mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
edited September 2017
Here are the results from preview server to see what will happen after the proposed changes on bondings runestones and the interaction with power share. Here is my dc with 37904 base power with rank 12 enchants :
The target with his base power:
The target with his bonding proc ( selfbuff note also the target has rank 12 everything on companion too):
The target with dc buff + bonding proc :
As you can see with my powershare the target goes to 146347 power and the shared power is 146347 - 75421 = 70926
I'll remind you again that this is with rank 12 on both me and the dps target in mod 12b
Here we see the shared power that I give to the DPS target without him having the companion summoned
So we know originally he had 52105 power and with the powershare the target went to 71364 which means 71364 - 52105 = 19259 power
From the data above we can conclude that the powershare to the companion is giving 70296 - 19259= 51037 stat points, as compared to the bondings giving 23316 and this is from one class only and with rank 12 enchants only. You can imagine with r14 and if we add DO and pally, where the stats will go.
With a slight adjust to powershare to give higher than now but acceptable percentages (buff) directly to the player but stop the loop between the powershare --->companion--->player its viable to let bondings as they are at 285% and at the same time reduce the power creep.
12b option one spend 900 dollars to get back my stats? lol! PASS!
12b option 2 grind for TWO YEARS to get back my stats? LOL! NEVER!!
12b option 3 Spend 900 dollars on other games related items and DELETE Neverwinter. YUP!!!
Option 3 it is then.
Update went to pe to try and give away my r12 bondings and r7 and r8 enchants and nobody wanted my stuff since if its not r12 then nobody wants it so just closed application and deleted game.
Hopefully either devs reconsider or Neverwinter ends up being the new Tribes Ascend .
> @tom#6998 said: > sharp alrdy posted facts... u were ignoring them... > > u really think the Powershare is breaking the game? Power is 1 factor for dps and its by far not the biggest. And nerfing Powershare makes it an issue for Classes that use that no point in denying. Do u think that players are way to OP for the newest dungeon? If you have a very good group u can run it pretty fast but nothing i would call worthy of beeing nerfed. I dont see the need for nerfs here. And i doubt the devs do... they are selling us back what the take away now thats a decision based on Money. > > If you want the bonding nerf to be reverted then suggest that but leave the other stuff. > > As i see it u are just on your djihad against DCs again. Maybe u are just proposing this so u dont have to make fake arguments for your mof anymore?
I'm not quite understanding why you have decided to come onto a bonding discussion to not only derail it by continuing this unrelated argument, but to debate using ad hominem attacks. Instead of intellectually tackling the merit of the argument you have attempted to dismiss it by specifically attacking oria1's character. Despite others agreeing with his opinion in the discussion, you have attempted to distract and sidetrack the discussion from the real issues, which are the changes to bondings and the transfer of buffed stats from a companion through bonding runestones.
If you are sure that oria1's opinion is wrong because of their character, then it should be easy for you to tear his argument apart without resorting to insults - right? It shouldn't matter who is saying it, whether it is oria1 or another individual, the strength of the argument should not hinge on the "who", but rather the "what."
I've read through the discussion and thefabricant's primary argument seems to be: Without power sharing to pets, the AC paragon is dead.
Which I disagree with, but as this is a BONDING discussion thread I am not going to derail it with my opinion on why I disagree .
Anyways, the original post stated that the primary concern for the change was that bondings had a massive power difference in comparison to the other runestones. The first attempt at a solution for this was to lower the given % and the uptime %. As so many in this discussion have stated, the imbalance does not necessarily only lie in the given %, it is the fact that bonding runestones are able to transfer buffed companion stats.
Second, the original post also stated that despite the changes players will continue to find the bonding runestones to be the best option. Ignoring the given % changes, the fact that powershare is possible through bonding runestones has and continues to give a major advantage to them over the other runestones. Even with the percentage reduced, players are still able to get great amounts of power as a result of powershare transferring to the character through bondings.
In the original post, the devs also stated that part of their reasoning behind the change is that runestones have been in an odd place for some time where there was only one that anyone cared about due to the massive power difference between Bonding Runestones and all other runestones. The concern that others in this discussion thread are trying to bring awareness to is the fact that powershare transferring through bondings is one of the main reasons for the massive power difference between bondings and other runestones. I am confident that the decision to use a non-augment companion with bondings over augments with runestones will continue to be the same not just due to bondings being slightly better power-wise, but because in a group setting they will gain the additional benefit of powershare through them that is not capable of occurring when using an augment. While it is nice to see an attempt at balance and to make other runestones more inclusive, I do think that the transfer of buffed stats through bondings will continue to allow them to remain supreme over other runestones.
