Official M16: Stats and Mechanics

zimxero

nisckis said:

We do need level 80 stats and Lair of the Mad Mage stats. I don't think many people care about level 70 or lower stats.

I think their system makes it clear:

Level 80 enemies
12,000 awareness, accuracy, armor penetration, critical resist
62,000 critical hit, defense, deflect, and combat advantage

Lair of the Mad Mage enemies
16,000 awareness, accuracy, armor penetration, critical resist
66,000 critical hit, defense, deflect, and combat advantage

autumnwitch

kythelion#3210 said:

noworries#8859 said:

Now that preview has been going for several weeks now and there has been an immense level of feedback for us to review, we have made some core changes to further improve the balance. These will likely go to preview later this week, barring any complications.

• Ratings now convert at 1000 rating points to 1%
  

• Defense now caps at 50% damage ignored. Certain temporary buffs can bypass this cap up to a maximum of 80% damage ignored.
  

• Critter ratings have been adjusted to have two values. Defense/Deflect/Combat Advantage/and Crit will be a higher value than the other four ratings. Critter ratings have been adjusted as well. Ex: level 70 critters will have 7,000 rating for Critical Resist, Accuracy, Awareness, and Armor Pen. They will have 57,000 ratings for Defense, Deflect, Combat Advantage, and Critical Strike. At endgame, the higher ratings are always 50,000 more than the lower ratings.
  

• Encounter and Daily magnitudes have been brought down, making At-Will powers more effective in relation.
  

• Critter Health has been reduced by 30% across the board
  

• Multi-target At-Wills have had their damage increased
  

#

Well, I'm glad to see some adjustments to the unforgiving opposing stats system. I'll have to ponder the numbers to know how much this is actually better, but at least our stats won't be completely useless if they don't reach cap. This is probably good.

Lowering the encounter and daily magnitudes might be good if you are also going to lower the cooldowns. Making the at wills a larger portion of the overall damage pie chart is fine with me as long as I'm not standing there napping holding the trigger button because cooldowns are still ridiculously long.

Aye, you are correct. I still haven't heard a reason for the much longer cool down times other than "to keep us from being too powerful".

arazith07

micky1p00 said:

arazith07 said:

micky1p00 said:

noworries#8859 said:

Defense now caps at 50% damage ignored. Certain temporary buffs can bypass this cap up to a maximum of 80% damage ignored.

On second thought, is this correct or a mistake?

Maximum of 80% ignored or resisted!

If this correct, we will always, in regular circumstances (without those temporary debuffs), deal only 50% of our damage, even with maxed ArP ????

This is more about player defense, the max a player can have is 50% Damage resisted, with spikes to 80% with certain abilities. Monster defense is separate and is countered by player Armor penetration, but if you have 0 arpen you could be doing 50% of your normal damage if the monster has 50k+ defense.

Currently, the same damage formula applies from the player to the mobs, and from the mobs to the player. This either means that we are nerfed, or it means as you say, that with 0 effective ArP we will do 50% damage and not 20%.
Unless the target or the player increases mitigation not-from stats.

(and mobs to us btw)

The stat spread from above, assumes the second.

I did slightly misspeak when I said it more is about players defense, but I was mainly assuming most players would have the required amount of arpen to do full damage.

noworries

autumnwitch said:

Aye, you are correct. I still haven't heard a reason for the much longer cool down times other than "to keep us from being too powerful".

The changes to cooldowns has been discussed in different places, but it is easy to lose track of that information in the sea of threads that is M16.

There are multiple reasons. The first is overall balance and how the powers relate to one another. Dailies get used least frequently and therefore do the most damage, Encounters get used a medium amount and do medium damage and At-Wills are used frequently and do the least amount.

Another big reason is strategy and planning. When Neverwinter launched, encounter and daily powers were not spammable. Later updates added more and more ways to keep reducing these cooldowns, and eventually everything could be spammed. This takes meaning, strategy and planning away from the use of powers and we wanted to restore that meaning as well as bring the game back to its original intentions for those power types.

auron

noworries#8859 said:

Now that preview has been going for several weeks now and there has been an immense level of feedback for us to review, we have made some core changes to further improve the balance. These will likely go to preview later this week, barring any complications.

• Ratings now convert at 1000 rating points to 1%
  

• Defense now caps at 50% damage ignored. Certain temporary buffs can bypass this cap up to a maximum of 80% damage ignored.
  

