It's not D&D - it's Champions at a Ren Faire, with less flexibility. Even uses a lot of the same emote animations and commands.
LOL my champions chars actually SAID they were going to ren-faire when I went to the beta weekends
but most licensed mmos seem to have similar issues. LOTRO people whined it was just wow with hobbits, sto people are constantly saying its nothing like star trek, TOR the starwars fanbois kept complaining because they used "non cannon" aspects which was funny since they claimed the old republic games were not cannon.
people see a license and figure they are entitled to what they imagine the license to entail. no MMO will ever be d&d DDO wasn't either. it would just be to hard to please everyone. Thid game however has the potential given time to be d&d...like if they intro a new race/class every few months bring in new areas and new events, if they apply what they have in CO and STO and expand costumes/emotes/pet customization keep adding new professions... id like to see enchanting after the weapon ones. break down stuff and make enhancments or temp buffs.
but yes its not d&d.... but give it time cause its still a good game.
This is a misnomer, and I am starting to realize that you either never played DDO or did not play it for any length of time at this point, and I know for a fact that you did not play a trapper. In counter to that, I played DDO for 3 years, and like most long standing players of DDO I had my completionist project underway, and one of my lives was as a rogue, and the truth is most rogues did not have max skills in trapping, instead most were assassins because the game did not require you to min/max out a skill to have a good use of it.
Due to Bravery bonus, tomes of learning etc, as well as TRing, much of the dungeons are run on Elite for preference, Hard if necessary, and Normal only if you can't find an opener or are soloing it as a new player.
Elite at-level, a few skill points in Search aren't going to do you much good: you will need some combination of high base stat, max or close skill ranks and an item near to your level. You don't have to max out the bonus by taking mechanic and all enhancements available for it, but you do need some level of focus.
Remember that the Assassins that you talk about probably did have close to max Search, Disable etc since they would have high Int.
I think the power gamers and other people you talked to were either ill-informed, or they were just having some fun at your expense about min/maxing in DDO, In fact, a more spread stat score with a more diverse portfolio of skills were your best bet if you ever planned to play in any serious manner in DDO, especially in BYOH groups, and that did happen a lot.
Designing a character capable of functioning even after using Silver Flame pots and enemy debuffs, putting your skill points into UMD rather than class skills, or using specific race or class combinations are all forms on min/maxing. The idea is to squeeze the maximum effectiveness out with the minimum of weaknesses, and it is generally something that you have to have an idea of right at character creation.
One of the premier melee builds for example: The Juggernaut, is actually 16 levels of caster, with a couple of 2-level splashes of melee class.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited June 2013
. . . . . D&D relates differently to each individual. To me, Neverwinter Online is a form of D&D and one I thoroughly enjoy, being a DM of an on-going Forgotten Realms Campaign for nearly two decades now... with almost all the same players.
Yes, it does have a "D&D Glaze coat" over it, but, I think it's a pretty alright awesome ARPG.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2013
The rules of D&D change.
Fact of the matter is a direct translation of the D&D Pen and Paper Rules can not work in an MMO. Dungeons and Dragons just is not balanced enough. Even DDO is only masking the rules they created to appear like D&D.
There's some elements I want added and expanded but Neverwinter is Dungeons and Dragons. Heck tear the rules apart as you want this team made the game more by the books in lore and visuals than any other Dungeons and Dragons game has previously. That's what matters to me.
Some things could be better here...
But many things are already better here. It is all a matter of what matters to you in your definition of D&D.
PS - It's also important to stress that players at least look at Fourth Edition before critiquing the mechanics. The Fourth Edition Mechanics alone are vastly different than any other D&D Edition.
Seriously, if even half of the people on these forums who are proclaiming their love for DDO actually thought it was worth the subscription fee back in the day, then it would have never gone f2p and start this whole trend.
Due to Bravery bonus, tomes of learning etc, as well as TRing, much of the dungeons are run on Elite for preference, Hard if necessary, and Normal only if you can't find an opener or are soloing it as a new player.
Point of Reference - None of that was available when the game went F2P 3 years ago.
Not to be rude, but a few other minor points:
If you are TRing, or planning to, you should be a little past the "getting stonewalled at 10th" problem.
Also, iirc, You said you soloed. As a F2P player, you would not be able to open beyond Normal, and on top of that, as a rogue or a ranger, the truth is, you should not really need to worry about traps with an investment in Reflex Save as Evasion would remove the need for disarming.
And finally, lets be real here, First life toons didn't need Bravery or Tomes to quickly level, there is more then enough content to handle a first life toon, and from my 3 years playing, most first time/first life players made 20th without doing a good half the content available in the game (Abeit, a lot of times it is because they had not bought it), it is only on the second and 3rd+ life that EXP grinding becomes an issue. In fact, as a first life toon, if you were skilled at playing an MMO, you could have just joined a TR run, and hung back a bit, and just played the "Stay alive game" and the exp would have been sick.
I took many first time players in my groups (strange, but ask anyone, I was not a hard core player, I was relaxed about having fun) and was more then happy to show new players the ropes.
Elite at-level, a few skill points in Search aren't going to do you much good: you will need some combination of high base stat, max or close skill ranks and an item near to your level. You don't have to max out the bonus by taking mechanic and all enhancements available for it, but you do need some level of focus.
That is "Elite" and again, not to be rude but if you are not ready for Elite, you should not be doing it. Personally, I think the idea that First life = Normal, second = hard, and 3rd+ = Elite was a good benchmark that was set up by DDO in regards to being able to open a dungeon.
I always felt rather bad how the formites and population kept trying to push elite runs on everyone. I would join normal/hard runs (after I did elite for bravery because my main was on their 7th life) for the fun of it, and to run with other players. But really, it was never needed by new players, too bad the idea that others forced people to feel like needed to do elite to be of any worth really spoiled a lot of the fun the game could be.
Remember that the Assassins that you talk about probably did have close to max Search, Disable etc since they would have high Int.