I do not think that it is powershare that is "breaking the game." People are not asking for a class specific nerf, despite what some take it as. People are simply saying that powershare applying not only to your character, but also through bondings is not contributing to the desired balance. Rather, bondings continue to be better then runestones by a large margin in a party setting as a result of powershare transferring through bondings. I think powershare should be applied individually to the character and the companion, but should not be able to be transferred again through a bonding runestone.
We as players ask for more difficult content, but instead we have dungeons that can be run easily in 20 minutes or less. I don't agree with expecting the developers to just make newer difficult content to solve this issue rather then balance what we already have. I hope i'm not alone in wanting to still be able to play older content with more balanced stats and buffs rather then to not attempt to balance and just keep increasing until we are able to CASUALLY complete the current t3 dungeons in like 5-10 minutes. I still would like old content to be playable and still a bit challenging (hopefully with balance), rather then just create another more difficult mod to be our one and only challenge with all older content being too easy.
Okay, here's the deal. TNG is hard not because of how much health orcus has, or how hard hitting Ras-Nsi is. It's hard because of its mechanics. Because IN THE GAME, you have to make compromises. Will your DPS be able to kill Orcus before the temp HP runs out or will he need more buffs? What group composition do we need? Does one DPS stay on Ras-Nsi while the other kills defiant souls? Do we need to use certain powers to make our DPS and tank stay alive or buff their DPS so they can kill souls more easily and therefore maximize the possibility of finishing the run without the soulmonger charge wiping us?
You see, THAT is the difficulty WE like. Not difficulty because our stats are inadequate and we're limited by gear. We want to be limited by our own skills, so we have to make best of what we have. Nerfing bondings just makes that "skill" requirement a "tolerance" requirement. How much bulls... can you tolerate before you just give up because there's better stuff to do in the game? I DON'T want that to happen. That is just not good for the community, devs OR customers. Remember that your customers are the ones affected the most by this change, and you usually don't want to bite the hand that's feeding you.
All I want is the best for all of us, @nitocris83@noworries#8859 - and the way Mod 12 has been going, it's been great, but this? This is just not good. If I can, I'd like to get into contact with you outside this forum post - a PM maybe or something. Just so I know all the reasons behind this, apologies, but frankly stupid decision. I've got nothing but utmost respect for people who are doing the job I'm afraid to attempt on my own, but there are things outside programming skills and stuff that you need for this. I wish I could help all of you somehow, but it's hard to agree with such decisions. Impossible, really. Mod 12 was a blast, it was fun, challenging, not too grindy (especially compared to Mod 10 and to lesser extent 11), but Mod 12b seems like it's a flop. That's something that none of us want. A mod being bad makes people quit, and people quitting means less runs - what in turn makes the economy worse, the maps feel deserted and it just doesn't keep the simple joy of randomly thwacking things with people you've never seen and probably never will see again, and then doing content you love with your friends, joining them in a nice talk while you discuss strategies, builds and such. A lot of people I know are NOT satisfied with this, and heck, I can make a Gaussian function graph for you where I could mathematically prove that there are more people dissatisfied with this than the opposite. I'll do everything required for you to reconsider the changes. I just don't want the game to die. That's all.
Making us re-buy already bought power has already turned people off. Making it so expensive is even worse. Making the end result not change HAMSTER is just insulting.
> @mamalion1234 said: > Here are the results from preview server to see what will happen after the proposed changes on bondings runestones and the interaction with power share. > Here is my dc with 37904 base power with rank 12 enchants : > > > > > > > > The target with his base power: > > > > > > > The target with his bonding proc ( selfbuff note also the target has rank 12 everything on companion too): > > > > > The target with dc buff + bonding proc : > > > > > > > As you can see with my powershare the target goes to 146347 power and the shared power is > 146347 - 75421 = 70926 > > I'll remind you again that this is with rank 12 on both me and the dps target in mod 12b > > Here we see the shared power that I give to the DPS target without him having the companion summoned > > > So we know originally he had 52105 power and with the powershare the target went to 71364 which means > 71364 - 52105 = 19259 power > > From the data above we can conclude that the powershare to the companion is giving > 70296 - 19259= 51037 stat points, as compared to the bondings giving 23316 > and this is from one class only and with rank 12 enchants only. You can imagine with r14 and if we add DO and pally, where the stats will go. > > With a slight adjust to powershare to give higher than now but acceptable percentages (buff) directly to the player but stop the loop between the powershare --->companion--->player its viable to let bondings as they are at 285% and at the same time reduce the power creep.
