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Official M16: Stats and Mechanics

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  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Member Posts: 295 Arc User

    adinosii said:

    You're saying "at-wills are worthless" because that's how they've been for much of this preview cycle, but they're explicitly being buffed by a fair amount.

    Well, strictly speaking, single-target at-wills stay the same, but they will feel like they got buffed because mobs HP is being reduced. Multi-target at-wills are being buffed on to of that (which actually is a bit unfair for classes that do not have any multi-target at-wills to begin with).

    Unless the single target At Wills they have are already OK.

    One thing getting buffed while another, similar, thing doesn't isn't automatically unfair. (Though it is if they were balanced to begin with ;) )
    It's more that the multi-target at-wills were severely undertuned.
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User


    One thing getting buffed while another, similar, thing doesn't isn't automatically unfair. (Though it is if they were balanced to begin with ;) )

    It's more that classes/paragons with multi-target at-wills are getting a much bigger buff than classes/paragons with only single-target at-wills.

    So, if they were balanced before, they are not now.

    Hoping for improvements...
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    adinosii said:


    One thing getting buffed while another, similar, thing doesn't isn't automatically unfair. (Though it is if they were balanced to begin with ;) )

    It's more that classes/paragons with multi-target at-wills are getting a much bigger buff than classes/paragons with only single-target at-wills.

    So, if they were balanced before, they are not now.

    Right. But they weren't. So it's an improvement.
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User

    adinosii said:

    You're saying "at-wills are worthless" because that's how they've been for much of this preview cycle, but they're explicitly being buffed by a fair amount.

    Well, strictly speaking, single-target at-wills stay the same, but they will feel like they got buffed because mobs HP is being reduced. Multi-target at-wills are being buffed on to of that (which actually is a bit unfair for classes that do not have any multi-target at-wills to begin with).

    Unless the single target At Wills they have are already OK.

    One thing getting buffed while another, similar, thing doesn't isn't automatically unfair. (Though it is if they were balanced to begin with ;) )
    It's more that the multi-target at-wills were severely undertuned.
    adinosii said:


    One thing getting buffed while another, similar, thing doesn't isn't automatically unfair. (Though it is if they were balanced to begin with ;) )

    It's more that classes/paragons with multi-target at-wills are getting a much bigger buff than classes/paragons with only single-target at-wills.

    So, if they were balanced before, they are not now.

    So, maybe a "case by case" system would have been more appropriate?

    But given the time they now have left to fix this I'm guessing that's not an option.

    From what @asterdahl has been saying, I don't think anyone expects to achieve True Balance, certainly not by the time it all hits live, and tweaks will happen over time based on ongoing evaluation.
    I just hope by the time it goes live they have it at least CLOSE to where it needs to be.
    Announcing a date has put the pressure on so I expect more changes over the next few weeks will be of a similar "broader" nature, with "tweaks" to follow on Live after it drops.
    I don't imagine this sudden shift in the mechanics of stats and opposing rolls will have helped, since now everything will have to be re-evaluated under this new system.
    I'd hate to see planned changes based on preview feedback on the current stats/mechanics do more harm than good because that basic system is changing...


    I'd be interested to know if the system we are getting tomorrow was part of the closed test, and if it was, why it wasn't chosen initially instead of the system we have been trialling.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,405 Arc User


    I'd be interested to know if the system we are getting tomorrow was part of the closed test, and if it was, why it wasn't chosen initially instead of the system we have been trialling.

    No, the announced system is completely new.

    The system that was released in the initial devblogs (the 500:1% model) was the one owlbear testers worked with.

  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User

    The changes to cooldowns has been discussed in different places, but it is easy to lose track of that information in the sea of threads that is M16.

    There are multiple reasons. The first is overall balance and how the powers relate to one another. Dailies get used least frequently and therefore do the most damage, Encounters get used a medium amount and do medium damage and At-Wills are used frequently and do the least amount.

    Another big reason is strategy and planning. When Neverwinter launched, encounter and daily powers were not spammable. Later updates added more and more ways to keep reducing these cooldowns, and eventually everything could be spammed. This takes meaning, strategy and planning away from the use of powers and we wanted to restore that meaning as well as bring the game back to its original intentions for those power types.

    Getting rid of all cooldown reductions and raising the cooldowns all over is a bit too much, don't you think so? Where is the "action" in this ActionMMORPG? Even on live is more action as in the new system. Looks like avery borring fightsystem, what you are indroducing here and not only from a gf class side.