Let be fair here, A rogue gets a metric ton of skill points, and most Rogues put some investment into Int (As all their prestige enhancements depended on it, and a good chunk of their skills) you would have to put in effort to not have maxed your principal skills.
In my years playing DDO, most first life rogues I met had more a HP problem, never a Skill Point problem, just saying. I did meet a few "I'm a DPS rogue" players, but for some reason or another, that moment was a flash in the pan kind of thing, but I think that was moer due to the volume of people splashing Monk and Rogue into their builds, if not for the skill points, then for the evasion. LOL.
Designing a character capable of functioning even after using Silver Flame pots and enemy debuffs, putting your skill points into UMD rather than class skills, or using specific race or class combinations are all forms on min/maxing. The idea is to squeeze the maximum effectiveness out with the minimum of weaknesses, and it is generally something that you have to have an idea of right at character creation.
That was a product of players trying to do more with their class then their class really was designed to do. IE: to move away from the Min/Max idea and branch off into an more well rounded build, a build that could everything, which is by it's ideal, purpose, and motive is the exact opposite of what Min/Max is about.
Min/Max means to forsake everything (The Min) to Boost one thing to it's utmost ability (The Max). IE: The fighter that can't do anything but hit a mob really, really, super hard, is a Min/Max build.
The fighter that has an IQ above plant life, can use scrolls, wands, and a slew of everything and anything to overcome an obstetrical is a Jack of All trades, the very antagonist of the Min/Max style of play.
However, the 3x rules were in no way balanced at all, and that was a major issue in DDO as the game grew older, players did not want to have classes with massive dependencies to them, and Neverwinter is not much better in that regard, I need to chug pots or get a healer for my melee, same boat up the same stinky creek.
One of the premier melee builds for example: The Juggernaut, is actually 16 levels of caster, with a couple of 2-level splashes of melee class.
Seriously, if even half of the people on these forums who are proclaiming their love for DDO actually thought it was worth the subscription fee back in the day, then it would have never gone f2p and start this whole trend.
Did anyone say they loved DDO? I missed that memo.
Most of us left for one reason or another, I bet a few of us play both games as the mood strikes us, for me, I left a while ago, it was the grind (burn out mainly) and many other little things, (hey it was a few years, the little things added up), it was not because the game did not capture the spirit of DnD. I gladly played it for 3 years and subbed DDO by the end of my first week playing it, I kept an active Annual ViP sub for 2 years, and then I swapped over to Premium, and bought the game piecemeal, I even bought the big bad deluxe expansion pack of the Menace of the Underdark (pre-order even). I spent my money there freely as I was having fun. When I stopped having fun (Burned out) I left.
The only real thing that matters is do you see yourself doing the same for Neverwinter?
Did anyone say they loved DDO? I missed that memo.
Most of us left for one reason or another, I bet a few of us play both games as the mood strikes us, for me, I left a while ago, it was the grind (burn out mainly) and many other little things, (hey it was a few years, the little things added up), it was not because the game did not capture the spirit of DnD. I gladly played it for 3 years and subbed DDO by the end of my first week playing it, I kept an active Annual ViP sub for 2 years, and then I swapped over to Premium, and bought the game piecemeal, I even bought the big bad deluxe expansion pack of the Menace of the Underdark (pre-order even). I spent my money there freely as I was having fun. When I stopped having fun (Burned out) I left.
The only real thing that matters is do you see yourself doing the same for Neverwinter?
First off, "lovin on" and "loved" are two different things. So I'm not sure what memo you were looking for.
Secondly, that's all great and all about you playing it for years, but my point was when the game REALLY needed subscribers, there weren't very many. And one of the many common complaints was, indeed, that it wasn't D&D enough.
Thirdly, can't do the same in Neverwinter, there is no subscription.
Did you know: that when DDO was released, there literally wasn't any end game? (Which was lv10 at the time) The Dragon raid released 3 weeks or so after launch.
Did you know: that after DDO was released, Turbine released new content for it on a monthly basis for the first 6 months?(And still couldn't keep subs).
Man I had some great times in the game. Giant cave loot runs.....Co6 loot runs....Gary Gygax narrating Delora's Tomb ( I think that's the name)......good stuff. I loved that game. There, I said it.
First off, "lovin on" and "loved" are two different things. So I'm not sure what memo you were looking for.
Secondly, that's all great and all about you playing it for years, but my point was when the game REALLY needed subscribers, there weren't very many. And one of the many common complaints was, indeed, that it wasn't D&D enough.
Thirdly, can't do the same in Neverwinter, there is no subscription.
Did you know: that when DDO was released, there literally wasn't any end game? The Dragon raid released 3 weeks or so after launch.
Did you know: that after DDO was released, Turbine released new content for it on a monthly basis for the first 6 months?
Man I had some great times in the game. Giant cave loot runs.....Co6 loot runs....Gary Gygax narrating Delora's Tomb ( I think that's the name)......good stuff
First- If you are going to say something is "different" then you should explain how.
Secondly - really, I thought the main problem was it's total lack of advertisement, as I never head of it till it went F2P. And lets be real here, most DnD franchise stuff sucks as it depends on the name "Dungeons and Dragons" to entice people to buy it, and it is normally the practice of putting a pile of poo in a bag and calling by a franchise name to sell it that leaves very jaded people unwilling to invest money into yet "another fail"
Third - You can still "Buy" the game in Neverwinter (I notice your Hero title missing, and I bet you don't have the spider mount, you see, my Panther Pet wasn't missing in DDO ) but none the less, it was more the idea that I dropped the dime for an annual sub, because I saw myself being around for a while. So Guess, rephrased, Do you see yourself playing for the next year, enough to put some money on it?
First- If you are going to say something is "different" then you should explain how.