Something strikes me when I read through all these comments in these 3 controversial threads. Theres a VERY small percentage that have anything to do with fun. Its all about how my stats compared to yours that x power is too much and I dont think you should have that much. Woo lets all head down to the accountants office and compare numbers. Theres a party!/s
Thats just demoralizing right there. The game itself has gotten boring! Admit it. What is it thats a game. Its just repetition. We don't get new content that often, just run the same content literally thousands of times. ...and now between time we get nerfed so they can make us pay for what we already have instead of releasing something like new fashion or player housing that people would throw cash at them for.
'Why do I stay?' you might ask from the above. For me it is MAINLY for my friends and guildies. The rest is boring. Sometimes progressions of something like a guild hall is fun to see, but its not a game, its responsibility that hanging out with my friends makes worthwhile while we wait for the new area that comes every several monthes. (Which they quickly take the joy out of with self afflicted wounds like these changes.)
Lets look at Guild hall level 13 and 14 as a SMALL example of the repetition that I speak of. they take 6500 adventurer shards, 6500 heroic shards and 7500 dungeoneer shards gained 10 at a time (ignoring for the moment the tyranny, dread, influence, etc thats also required).
Thats 650 quests in obsolete areas, 650 of a small selection of SH quests, and 750 dungeon runs. Lets say it takes 2 minutes to do a SH quest, and 10 minutes to do the 3 required in an area (thats pretty quick considering running time), and 20 mins for s speed run of your average requested dungeon. Thats 22 player hours for heroics, 108 player hours for adventurer, 250 player hours for dungeoneering For 2 levels of a guildhall. (OR a massload of heroic chests.) We have the same setup for campaigns, many of which take 1-2 monthes to complete through artificial time gates.
We do get new areas.. which is fun! ..for a few days, maybe a week. And thats understandable because content is hard and expensive to produce (other than the foundry which they have let languish). Problem being that many of us have been playing for years, so that week of fun every 3 monthes can start to wear on you if you don't find something else to enjoy.
So with that repetition what do we have left.. speed runs which are railed against here. What are we supposed to be pondering the beauty of our at wills as we poke orcus to death for literally the 500th time? No we run it. We throw ourselves up on the gates again and again hoping for some tiny reward. And....
Then we run it a little faster. Then a friend runs it a little faster. Then I find a detail that makes it a bit better for me, I add a trick and someone else notices. We run it dozens to hundreds of times refining our technique as we wait for that tiny chance at a jackpot. Doing Hati, the Turtle, or Orcus in x minutes or 'before the zombies' becomes a goal to achieve. Its getting better at the game that we have before us. ..because what else do we have?!
Cut the HAMSTER on all this power balancing for things that we're used to, really arent broken, and much of the game has grown around. Devote time to the stuff that actually is fun. When we have new areas, new puzzles, new fashion, new housing, new customability its fun for all of us. Nerfing for the sake of balance that will never be achieved is this games white whale, and we the passengers on this Pequod are starting to realize that not only are we not getting the ride we signed on for, but the captain doesn't even care.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
12b option one spend 900 dollars to get back my stats? lol! PASS!
12b option 2 grind for TWO YEARS to get back my stats? LOL! NEVER!!
12b option 3 Spend 900 dollars on other games related items and DELETE Neverwinter. YUP!!!
Option 3 it is then.
Update went to pe to try and give away my r12 bondings and r7 and r8 enchants and nobody wanted my stuff since if its not r12 then nobody wants it so just closed application and deleted game.
Hopefully either devs reconsider or Neverwinter ends up being the new Tribes Ascend .
sums it up beautifully
well tbh if i consolodated everything i could get back to bis on day one.. but that would annoy me, its annoying as it is.. and I wont re buy powers due to nerfs.. ever.. wont do that in any game, wont do it here.
Nerfing power we already have and reselling it to us, is just a line that most mmos wouldnt cross, that they crossed it here, is a bit disturbing.
I find it really funny that some of you think removal of power sharing is somehow can to be a magic fix to the game.
Can we stick to the issue of the company ripping away a % of power and reselling it to us, for power we already bought.. its crazy.
