And yet, people complain that CR is 'too hard' and that 'the rewards aren't good enough for the difficulty'....
As to the topic at hand, I think FBI could use a slight tweak. I'm fine with dungeons scaling up in difficulty. I get that FBI is that 'next step' for a lot of players- unfortunately, that 'next step' isn't a slight or even moderate incline for the players, its a sheer cliff. There is nothing (to my knowledge) that FBI provides that is useful for a player gearing up for 'endgame', beyond the seals / RP - which are more easily acquired elsewhere.
Even something as small as spreading the mobs on the climb out a bit, and ditching orc messenger just past the first camp would make a tremendous difference, IMO.
The point chemjeff is making, I think, is that, with an expected ilevel of 11k (?) to enter, it should be possible to do it in a semi-decent PUG. This often isn't the case - why is that? The answer generally isn't 'git gud, n00b'. Either the ilevel requirements are set too low (possible), or the design is suspect. If the latter, it should be adjusted. I don't think anyone is asking for it to be another etos, but any sort of half-decent PUG should be able to make the hill climb without a whole lot of issues.
Yea I mean I understand why the first hill has a monstrous threat to overcome; cause if you can't do that then your HOPES of finishing the first, second or third bosses is likely not very good at all.
I don't know they should necessarily NERF the DUNGEON.
But HONESTLY - I wish they would try to limit the minimum gear score players to one or two my Corellon that's the least they should try to do. And there is no reason if they have 1-2 at the bare minimum they can't try to find 1 player that's +16.5k to compensate for every player of near minimum gear score for a dungeon? No?
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,154Arc User
Because it is a lot easier to set the entry at a point than to juggle the entry level for others based on who is already in the queue.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
One thing that occurred to me, and I haven't seen mentioned (apologies if I missed something) is that there was a major change in how people can get into FBI in mod 14. It's not the Barvian gear inflating ILs, it's the fact that RAQ doesn't require the FBI, MSP unlocks or the Everfrost resist. I checked on a character who is 11k+ and was allowed to queue for RAQ but not for FBI directly. The lack of Everfrost resist is probably somewhat important, but the removal of the time gate (at least 1 month for both dungeons that someone has to be playing in difficult content) A new player can hit level 70, get 11k TIL and queue for RAQ, bypassing the wait and the possibility of experience that would be gained in the intervening time - not that solo campaigns provide real experience for queued content - but at least the time gate would give them opportunity.
I think ultimately, if they had removed the restrictions on queuing (unlock and everfrost) and left the old Random Epic Queue, it would have been an improvement. Removing that requirement and also moving the two offending dungeons to a new queue isn't that great.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
but a solid group, stripped down to base il would better serve the conversation.
Once again - no. It's not about having a "solid team". Should it be necessary to construct a "solid team" for two-year-old dungeons?
If you don't want it to take 40 minutes, yes.
Try 70 minutes.
Okay, so how far do you want to take this? You already want the mod 8 CN back with the hard-hitting Orcus. So we should need a "solid team" for that too. What about EToS/EGWD/ECC? Maybe we should bring back the Mod 6 "Arpen Bug" and make those super-hard too so that we need a "solid team" for those too. What about the older dungeons? Maybe we should make MC/VT hard again like they were when they launched, when the team needed to pay attention to mechanics. At what point does a dungeon get old enough that it no longer is a place where a "solid team" is absolutely needed, and is just for farming? That is partly my point. FBI is two years old now. In my view, I really shouldn't have to organize a premade to find that "solid team" for a two-year-old dungeon.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,154Arc User
Honestly, Orcus never should have been nerfed.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
but a solid group, stripped down to base il would better serve the conversation.
Once again - no. It's not about having a "solid team". Should it be necessary to construct a "solid team" for two-year-old dungeons?
If you don't want it to take 40 minutes, yes.
Try 70 minutes.
Okay, so how far do you want to take this? You already want the mod 8 CN back with the hard-hitting Orcus. So we should need a "solid team" for that too. What about EToS/EGWD/ECC? Maybe we should bring back the Mod 6 "Arpen Bug" and make those super-hard too so that we need a "solid team" for those too. What about the older dungeons? Maybe we should make MC/VT hard again like they were when they launched, when the team needed to pay attention to mechanics. At what point does a dungeon get old enough that it no longer is a place where a "solid team" is absolutely needed, and is just for farming? That is partly my point. FBI is two years old now. In my view, I really shouldn't have to organize a premade to find that "solid team" for a two-year-old dungeon.
Who said you need a solid team?
You want a 'speed-run', then either overgear, or skill, or teamwork / synergy, or any combination of the above. But without those, why it should be extremely easy? Why it shouldn't take an hour? The fact that it is two years old, gives you one of the above, crapton of power creep and gear that allows people to blindly Rambo any dungeon, but if you don't have those.. then it is a dungeon like any dungeon.
A person who tanked T2, should be semi ready to tank CN orcus. A person who tanked CN orcus, should be semi ready to tank FBI, and so on to MSP, Tomb, etc.. A progress path of better gear, better skill, and better mechanics understanding. Anyone who wants to speed-farm should go to something they outskilled, overgeared, or have the party to do it.
There is nothing (to my knowledge) that FBI provides that is useful for a player gearing up for 'endgame', beyond the seals / RP - which are more easily acquired elsewhere.
With the exception of Seals of the Crown from CR and UESes, there is nothing in the endgame dungeons that makes them a required activity to gear up.
So you don't really _need_ to run the hard dungeons until you are at the very end of your character development, at which point you should be past 17k IL or so.
So lower geared people can stay away from FBI/MSP/Cradle/Tong/CR without suffering any gear disability. From an efficiency point of view they probably should.. you get more from your time spent elsewhere in game.
So asking if an adjustment is due for RAQ dungeon = automatic speed run and completion? Well if you are end game geared and exp. I guess lol. Pre mades are speed runs already, this is about RQ and it wont become a speed run for anyone at base iL / not over geared or exp. unless carried.
At what point are people over geared for FBI? Min iL is 11k! 11k is over geared? The norm? Under geared? Where are all the calls for 11k FBI groups, I've seen none!!! Players are being told go pre made to have a decent experience; Speed run it and or get carried.