Secondly - really, I thought the main problem was it's total lack of advertisement, as I never head of it till it went F2P. And lets be real here, most DnD franchise stuff sucks as it depends on the name "Dungeons and Dragons" to entice people to buy it, and it is normally the practice of putting a pile of poo in a bag and calling by a franchise name to sell it that leaves very jaded people unwilling to invest money into yet "another fail"
Third - You can still "Buy" the game in Neverwinter (I notice your Hero title missing, and I bet you don't have the spider mount, you see, my Panther Pet wasn't missing in DDO ) but none the less, it was more the idea that I dropped the dime for an annual sub, because I saw myself being around for a while. So Guess, rephrased, Do you see yourself playing for the next year, enough to put some money on it?
1) If you don't know the difference, I'm not really sure I can explain it to you on these forums. I guess you can say "lovin on" is an action in the present, "loved" is the past.
2) Advertising only works for new players. And the company needed money to be able to do that. They couldn't keep the players they already had. "Not D&D enough" was one of the issues, no end game was another, and then there were many who just didn't like Ebberon. Personally, I wasn't to fond of the setting either, since I grew up on Greyhawk.
3) Do I see myself playing for the next year? Well, that depends on where Cryptic takes the game. Maybe so, maybe not. But that has nothing to do with spending money. And please, just because you don't see a title, don't assume that someone hasn't spent any money.
1) If you don't know the difference, I'm not really sure I can explain it to you on these forums. I guess you can say "lovin on" is an action in the present, "loved" is the past.
In that regard, I don't see either of those on these forums. To say that one game made more an effort to abide by the 3x rules is not loving on, or have loved it, it is simply a matter of fact, and it would be expected to compare Neverwinter to other DnD MMO's and games out there. As it stands, DDO is afaik is the only other DnD MMO, so comparisons are going to happen between the two of them. I personally after burning out on DDO came here looking for a game to play and have some fun with, I walked in with the expectation that it was going to another Dungeons and Dragons MMO and I was excited to give it a go, kick back and have some fun.
After playing it, I feel that DDO did a better job of being more DnDish and less MMOish then Neverwinter. That is my take on aspect of the development of the game, otherwise, Neverwinter is a fine MMO, as far as MMO's go, so, there is no reason to not enjoy it for what it is, but a "Dungeons and Dragons Experience" is not what it is.
Point of Reference - None of that was available when the game went F2P 3 years ago.
I am aware, but we are discussing whether the "game is min/max number-cruncher hell", not whether it used to be 3 years ago. Now you fairly explicitly claim that Kiralyn knows nothing about DDO, and how much more experience you have of it, but despite also having less experience of the game than you, I don't agree with some of your comments.
Liralyn's comment is particularly close on the forums (which do tend to be more hardcore than average) where BYOH and similar practices are common.
Also, iirc, You said you soloed. As a F2P player, you would not be able to open beyond Normal, and on top of that, as a rogue or a ranger, the truth is, you should not really need to worry about traps with an investment in Reflex Save as Evasion would remove the need for disarming.
I said that Normal difficulty was generally regarded as for soloing. Personally, I almost exclusively PuG, so generally run quests on Hard or Elite.
Its actually rather hard to find a group for Normal difficulty.
That was a product of players trying to do more with their class then their class really was designed to do. IE: to move away from the Min/Max idea and branch off into an more well rounded build, a build that could everything, which is by it's ideal, purpose, and motive is the exact opposite of what Min/Max is about.
Min/Max means to forsake everything (The Min) to Boost one thing to it's utmost ability (The Max). IE: The fighter that can't do anything but hit a mob really, really, super hard, is a Min/Max build.
The fighter that has an IQ above plant life, can use scrolls, wands, and a slew of everything and anything to overcome an obstetrical is a Jack of All trades, the very antagonist of the Min/Max style of play.
It sounds like you have a rather different view of what min/maxing is than I do. As I stated, I think it is the attempt to maximise the power of a character while minimising its weaknesses. In some games, this might mean dumping everything into one stat, but in DDO where self-healing can be extremely important, concentrating on what the class purpose is and ignoring all other factors often weakens it more than strengthens it.
No idea if there is an official definition around, but that seems to match the general consensus.
The Juggernaut is a warforged 2-handed melee that generally splashes Paladin and Monk for save boosts and evasion, 16 levels of Artificer for buff spells, enhancements and repair spells, and relies upon the Epic Destiny for a lot of its actual melee power.
However, the 3x rules were in no way balanced at all, and that was a major issue in DDO as the game grew older, players did not want to have classes with massive dependencies to them, and Neverwinter is not much better in that regard, I need to chug pots or get a healer for my melee, same boat up the same stinky creek.
That may be more a function of the 4th Ed ruleset, which attempted to do away with the "healer" role that many people were complaining about on the WotC boards (and still do in DDO). In 4th Ed, healing is more of each character's responsibility and capability, using healing surges in the SATT game and plentiful potions in the MMO. The player Clerics are deliberately designed to not just be healbots, because there was a lot of pressure not to have them, and they can cause issues with the game when present.
It sounds like you have a rather different view of what min/maxing is than I do. As I stated, I think it is the attempt to maximise the power of a character while minimising its weaknesses.
It seems, we do, so I looked it up to see if maybe things have changed.
Min-maxing is the practice of playing a role-playing game, wargame or video game with the intent of creating the "best" character by means of minimizing undesired or unimportant traits and maximizing desired ones. This is usually accomplished by improving one specific trait or ability by sacrificing ability in all other fields.
Other terms are:
Optimization, in computer and table-top role-playing games, is a term intended to describe a play style or set of play styles alternately referred to by the termsmunchkin gaming, powergaming, min-maxing,"roll-playing", or twinking, but without the pejorative connotation of those terms. The core idea of optimization as a play style is that of deriving enjoyment from choosing and benefiting from the game mechanical options that best optimize one's character's performance for some specific purpose—most commonly, speed of power or wealth accumulation.
However, as good as Wikipedia is. this site, really explains Min.Max the best
The art, much beloved of munchkins, of optimizing a character's abilities during creation by maximizing the most important skills and attributes, while minimizing the cost. This is done by strategic decrease of stats believed to be less important in game (called "Dump Stats"), exploiting hideously overpowered but legal combinations of the Game System, obtaining the best toys and magic weapons accessible to a character, or by stacking flaws and handicaps until your character's Backstory looks like a Joss Whedon character's resume.