That is the only issue we need to discuss.
Agreed. If the developers had done the nerf alone their logic may have squeaked by. But combining it with an offer to buy back some of our lost stats is just reprehensible. Most people can and will see through this.
Is spent $400 on this game last Xmas and was planning the same this Xmas. Last time I bought 3 companions, an epic mount and ranked up my bondings to rank 12.. This Xmas I was going to buy a legendary mount and buy smops to rank up my enchants (closer) to rank 12. That will not be happening if this bonding change goes through.
> @mamalion1234 said: > Here are the results from preview server to see what will happen after the proposed changes on bondings runestones and the interaction with power share. > Here is my dc with 37904 base power with rank 12 enchants : > > With a slight adjust to powershare to give higher than now but acceptable percentages (buff) directly to the player but stop the loop between the powershare --->companion--->player its viable to let bondings as they are at 285% and at the same time reduce the power creep.
How is this different from the situation we have right now? This solves none of the fundamental problems of power creep. Power sharing is not a mechanics that allows players to skip game mechanics, it simply affects stats. A certain level of stats is expected for completion of a certain content. If a game must chop stats every now and then to function, it's a terrible design. And by this design, chopping needs to happen over and over again. We'll have mod 6, mod 12b, and I don't know, at this rate, the game might not even make it to the next chopping.
Why not encourage developers to look into other ways to improve this issue instead of being dead set on nerfing stats?
> Bonding has 30 duration seconds on preview while tooltip says is 15 seconds.
> In top of that it refreshes .( sorry i cant upload a video low upload)>
maybe they just haven't updated the preview server yet but in my opinion the nerf in stats is more than enough, leave the 30 seconds time and the refresh alone, dropping it to 15 seconds and having to wait till the 15 seconds are up for it to re proc is just stupid
They made the change but didn't get the tooltip in time.
Bondings needed a serious correction, but I think after all the feedback, they reverted it back to close to 100% uptime.
This all makes sense to me.. I agree with Oria1. I think that the Powershare should be buffed slightly and go through to the Player only and not through the companion and then back to the player again.
I like this because it makes the game more challenging and will make you work harder for stuff. How is a game where everything dies so easy even fun? To me the more I am challenged in a Dung or Fight the more fun it is.
Stop with all this junk where everything is just given to you. Work for it or quit. Simple solution!
I like your attitude. Powershare was originally designed to buff Players & Companions; however, if we only had R12 Eldritch this issue wouldn't have even come up. Eldritch also only boost Augmentation if the companion has a Defensive Rune slots, some have 3 Offensive slots, and even Augments at best have 2 defensive ones in most cases.
My Corellite! A 95% augment boost with a +840 (offense & defense boost) per stone up to 3 max. That's 11x better than 12% if you had R12 Eldritch (7.9x on just the augment boost alone) or more than 9x with the dual higher buff; not to mention player and companion attack benefitting from same Runes, Gear or Enchantments in part.
You can't have one Rune providing 11x the benefit while everything else is basically categorized as mostly worthless JUNK except being used as a short term solution or RP only. Now at least by improving the other Runes there's a little more flexibility or choice and some may even want to pair 2 Bonding with an Empowered or something else. Of course it may come down to your class/feats/companion/etc but there is a much more balanced set of options today going forward.
I don't think powershare need's to be buffed or changed any more than it corrected today by the reduced augment from Bonding. It would take a lot more redesign and rebalancing work and really slow future updates considerably for a year or more. I think what the proposal they came up with was a FAIR way to balance things moving forward.
I also HOPE many more start focusing on a lot more of the good in the update that's already either been already released or will be coming in the weeks ahead.
Well looking through all the comments in the three controversial threads Ive noticed something disturbing. That only a very small percentage have anything to do with what is fun! Its all about how my this stat is lower, or that one is too high, and YOU shouldn't have that much because I can have fun without. Yea! Lets all go down to the accountants office and compare numbers. Thats a party! /s
Thats discouraging right there. It leads to a sad conclusion as well. Sadly, this game has gotten boring. Admit it. Its turned into mindless repetition for goals that often as not get taken away by the devs around the time they start to be achievable by anyone but the top 1%.
We do get new areas, which is fun. We get them every several monthes which is great, and provides fun for maybe a week, and then it slowly slides into repetition again. This to be added to the pile of dailies, weeklies, AD farming to buy something for progress, campaign tasks, and helping your guild to grow.