CN is 9k RIQ! Now they should be semi ready to tank FBI because they got into RIQ? Do people who believe this actually regularly go to RI/AQ without a pre made or with near Min iL reqs? Clear disconnect. That is ideal but its not like that. Is about over all experience not exceptions.
If Seals of the Crown from CR and UES are the only decent things in REQ (The End Game and Separate Queue) then why are people even concerned with an FBI adjustment? Theres even less incentive. No one will get anything for free, no automatic completion or boosted to end game.
Sure, Min iL was lowered to keep players away from that content until 17k lol. If you get more for your time elsewhere then completing end game dungeons that is a loot/balancing issue of its own.
Think we need someone who mains a minimum item-level OP and knows how to use the things this class does to weigh in here. It's not a very fair comparison when the random queue often puts you in with a Swordmaster GF.
Think we need someone who mains a minimum item-level OP and knows how to use the things this class does to weigh in here. It's not a very fair comparison when the random queue often puts you in with a Swordmaster GF.
Do a forum search for Orcus nerf. You will find all you need to know. Same things being said there as are here now. Idk if you were around then for that but some of these forum posters definitely were so they seen this before. Explains a lot.
There is a bad and frankly outdated culture being promoted in the game and forums, one which the devs seem to be working away from but will not be achieved until things like RQ FBI are looked into and addressed. A healthy RQ will benefit the majority and the game in turn.
Look at some of the "advice" being given here: Git gud / berating, hyperbole, ignore RA/EQ until 17k and posting YT links of players soloin things to justify trash mobs hitting harder then their bosses. These are not the comments I would expect to see from such experienced players.
Well actually I'm adding a different viewpoint to all the elitists out there, and that is that either GF tank needs to be reworked, or they need to be put into the DPS group. I think that a low iLevel OP who knows how to play can quite easily tank FBI, but a BiS GF would struggle.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
So asking if an adjustment is due for RAQ dungeon = automatic speed run and completion? Well if you are end game geared and exp. I guess lol. Pre mades are speed runs already, this is about RQ and it wont become a speed run for anyone at base iL / not over geared or exp. unless carried.
At what point are people over geared for FBI? Min iL is 11k! 11k is over geared? The norm? Under geared? Where are all the calls for 11k FBI groups, I've seen none!!! Players are being told go pre made to have a decent experience; Speed run it and or get carried.
CN is 9k RIQ! Now they should be semi ready to tank FBI because they got into RIQ? Do people who believe this actually regularly go to RI/AQ without a pre made or with near Min iL reqs? Clear disconnect. That is ideal but its not like that. Is about over all experience not exceptions.
If Seals of the Crown from CR and UES are the only decent things in REQ (The End Game and Separate Queue) then why are people even concerned with an FBI adjustment? Theres even less incentive. No one will get anything for free, no automatic completion or boosted to end game.
Sure, Min iL was lowered to keep players away from that content until 17k lol. If you get more for your time elsewhere then completing end game dungeons that is a loot/balancing issue of its own.
What? It's like a complete disparity between what is written and what you posted about.
So asking if an adjustment is due for RAQ dungeon = automatic speed run and completion? Well if you are end game geared and exp. I guess lol. Pre mades are speed runs already, this is about RQ and it wont become a speed run for anyone at base iL / not over geared or exp. unless carried.
So why people expect it to be a speed-run? And if you are successful now with mostly nonfunctional semi afk group of undetermined skill and ask it to be easier, then what will happen? it will be faster.
At what point are people over geared for FBI? Min iL is 11k! 11k is over geared? The norm? Under geared? Where are all the calls for 11k FBI groups, I've seen none!!! Players are being told go pre made to have a decent experience; Speed run it and or get carried.
I don't see any checks for IL for FBI, people just make groups and go there. But what is this related to anyway? And you think that if the entire group goes at minimum IL, with no communication, with disparity in skill, for example never needed to tank anything, and should just succeed to do FBI in under half hour?
CN is 9k RIQ! Now they should be semi ready to tank FBI because they got into RIQ? Do people who believe this actually regularly go to RI/AQ without a pre made or with near Min iL reqs? Clear disconnect. That is ideal but its not like that. Is about over all experience not exceptions.
Now they won't be ready even to use encounters, and can finish it with at-will only, because people cried and whined and CN got nerfed into the useless heap of skirmish that it is. Buff it, and it will be useful as linear progression.
If Seals of the Crown from CR and UES are the only decent things in REQ (The End Game and Separate Queue) then why are people even concerned with an FBI adjustment? Theres even less incentive. No one will get anything for free, no automatic completion or boosted to end game.
Read above, because when you remove all and any obstacles on the way, people get to the end and get a cliff. You don't want an unscalable cliff, you want stairs.
Sure, Min iL was lowered to keep players away from that content until 17k lol. If you get more for your time elsewhere then completing end game dungeons that is a loot/balancing issue of its own.
No idea where you got the 17k or what you want here..
Post edited by micky1p00 on
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,154Arc User
Do a forum search for Orcus nerf. You will find all you need to know. Same things being said there as are here now. Idk if you were around then for that but some of these forum posters definitely were so they seen this before. Explains a lot.
There is a bad and frankly outdated culture being promoted in the game and forums, one which the devs seem to be working away from but will not be achieved until things like RQ FBI are looked into and addressed. A healthy RQ will benefit the majority and the game in turn.
Look at some of the "advice" being given here: Git gud / berating, hyperbole, ignore RA/EQ until 17k and posting YT links of players soloin things to justify trash mobs hitting harder then their bosses. These are not the comments I would expect to see from such experienced players.
I'm sorry, but there is an obligation on the player to improve their character and learn the mechanics of whatever they happen to be in/want to run. The main problem here is that a lot of people don't want to be in those teaching experiences when someone is first learning. This is apparent when in the first week of Ravenloft people are calling out "CR exp only!"
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
Look at some of the "advice" being given here: Git gud / berating, hyperbole, ignore RA/EQ until 17k and posting YT links of players soloin things to justify trash mobs hitting harder then their bosses. These are not the comments I would expect to see from such experienced players.