So, yes, we don't seem to use the term the same at all, and that can make for a very difficult discussion. In that spirit, I am just going to agree to disagree with you on that point.
Seriously, if even half of the people on these forums who are proclaiming their love for DDO actually thought it was worth the subscription fee back in the day, then it would have never gone f2p and start this whole trend.
Pretty much, I remember when DDO was referred to as Ken Troops folly/train wreck/disaster etc....and saw the exact same: "This isn't D&Dzor!!!!!" whines we see now. That is the life of a MMO though; it is released and everyone and his ugly sister hates on it, but let a similar MMO pop up a few years later and those exact same people will run to those forums and wail how the New MMO sucks and the old one was so superior. When CoH closed down two of it's biggest forum haters were right up there leading the "Save CoH" strike team.
It is both hilarious and pathetic and points to the very real fact that all of this hair pulling (be it X Game suxzorz! or Save Y Game now!!) is just internet churn without any real meaning
I have a friend who still plays DDO and she tells me that right now in game Neverwinter is pretty much the scapegoat for everything, it's kinda become their Goldstein. Honestly they are two different games I can't see why both can't do their thing without affecting the other.
I am aware, but we are discussing whether the "game is min/max number-cruncher hell", not whether it used to be 3 years ago.
No, We are discussing if Neverwinter is a real Dungeons and Dragons Experience, and DDO was mentioned because it is another DnD MMO.
Not to toss out cliche's but, every game is what you make of it, and thus any "Number crunching hell" you endured was of your own volition.
The reality is, AD&D - 1 - 3, gave an astounding amount of stuff for character development, a ton of rules, books, sources, and a very complex system surrounding it. This is a signature trait of PnP DnD. Because of that for some players the complexity of Character Building in AD&D became it's very own meta game in PnP. So, when DDO allowed for that same Meta Game in their MMO, it gave it a very, PnP DnD style of feel.
But like PnP, you never needed to get deep into the Meta game to just enjoy doing a dungeon, the truth is a decent build was in fact, "good enough" to enjoy most of the game just fine. So, again, that should not be an issue unless you want to get into that Meta game, and if you wanted to get into that Meta game of build a "best toon", it seems rather frivolous to then complain that you got wrapped up in that meta game. Just saying.
Personally, outside of the grind (which was a hallmark of dated MMO's, so we know why they did it) I think DDO's main fault was the Ebberon setting (Which I heard a lot of DnD Fans in and out game complain about, I don't get why, but, that is fandom for you)
The Juggernaut is a warforged 2-handed melee that generally splashes Paladin and Monk for save boosts and evasion, 16 levels of Artificer for buff spells, enhancements and repair spells, and relies upon the Epic Destiny for a lot of its actual melee power.
Eh, it looks decent enough. Just can't say I remember running with arties that liked using 2h weapons, they all seemed to get more mileage out of their Rune Arms, but that just goes to show that there was a great deal of diversity in DDO in regards to character building, and I will admit, I kinda wish Neverwinter embraced that dynamic as well.
A MMO that is a literal translation of the tabletop game would fail miserably.
Cant have a literal translation as it would be a turn based game. Many MUDs as well as NWN incorporated turn based mechanics (so many actions within 6 seconds of time) - but those were not MMOs. They were however, quite successful. Pathfinder is looking promising.
I am aware, but we are discussing whether the "game is min/max number-cruncher hell", not whether it used to be 3 years ago.
For the record, that period of a few months after it went f2p (before multiple-lives, before crafting your own enchanted weapons, I think before whatever "silver hand potions" are?) was when I played, and formed my impressions of the game (fun, interesting dungeons, very hard to get past lv10-12 unless you were hardcore & spent lots of $ so you actually had quests to do).
But like PnP, you never needed to get deep into the Meta game to just enjoy doing a dungeon, the truth is a decent build was in fact, "good enough" to enjoy most of the game just fine. So, again, that should not be an issue unless you want to get into that Meta game, and if you wanted to get into that Meta game of build a "best toon", it seems rather frivolous to then complain that you got wrapped up in that meta game. Just saying.
The reason metagaming & min-max/"roll"-playing isn't as necessary in PnP is because the GM can alter stuff on the fly, can make allowances for the fact that your party doesn't have an ideal mix of classes/rolled terrible stats/has 2 healing potions between everyone. In a computer game, that doesn't happen - the adventure is what the adventure is.... if your party is non-standard, if your characters aren't Well Built, if your gear isn't the best throwing millions of plat at the auction can get - well, you're screwed. The game isn't going to adjust for you, you need to either go back to the drawing board with a proper build cribbed from the class forums and/or grind lower level stuff a heck of alot more so that you can improve your gear.
It seems, we do, so I looked it up to see if maybe things have changed.
So, yes, we don't seem to use the term the same at all, and that can make for a very difficult discussion. In that spirit, I am just going to agree to disagree with you on that point.
Yep. Looks like the disagreement was just down to clash of different personal definitions. Just like the rest of this thread.
No, We are discussing if Neverwinter is a real Dungeons and Dragons Experience, and DDO was mentioned because it is another DnD MMO.
Not to toss out cliche's but, every game is what you make of it, and thus any "Number crunching hell" you endured was of your own volition.
To clarify if needed, I was addressing your comments to Kiralyn regarding that phrase. I do not believe that the game is hell, but your comments dismissing his experience did not jibe with my experience of the game, as well as being rather offensive. Hence why I relied to that post.
There is a lot of optimising in DDO, and the game can be very harsh to new players trying to get into it, but I still enjoy playing it.
Personally, outside of the grind (which was a hallmark of dated MMO's, so we know why they did it) I think DDO's main fault was the Ebberon setting (Which I heard a lot of DnD Fans in and out game complain about, I don't get why, but, that is fandom for you)
Eberron is one of the reasons that I play it. I was rather disappointed when they switched to Forgotten Realms.
