was so poorly crafted that it had to be replaced by 3.5 shortly after, and found the amount of minutia in the system not to my taste. I pretty much gave D&D a skip over when I saw how far it had departed from earlier editions of the rules. I'll be looking at D&D 5 to see where the game is taken next.
I've been role-playing for over 30 years, which I suspect may very well be longer than you have been alive.
And, ofc "inspired" does not means "the same". But it not mean "use the names only" neither.
Actually, if often does, in the movies especially. The term is applied quite loosely.
Nevdrwinter should be based in the RULES of the forth edition, but it is not. Just names. The system don't feel like d& d, is not based in D20, . You just hit your target most of the times, and D& D sways have the chance to miss an attack. D& Armor don't give you damge reduction in d& d, it give you AC, armor class, a chance to avoid the attack.
Neverwinter is not D& D, is not based in D& D rules, and don't have the feel of a d& d game at all.
Again, it is not the lack of classes. It is the **** system. Totally different.
Neverwinter is D&D, just a new version of it. New things are introduced to D&D all the time, and it doesn't automatically make it no D&D, just because the game is different from what it was before.
At one time demihumans and class were one in the same. At one time demihumans could multiclass but humans instead had to have multiple classes, and the two things were not at all the same. At one time nobody had skills other thieves and thief-like classes, at one time there were class and level limits based on race. At one time there were no feats. At one time there were no at-wills, encounters, and dailies. At one time spell casters could only cast a certain amount of spells per day of each spell level based on character level. At one time there were the combat charts, then THAC0, then the D20 system, none of which being the same as the other.
D&D has never been just one way of doing things, and has greatly changed over time, and will continue to greatly change in the future. You would do well to know more about the history of the game before you make your declarations.
Always been D20, even if the "system" wasnt named. Argue-ably the single biggest issue with this game. It doesn't use the nearly perfect D20 system. Among other things..
You are wrong. Learn the history of D&D before you declare what it always was.
You are wrong. Learn the history of D&D before you declare what it always was.
So im looking at my players manual right now, written by GG in 1974. And in the table of contents page 13. It states the following dice are required to play the Dungeons and Dragons Role Playing game.
D4
D6
D8
D12
D20
This is the D20 system as i have always known it. Am i wrong?. This may not be the very first PHB, not sure. But its 2013 now..... 1974-2013 DnD used those dice...The D20 system...Until this game of course. *grinz*
The D20 system has always been a defining factor of a DnD tabletop or video game.
So im looking at my players manual right now, written by GG in 1974. And in the table of contents page 13. It states the following dice are required to play the Dungeons and Dragones Role Playing game.
D4
D6
D8
D12
D20
This is the D20 system as i have always known it. Am i wrong?. This may not be the very first PHB, not sure. But its 2013 now..... 1974-2013 DnD used those dice...The D20 system...Until this game of course. *grinz*
The D20 system has always been a defining factor of a DnD tabletop or video game.
That the game always used a d20 doesn't mean it was always the D20 System. It is one die used of many. It never defined anything about D&D, other than it used other than d6. By your logic it could be the D4 system, or D6 system, etc. as the game always used those dice and are mentioned in the list you provide.
Don't confuse a type of die for the game system that bears a name related to that die, a system that spawned more than 20 years after the D&D game itself.
That the game always used a d20 doesn't mean it was always the D20 System. It is one die used of many. It never defined anything about D&D, other than it used other than d6. By your logic it could be the D4 system, or D6 system, etc. as the game always used those dice and are mentioned in the list you provide.
Don't confuse a type of die for the game system that bears a name related to that die, a system that spawned more than 20 years after the D&D game itself.
Your kidding me right?, Pulling my leg maybe? Are you suggesting that the d20 system has never been the d20 system?
.. never-mind, moot point mate. This game doesn't use it and should. imho.
Your kidding me right?, Pulling my leg maybe? Are you suggesting that the d20 system has never been the d20 system?
.. never-mind, moot point mate. This game doesn't use it and should. imho.
I'm telling you that a game using a d20 doesn't make it the D20 System. If you actually read through the rules of AD&D you'll find they have nothing to do with the D20 system other than the d20 is used in both.
With your logic, the first version of Gammaworld was part of the D20 system because it used a d20, even though it has even less to do with the D20 System.
Your kidding me right?, Pulling my leg maybe? Are you suggesting that the d20 system has never been the d20 system?
.. never-mind, moot point mate. This game doesn't use it and should. imho.
I'm guessing that he is referring to the "d20 System" as created in 2000 by WotC.
Rather than the various incarnations of the "D&D rules" which also happened to use d20s for some actions.
I'm guessing that he is referring to the "d20 System" as created in 2000 by WotC.
Rather than the various incarnations of the "D&D rules" which also happened to use d20s for some actions.