The point is that you do not *need* the higher level dungeons in order to progress. So people with low IL has no reason to demand to be able to do them. The dungeons will be there waiting for them when they have geared up to a sufficient IL.
Meanwhile it is the low IL players that DO create a problem for us that can run RAQ successfully by signing up for RAQ with an IL that is so low that is creates nonfunctional groups in 90% of the RAQ instances.
The IL limit for RAQ should be increased to 13k at least. While 13k might still be too low for successful RAQ runs, at least the probability of getting a working group would increase.
Personally I have tanked FBI with a GF Tank spec and had no real trouble what so ever with any part of the dungeon. Sure I may have died twice but I be first to state the deaths was my own fault for standing in red and not actually using my shield when I should have. So it was not the dungeon being hard that made me die. The real issue with FBI even MSP is that people that que in for them have no real clue on what is happening. They look at the mobs as any other mobs and dps as they would any other mob. Then they die to a 1 shot and are clueless why. My only negative thing I will say in regards to fbi even msp is the drops are useless. If your done with the skt campaigne then you wont really need the relics for blood. Sure maybe for keys but if you already have keys and blood then you dont need it. I say the dungeon is just fine the way it is and people should take more time to learn mechanics. I also strongly believe the cryptic team should change all dungeon rewards because really they all sorta suck. Why do people farm tong for ues thats it. Just 1 reward worth having now thats lame in my opinion.
That's the thing, no one is asking or expects a speed run but you said it before and again now. In several posts you have said its going to turn extremely easy, people want instant gratification and don't want a challenge amongst other things of that type.
None of that has to happen for adjustment(s) to be made. It might lol but it doesn't have to. If for e.g the hill climb was reduced there is still the rest of the dungeon to face. If that is the only "challenge" something is wrong in the dungeons priorities.
And if you are successful now with mostly nonfunctional semi afk group of undetermined skill and ask it to be easier, then what will happen? it will be faster.
Yes generally it will become easier or we might get surprised with something different. Doubt it but w/e. It would still not be a speed run unless players are exp. and over geared.
Those mostly non-functional, semi afk goups/players leave or get kicked from RQ without hesitation. Any run compromised of such is only successful because determined over geared and exp. players carry the run. A far cry from everyone is bad and it still gets done that you imply.
Please tell me you see the negative sides of this for both the low and high iL players.
I don't see any checks for IL for FBI, people just make groups and go there. But what is this related to anyway?
This relates to players perspective in regards to the dungeon. Instead of having people who want FBI at Min iL with other Min iL players since it has been lowered, we don't see it. It is speed ran in pre made and or carried. But by all means try to avoid the RQ FBI unless you know you can carry it or get carried.
I am of the opinion that the iL for RA/EQ should be higher than currently is instead of dungeons being nerfd but the lowering of the iL by the devs to make it more accessible goes against that. Maybe it might be changed but I will not hold my breath waiting for it.
Since its been lowered and is both old and not needed by end game players its should be adjusted for the new characters/players targeted, then we might actually see groups forming at/around Min iL for it.
And you think that if the entire group goes at minimum IL, with no communication, with disparity in skill, for example never needed to tank anything, and should just succeed to do FBI in under half hour?
No I don't. But what we are seeing in this content is even worse then what you are describing imo.
Now they won't be ready even to use encounters, and can finish it with at-will only, because people cried and whined and CN got nerfed into the useless heap of skirmish that it is. Buff it, and it will be useful as linear progression.
Read above, because when you remove all and any obstacles on the way, people get to the end and get a cliff. You don't want an unscalable cliff, you want stairs.
From my understanding CN was never actually hard for end game players for many reasons but just like now many at lvl players or near struggled big time. CN was nerfd for a reason and you are still "crying and whining" about it.....
Yes linear progression is good imo. However it would seem you want to take two steps back and one step forward in order to achieve it and we already have that cliff in FBI and I don't believe having the old Orcus would have solved it as the game stands atm, it would just be ignored like FBI.
I'm sorry, but there is an obligation on the player to improve their character and learn the mechanics of whatever they happen to be in/want to run. The main problem here is that a lot of people don't want to be in those teaching experiences when someone is first learning. This is apparent when in the first week of Ravenloft people are calling out "CR exp only!"
Yes I get the obligation part, agree with it and also put it into practice myself where/when needed. However people have to learn the mechanics or get carried in RA/EQ. Other outcome is the exp. players leave them to it or kick them. Simple as. You are describing full/part pre mades for the brand spanking new content.
In relation to FBI RQ what is happening is players stuck on trash mobs before they even get to the bosses to experience any of their mechanics. This is not a good thing first impressions and all. They are not even eased into it. Just bam dead.....Omg this is going to take forever, the bosses must be so hard, forget this, pointless game is pointless Raaaawr never seen again or so it goes in my mind.
The point is that you do not *need* the higher level dungeons in order to progress. So people with low IL has no reason to demand to be able to do them. The dungeons will be there waiting for them when they have geared up to a sufficient IL.
Meanwhile it is the low IL players that DO create a problem for us that can run RAQ successfully by signing up for RAQ with an IL that is so low that is creates nonfunctional groups in 90% of the RAQ instances.
The IL limit for RAQ should be increased to 13k at least. While 13k might still be too low for successful RAQ runs, at least the probability of getting a working group would increase.
Yes people don't need them but people want them. Not only do they want them, they want to have a "decent" experience while in them. Nothing wrong with that for a game. Obviously there should be lines drawn imo and they usually come in the form of end game content and as mention by others linear progression but I haven't seen or heard anyone demanding that they must automatically complete them.
I agree with the iL comments you make as its been a big part of most my comments and experience in the RQ. What you previously said though wasn't helpful in any way lol. You basically said for players to stay away from that content until 17k Now if that is what you consider appropriately geared for the content then even the 13k you suggested is miles behind in terms of effective contribution.
You and I might have the patience/willingness/means etc. to get to 17k+ but if this was the case for the majority then I doubt the iL would have been lowered. Instead I guess its to encourage players to get there by experiencing the content and staying around but FBI is having the opposite affect in its current state imho.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
That's the thing, no one is asking or expects a speed run but you said it before and again now. In several posts you have said its going to turn extremely easy, people want instant gratification and don't want a challenge amongst other things of that type.