Eh, it looks decent enough. Just can't say I remember running with arties that liked using 2h weapons, they all seemed to get more mileage out of their Rune Arms, but that just goes to show that there was a great deal of diversity in DDO in regards to character building, and I will admit, I kinda wish Neverwinter embraced that dynamic as well.
Its basically a development of the BYOH mindset that requires you to be self-sufficient or you won't be allowed in the group. Epic destinies are generally very powerful, and melee classes are generally weak, so the straight melee class isn't much better at melee despite the Juggernaut being mostly caster.
Its probably the most extreme example of a class built from creation to take advantage of specific mechanics. Another would be the sorceror built to throw out as many magic missiles and similar multi-projectile spells as fast as possible to utilise a destiny with random effects on each hit.
The reason metagaming & min-max/"roll"-playing isn't as necessary in PnP is because the GM can alter stuff on the fly, can make allowances for the fact that your party doesn't have an ideal mix of classes/rolled terrible stats/has 2 healing potions between everyone. In a computer game, that doesn't happen - the adventure is what the adventure is.... if your party is non-standard, if your characters aren't Well Built, if your gear isn't the best throwing millions of plat at the auction can get - well, you're screwed. The game isn't going to adjust for you, you need to either go back to the drawing board with a proper build cribbed from the class forums and/or grind lower level stuff a heck of alot more so that you can improve your gear.
In terms of gear, a dungeon has a gear score minimum to get in, you shouldn't need everyone to have a max gearscore.
Non-standard build probably works best in a regular party that knows how to compensate. Of course, decent game design would allow for more than one viable build.
It would be nice if CWs, could choose Frost, Storm or Arcane. At the moment, the only viable option is Arcane Singularity.
PS - It's also important to stress that players at least look at Fourth Edition before critiquing the mechanics. The Fourth Edition Mechanics alone are vastly different than any other D&D Edition.
For 4e, it's less that it's not balanced enough (for PvE, anyway. PvP in 4e is "the guy who hits with a Daily first wins" largely because the game wasn't designed for PvP, which is a bit of an oversight considering how many times obnoxious party members turn on their "allies") and more that the implementation would be crazy, particularly for Defenders due to their proliferation of off-turn actions.
For example, a Swordmage (Arcane Defender) could have the power to attack one enemy, then teleport across the battlefield to attack another, then when a third attacks the Cleric, he can use another power to teleport and attack again. Most Defenders also get other powers that activate only when an ally gets hit so they can charge to the rescue, sometimes negating the attack. The level of control, situational awareness, and sense of timing needed to use those abilities in a real-time environment is beyond what any developer could reasonably expect of its players... it'd be like assuming that all of the players for that class are also top-level competitors in national or world-level fighting game championships.
largely because the game wasn't designed for PvP, which is a bit of an oversight considering how many times obnoxious party members turn on their "allies")
Do people really fight within their party in tabletop that much? I think it happened once in all the years I played D&D.... and that was only in a freshman-year-college game, where people tried to do that "ooh, we're all intellectual college students now, lets make sure everyone has Hidden Motives And Objectives that conflict with the party! Aren't we so sophisticated!" thing. Which, of course, ended with the entire party dead before the end of the first play session, followed swiftly by everyone abandoning that DM/campaign/mindset and going back to playing RPGs as a party of heroes.
krahctMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
LOL..I thought the title was exclaiming "No, This game is not Dead" I was curious to see who thought it was dead and why. It's not dead yet, but it's got one foot in the grave.
IMO, the game is BASED ON D&D, it IS NOT D&D. What is D&D? Is it a game like checkers, chess, stratego? Nope, it's a tabletop game with a clear set of rules that are recommeded to be followed the rest is the creativity of the players. This is not a tabletop game, it does have elements of the D&D ruleset, has some creatures based on D&D monster guide from blah blah version rules.
At the end of the day it's a game based on D&D, it's no more D&D that Knights of the Republic was Star Wars.
"I never make mistakes, I once thought I did but I was wrong"
Yep. Looks like the disagreement was just down to clash of different personal definitions. Just like the rest of this thread.
To clarify if needed, I was addressing your comments to Kiralyn regarding that phrase. I do not believe that the game is hell, but your comments dismissing his experience did not jibe with my experience of the game, as well as being rather offensive. Hence why I relied to that post.
There is a lot of optimising in DDO, and the game can be very harsh to new players trying to get into it, but I still enjoy playing it.
I will have to agree to disagree with you on this unless you opt to use the term as it applies by Wikipedia or the other sites I listed.
Its basically a development of the BYOH mindset that requires you to be self-sufficient or you won't be allowed in the group. Epic destinies are generally very powerful, and melee classes are generally weak, so the straight melee class isn't much better at melee despite the Juggernaut being mostly caster.
Its probably the most extreme example of a class built from creation to take advantage of specific mechanics. Another would be the sorceror built to throw out as many magic missiles and similar multi-projectile spells as fast as possible to utilise a destiny with random effects on each hit.
Meh, a Pure Arti was plenty self sufficient and very good DPS. I mean, I would have looked into the Tukaw if I was going to play a WF caster that wants to melee.
WF mixed with Arcane were like Fleshies Mixed with Divine.
Did a 12 fighter, 8 cleric , talk about being able to faceroll a dungeon, was looking into a 12 cleric/6 pally/2 monk for my 'Cleric Life' but I took a bet that I needed to play a "pure cleric" for my cleric life and Pug the whole way up.. I totally burned out at my Monk Life
I think any argument stating that the game isn't D&D enough is missing the entire point of D&D, which is included in this game as an underutilized feature known as the Foundry.
At the core of D&D (and every other knockoff D20 tabletop game) is the principal of a storyteller taking you through a world they created. I don't know. I've played D&D since second edition, and 4th edition bears about as much resemblance to 2nd edition as this game does to 4th.
I do agree with the complaints about lack of class diversity, but I get it... All that stuff has to be created. I think sometimes people forget all of that digital content has to be created. Granted, It is odd that if the other 2 classes were in closed beta they wouldn't be in now.