How repetitive? I dont think we even realize it any more. Lets look at 1 tiny example, of 1 facet to do with guilds. Guild hall levels 13 and 14, takes 6500 heroic shards, 6500 adventurer shards, and 7200 dungeoneering shards. ( Just the guild hall without consideration of all the surrounding structures , campaign currencies, or influence.)
These come in sets of 10, so we're looking at 650 from a small set of SH quests, 720 assigned dungeons, and 650 sets of 3 quests in obsolete areas. Lets say it takes 2 minutes for a SH quest, 5 minutes for 3 quests in an old area, and 20 minutes for average quick runs of the given dungeons. (pretty fast average considering running time and all that) Thats 22 player hours in SH quests, 54 player hours in old areas, and 240 hours running assigned dungeons (which thankfully right not also rewards daily AD). Thats 316 hours of repetitive actions for 1 structure of many in a guild, 2 monthes if it were a full time job, which is only 1 part of our existence here.
Why would I stay given the above? Fair to ask. For me specifically it is primarily to be with the friends and guildies that I have met in the last few years. ..and that is a common refrain. We attempt to progress while we wait for a new area or thing of interest to come out. Like the mount system for example.. that was fun! New areas (outside of the timegates) are fun! Then we fall back to the old repetition again...to wait once more. So what are we left with?
Running things faster and better. Essentially the speed runs that are so railed against here, are fun for a lot of people. I run something, then my friend does it a little faster. I add a trick and do it better, soon we're flying through it. Getting better as we go. Doing Hati, or the Turtle in X minutes, or Orcus before the zombies becomes a goal to be achieved and improved upon for people who have put all they can or care to for the moment, into grind->ad->enchant->repeat.
We throw ourselves up on the gates again and again for one more try at that tiny chance of a jackpot. ..and we try and refine our technique for the next time, of which there will be many.
They need to stop putting so much time, work, planning, and controversy on this stuff that we have and have grown accustomed to. Put that work into things that are FUN.. like fashion, new mounts, new areas, new puzzles, player housing, customability, maybe new skills or revamping of old areas. That brings people back that have quit and keeps those of us around interested for even longer instead of changes that wont bring in anyone new and instead serve only to drive people away or make most who stay sad for a time.
Balancing powers and fixing things that aren't of a major concern to the players has become this games white whale. And the passengers on this Pequod are starting to realize that not only are we not getting the ride we signed on for, but the captain doesnt even care.
We as players ask for more difficult content, but instead we have dungeons that can be run easily in 20 minutes or less. I don't agree with expecting the developers to just make newer difficult content to solve this issue rather then balance what we already have. I hope i'm not alone in wanting to still be able to play older content with more balanced stats and buffs rather then to not attempt to balance and just keep increasing until we are able to CASUALLY complete the current t3 dungeons in like 5-10 minutes. I still would like old content to be playable and still a bit challenging (hopefully with balance), rather then just create another more difficult mod to be our one and only challenge with all older content being too easy.
The problem with this oft made point is that you are stating multiple problems as though they were 1.
Someone else running content in 20 minutes is a problem for you how? That they can get more shots on goal, in this game particularly, doesn't negatively affect me and mine. Im happy that there are people that can run through these dungeons quickly..partially because there isn't much 'game' to them. Once you learn the basic new mechanics (which is fun but not enough) there is running time and wearing down the battery of HP time, with no puzzle. I at least have confirmation that there are ways I can improve my character or my team to do things faster. Its at least something to aim for that isnt repetitive.
Making old content relevant vs new dungeons is 2 separate issues. We have new dungeons that have to deal with all the new powers and gear from everything before then. Meanwhile older areas languish with their designs to fight off powers that were obsolete years ago. Perhaps old areas need a revamping team to make tiered versions for newbies and veterans, or improve the power reduction for lower level dungeons.. different solutions could exist here.
Right now if you reduce everyones power to control these things it doesnt fix these problems. Ancient content wills till be squishsed senselessly. (elol for example) Newer stuff will be challenging, but still boring since those with high level gear have mostly graduated through those and done them hundreds of times. And newer content without adjustment will be aggravatingly hard.
Reducing our power doesnt make these things exciting. It just makes them longer for the same reward.
More significant changes need to occur to make old content exciting and new content still playable. None of which have been addressed or even acknowledged by the devs.