None of that has to happen for adjustment(s) to be made. It might lol but it doesn't have to. If for e.g the hill climb was reduced there is still the rest of the dungeon to face. If that is the only "challenge" something is wrong in the dungeons priorities.
I don't think you are correct here, I'm mainly looking at the posted video and the description of the OP. That group, perhaps average for RQ, perhaps not, died again and again, for various reasons, some are more relevant to the "linear progress", like specifically the best way to tank this is to kite in a circle and keep the mobs in the middle, and people shouldn't go one by one, or the mechanics of the orc with the reinforcement, smoke bomb, focusing targets, others less, that the TR went AFK after first death or so, but sorry I digress, the point is that even with all that, at the end, they succeeded, took an hour or so, but they succeeded. When you take something successful, with, I hope you agree, far from optimal group, and you ask to make it easier, you get it faster.. This is in-fact asking for an easy 'speed-run'. Obviously not the 6 minutes speed run, but the essence is the same. You get the same thing but faster and smoother.
Yes generally it will become easier or we might get surprised with something different. Doubt it but w/e. It would still not be a speed run unless players are exp. and over geared.
Or the content is made relatively easy enough. It is all relative, you can say that someone who did t1,t2,cn is exp enough and geared enough or you may say that only someone that did CR and 17k is experienced enough and geared enough, it depends on what you want to achieve and with what content.
Those mostly non-functional, semi afk goups/players leave or get kicked from RQ without hesitation. Any run compromised of such is only successful because determined over geared and exp. players carry the run. A far cry from everyone is bad and it still gets done that you imply.
Few things: First, I mostly refer what was described and shown, that specific group didn't look overly experienced, or over-geared, yet they succeeded. You don't need all of it, you don't need to be experienced, over-geared and carry. FBI originally was made as end-game similar or for lower gear than now in those RQ, ignore the IL for a moment and look at the stats, and weapon damage, that is given practically for free as catchup. All you need is determination and a bit communication. Yet, ofc, I'm well aware that there is neither there usually.
Second, I do not want to just throw the word 'bad', lets just say that there is a lot to improve, same as if I compare myself to many other players.
To your point, lets assume that they mostly fail. Why would they fail the hill climb?
I would guess it will be one or more of the following:
Wrong gear - even from the cheap / free stuff, or easy to get now gear people need to actually get it, and choose the right thing.
Wrong build - People who got so far based on tooltips and what worked for them so far.
Lack of team play - Rushing ahead, not letting the tank to aggro, no awareness to other classes, and positioning. Or classes.
Lack of skill/experience - I don't mean this is berating, but as in all things we do, the more we do it, the better we do it. As long as there is challenge->improvement
And lack of patience - "We did VT in 10 minutes, I"m here 5 minutes already, I'm not doing this" boom, leave.
Probably other things too.
Now, everyone and their character and personal responsibility, some will check builds or read about the dungeons, or ask a first run from a guild, other will not, but I'm not here to judge (well too much), the point here is that all of the above problems are heavily encouraged by the overall difficulty design.
You get extremely easy, e.g. anyone doing the coffins mechanics in VT? Anyone saying "Oh we got eToS, lets ask the tank to slot AoC" Most do not care... It's coma inducing easy, that people do not bother to improve their stats, check builds, learn to tank/dps/buff/heal or whatever, no communication needed, and get used to smooth 15 minute runs, and much worse if in RQ they get someone who will carry. And so so so much worse in the leveling dungeons, if they get the running level 70...
And then they get to FBI.. and the hill tells them... NOPE.. "git gud" "l2p" This shouldn't have happened, but the fix is not in making the same issue worse, by nerfing FBI, as you only shift the same problem to the next dungeon, to tomb/msp or whatever.
The fix is to encourage players to actually do dungeons as dungeons, learn mechanics, learn the class, some team work, and patience. It doesn't mean that every dungeon will now take an hour, on the contrary, the same FBI will have a much higher success chance and smoother runs for the same average RQ because people will be more patient, and more prepared. Ofc, it's not magic, there will always be the kickers and the leavers, and the idiots, but perhaps they will quit the game at the first difficulty and save everyone time, them and us for dealing with them.
I don't see any checks for IL for FBI, people just make groups and go there. But what is this related to anyway?
This relates to players perspective in regards to the dungeon. Instead of having people who want FBI at Min iL with other Min iL players since it has been lowered, we don't see it. It is speed ran in pre made and or carried. But by all means try to avoid the RQ FBI unless you know you can carry it or get carried.
And what dungeon you ever saw people make groups in /lfg and ask for the minimal IL as standard? Also why is the minimal IL for a single person must assure completion for a group of minimal IL?
I am of the opinion that the iL for RA/EQ should be higher than currently is instead of dungeons being nerfd but the lowering of the iL by the devs to make it more accessible goes against that. Maybe it might be changed but I will not hold my breath waiting for it.
While rising the IL will rise the success / speed or the dungeons, IMO, it's not the best solution. The mentality of over-gearing is what allows the lack of other factors that I've mentioned previously, and this is what encourages the public /lfg of LF2 for CN DO DC 17k+ (I"m exaggerating for the example... but things do happen). People are too used to over-gearing and it creates a bigger problem, in making groups, the time it takes to run, and unfortunately in large part in the rewards in each dungeon.
Since its been lowered and is both old and not needed by end game players its should be adjusted for the new characters/players targeted, then we might actually see groups forming at/around Min iL for it.
Again, do you see someone making 9k IL (or how much it is now there, 7.5k?) groups for VT? You will not. Because a dungeon is old, and semi-obsolete, there is no reason to make it even more obsolete. Those players who will now do a nerfed FBI, how they are supposed to progress from there? They are supposed to do Tomb..? Lets see someone who could only do a nerfed FBI enter Tomb? So next thing it will be the same post, "Tomb is 2 mods old, isn't it time to nerf it?"
-- BTW, anyone noticed the double new lines the forum started to add... Breaks the formatting...
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Now they won't be ready even to use encounters, and can finish it with at-will only, because people cried and whined and CN got nerfed into the useless heap of skirmish that it is. Buff it, and it will be useful as linear progression.