Comments
LOL my champions chars actually SAID they were going to ren-faire when I went to the beta weekends
but most licensed mmos seem to have similar issues. LOTRO people whined it was just wow with hobbits, sto people are constantly saying its nothing like star trek, TOR the starwars fanbois kept complaining because they used "non cannon" aspects which was funny since they claimed the old republic games were not cannon.
people see a license and figure they are entitled to what they imagine the license to entail. no MMO will ever be d&d DDO wasn't either. it would just be to hard to please everyone. Thid game however has the potential given time to be d&d...like if they intro a new race/class every few months bring in new areas and new events, if they apply what they have in CO and STO and expand costumes/emotes/pet customization keep adding new professions... id like to see enchanting after the weapon ones. break down stuff and make enhancments or temp buffs.
but yes its not d&d.... but give it time cause its still a good game.
Elite at-level, a few skill points in Search aren't going to do you much good: you will need some combination of high base stat, max or close skill ranks and an item near to your level. You don't have to max out the bonus by taking mechanic and all enhancements available for it, but you do need some level of focus.
Remember that the Assassins that you talk about probably did have close to max Search, Disable etc since they would have high Int.
Designing a character capable of functioning even after using Silver Flame pots and enemy debuffs, putting your skill points into UMD rather than class skills, or using specific race or class combinations are all forms on min/maxing. The idea is to squeeze the maximum effectiveness out with the minimum of weaknesses, and it is generally something that you have to have an idea of right at character creation.
One of the premier melee builds for example: The Juggernaut, is actually 16 levels of caster, with a couple of 2-level splashes of melee class.
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Fact of the matter is a direct translation of the D&D Pen and Paper Rules can not work in an MMO. Dungeons and Dragons just is not balanced enough. Even DDO is only masking the rules they created to appear like D&D.
There's some elements I want added and expanded but Neverwinter is Dungeons and Dragons. Heck tear the rules apart as you want this team made the game more by the books in lore and visuals than any other Dungeons and Dragons game has previously. That's what matters to me.
Some things could be better here...
But many things are already better here. It is all a matter of what matters to you in your definition of D&D.
PS - It's also important to stress that players at least look at Fourth Edition before critiquing the mechanics. The Fourth Edition Mechanics alone are vastly different than any other D&D Edition.
Someone promised you something differents from this?
Seriously, if even half of the people on these forums who are proclaiming their love for DDO actually thought it was worth the subscription fee back in the day, then it would have never gone f2p and start this whole trend.
Point of Reference - None of that was available when the game went F2P 3 years ago.
Not to be rude, but a few other minor points:
If you are TRing, or planning to, you should be a little past the "getting stonewalled at 10th" problem.
Also, iirc, You said you soloed. As a F2P player, you would not be able to open beyond Normal, and on top of that, as a rogue or a ranger, the truth is, you should not really need to worry about traps with an investment in Reflex Save as Evasion would remove the need for disarming.
And finally, lets be real here, First life toons didn't need Bravery or Tomes to quickly level, there is more then enough content to handle a first life toon, and from my 3 years playing, most first time/first life players made 20th without doing a good half the content available in the game (Abeit, a lot of times it is because they had not bought it), it is only on the second and 3rd+ life that EXP grinding becomes an issue. In fact, as a first life toon, if you were skilled at playing an MMO, you could have just joined a TR run, and hung back a bit, and just played the "Stay alive game" and the exp would have been sick.
I took many first time players in my groups (strange, but ask anyone, I was not a hard core player, I was relaxed about having fun) and was more then happy to show new players the ropes.
That is "Elite" and again, not to be rude but if you are not ready for Elite, you should not be doing it. Personally, I think the idea that First life = Normal, second = hard, and 3rd+ = Elite was a good benchmark that was set up by DDO in regards to being able to open a dungeon.
I always felt rather bad how the formites and population kept trying to push elite runs on everyone. I would join normal/hard runs (after I did elite for bravery because my main was on their 7th life) for the fun of it, and to run with other players. But really, it was never needed by new players, too bad the idea that others forced people to feel like needed to do elite to be of any worth really spoiled a lot of the fun the game could be.
Let be fair here, A rogue gets a metric ton of skill points, and most Rogues put some investment into Int (As all their prestige enhancements depended on it, and a good chunk of their skills) you would have to put in effort to not have maxed your principal skills.
In my years playing DDO, most first life rogues I met had more a HP problem, never a Skill Point problem, just saying. I did meet a few "I'm a DPS rogue" players, but for some reason or another, that moment was a flash in the pan kind of thing, but I think that was moer due to the volume of people splashing Monk and Rogue into their builds, if not for the skill points, then for the evasion. LOL.
That was a product of players trying to do more with their class then their class really was designed to do. IE: to move away from the Min/Max idea and branch off into an more well rounded build, a build that could everything, which is by it's ideal, purpose, and motive is the exact opposite of what Min/Max is about.
Min/Max means to forsake everything (The Min) to Boost one thing to it's utmost ability (The Max). IE: The fighter that can't do anything but hit a mob really, really, super hard, is a Min/Max build.
The fighter that has an IQ above plant life, can use scrolls, wands, and a slew of everything and anything to overcome an obstetrical is a Jack of All trades, the very antagonist of the Min/Max style of play.
However, the 3x rules were in no way balanced at all, and that was a major issue in DDO as the game grew older, players did not want to have classes with massive dependencies to them, and Neverwinter is not much better in that regard, I need to chug pots or get a healer for my melee, same boat up the same stinky creek.
Eh? Never heard of that one be honest
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Did anyone say they loved DDO? I missed that memo.
Most of us left for one reason or another, I bet a few of us play both games as the mood strikes us, for me, I left a while ago, it was the grind (burn out mainly) and many other little things, (hey it was a few years, the little things added up), it was not because the game did not capture the spirit of DnD. I gladly played it for 3 years and subbed DDO by the end of my first week playing it, I kept an active Annual ViP sub for 2 years, and then I swapped over to Premium, and bought the game piecemeal, I even bought the big bad deluxe expansion pack of the Menace of the Underdark (pre-order even). I spent my money there freely as I was having fun. When I stopped having fun (Burned out) I left.