• Critter ratings have been adjusted to have two values. Defense/Deflect/Combat Advantage/and Crit will be a higher value than the other four ratings. Critter ratings have been adjusted as well. Ex: level 70 critters will have 7,000 rating for Critical Resist, Accuracy, Awareness, and Armor Pen. They will have 57,000 ratings for Defense, Deflect, Combat Advantage, and Critical Strike. At endgame, the higher ratings are always 50,000 more than the lower ratings.
  

• Encounter and Daily magnitudes have been brought down, making At-Will powers more effective in relation.
  

• Critter Health has been reduced by 30% across the board
  

• Multi-target At-Wills have had their damage increased
  

So why were these particular changes made?

With the values ratings currently have, players routinely either have below the threshold for a given rating which means it has zero effectiveness, or they have wasted stats because the cap for effectiveness has been exceeded.

By changing the conversion from 500 to 1% to 1000 to 1% it gives a wider variance in values. This in turn allowed us to lower the critter ratings so that players who have even minimal viable gear should find it easy to see some effectiveness from their ratings. In addition, separating the critter ratings into two categories allows for all ratings to have similar investments put into them for effectiveness. The way it is on preview now, players need over twice as much for half their ratings which is an odd balancing act.

There has been no shortage of talk about At-Wills not feeling meaningful enough to want to use. While mathematically over the course of a fight, or dungeon run, they added up to a significant amount of damage, it didn't feel that way due to the size of individual hits. To bring At-Wills closer to other powers, we reduced the magnitudes of Encounter and Dailies and reduced overall critter health to adjust for the lower overall damage.

As with all aspects, further changes could happen before this goes live.

this still does not answer the question of why rolling scores A CORE ELIMENT of D&D is being removed. If you cannot provide a logical reasoning for this then don't remove it. Allow us to roll for our status.

lowjohn

burnthelamb#6611 said:

So instead of giving At-Wills a small boost you nerfed the other powers? I'm not sure this is what people were asking for. So we'll do less DoT overall and still have weak atwills as our TTK raises? Interesting decision.

Did you miss the "-30% HP to all monsters"?

What's he's basically said is "every at-will power does around +30% damage, multi-target at-wills get a bigger boost than that."

Encounters and Dailies are staying about where they were, compared to enemy HP, even if the numbers on the screen are a little lower. At-wills are going way up.

autumnwitch

noworries#8859 said:

autumnwitch said:

Aye, you are correct. I still haven't heard a reason for the much longer cool down times other than "to keep us from being too powerful".

The changes to cooldowns has been discussed in different places, but it is easy to lose track of that information in the sea of threads that is M16.

There are multiple reasons. The first is overall balance and how the powers relate to one another. Dailies get used least frequently and therefore do the most damage, Encounters get used a medium amount and do medium damage and At-Wills are used frequently and do the least amount.

Another big reason is strategy and planning. When Neverwinter launched, encounter and daily powers were not spammable. Later updates added more and more ways to keep reducing these cooldowns, and eventually everything could be spammed. This takes meaning, strategy and planning away from the use of powers and we wanted to restore that meaning as well as bring the game back to its original intentions for those power types.

Well, this explanation is still basically, so we won't be too powerful. Which is totally valid in some ways and I get it. But I have to ask, too powerful for what? Why is it inherently bad that we succeed with using encounters more often?

The problem as it is now though for us who play mostly solo, as I do, especially grinding out the campaigns is that I get killed in mobs (in MOD16) and even when I don't the whole battle turns into spamming at wills over and over again and running around waiting for cool downs. This is not fun and it doesn't change as I get more spells/abilities. It just doesn't feel rewarding. As I move up in XP I should have the sense of accomplishing something in my game play. But playing as a level ten now is has inherently the same feeling as playing as a level 70 (in MOD16). Sure, I have more spells and abilities but I never freaking get to use them because of the long cooldowns. (I know that's an exaggeration but that is how it feels most of the time.)

As you pointed out, in the early days encounters and dailies weren't spammable but they became that way because that is what we wanted. If there had been no reason or call for it, it would have stayed the same. This is a video game not a TP game. If people are not having some type of visceral reward it gets boring really, really fast.