    The action is stepping out of the red zones! ACTION!
  • minotaur2857minotaur2857 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,141 Arc User
    You are turning the game into a carpal tunnel at-will snorefest. 4E D&D was not that, many fights were (as M15 is for some classes) spamming your encounters and before you run out everything is dead (other than for variants of classes based around at-wills).
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:


    I'd be interested to know if the system we are getting tomorrow was part of the closed test, and if it was, why it wasn't chosen initially instead of the system we have been trialling.

    No, the announced system is completely new.

    The system that was released in the initial devblogs (the 500:1% model) was the one owlbear testers worked with.
    Cheers.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Member Posts: 295 Arc User

    You are turning the game into a carpal tunnel at-will snorefest. 4E D&D was not that, many fights were (as M15 is for some classes) spamming your encounters and before you run out everything is dead (other than for variants of classes based around at-wills).

    A situation that is addressed by them making the at-wills more meaningful moment-to-moment. You're still probably going to use Encounters on the big thing or the caster, but you'll be able to kill mooks with at-wills before they come back off cooldown.
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  • onin002onin002 Member Posts: 35 Arc User

    lowjohn said:

    Yes lowjon I did miss that. If you can quote where he said -30% to all monsters I'd love to read it. Unless you're referring to "Critter Health has been reduced by 30% across the board" which does NOT mean all monsters but a very specific set of monsters.

    "Critters" are not a category of monsters. He means "all monsters". @noworries#8859 back me up here?

    Critters is the internal term for all monsters, yes :)
    And bosses?
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,719 Arc User
    They've stated that all enemies in a given map or dungeon will have the same ratings, so yes this should apply to bosses as well.
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    onin002 said:

    lowjohn said:

    Yes lowjon I did miss that. If you can quote where he said -30% to all monsters I'd love to read it. Unless you're referring to "Critter Health has been reduced by 30% across the board" which does NOT mean all monsters but a very specific set of monsters.

    "Critters" are not a category of monsters. He means "all monsters". @noworries#8859 back me up here?

    Critters is the internal term for all monsters, yes :)
    And bosses?
    All monsters means all monsters.
  • geno82geno82 Member Posts: 80 Arc User
    Little question ..

    3% more power should more worth than 3000 power or?

    If I have 50,000 power, 3% more damage is less than 3% more damage of 100,000 power

    Or im wrong?
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,719 Arc User
    geno82 said:

    Little question ..



    3% more power should more worth than 3000 power or?



    If I have 50,000 power, 3% more damage is less than 3% more damage of 100,000 power



    Or im wrong?

    x% of a stat means x000 raw stat. This goes for 3% power = 3000 power, or 5% base crit chance means 5000 base crit. This was clarified by one of the devs a few weeks ago, but has since been buried.
  • geno82geno82 Member Posts: 80 Arc User
    > @arazith07 said:
    > Little question ..
    >
    >
    >
    > 3% more power should more worth than 3000 power or?
    >
    >
    >
    > If I have 50,000 power, 3% more damage is less than 3% more damage of 100,000 power
    >
    >
    >
    > Or im wrong?
    >
    > x% of a stat means x000 raw stat. This goes for 3% power = 3000 power, or 5% base crit chance means 5000 base crit. This was clarified by one of the devs a few weeks ago, but has since been buried.

    Yea but 3% more damage isnt 3% more power or?
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    geno82 said:

    > @arazith07 said:

    > Little question ..

    > 3% more power should more worth than 3000 power or?

    > If I have 50,000 power, 3% more damage is less than 3% more damage of 100,000 power

    > Or im wrong?

    > x% of a stat means x000 raw stat. This goes for 3% power = 3000 power, or 5% base crit chance means 5000 base crit. This was clarified by one of the devs a few weeks ago, but has since been buried.

    Yea but 3% more damage isnt 3% more power or?

    It's additive, so, the more power you have the less the same 1k power will add as damage.
  • eoleeeolee Member Posts: 264 Arc User
    "At-wills is everything you need" "Nobody does it like At-wills" "The At-wills of Confidence" "You can do it when you At-Wills it".
    "Go On, get your At-Wills out!"

    Versus: "Nobody better lay a finger on my encounter" or "Choosy Mothers choose Encounters".

    But with this change its more like "have a break from your At-Wills, have an Encounter" is just what it is now :(

    Granted, the idea of giving more impact to encounters and dailies was good, but with this change you are making again, it looks to me that you're just giving less impact to encounters. Im not too shocked by the changes to stats, but the ones to encounters/dailies magnitude are beyond my understanding.