Read above, because when you remove all and any obstacles on the way, people get to the end and get a cliff. You don't want an unscalable cliff, you want stairs.
From my understanding CN was never actually hard for end game players for many reasons but just like now many at lvl players or near struggled big time. CN was nerfd for a reason and you are still "crying and whining" about it.....
Yes linear progression is good imo. However it would seem you want to take two steps back and one step forward in order to achieve it and we already have that cliff in FBI and I don't believe having the old Orcus would have solved it as the game stands atm, it would just be ignored like FBI.
Why it is two steps back? And why you think FBI is ignored? From what I see it's the preferred option in that queue.
And considering the reason for the nerf was crying and whining, I'm now providing an established working reason of crying and whining to buff it.
Haha.. this thread is really entertaining.. I've said this numerous times.. 5 competent players can do all content. Item level and all the other <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> which through first impressions hppeb is misleading.. before ppl question my integrity.. let me tell you this, I have done tonnes of random queues. If there was a statistic for it, I probably may be at the upper echelon. I supported the public queues right from when it was conceived by the devs because I truly believed in them.
Why so? I'm not putting it out there right now because it would entirely deter from what this thread is all about. Random queues suffer from a major problem and that is ppl in plenty being there who have no clue how to make the best use of their class even at entry level. I'm not going to talk about myself since those who know me at random queues will put out rubbish that my item level doesn't qualify to talk about newbies.. I didn't reach where I'm at magically either. I started where everyone starts and slowly progressed when I felt it was time to do so.
I'm going to talk about a player i came across 2 days back named "gino" since that's very generic and hence no naming and shaming. He/she didn't have much to offer and I made my first impressions as such when I entered the random queue. It was fbi, ppl died here and there cause of their stupidity but not gino and then I started noticing him supporting me doing what he could as a ss cw.. that person astonished me because he/she was smart enough not to get himself/herself in positions where they would die. Just as we reached the drufi, the other so called idiots started a vote kick and booted poor ol gino and my anger got the most of me and I let all hell let loose. I insulted their existence , their ignorance and their guilds (sigh, not a proud moment but I did so) for letting loosers queue up. But anywhoo.. I generally don't add friends from my side unless I see something exceptional and usually I add notes to remember why I added him/her but I did add gino to my list and now from that time onwards we did plenty of dungeons together and his/her improvement has been tremendous. Moral of the story is the ppl can easily do all content if they just know the basics of their class, more importantly their shift ability which 95% of the time I see ppl ignoring in the random queues.
This shouldn't have happened, but the fix is not in making the same issue worse, by nerfing FBI, as you only shift the same problem to the next dungeon, to tomb/msp or whatever.
That's right! Which is where the 'problem' should be at! In dungeons that actually provide compensatory rewards for all of that effort.
You want teams to struggle and suffer in 1 hour+ FBI runs, with rewards that at this point are no better than CN. Why?
- We don't have to agree and I welcome your disagreement/pov. I understand and agree with parts of your 2nd from last post here but again faster does not = speed run to me.
- Yes its all relative and I am approaching it from personal experience in the RQs as both the Min iL and above. This is not a positive experience imho.
- That clip with all its "failings" was no where near the worse I have experienced. Props to them for sticking through it.
- Yes so we both agree FBI is not end game content; that's why I'm personally ok with it being adjusted. I see no reasons that warrant no change except end game players concerns and that They (not the gearing up ones) like the difficulty/challenge and don't want it adjusted. This to me is/would not be enough.
- Again this is not my wants/needs but a honest and neutral pov.
- My guess why most fail in RQ and wait till over geared/exp. players appear to get completion is a mixture of the things you pointed out. But it is for the devs to look at and decide what's best for their game.
- I would think when more end game content gets introduced a re-shuffle of queues and hopefully loot would happen to reflect the age and target audience its for. eg. Tomb etc being replaced with something else but I wouldn't expect tonnes of this to happen any time soon.
- I like the sound of your ideal situation but it doesn't line up with what we are being given, just like my preference about raising iL doesn't.
- Groups forming around Min iL is My ideal RQ because then the majority are comfortable jumping into content without forming pre-made. Again this doesn't mean they get automatic/guaranteed completion. The fact we don't see this speaks volumes to me.
- I have noticed and mentioned the weird progression/rewards in other threads before too.
- RAQ MDEMO for non pre-made or anything that isn't MSP/FBI. This doesn't need explaining
- I consider a change to this to be negligible. Your concerns about people wanting more and more once you give a little are valid, however to me there are bigger battles to fight if/when they occur; Choose your battles wisely so to speak.
I hope this gives you enough insight to my reasoning, I have already said more then I initially wanted to but a lot of things were being misrepresented intentionally/unintentionally or from mpov unnecessarily, its all about perspective I suppose. Have a good w/end / week
- Yes so we both agree FBI is not end game content; that's why I'm personally ok with it being adjusted. I see no reasons that warrant no change except end game players concerns and that They (not the gearing up ones) like the difficulty/challenge and don't want it adjusted. This to me is/would not be enough.
And I've just explained that there is an aspect that has nothing to do with "geared people like", adjusting FBI down creates a gap in which people arrive to Tomb and have no clue how to play. Because nothing required of them to learn, and they just used the free gear to overcome any difficulty.
- My guess why most fail in RQ and wait till over geared/exp. players appear to get completion is a mixture of the things you pointed out. But it is for the devs to look at and decide what's best for their game.
Devs do not have some 'godhood' of game understanding, actually if to judge by many decisions that were made, and then reverted or adjusted when many players warned about those in advance, it is more like they are fumbling in the darkness. Consider that many of the more veteran players have more in-game hours than all the devs combined.
- I would think when more end game content gets introduced a re-shuffle of queues and hopefully loot would happen to reflect the age and target audience its for. eg. Tomb etc being replaced with something else but I wouldn't expect tonnes of this to happen any time soon.
Yup, a mod that removes all dungeons and then remakes them as leveling dungeons 10 mods later
- Groups forming around Min iL is My ideal RQ because then the majority are comfortable jumping into content without forming pre-made. Again this doesn't mean they get automatic/guaranteed completion. The fact we don't see this speaks volumes to me.