He is trying to suggest that D&D has always been the D20 System despite the facts to the contrary.
Comments
Yes similar in the vaguest sense if you are a min/maxer and yes those mechanics were very trivialized, lets not forget the non-visible cloaks, no true animal companion for rangers etc etc....peopel always forget that when they are holding DDO up against Neverwinter.
see this is opinion and while I respect the opinion I disagree with it, they disregarded 1st edition-3.5 mechanics, the streamlined the 4e ruleset to work in an action MMO environment, could they have done more? Certainly, but the game is far from over and updates will occur. They said from point go that they were coming out with the base game and use player feedback to tweak it and that seems to be what's happening just not fast enough for some.
Can you get any more over the top? There are people who consider it very much a D&D experience, you just disagree with that, none of us are the oracle of what true D&D is. Also those games you mentioned were all very much beloved by D&D fans, meaning just because Neverwinter doesn't please the comic book guy types doesn't mean that it isn't very successful.
There is no D& D without d20 system. D20 system is what make any game a D& D game.
I play it for about 16 years. I love the forth edition. It's diferent, but still d& d, still d20.
The problem with neverwinter is NOT the lack o's classes, is NOT the f
act that clerics don't use plates. Who cares about plates?
The problem is the System. Attack and def. system.
Itemization. The worse think about neverwinter.
I agree that D& D video games are not equals. But they have some characteristics that make they feel like a d& d game.
Neverwinter lacks everything that make s a d& d game.
I know many people in my D&D group that says anything other than 1st edition isn't D&D, it is just as ridiculous as what you said. D&D is many things to many different people just like Star wars.
Even when the first news about game mechanincs and classes start to popup me and many others (probably pnp players like myself) start to warning about what was wrong, guess they never listened to us. As an example is the classes, for cryptic to be able to add all classes ingame with the current build (devoted cleric, war cleric, etc...) they will have to build like +20 classes for this game just from player handbook 1. it was a BIG mistake.... why ? because now people are complaining theres not much costumization to ur character... Why ? Because a control wizard is only supose to control.... if i want dps i will get some other classes. They should have build just a wizard and then u decide which especialization u wanted to follow. this is just an example how bad the game design is atm.
Exacly, like i said im following the for 3 years now and its because is a D&D game, not because is another MMO in the market... The only thing that keep me arround is because i rly think the game have a huge potencial, the combat is amazing, the best ive seen in 10 years of my MMO's experience but its all about that. I think cryptic should rly start to think about making some real changes about the game mechanics and about end game aswell.
I will be arround to see, even if im not playing the game anymore
TL;DR
What is a D&D? A miserable little pile of secrets! Maybe you should look in the mirror before casting judgement on others, because you are really just hurting yourself.
All the WoW servers have at least one variation of "Drizzt". So don't forget that WoW (along with every other MMO with a player named Drizzt) is also D&D. Oh, I just adopted a black cat and named it Guenhwyver, so real life is D&D now, too.
Pathfinder uses d20. GURPS uses d20. But they're not D&D......
ROFL
GURPS use d20? GURPS only use 3d6 dude.
Anyway, I'm saying D20 SYSTEM. D& D use D20 system. I don't care if others games use it too.
And, pathfinder uses an OGL of the D20 system.
And for the folks that are saying that Neverwinter are just using a "new system", you are wrong.
Cryptic says "a game based in the rules of the forth edition". So, stop this lies about "new edition".
Neverwinter is not based in ANY rule of the forth edition. They are only using NAMES.
@Khatzhas DDO IS BASED in the D20 system. Hell you can see the dice roling in each attack.
The foundry is severely limited and minimal at best. I like the foundry but its 1/10 of what it needs to be to satisfy DnD traditionalists.
If the foundry was like an entire in game NWN2 console. Now weve got something.
No game will ever truely make a direct translation of D&D but for the most part DDO was pretty **** close. They did do some deviations which is expected but all in all they stayed as close as possible... unlike a complete disregard like in Neverwinter. DDO blows Neverwinter completely out of the water with which game provides a D&D experience. While you can create adventures on Neverwinter, it still does not have the capability it should nor did the develope a DM hosting capability which is what they need.
Your second part doesn't even relate to your quote of me. Where are the actual feats, show me where in the rulebooks where the powers actually resemble what is in the game, where is the thievery skills, the open world, dialogue options. World of D&D Wannabe is a more apt name for this game.
And those games in no shape or form ever really represented D&D, they were just.... dunno an arcade game and no one would call it a D&D game but just a console game. The fact remains that Cryptic DID market Neverwinter as being a true D&D experience and for D&D fans when the reality is that this is just yet another F2P cash shop MMO that abuses an IP.
People that really want the D&D experience stuck with DDO.
D&D existed long before D20 was a glint in a game designer's eye.