  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,719 Arc User
    Power is only one part of the damage equation, so 3k power won't add 3% of total damage, just 3% more to the power portion of the damage equation. If you have a piece of gear that adds 5% power, crit, or whatever, it's adding 5k to the total stat when that equip power is triggered. If it says 5% damage, it's different than saying 5% power, in that it's actually 5% more damage (ex total damage might be 170% before, but once the 5% damage gear is added it becomes 175%) which is why in mod 15 gear like Fured Kuino or Hag's Rags are so powerful.
  • geno82geno82 Member Posts: 80 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    > @micky1p00 said:
    > > @arazith07 said:
    >
    > > Little question ..
    >
    > > 3% more power should more worth than 3000 power or?
    >
    > > If I have 50,000 power, 3% more damage is less than 3% more damage of 100,000 power
    >
    > > Or im wrong?
    >
    > > x% of a stat means x000 raw stat. This goes for 3% power = 3000 power, or 5% base crit chance means 5000 base crit. This was clarified by one of the devs a few weeks ago, but has since been buried.
    >
    > Yea but 3% more damage isnt 3% more power or?
    >
    > It's additive, so, the more power you have the less the same 1k power will add as damage.

    I know but dragonborn give 3% more damage, so the dragonborn give at start maybe damage in worth 3k power but at bis is maybe 15k power worth or I am wrong?

    And chult or sister shoes equip is maybe usefull at bis
  • ramesh84ramesh84 Member Posts: 133 Arc User


    Actually:

    ArP 57000
    Crit 52000 (+5% default crit hit)
    CA 97000 (+10% default CA)
    Acc 57000
    Total Stats: 263000



    True, missed that, thank for specification! I actually think that base crit looses of meaning with incoming changes, as stat required will be the same: something like X combined ratings*level would probably make more sense now, but minor details.
    I had time to think about changes, especially about my concern about gear score relevance. For what is my understanding, one of mod16 milestone was Devs wanted gear score being a reliable indicator of damage/survivability potential: it's not like that both in current preview state, and changes are increasing that gap IMO, better not talk about the complexity it brings, as another milestone was simplify overall.
    Let's try to use a simpler approach. It seems changes are motivated by the chance we currently have to reach the cap on every stat. If I dare to, I would try to find a solution starting from one of the main reason of issue: combined ratings.
    1. Current gear provides X power, Y hit points, A/B/C/etc on other stats and Z from combined stat. As changes require players to have need more or less same stats after changes (CA excluded), I would just remove or drastically reduce A/B/C/etc from level 80 gear.
    2. That brings an issue related to the acquired chance to get high stats both on defensive and offensive stat, fixable separating "defense combined" from "offence combined", or (better IMHO) providing a different coefficient of distribution for combined rating, based by role, like 75/25 for dps, 50/50 for healer, 25/75 for tanks. That would also contribute setting a wider gap in role definition, another of mod16 milestone. Locking this mechanic to dungeon maps only, will help solo play and pvp instance, due to the need of more balanced stats and higher enemies' stats in dungeons require a more "extreme" setup. The overall damage reduction will imply some more adjustment on damage based aggro too, heals should be fine, as mostly relying on power.

    On players PoV, that will make easier optimizing stats, giving casual and new players the chance to skip (most of) the math behind it and giving back to enchantments, insignias and artifacts their stat "balancing" role, because of smaller gap between base and required stat.
    From a Dev perspective, balancing max achievable rating should be easier, raising dungeon stats for a % equal to class coefficient.
    Am I oversimplifying? Probably, but I like lazy solution :)

    PS: deflection needs some love, same for enchantments, insignias and legendary mounts: they are not worth the investment now.

    Sorry for giant post, just hope it will help.
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User

    You are turning the game into a carpal tunnel at-will snorefest. 4E D&D was not that, many fights were (as M15 is for some classes) spamming your encounters and before you run out everything is dead (other than for variants of classes based around at-wills).

    A situation that is addressed by them making the at-wills more meaningful moment-to-moment. You're still probably going to use Encounters on the big thing or the caster, but you'll be able to kill mooks with at-wills before they come back off cooldown.
    If you are in a class/paragon that has multi-target at-wills. Those that only have single-target ones are not so lucky.
    Hoping for improvements...
  • burnthelamb#6611 burnthelamb Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    Thanks for clearing that up Julia. :)
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    adinosii said:

    You are turning the game into a carpal tunnel at-will snorefest. 4E D&D was not that, many fights were (as M15 is for some classes) spamming your encounters and before you run out everything is dead (other than for variants of classes based around at-wills).