I want to make something clear as far as I'm concerned. I do agree and promote with almost every other option and not nerfing. Harder content, Tiered dungeons, more dungeons for all, diminishing returns even, anything that makes me feel I'm moving forward and not backward...
I'm after the fun and that's why after 2 years of running with the "TOP DPS" classes (cw in mod 0-6 gwf 7-10) I switched to the "back then unknown" debuffer MoF at mod 7 and templock now. Playing the paths that are harder for most people and trying to make them work was my fun.
But I'm also trying to stay focused to the topic of this thread. The devs wanted a change and a tone down to power creep. Who created that? sure not the players, but nevertheless it exists and the devs want it down. Since this is a given and at this point they will not do any of the above better solutions for x reasons, my goal was to suggest the least worst solution for us players. Trying to choose the lesser evil if you like.
If you check my posts on this thread I'm trying carefully to avoid calling class nerf, or our items nerfed, and presented with an idea that I think will lower the power creep which is the desired goal and NOT lose something we all worked and keep the class that are affected relevant. Accusations that I need a spot in runs are foolish to say the least, specially as an attempt to make it personal while avoiding the topic in hand. Saying a dc will need 133% power share more to stay competitive with DO etc has absolutely nothing to do with me or this thread and I will not sit and derail a serious conversation to boost their inflated egos. If anything it shows, disrespect to the community, insult to our intelligence, and no respect to themselves.
As others showed too with facts and screens the nerf to bonding solved nothing and that was the goal and the reason of my post. I think its better to reevaluate and see if we have a better solution for the power creep again given the situation we are now.
I always try to speak with facts and numbers and trying to invite the others into the idea to research and not be dogmatic. Can I be wrong? Sure and so is everyone. I stopped long time ago to care if I'm right or wrong. I wan the truth, the better solution and I don't really care who will come up with it. My data showed this... if anyone else disagrees please show yours but keep it relative to the subject.
One way or the other if we try we will all win something. Better game for us within this situation we are in and the devs will succeed on their goal they set to do. WIN - WIN situation.
You got a better idea that can realistically happen in the given time frame from beta to live, Please speak and present the idea. But something that can be done. As I said I want to the old dungeons back? Will that happen now? NO I want legendary dungeons, will that happen now? Lvl 80 and adjusted mobs/bosses? Cant happen. Lets keep it real and within the time frame that we have.. From beta... to live
except its not really our job to determine that extent they want to see buffing maxed or not, nor really to offer alternatives, there is ZERO need to bring it up or to offer it.. IT has little to do with the discussion.
its very simple to me.. we already paid for the power and they want to resell it to me. RESLLING the same power and the same enchants!!!!
thats mther effing insulting.
that is the single issue im taking on this.
If they want to lower cap or add more diminishing returns. then they can solve thier power creep WITHOUT nerfing and reselling me the same effing powers
they should also lower mob hps by like 50% after that sort of stuff though.
There is no real quick fix here.. none, it will take a rescope of the game..
but again.. THIS is little to do with this.. they say it is.. but to me, it doesnt, they simple want to make us pay money to them for the same thing they just sold us..
I hit the little agree button but that isn't strong enuff. this times one trillion
The thing is, you want both bondings and powershare, and now with the new enchants, that's gonna be stupidly overpowered. Because of the power share. While you're there being greedy, what oria1 is trying to suggest is a balance, a compromise so neither side loses (too) much. We'd lose power share, but keep our investment, they'd lose almost nothing and gain the balance and difficulty the new dungeons are supposed to have.
the bondings are bought and paid for. we've made out builds and stats around them. in and of themselves they do not provide hte same boosts that the buffs do in battle. so what I see happening is this
1. they nerf our bondings to oblivion. result the normal players struggle harder thanbefore in normal content and in dungeons. the elite players are unaffected. in dungeons the speed runs continue. the rest who had a hard time ecking out a hour long fbi run are now taking 2 hours and basically giving up on ever running dungeons and probably giving up the game. (those who weren't so insulted that they took away a bought item and then resold it to us that they quit in the first place) 2. the devs say well HAMSTER. we expected the power runs to stop. lets nerf the support classes now.
now everyone is absolutely hurting. we don't have the same base stats we have now and everything is much much harder than it was. not just mildly harder.. and we're never getting those bought and paid for bondings back. not for months and months and months until they're rebought and paid for. and now wow there is this precident that they can nerf something and then resell it to us. BRILLIANT..