I don't think that minimal IL is where people should be comfortable into jumping into content. What is the point of picking stats, build, teamwork, etc.. if the minimal requirement of a dungeon is already enough gear to comfortably ignore all that.
- I consider a change to this to be negligible. Your concerns about people wanting more and more once you give a little are valid, however to me there are bigger battles to fight if/when they occur; Choose your battles wisely so to speak.
negligible + negligible +... it adds up, and we are going into the wrong direction. Useless content with useless rewards, with mind numbing repetitiveness. Old CN took a bit over an hour for an average noob party like us then, and net a mil AD, now you (general) run 20 min tomb for a chance of a chance of a chance of something. And it took cooperation and work, now you just get enough IL and burn.
I hope this gives you enough insight to my reasoning, I have already said more then I initially wanted to but a lot of things were being misrepresented intentionally/unintentionally or from mpov unnecessarily, its all about perspective I suppose. Have a good w/end / week
Good week.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,154Arc User
In relation to FBI RQ what is happening is players stuck on trash mobs before they even get to the bosses to experience any of their mechanics. This is not a good thing first impressions and all. They are not even eased into it. Just bam dead.....Omg this is going to take forever, the bosses must be so hard, forget this, pointless game is pointless Raaaawr never seen again or so it goes in my mind.
Climbing the hill is one the mechanics they have to learn.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,154Arc User
When Tomb is over TWO YEARS old, and no longer offers rewards that are any better than prior dungeons, and is just another farming dungeon, then yes.
To9G is already just another farming dungeon. Was that when they dropped it.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
Comments
As to the topic at hand, I think FBI could use a slight tweak. I'm fine with dungeons scaling up in difficulty. I get that FBI is that 'next step' for a lot of players- unfortunately, that 'next step' isn't a slight or even moderate incline for the players, its a sheer cliff. There is nothing (to my knowledge) that FBI provides that is useful for a player gearing up for 'endgame', beyond the seals / RP - which are more easily acquired elsewhere.
Even something as small as spreading the mobs on the climb out a bit, and ditching orc messenger just past the first camp would make a tremendous difference, IMO.
The point chemjeff is making, I think, is that, with an expected ilevel of 11k (?) to enter, it should be possible to do it in a semi-decent PUG. This often isn't the case - why is that? The answer generally isn't 'git gud, n00b'. Either the ilevel requirements are set too low (possible), or the design is suspect. If the latter, it should be adjusted. I don't think anyone is asking for it to be another etos, but any sort of half-decent PUG should be able to make the hill climb without a whole lot of issues.
I don't know they should necessarily NERF the DUNGEON.
But HONESTLY - I wish they would try to limit the minimum gear score players to one or two my Corellon that's the least they should try to do. And there is no reason if they have 1-2 at the bare minimum they can't try to find 1 player that's +16.5k to compensate for every player of near minimum gear score for a dungeon? No?
I think ultimately, if they had removed the restrictions on queuing (unlock and everfrost) and left the old Random Epic Queue, it would have been an improvement. Removing that requirement and also moving the two offending dungeons to a new queue isn't that great.
Okay, so how far do you want to take this? You already want the mod 8 CN back with the hard-hitting Orcus. So we should need a "solid team" for that too. What about EToS/EGWD/ECC? Maybe we should bring back the Mod 6 "Arpen Bug" and make those super-hard too so that we need a "solid team" for those too. What about the older dungeons? Maybe we should make MC/VT hard again like they were when they launched, when the team needed to pay attention to mechanics. At what point does a dungeon get old enough that it no longer is a place where a "solid team" is absolutely needed, and is just for farming? That is partly my point. FBI is two years old now. In my view, I really shouldn't have to organize a premade to find that "solid team" for a two-year-old dungeon.
The dungeon is now a 9k Min iL place and we have the ability to get 18k+ iL! Bosses get one phased.
Maybe that's what never should have been allowed. But they were.
There are plenty of worse things that can happen besides the nerf of FBI or aspects there of.
You want a 'speed-run', then either overgear, or skill, or teamwork / synergy, or any combination of the above. But without those, why it should be extremely easy? Why it shouldn't take an hour?
The fact that it is two years old, gives you one of the above, crapton of power creep and gear that allows people to blindly Rambo any dungeon, but if you don't have those.. then it is a dungeon like any dungeon.
A person who tanked T2, should be semi ready to tank CN orcus. A person who tanked CN orcus, should be semi ready to tank FBI, and so on to MSP, Tomb, etc..
A progress path of better gear, better skill, and better mechanics understanding. Anyone who wants to speed-farm should go to something they outskilled, overgeared, or have the party to do it.
So you don't really _need_ to run the hard dungeons until you are at the very end of your character development, at which point you should be past 17k IL or so.
So lower geared people can stay away from FBI/MSP/Cradle/Tong/CR without suffering any gear disability. From an efficiency point of view they probably should.. you get more from your time spent elsewhere in game.
At what point are people over geared for FBI? Min iL is 11k! 11k is over geared? The norm? Under geared? Where are all the calls for 11k FBI groups, I've seen none!!! Players are being told go pre made to have a decent experience; Speed run it and or get carried.
CN is 9k RIQ! Now they should be semi ready to tank FBI because they got into RIQ? Do people who believe this actually regularly go to RI/AQ without a pre made or with near Min iL reqs? Clear disconnect. That is ideal but its not like that. Is about over all experience not exceptions.
If Seals of the Crown from CR and UES are the only decent things in REQ (The End Game and Separate Queue) then why are people even concerned with an FBI adjustment? Theres even less incentive. No one will get anything for free, no automatic completion or boosted to end game.
Sure, Min iL was lowered to keep players away from that content until 17k lol. If you get more for your time elsewhere then completing end game dungeons that is a loot/balancing issue of its own.
There is a bad and frankly outdated culture being promoted in the game and forums, one which the devs seem to be working away from but will not be achieved until things like RQ FBI are looked into and addressed. A healthy RQ will benefit the majority and the game in turn.
Look at some of the "advice" being given here: Git gud / berating, hyperbole, ignore RA/EQ until 17k and posting YT links of players soloin things to justify trash mobs hitting harder then their bosses. These are not the comments I would expect to see from such experienced players.