I really want you guys to succeed but the game has to be entertaining (read as rewarding) or people won't play. Button smashing at wills 80+% of the time is not challenging or innovative its tedious. Please, don't feel I am saying this to give you a hard time I totally want to support NW. I just wish you would listen to what so many of us are saying. Video games are not "build it they will come". They have to be engrossing and rewarding. Right now, MOD16 maybe for some people is, but for most? I'm not sure,

agodbea

"-30% HP to all monsters" equals +43% damage even so is a huge change.

Hope tooltips can show % chance we have vs a monster of equal level as that will make them easier to understand.

7% critical chance (vs targets of your level using your current values)
N% chance to deflect ...

zimxero

I am not sure they got the balance right, but it is an improvement.

On the negative...Noteably, NO ONE will invest in deflection. I thought one of the goals was to eliminate "really bad" choices from the game. Deflection is one of those. Critical resistance and Defense outperform deflection on a 2:1 point per point ratio. Please... either make deflection 500 points per 1% or give it a side-effect like a 1 second stun.

One of the good things i see coming from this 'adjustment' is that poison, fire, bleeding, and other factors based on flat Base Weapon damage, will get boosted. Almost no one used them before because they were underperforming compared to alternatives.

admiralwarlord

tardbath said:

"Certain temporary buffs can bypass this cap up to a maximum of 80% damage ignored."

plz don't let this lead again to damage resistance over buffing like we have going on the live server !! With DCs capping the dmg resistance of the whole team and everyone ignoring dmg and "reds". The only difference between a tank and a dps will be the HP one! Make the temorary buff, capped or even a self buff, so we don't have everyone running around with max res without any invest in DEF!

Best

I think these buffs and debuffs that he does not mention, be the enhancement power of the companions and the insignia bonus Protector's Camaraderie.

ramesh84

I am not a math geek but for what I understood we are moving to this rating cap at level 70:
ArP 57000
Crit 57000
CA 107000
Acc 57000
Total Stats: 278000

Too lazy to do all calculation needed, but that means (please correct me if I am wrong):
- even with best in slot gear will be impossible to cap all offensive stats: that sounds weird to my ears
- as @micky1p00 stated, accuracy will be avoided as stat, because less effective than other ones. IMHO accuracy cap should be about a half than armor penetration one, because of its reduced effectiveness. That would also allow players (especially new ones) to progressively stack any stat, in a more intuitive way avoiding bad choices.
Another variable to take into account is gear score: two players at same level will have significantly different performances because of investing in accuracy rather than armor penetration, that was a minor issue with current system allowing to cap both easily, with announced changes it gets way more relevant.

About at-wills changes: I am quite curious to see the numbers on next patch to make my idea, I am mostly concerned about AoE at-will, as not every class has access to one of them. Also wouldn't be pleased seeing mouse holding being more rewarded than a proper rotation, but surely nothing couldn't be fixed.

PS: Quite brave of you Devs to implement these changes with about 4 weeks left before PC's live, wish you the best

zimxero

ramesh84 said:

I am not a math geek but for what I understood we are moving to this rating cap at level 70:
ArP 57000
Crit 57000
CA 107000
Acc 57000
Total Stats: 278000

Actually:

ArP 57000
Crit 52000 (+5% default crit hit)
CA 97000 (+10% default CA)
Acc 57000
Total Stats: 263000


Nevertheless, you make a good point. I have to agree. Even though most players balance it out some, I think a maxed out player should be able to max out one side of the offensive or defensive tree, and start edging into the other side.


Any chance we will get back our normal runestone and enchantment values for dual slots?

lordseth1985

noworries#8859 said:

autumnwitch said:

Aye, you are correct. I still haven't heard a reason for the much longer cool down times other than "to keep us from being too powerful".

The changes to cooldowns has been discussed in different places, but it is easy to lose track of that information in the sea of threads that is M16.

There are multiple reasons. The first is overall balance and how the powers relate to one another. Dailies get used least frequently and therefore do the most damage, Encounters get used a medium amount and do medium damage and At-Wills are used frequently and do the least amount.

Another big reason is strategy and planning. When Neverwinter launched, encounter and daily powers were not spammable. Later updates added more and more ways to keep reducing these cooldowns, and eventually everything could be spammed. This takes meaning, strategy and planning away from the use of powers and we wanted to restore that meaning as well as bring the game back to its original intentions for those power types.