When i see people saying "we cant increase the other ruins but we need to tone bonding" (which has SOME validity) but even with toning down bonding is better by a lot and then complain why don't you pick others...
It makes me think that we live in a house that we have have 5 Yogo cars and 1 BMW... and you ask why are we taking the BMW.
As long as those ruins aren't treated somehow equally without tricks like 50% on - 50% off on bonding don't expect much other outcome. and also make the augments proc companion based mount bonuses. IF you even even want to make them have some use.
And if you allow powershare through bonding... good luck !!
I agree with you on this for sure.
Personally, I wish devs would simply leave bonding alone, 95% from R12 to R14 but then only add the additional stats that they would be getting based on the new levels.
The proper thing to do would be fix the power share loop. We've seen what happens, we know the real issue behind "bonding is too OP" so why stick a band-aid on it?
If devs want other runestones used why not simply give them the same amount of stats as bonding (so 1040 at R14) and then the same effect too. AKA all runestones work as "bonding". Maybe make the effect work half as effective or something when on an augment then you should have similar numbers from an augment which would make an augment more viable too.
I dunno. Maybe it's just me, but I don't like the idea of the last several months of progress in terms of stats being removed from my characters. I think it would be better to address the real issue that is power share. We know it is sharing something like 4x the amount it should be, devs know this, it's been reported, its something that obviously isn't WAI.
I especially dislike it when the line is "Bonding nerf is being done to remove power creep" while you also give items (R13/R14 enchants) to push us back to the same level at an exorbitant cost. Not to mention the items to boost damage on bosses. This is only a minor setback for power creep not a fix.
Fix the underlying bug not just band-aid fix the item that enables it.
And for @tripsofthrymr and his "try to trust that the system designers will rebalance the game as appropriate." needs to GTFO. That's such HAMSTER. So we should just accept it and hope the devs get around to rebalancing the stuff oh, I dunno sometime in the future?
I have been refraining from commenting on this thread since I am currently not playing this game but seriously, this has got to the point now where I want to clarify some things. @oria1, your comments on this thread are nothing but an attempt to completely delete the AC paragon from existence. With the changes proposed, they are already worse than DO, For comparison, lets make a few assumptions:
1) A fully buffed BiS dps (before buffs from other classes) has somewhere between 60k and 80k power on their own. 2) We don't care about non BiS DpS for this comparison since they likely will not have high ranking bondings and thus won't benefit fully from DC buffs anyhow. 3) We ignoring the legendary bonus for now since when I last played it was somewhat buggy and not everyone has the same number of legendary pets. 4) We are ignoring Weapons of Light since DO also has it. 5) We will ignore the partial uptime of HG that an AC can achieve, this is partially balanced out by ignoring the DpS contribution a DpS DO could contribute.
For AC to compare to DO, we need the power buff from Blessing of Battle+AA to exceed the buff potential of Hallowed Ground+Terrifying Insight. This means you need a damage buff higher than 1.2*1.4 = 1.68.
BoB shares 15% power and AA shares 33% power. If the DpS is at the low end (60k) then the following is true:
Now, this is only assuming there is a single class sharing power. If there is an OP there, or any other power sharing class, a DC would have to share more, which would require an even higher base power. Now, I don't know about what is possible in mod 12, but in mod 11.5, it wasn't even possible for an AC DC to achieve 57628 base power and even if it is now, a DC with that much power would likely struggle to keep up AA and buff reliably with it.
So, now let us look at a different situation. Let us assume the DC is casting HG and only using BoB, that way they are reliably buffing all the time.
Either way, this clearly illustrates that Power Sharing is fine. AC in mod 12.5 is going to be a worse choice than a DO and if AC is worse than DO and you are going out of your way to nerf it, it is definitely not for class balance reasons.
Also, I ask that you stop saying power sharing is, "double dipping," on bondings. It isn't. I used this term once, correctly, to refer to the fact that SoD was scaling in a quadratic manner. This is not a quadratic function. Also, buffs don't scale exponentially, they scale multiplicatively.
As much as you're right here @thefabricant it's pretty obvious it wasn't intended for shared power to be given to both the character and their companion with the companion then tripling the power given to it when it gives that back to the player.
So why in that case are we not asking for the buff to either be a flat % buff or be allowed to scale from bonded power? Just because the power share is the thing making an AC DC good doesn't mean we shouldn't fix the obvious not WAI issue with power share being tripled when the companion gives it back and boost the AC DC to still be good. IMO this also means other sources of power share should be adjusted as well.