'Based on' does not mean 'the same as'. It means essentially 'inspired by'. How many movies 'based on' a true story do you think are precisely accurate to the actual events. The answer is very few at most, if any at all.
This is simply a new D&D version inspired partly by 4th ed., with many similarities in terms of simplicity vs. bloat to earlier D&D versions as well. If you can't see that, then you don't really know much about the history of D&D.
People that really want the true, full D&D experience stuck with pnp.
The D&D experience cant really be replicated in a MMO due to the difference in the mediums.
Yeah, a quick Google search shows that WotC published the "D20 System" in 2000. I'm pretty sure that D&D existed (in many forms - Basic, AD&D, the "gold box" CRPGs, Baldur's Gate, the arcade games, etc) before 2000.
LoL dude.
D& D was the base where the d20 system was build.
Every edition of D& D use d20. The first one include, even if the name "d20 system" comes later.
I think you did not play the pnp, bases in your statment.
And, ofc "inspired" does not means "the same". But it not mean "use the names only" neither.
Nevdrwinter should be based in the RULES of the forth edition, but it is not. Just names. The system don't feel like d& d, is not based in D20, . You just hit your target most of the times, and D& D sways have the chance to miss an attack. D& Armor don't give you damge reduction in d& d, it give you AC, armor class, a chance to avoid the attack.
The list goes on.
Neverwinter is not D& D, is not based in D& D rules, and don't have the feel of a d& d game at all.
Again, it is not the lack of classes. It is the **** system. Totally different.
Quite correct. D&D came out originally in the '70s, a long time before WotC got their hands on it.
Yup. This^
Always been D20, even if the "system" wasnt named. Argue-ably the single biggest issue with this game. It doesn't use the nearly perfect D20 system. Among other things..
That the d20 has always been used in D&D in no way suggests it was the base for the D20 system. D&D didn't even have the D20 system in earlier editions. That system is a relatively modern invention compared to that of the D&D game.
I started play with AD&D 1st Ed. in the early 80s and branched out from there to Basic D&D, Tunnels and Trolls, Runequest, Gammaworld, Champions, Call of Cthulhu, Rolemaster, and others. I looked at D&D 3, which was so poorly crafted that it had to be replaced by 3.5 shortly after, and found the amount of minutia in the system not to my taste. I pretty much gave D&D a skip over when I saw how far it had departed from earlier editions of the rules. I'll be looking at D&D 5 to see where the game is taken next.
I've been role-playing for over 30 years, which I suspect may very well be longer than you have been alive.
Actually, if often does, in the movies especially. The term is applied quite loosely.
Neverwinter is D&D, just a new version of it. New things are introduced to D&D all the time, and it doesn't automatically make it no D&D, just because the game is different from what it was before.
At one time demihumans and class were one in the same. At one time demihumans could multiclass but humans instead had to have multiple classes, and the two things were not at all the same. At one time nobody had skills other thieves and thief-like classes, at one time there were class and level limits based on race. At one time there were no feats. At one time there were no at-wills, encounters, and dailies. At one time spell casters could only cast a certain amount of spells per day of each spell level based on character level. At one time there were the combat charts, then THAC0, then the D20 system, none of which being the same as the other.
D&D has never been just one way of doing things, and has greatly changed over time, and will continue to greatly change in the future. You would do well to know more about the history of the game before you make your declarations.
So im looking at my players manual right now, written by GG in 1974. And in the table of contents page 13. It states the following dice are required to play the Dungeons and Dragons Role Playing game.
D4
D6
D8
D12
D20
This is the D20 system as i have always known it. Am i wrong?. This may not be the very first PHB, not sure. But its 2013 now..... 1974-2013 DnD used those dice...The D20 system...Until this game of course. *grinz*
The D20 system has always been a defining factor of a DnD tabletop or video game.
In DDO, the to-hit roll is a percentage roll based on several factors that is only rounded off to the nearest 5% in order to display it to the player.
That the game always used a d20 doesn't mean it was always the D20 System. It is one die used of many. It never defined anything about D&D, other than it used other than d6. By your logic it could be the D4 system, or D6 system, etc. as the game always used those dice and are mentioned in the list you provide.
Don't confuse a type of die for the game system that bears a name related to that die, a system that spawned more than 20 years after the D&D game itself.
Your kidding me right?, Pulling my leg maybe? Are you suggesting that the d20 system has never been the d20 system?
.. never-mind, moot point mate. This game doesn't use it and should. imho.
I'm telling you that a game using a d20 doesn't make it the D20 System. If you actually read through the rules of AD&D you'll find they have nothing to do with the D20 system other than the d20 is used in both.
With your logic, the first version of Gammaworld was part of the D20 system because it used a d20, even though it has even less to do with the D20 System.
Rather than the various incarnations of the "D&D rules" which also happened to use d20s for some actions.
He is trying to suggest that D&D has always been the D20 System despite the facts to the contrary.