It's like a complete disparity between what is written and what you posted about.
I'll try anyway: So why people expect it to be a speed-run? And if you are successful now with mostly nonfunctional semi afk group of undetermined skill and ask it to be easier, then what will happen? it will be faster. I don't see any checks for IL for FBI, people just make groups and go there. But what is this related to anyway? And you think that if the entire group goes at minimum IL, with no communication, with disparity in skill, for example never needed to tank anything, and should just succeed to do FBI in under half hour? Now they won't be ready even to use encounters, and can finish it with at-will only, because people cried and whined and CN got nerfed into the useless heap of skirmish that it is. Buff it, and it will be useful as linear progression. Read above, because when you remove all and any obstacles on the way, people get to the end and get a cliff. You don't want an unscalable cliff, you want stairs. No idea where you got the 17k or what you want here..
Meanwhile it is the low IL players that DO create a problem for us that can run RAQ successfully by signing up for RAQ with an IL that is so low that is creates nonfunctional groups in 90% of the RAQ instances.
The IL limit for RAQ should be increased to 13k at least. While 13k might still be too low for successful RAQ runs, at least the probability of getting a working group would increase.
I say the dungeon is just fine the way it is and people should take more time to learn mechanics. I also strongly believe the cryptic team should change all dungeon rewards because really they all sorta suck. Why do people farm tong for ues thats it. Just 1 reward worth having now thats lame in my opinion.
Everything I wrote was relevant to a few previous posters comments although I did not tag anyone. I will make this easier to understand. That's the thing, no one is asking or expects a speed run but you said it before and again now. In several posts you have said its going to turn extremely easy, people want instant gratification and don't want a challenge amongst other things of that type.
None of that has to happen for adjustment(s) to be made. It might lol but it doesn't have to. If for e.g the hill climb was reduced there is still the rest of the dungeon to face. If that is the only "challenge" something is wrong in the dungeons priorities. Yes generally it will become easier or we might get surprised with something different. Doubt it but w/e. It would still not be a speed run unless players are exp. and over geared.
Those mostly non-functional, semi afk goups/players leave or get kicked from RQ without hesitation. Any run compromised of such is only successful because determined over geared and exp. players carry the run. A far cry from everyone is bad and it still gets done that you imply.
Please tell me you see the negative sides of this for both the low and high iL players. This relates to players perspective in regards to the dungeon. Instead of having people who want FBI at Min iL with other Min iL players since it has been lowered, we don't see it. It is speed ran in pre made and or carried. But by all means try to avoid the RQ FBI unless you know you can carry it or get carried.
I am of the opinion that the iL for RA/EQ should be higher than currently is instead of dungeons being nerfd but the lowering of the iL by the devs to make it more accessible goes against that. Maybe it might be changed but I will not hold my breath waiting for it.
Since its been lowered and is both old and not needed by end game players its should be adjusted for the new characters/players targeted, then we might actually see groups forming at/around Min iL for it. No I don't. But what we are seeing in this content is even worse then what you are describing imo. From my understanding CN was never actually hard for end game players for many reasons but just like now many at lvl players or near struggled big time. CN was nerfd for a reason and you are still "crying and whining" about it.....
Yes linear progression is good imo. However it would seem you want to take two steps back and one step forward in order to achieve it and we already have that cliff in FBI and I don't believe having the old Orcus would have solved it as the game stands atm, it would just be ignored like FBI. This was part of the post that was addressing what @mentinmindmaker wrote.
In relation to FBI RQ what is happening is players stuck on trash mobs before they even get to the bosses to experience any of their mechanics. This is not a good thing first impressions and all. They are not even eased into it. Just bam dead.....Omg this is going to take forever, the bosses must be so hard, forget this, pointless game is pointless Raaaawr never seen again or so it goes in my mind.
I agree with the iL comments you make as its been a big part of most my comments and experience in the RQ. What you previously said though wasn't helpful in any way lol. You basically said for players to stay away from that content until 17k
You and I might have the patience/willingness/means etc. to get to 17k+ but if this was the case for the majority then I doubt the iL would have been lowered. Instead I guess its to encourage players to get there by experiencing the content and staying around but FBI is having the opposite affect in its current state imho.
When you take something successful, with, I hope you agree, far from optimal group, and you ask to make it easier, you get it faster..
This is in-fact asking for an easy 'speed-run'. Obviously not the 6 minutes speed run, but the essence is the same. You get the same thing but faster and smoother. Or the content is made relatively easy enough. It is all relative, you can say that someone who did t1,t2,cn is exp enough and geared enough or you may say that only someone that did CR and 17k is experienced enough and geared enough, it depends on what you want to achieve and with what content. Few things:
First, I mostly refer what was described and shown, that specific group didn't look overly experienced, or over-geared, yet they succeeded. You don't need all of it, you don't need to be experienced, over-geared and carry. FBI originally was made as end-game similar or for lower gear than now in those RQ, ignore the IL for a moment and look at the stats, and weapon damage, that is given practically for free as catchup. All you need is determination and a bit communication.
Yet, ofc, I'm well aware that there is neither there usually.
Second, I do not want to just throw the word 'bad', lets just say that there is a lot to improve, same as if I compare myself to many other players.
To your point, lets assume that they mostly fail.
Why would they fail the hill climb?
I would guess it will be one or more of the following:
Wrong gear - even from the cheap / free stuff, or easy to get now gear people need to actually get it, and choose the right thing.
Wrong build - People who got so far based on tooltips and what worked for them so far.
Lack of team play - Rushing ahead, not letting the tank to aggro, no awareness to other classes, and positioning. Or classes.
Lack of skill/experience - I don't mean this is berating, but as in all things we do, the more we do it, the better we do it. As long as there is challenge->improvement
And lack of patience - "We did VT in 10 minutes, I"m here 5 minutes already, I'm not doing this" boom, leave.
Probably other things too.
Now, everyone and their character and personal responsibility, some will check builds or read about the dungeons, or ask a first run from a guild, other will not, but I'm not here to judge (well too much), the point here is that all of the above problems are heavily encouraged by the overall difficulty design.