The only real thing that matters is do you see yourself doing the same for Neverwinter?
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First off, "lovin on" and "loved" are two different things. So I'm not sure what memo you were looking for.
Secondly, that's all great and all about you playing it for years, but my point was when the game REALLY needed subscribers, there weren't very many. And one of the many common complaints was, indeed, that it wasn't D&D enough.
Thirdly, can't do the same in Neverwinter, there is no subscription.
Did you know: that when DDO was released, there literally wasn't any end game? (Which was lv10 at the time) The Dragon raid released 3 weeks or so after launch.
Did you know: that after DDO was released, Turbine released new content for it on a monthly basis for the first 6 months?(And still couldn't keep subs).
Man I had some great times in the game. Giant cave loot runs.....Co6 loot runs....Gary Gygax narrating Delora's Tomb ( I think that's the name)......good stuff. I loved that game. There, I said it.
First- If you are going to say something is "different" then you should explain how.
Secondly - really, I thought the main problem was it's total lack of advertisement, as I never head of it till it went F2P. And lets be real here, most DnD franchise stuff sucks as it depends on the name "Dungeons and Dragons" to entice people to buy it, and it is normally the practice of putting a pile of poo in a bag and calling by a franchise name to sell it that leaves very jaded people unwilling to invest money into yet "another fail"
Third - You can still "Buy" the game in Neverwinter (I notice your Hero title missing, and I bet you don't have the spider mount, you see, my Panther Pet wasn't missing in DDO
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1) If you don't know the difference, I'm not really sure I can explain it to you on these forums. I guess you can say "lovin on" is an action in the present, "loved" is the past.
2) Advertising only works for new players. And the company needed money to be able to do that. They couldn't keep the players they already had. "Not D&D enough" was one of the issues, no end game was another, and then there were many who just didn't like Ebberon. Personally, I wasn't to fond of the setting either, since I grew up on Greyhawk.
3) Do I see myself playing for the next year? Well, that depends on where Cryptic takes the game. Maybe so, maybe not. But that has nothing to do with spending money. And please, just because you don't see a title, don't assume that someone hasn't spent any money.
In that regard, I don't see either of those on these forums. To say that one game made more an effort to abide by the 3x rules is not loving on, or have loved it, it is simply a matter of fact, and it would be expected to compare Neverwinter to other DnD MMO's and games out there. As it stands, DDO is afaik is the only other DnD MMO, so comparisons are going to happen between the two of them. I personally after burning out on DDO came here looking for a game to play and have some fun with, I walked in with the expectation that it was going to another Dungeons and Dragons MMO and I was excited to give it a go, kick back and have some fun.
After playing it, I feel that DDO did a better job of being more DnDish and less MMOish then Neverwinter. That is my take on aspect of the development of the game, otherwise, Neverwinter is a fine MMO, as far as MMO's go, so, there is no reason to not enjoy it for what it is, but a "Dungeons and Dragons Experience" is not what it is.
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Liralyn's comment is particularly close on the forums (which do tend to be more hardcore than average) where BYOH and similar practices are common.
I said that Normal difficulty was generally regarded as for soloing. Personally, I almost exclusively PuG, so generally run quests on Hard or Elite.
Its actually rather hard to find a group for Normal difficulty.
It sounds like you have a rather different view of what min/maxing is than I do. As I stated, I think it is the attempt to maximise the power of a character while minimising its weaknesses. In some games, this might mean dumping everything into one stat, but in DDO where self-healing can be extremely important, concentrating on what the class purpose is and ignoring all other factors often weakens it more than strengthens it.
No idea if there is an official definition around, but that seems to match the general consensus.
The Juggernaut is a warforged 2-handed melee that generally splashes Paladin and Monk for save boosts and evasion, 16 levels of Artificer for buff spells, enhancements and repair spells, and relies upon the Epic Destiny for a lot of its actual melee power.
That may be more a function of the 4th Ed ruleset, which attempted to do away with the "healer" role that many people were complaining about on the WotC boards (and still do in DDO). In 4th Ed, healing is more of each character's responsibility and capability, using healing surges in the SATT game and plentiful potions in the MMO. The player Clerics are deliberately designed to not just be healbots, because there was a lot of pressure not to have them, and they can cause issues with the game when present.
It seems, we do, so I looked it up to see if maybe things have changed.
Other terms are:
However, as good as Wikipedia is. this site, really explains Min.Max the best
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MinMaxing
So, yes, we don't seem to use the term the same at all, and that can make for a very difficult discussion. In that spirit, I am just going to agree to disagree with you on that point.
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Pretty much, I remember when DDO was referred to as Ken Troops folly/train wreck/disaster etc....and saw the exact same: "This isn't D&Dzor!!!!!" whines we see now. That is the life of a MMO though; it is released and everyone and his ugly sister hates on it, but let a similar MMO pop up a few years later and those exact same people will run to those forums and wail how the New MMO sucks and the old one was so superior. When CoH closed down two of it's biggest forum haters were right up there leading the "Save CoH" strike team.
It is both hilarious and pathetic and points to the very real fact that all of this hair pulling (be it X Game suxzorz! or Save Y Game now!!) is just internet churn without any real meaning
I have a friend who still plays DDO and she tells me that right now in game Neverwinter is pretty much the scapegoat for everything, it's kinda become their Goldstein. Honestly they are two different games I can't see why both can't do their thing without affecting the other.
No, We are discussing if Neverwinter is a real Dungeons and Dragons Experience, and DDO was mentioned because it is another DnD MMO.
Not to toss out cliche's but, every game is what you make of it, and thus any "Number crunching hell" you endured was of your own volition.
The reality is, AD&D - 1 - 3, gave an astounding amount of stuff for character development, a ton of rules, books, sources, and a very complex system surrounding it. This is a signature trait of PnP DnD. Because of that for some players the complexity of Character Building in AD&D became it's very own meta game in PnP. So, when DDO allowed for that same Meta Game in their MMO, it gave it a very, PnP DnD style of feel.