I remember those days... it was really painfull sometimes. I play NWO since beta, and the game was also amazing back then. But AFAIK and based on what I read around here, the cd of powers are really long, sometimes reaching 15-20 seconds. IMO it's too much long. Why not reduce a little those cd? make the big hits take 15 secs max to be used and the less dmg being used more times? It's not that hard. Also, why lower the dmg from encounters and not increasing the dmg from att will powers? Why do that? the game comes more boring and not rewarding also...

soythesauce

There is external cd reduction ingame.
Some od it might not work yet but its there.

Non the less griffon +heart if X dragon or the new wyvern artifact might have a valid comeback

mord

@noworries#8859 Will the boon stats increase by 100% to correlate with this? If not, I imagine it will make most of the game redundant. There's no point in running campaigns if the boons you get from them are inconsequential.

mamalion1234

noworries#8859 said:

autumnwitch said:

Aye, you are correct. I still haven't heard a reason for the much longer cool down times other than "to keep us from being too powerful".

The changes to cooldowns has been discussed in different places, but it is easy to lose track of that information in the sea of threads that is M16.

There are multiple reasons. The first is overall balance and how the powers relate to one another. Dailies get used least frequently and therefore do the most damage, Encounters get used a medium amount and do medium damage and At-Wills are used frequently and do the least amount.

Another big reason is strategy and planning. When Neverwinter launched, encounter and daily powers were not spammable. Later updates added more and more ways to keep reducing these cooldowns, and eventually everything could be spammed. This takes meaning, strategy and planning away from the use of powers and we wanted to restore that meaning as well as bring the game back to its original intentions for those power types.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuSUCaa85lY

I Understand the changes but according to this video from module 1 your information is wrong daily powers were spammable.
Watch the cleric he spams hallowed ground more than module 15! with stats like 8k power 1000 recovery.

kythelion

soythesauce#5192 said:

There is external cd reduction ingame.

Some od it might not work yet but its there.



Non the less griffon +heart if X dragon or the new wyvern artifact might have a valid comeback

Yes, it's good for a few second shave on recharging powers, but overall it's not going to be a mega difference.

xselli

Will there by an updaut to mounts (So that they give more stats ) an legy companien (5 slots give stats to a maximum to 8k very slots so in total 40k) a legy Mount gives only 4k stat point and is so not so useful pre mod 16 2k stats were a lot but in the New system this change so I hope that there will be adjustments

burnthelamb

Yes lowjon I did miss that. If you can quote where he said -30% to all monsters I'd love to read it. Unless you're referring to "Critter Health has been reduced by 30% across the board" which does NOT mean all monsters but a very specific set of monsters.

hustin1

autumnwitch said:

noworries#8859 said:

Wow this is good news indeed, especially for us players who usually solo. I mean really good news.

No it isn't. We just lost up to 30% damage resistance with the cap change and the remainder was further cut in half with the conversion rate change. We just got royally screwed. We are ALL now made of paper.

I am so done with this mod. I'll see you in mod 17.

theycallmetomu

hustin1 said:

autumnwitch said:

noworries#8859 said:

Wow this is good news indeed, especially for us players who usually solo. I mean really good news.

No it isn't. We just lost up to 30% damage resistance with the cap change. We just got royally screwed.

I am so done with this mod. I'll see you in mod 17.

Enemies HP fell by 30%. That means that your opening encounter powers now take ovver 64% more of their HP. So you may not be able to survive as long, but you no longer *have to.*

hustin1

theycallmetomu said:

hustin1 said:

autumnwitch said:

noworries#8859 said:

Wow this is good news indeed, especially for us players who usually solo. I mean really good news.

No it isn't. We just lost up to 30% damage resistance with the cap change. We just got royally screwed.

I am so done with this mod. I'll see you in mod 17.

Enemies HP fell by 30%. That means that your opening encounter powers now take ovver 64% more of their HP. So you may not be able to survive as long, but you no longer *have to.*

There is NO WAY that the change to enemies makes up for having your damage resistance go from 80% to 25% -- not with the damage they do. To me this is a dealbreaker. I now have zero intention of doing this mod. I'll invoke my way to 80 instead.

rickcase276

It will probably be best to just wait and see if it will be better for mostly solo players or not. But I still feel that they are concentrating too much on getting all the classes to work cohesively in group settings and forgetting that 80% of the game is meant to be solo content. And there are players that mostly play solo due to time constraints, or in my case powers (icy terrain and icestorm) that totally do not like my internet. But we shall see, I guess, and hopefully all classes and all paragon paths will be competent enough to be able to at least do the solo content of the game.

theycallmetomu

hustin1 said:

theycallmetomu said:

hustin1 said:

autumnwitch said:

noworries#8859 said:

Wow this is good news indeed, especially for us players who usually solo. I mean really good news.