You get extremely easy, e.g. anyone doing the coffins mechanics in VT? Anyone saying "Oh we got eToS, lets ask the tank to slot AoC"
Most do not care... It's coma inducing easy, that people do not bother to improve their stats, check builds, learn to tank/dps/buff/heal or whatever, no communication needed, and get used to smooth 15 minute runs, and much worse if in RQ they get someone who will carry.
And so so so much worse in the leveling dungeons, if they get the running level 70...
And then they get to FBI.. and the hill tells them... NOPE.. "git gud" "l2p"
This shouldn't have happened, but the fix is not in making the same issue worse, by nerfing FBI, as you only shift the same problem to the next dungeon, to tomb/msp or whatever.
The fix is to encourage players to actually do dungeons as dungeons, learn mechanics, learn the class, some team work, and patience. It doesn't mean that every dungeon will now take an hour, on the contrary, the same FBI will have a much higher success chance and smoother runs for the same average RQ because people will be more patient, and more prepared.
Ofc, it's not magic, there will always be the kickers and the leavers, and the idiots, but perhaps they will quit the game at the first difficulty and save everyone time, them and us for dealing with them.
And what dungeon you ever saw people make groups in /lfg and ask for the minimal IL as standard?
Also why is the minimal IL for a single person must assure completion for a group of minimal IL? While rising the IL will rise the success / speed or the dungeons, IMO, it's not the best solution. The mentality of over-gearing is what allows the lack of other factors that I've mentioned previously, and this is what encourages the public /lfg of LF2 for CN DO DC 17k+ (I"m exaggerating for the example... but things do happen).
People are too used to over-gearing and it creates a bigger problem, in making groups, the time it takes to run, and unfortunately in large part in the rewards in each dungeon. Again, do you see someone making 9k IL (or how much it is now there, 7.5k?) groups for VT? You will not.
Because a dungeon is old, and semi-obsolete, there is no reason to make it even more obsolete. Those players who will now do a nerfed FBI, how they are supposed to progress from there? They are supposed to do Tomb..? Lets see someone who could only do a nerfed FBI enter Tomb? So next thing it will be the same post, "Tomb is 2 mods old, isn't it time to nerf it?"
-- BTW, anyone noticed the double new lines the forum started to add... Breaks the formatting...
And considering the reason for the nerf was crying and whining, I'm now providing an established working reason of crying and whining to buff it.
Why so? I'm not putting it out there right now because it would entirely deter from what this thread is all about. Random queues suffer from a major problem and that is ppl in plenty being there who have no clue how to make the best use of their class even at entry level. I'm not going to talk about myself since those who know me at random queues will put out rubbish that my item level doesn't qualify to talk about newbies.. I didn't reach where I'm at magically either. I started where everyone starts and slowly progressed when I felt it was time to do so.
I'm going to talk about a player i came across 2 days back named "gino" since that's very generic and hence no naming and shaming. He/she didn't have much to offer and I made my first impressions as such when I entered the random queue. It was fbi, ppl died here and there cause of their stupidity but not gino and then I started noticing him supporting me doing what he could as a ss cw.. that person astonished me because he/she was smart enough not to get himself/herself in positions where they would die. Just as we reached the drufi, the other so called idiots started a vote kick and booted poor ol gino and my anger got the most of me and I let all hell let loose. I insulted their existence , their ignorance and their guilds (sigh, not a proud moment but I did so) for letting loosers queue up. But anywhoo.. I generally don't add friends from my side unless I see something exceptional and usually I add notes to remember why I added him/her but I did add gino to my list and now from that time onwards we did plenty of dungeons together and his/her improvement has been tremendous. Moral of the story is the ppl can easily do all content if they just know the basics of their class, more importantly their shift ability which 95% of the time I see ppl ignoring in the random queues.
You want teams to struggle and suffer in 1 hour+ FBI runs, with rewards that at this point are no better than CN. Why?
- Yes its all relative and I am approaching it from personal experience in the RQs as both the Min iL and above. This is not a positive experience imho.
- That clip with all its "failings" was no where near the worse I have experienced. Props to them for sticking through it.
- Yes so we both agree FBI is not end game content; that's why I'm personally ok with it being adjusted. I see no reasons that warrant no change except end game players concerns and that They (not the gearing up ones) like the difficulty/challenge and don't want it adjusted. This to me is/would not be enough.
- Again this is not my wants/needs but a honest and neutral pov.
- My guess why most fail in RQ and wait till over geared/exp. players appear to get completion is a mixture of the things you pointed out. But it is for the devs to look at and decide what's best for their game.
- I would think when more end game content gets introduced a re-shuffle of queues and hopefully loot would happen to reflect the age and target audience its for. eg. Tomb etc being replaced with something else but I wouldn't expect tonnes of this to happen any time soon.
- I like the sound of your ideal situation but it doesn't line up with what we are being given, just like my preference about raising iL doesn't.
- Groups forming around Min iL is My ideal RQ because then the majority are comfortable jumping into content without forming pre-made. Again this doesn't mean they get automatic/guaranteed completion. The fact we don't see this speaks volumes to me.
- I have noticed and mentioned the weird progression/rewards in other threads before too.
- RAQ MDEMO for non pre-made or anything that isn't MSP/FBI. This doesn't need explaining
- I consider a change to this to be negligible. Your concerns about people wanting more and more once you give a little are valid, however to me there are bigger battles to fight if/when they occur; Choose your battles wisely so to speak.
I hope this gives you enough insight to my reasoning, I have already said more then I initially wanted to but a lot of things were being misrepresented intentionally/unintentionally or from mpov unnecessarily, its all about perspective I suppose. Have a good w/end / week
Consider that many of the more veteran players have more in-game hours than all the devs combined. Yup, a mod that removes all dungeons and then remakes them as leveling dungeons 10 mods later
What is the point of picking stats, build, teamwork, etc.. if the minimal requirement of a dungeon is already enough gear to comfortably ignore all that. negligible + negligible +... it adds up, and we are going into the wrong direction. Useless content with useless rewards, with mind numbing repetitiveness. Old CN took a bit over an hour for an average noob party like us then, and net a mil AD, now you (general) run 20 min tomb for a chance of a chance of a chance of something. And it took cooperation and work, now you just get enough IL and burn.
Good week.