But like PnP, you never needed to get deep into the Meta game to just enjoy doing a dungeon, the truth is a decent build was in fact, "good enough" to enjoy most of the game just fine. So, again, that should not be an issue unless you want to get into that Meta game, and if you wanted to get into that Meta game of build a "best toon", it seems rather frivolous to then complain that you got wrapped up in that meta game. Just saying.
Personally, outside of the grind (which was a hallmark of dated MMO's, so we know why they did it) I think DDO's main fault was the Ebberon setting (Which I heard a lot of DnD Fans in and out game complain about, I don't get why, but, that is fandom for you)
Eh, it looks decent enough. Just can't say I remember running with arties that liked using 2h weapons, they all seemed to get more mileage out of their Rune Arms, but that just goes to show that there was a great deal of diversity in DDO in regards to character building, and I will admit, I kinda wish Neverwinter embraced that dynamic as well.
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Cant have a literal translation as it would be a turn based game. Many MUDs as well as NWN incorporated turn based mechanics (so many actions within 6 seconds of time) - but those were not MMOs. They were however, quite successful. Pathfinder is looking promising.
For the record, that period of a few months after it went f2p (before multiple-lives, before crafting your own enchanted weapons, I think before whatever "silver hand potions" are?) was when I played, and formed my impressions of the game (fun, interesting dungeons, very hard to get past lv10-12 unless you were hardcore & spent lots of $ so you actually had quests to do).
The reason metagaming & min-max/"roll"-playing isn't as necessary in PnP is because the GM can alter stuff on the fly, can make allowances for the fact that your party doesn't have an ideal mix of classes/rolled terrible stats/has 2 healing potions between everyone. In a computer game, that doesn't happen - the adventure is what the adventure is.... if your party is non-standard, if your characters aren't Well Built, if your gear isn't the best throwing millions of plat at the auction can get - well, you're screwed. The game isn't going to adjust for you, you need to either go back to the drawing board with a proper build cribbed from the class forums and/or grind lower level stuff a heck of alot more so that you can improve your gear.
To clarify if needed, I was addressing your comments to Kiralyn regarding that phrase. I do not believe that the game is hell, but your comments dismissing his experience did not jibe with my experience of the game, as well as being rather offensive. Hence why I relied to that post.
There is a lot of optimising in DDO, and the game can be very harsh to new players trying to get into it, but I still enjoy playing it.
Eberron is one of the reasons that I play it. I was rather disappointed when they switched to Forgotten Realms.
Its basically a development of the BYOH mindset that requires you to be self-sufficient or you won't be allowed in the group. Epic destinies are generally very powerful, and melee classes are generally weak, so the straight melee class isn't much better at melee despite the Juggernaut being mostly caster.
Its probably the most extreme example of a class built from creation to take advantage of specific mechanics. Another would be the sorceror built to throw out as many magic missiles and similar multi-projectile spells as fast as possible to utilise a destiny with random effects on each hit.
Non-standard build probably works best in a regular party that knows how to compensate. Of course, decent game design would allow for more than one viable build.
It would be nice if CWs, could choose Frost, Storm or Arcane. At the moment, the only viable option is Arcane Singularity.
Gauntlgrym is the easiest path to nice gear.
For example, a Swordmage (Arcane Defender) could have the power to attack one enemy, then teleport across the battlefield to attack another, then when a third attacks the Cleric, he can use another power to teleport and attack again. Most Defenders also get other powers that activate only when an ally gets hit so they can charge to the rescue, sometimes negating the attack. The level of control, situational awareness, and sense of timing needed to use those abilities in a real-time environment is beyond what any developer could reasonably expect of its players... it'd be like assuming that all of the players for that class are also top-level competitors in national or world-level fighting game championships.
Do people really fight within their party in tabletop that much? I think it happened once in all the years I played D&D.... and that was only in a freshman-year-college game, where people tried to do that "ooh, we're all intellectual college students now, lets make sure everyone has Hidden Motives And Objectives that conflict with the party! Aren't we so sophisticated!" thing. Which, of course, ended with the entire party dead before the end of the first play session, followed swiftly by everyone abandoning that DM/campaign/mindset and going back to playing RPGs as a party of heroes.
/shrug
I stopped reading after the first sentence cause you allready nailed it. No further explanation needed.
LOL.
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IMO, the game is BASED ON D&D, it IS NOT D&D. What is D&D? Is it a game like checkers, chess, stratego? Nope, it's a tabletop game with a clear set of rules that are recommeded to be followed the rest is the creativity of the players. This is not a tabletop game, it does have elements of the D&D ruleset, has some creatures based on D&D monster guide from blah blah version rules.
At the end of the day it's a game based on D&D, it's no more D&D that Knights of the Republic was Star Wars.
Yeah, I need to figure out how to stick an avatar on my account, so it's more obvious.
edit: ah, there we go.
I will have to agree to disagree with you on this unless you opt to use the term as it applies by Wikipedia or the other sites I listed.
Meh, a Pure Arti was plenty self sufficient and very good DPS. I mean, I would have looked into the Tukaw if I was going to play a WF caster that wants to melee.
WF mixed with Arcane were like Fleshies Mixed with Divine.
Did a 12 fighter, 8 cleric , talk about being able to faceroll a dungeon, was looking into a 12 cleric/6 pally/2 monk for my 'Cleric Life' but I took a bet that I needed to play a "pure cleric" for my cleric life and Pug the whole way up.. I totally burned out at my Monk Life
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You?
At the core of D&D (and every other knockoff D20 tabletop game) is the principal of a storyteller taking you through a world they created. I don't know. I've played D&D since second edition, and 4th edition bears about as much resemblance to 2nd edition as this game does to 4th.
I do agree with the complaints about lack of class diversity, but I get it... All that stuff has to be created. I think sometimes people forget all of that digital content has to be created. Granted, It is odd that if the other 2 classes were in closed beta they wouldn't be in now.