    A situation that is addressed by them making the at-wills more meaningful moment-to-moment. You're still probably going to use Encounters on the big thing or the caster, but you'll be able to kill mooks with at-wills before they come back off cooldown.
    If you are in a class/paragon that has multi-target at-wills. Those that only have single-target ones are not so lucky.
    Classes that have "Press and hold" at-wills will be on easy street. Those of us who have "Press and Release" at-wills are gonna get carpel tunnel.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    If your encounters one shot things now, they will probably still do that after this change.

    The only space where you will notice a difference is really in multiplayer content.

    You might need to walk a little slower to the next mob now in solo content to allow for cooldowns, but that’s about the effect of these changes for the majority of play.
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  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User

    adinosii said:

    You are turning the game into a carpal tunnel at-will snorefest. 4E D&D was not that, many fights were (as M15 is for some classes) spamming your encounters and before you run out everything is dead (other than for variants of classes based around at-wills).

    A situation that is addressed by them making the at-wills more meaningful moment-to-moment. You're still probably going to use Encounters on the big thing or the caster, but you'll be able to kill mooks with at-wills before they come back off cooldown.
    If you are in a class/paragon that has multi-target at-wills. Those that only have single-target ones are not so lucky.
    Classes that have "Press and hold" at-wills will be on easy street. Those of us who have "Press and Release" at-wills are gonna get carpel tunnel.
    Fun fact: the carpal tunnel issue is the reason I never bother casting Scorching Burst.
  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,467 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    vorphied said:

    hustin1 said:

    vorphied said:

    hustin1 said:

    hustin1 said:

    Wow this is good news indeed, especially for us players who usually solo. I mean really good news.

    No it isn't. We just lost up to 30% damage resistance with the cap change. We just got royally screwed.

    I am so done with this mod. I'll see you in mod 17.
    Enemies HP fell by 30%. That means that your opening encounter powers now take ovver 64% more of their HP. So you may not be able to survive as long, but you no longer *have to.*
    There is NO WAY that the change to enemies makes up for having your damage resistance go from 80% to 25% -- not with the damage they do. To me this is a dealbreaker. I now have zero intention of doing this mod. I'll invoke my way to 80 instead.
    What character are you concerned about that would actually be affected by this, anyway?

    Tanks have gigantic HP pools and mitigation tools to compensate, and they are the only role that could reasonably think about hitting any kind of damage resistance cap without siphoning off other, more necessary stats.

    DPS not only have (or should have, when the design is on point) the highest damage output, they were already not getting much benefit at all from defensive stats if built for their intended purpose (i.e. no reasonable DPS gets anywhere close to 80% damage resistance without the live version of Shepherd's Devotion being abused).

    Healing supports, when caught in the rare situation where they need to solo something, simply need enough juice to kill a pack of mobs before their healing resources and cooldowns become an issue. Also not realistically able to hit 80% damage resistance.

    TL;DR: I think you're drastically overestimating the significance of this change in regards to non-tank characters, and tanks should have absolutely nothing to worry about. As far as solo content goes, no one has anything to worry about except when other things are not WAI (e.g. broken mob scaling, underperforming class design, etc.).
    I spend 99% of my time soloing, and so I have high defense on ALL of my alts. My HR (main) has the highest on live and already hits around 90-95% DR when the bondings kick in. If I swap all her companion gear and companions around it can go past 130%, which is of course overkill. That said, all of my alts have robust defense stats -- they need them when soloing. I'm actually not talking mainly about tanks, as out of 16 alts I have only one GF and one OP and I don't play them often at all.

    While you may prefer to play this way, you do know it's really not necessary, right? None of those characters need tank-level defenses to get the job done solo. If you have enough stat points right now to be maxing out your defenses on your DPS characters, you could easily swap them over to offensive stats and simply kill everything before it has a chance to deal any significant damage.

    The only time I am not soloing is when in specific dungeons and trials, so my advice comes from what I imagine is similar experience.
    So, it's okay to force a single playstyle now? I can't keep up. I thought we considered cookie-cutter builds to be a bad thing.
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  • miotest#5683 miotest Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    In my opinion, this is the last timed blow of grace. Total failure of the value of all personal equipment (enchantments, insignias) = ​​up to 90%. Reasons why they are purposeful. Once this is achieved, there will be an upgrade boom that will not really bring long-term benefits. This completes the restart of all - BIS players have almost nothing and others are just a little worse. In the future, the player will be quickly deprived of all assets because of the huge space for upgrading equipment that will lose value in 3-6 months in the long run. Which will mean a quick adaptation for new players.
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