No it isn't. We just lost up to 30% damage resistance with the cap change. We just got royally screwed.

I am so done with this mod. I'll see you in mod 17.

Enemies HP fell by 30%. That means that your opening encounter powers now take ovver 64% more of their HP. So you may not be able to survive as long, but you no longer *have to.*

There is NO WAY that the change to enemies makes up for having your damage resistance go from 80% to 25% -- not with the damage they do. To me this is a dealbreaker. I now have zero intention of doing this mod. I'll invoke my way to 80 instead.

1% per 1000 stat points doesn't mean that the number of stat points we're getting isn't going to be doubled ya know.

hustin1

theycallmetomu said:

hustin1 said:

theycallmetomu said:

hustin1 said:

autumnwitch said:

noworries#8859 said:

Wow this is good news indeed, especially for us players who usually solo. I mean really good news.

No it isn't. We just lost up to 30% damage resistance with the cap change. We just got royally screwed.

I am so done with this mod. I'll see you in mod 17.

Enemies HP fell by 30%. That means that your opening encounter powers now take ovver 64% more of their HP. So you may not be able to survive as long, but you no longer *have to.*

There is NO WAY that the change to enemies makes up for having your damage resistance go from 80% to 25% -- not with the damage they do. To me this is a dealbreaker. I now have zero intention of doing this mod. I'll invoke my way to 80 instead.

1% per 1000 stat points doesn't mean that the number of stat points we're getting isn't going to be doubled ya know.

It doesn't mean that they will be doubled either. Are you actually suggesting making that assumption? Really?

When devs make sweeping changes like this I have to make a decision regarding how much punishment I want to deal with. Mod 6 was enough for me and this looks to be worse. If the devs make further changes I'll of course reevaluate the question, but right now, all of my alts will remain parked at the bank.

douglasopferbeck

> @burnthelamb#6611 said:
> Yes lowjon I did miss that. If you can quote where he said -30% to all monsters I'd love to read it. Unless you're referring to "Critter Health has been reduced by 30% across the board" which does NOT mean all monsters but a very specific set of monsters.

Actually that does mean all monsters. There is no other way to read that. If English isn’t your first language I apologize.

arazith07

I've found that HP is more useful than stacking defense. The amount of defense needed to break even and start to take less damage is a bit much, but with this change it will be easier for newer players to be able to reduce damage since monster Arpen is one of the lower ratings.

theycallmetomu

douglasopferbeck said:

> @burnthelamb#6611 said:

> Yes lowjon I did miss that. If you can quote where he said -30% to all monsters I'd love to read it. Unless you're referring to "Critter Health has been reduced by 30% across the board" which does NOT mean all monsters but a very specific set of monsters.



Actually that does mean all monsters. There is no other way to read that. If English isn’t your first language I apologize.

Eh, I could understand reading "Critter" as "minions" or "mobs" as opposed to boss monsters.

If you're weird you could assume it's a subtype of monsters such as beasts.

zimxero

Re: the new stat system hitting us tommorrow,
For Level 80 Undermountain, If I set my stats to:

240,000 Health (=60000 stat points)
50000 Power
12000 Critical Hit%
12000 Defense
12000 Deflect
12000 Combat Advantage
62,000 Awareness
62,000 Accuracy
62,000 Armor Penetration
62,000 Critical Resistance

I will have spent/used 406,000 stat points (thats close to what players will have with top gear)
My resulting effectiveness will be as follows:

240,000 Health
+50% Power
5% Critical Hit chance
0% Damage Resistance
0% Deflection chance
10% Combat Advantage bonus damage

My enemies will have:
Default Health
Default Power
5% Critical Hit chance
0% Damage Resistance
0% Deflection chance
10% Combat Advantage bonus damage


NET RESULT is essentially Zero loss/Zero gain. If this is what you're aiming for, it will work.
If you set all your stats to 37,000, you will have 25% effectiveness and so will your enemy.

lowjohn

burnthelamb#6611 said:

Yes lowjon I did miss that. If you can quote where he said -30% to all monsters I'd love to read it. Unless you're referring to "Critter Health has been reduced by 30% across the board" which does NOT mean all monsters but a very specific set of monsters.

"Critters" are not a category of monsters. He means "all monsters". @noworries#8859 back me up here?