I mean do you also think it's wise that a pally can share his entire base power since the character gets it and then so does the companion who then triples that power when giving it to the owner? For anyone unaware this means that while an OP shares 25% of base power the party actually gets 100% of an OPs base power added to theirs provided they and their companion are within range and running R12 bonding + a legendary companion.
I tell you something, I've been playing for 4 months and played just about every single day. I've grinded my <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> off to get good enough to be proficient in the harder maps such as fbi/msva. It's taken me forever to get here and ive pumped probably $300+ into this game (i know i know but still not loose change). So, my bondings seems to proc a majority of the time anyways and my level is finally getting pretty high. But I'm still only a little over 12k. So I'm still a ways away. I'm just upgrading my perfects now. So by undercutting my boosts and reducing them you are damaging my player. You are setting me back further away from those 15k players that rule the queue invite roost. I've been playing all the maps up to never and they are pretty easy now. I just feel like these changes aren't going to help me just negatively effect me. You might say oh but this and that but honestly in laymans terms this does seem like a big kick in the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> from devs and i think unless you do something different you are going to lose a lot of players. If i get chopped down im going to quit simply because of the intense amount of gameplay ive had to put in where i am now and I'm still not good enough. You've had the carrot or in front of me for some time now, but seems like that carrot is going to be a lot further away.
Well looking through all the comments in the three controversial threads Ive noticed something disturbing. That only a very small percentage have anything to do with what is fun! Its all about how my this stat is lower, or that one is too high, and YOU shouldn't have that much because I can have fun without. Yea! Lets all go down to the accountants office and compare numbers. Thats a party! /s
Thats discouraging right there. It leads to a sad conclusion as well. Sadly, this game has gotten boring. Admit it. Its turned into mindless repetition for goals that often as not get taken away by the devs around the time they start to be achievable by anyone but the top 1%.
We do get new areas, which is fun. We get them every several monthes which is great, and provides fun for maybe a week, and then it slowly slides into repetition again. This to be added to the pile of dailies, weeklies, AD farming to buy something for progress, campaign tasks, and helping your guild to grow.
How repetitive? I dont think we even realize it any more. Lets look at 1 tiny example, of 1 facet to do with guilds. Guild hall levels 13 and 14, takes 6500 heroic shards, 6500 adventurer shards, and 7200 dungeoneering shards. ( Just the guild hall without consideration of all the surrounding structures , campaign currencies, or influence.)
These come in sets of 10, so we're looking at 650 from a small set of SH quests, 720 assigned dungeons, and 650 sets of 3 quests in obsolete areas. Lets say it takes 2 minutes for a SH quest, 5 minutes for 3 quests in an old area, and 20 minutes for average quick runs of the given dungeons. (pretty fast average considering running time and all that) Thats 22 player hours in SH quests, 54 player hours in old areas, and 240 hours running assigned dungeons (which thankfully right not also rewards daily AD). Thats 316 hours of repetitive actions for 1 structure of many in a guild, 2 monthes if it were a full time job, which is only 1 part of our existence here.
Why would I stay given the above? Fair to ask. For me specifically it is primarily to be with the friends and guildies that I have met in the last few years. ..and that is a common refrain. We attempt to progress while we wait for a new area or thing of interest to come out. Like the mount system for example.. that was fun! New areas (outside of the timegates) are fun! Then we fall back to the old repetition again...to wait once more. So what are we left with?
Running things faster and better. Essentially the speed runs that are so railed against here, are fun for a lot of people. I run something, then my friend does it a little faster. I add a trick and do it better, soon we're flying through it. Getting better as we go. Doing Hati, or the Turtle in X minutes, or Orcus before the zombies becomes a goal to be achieved and improved upon for people who have put all they can or care to for the moment, into grind->ad->enchant->repeat.
We throw ourselves up on the gates again and again for one more try at that tiny chance of a jackpot. ..and we try and refine our technique for the next time, of which there will be many.
They need to stop putting so much time, work, planning, and controversy on this stuff that we have and have grown accustomed to. Put that work into things that are FUN.. like fashion, new mounts, new areas, new puzzles, player housing, customability, maybe new skills or revamping of old areas. That brings people back that have quit and keeps those of us around interested for even longer instead of changes that wont bring in anyone new and instead serve only to drive people away or make most who stay sad for a time.
Balancing powers and fixing things that aren't of a major concern to the players has become this games white whale. And the passengers on this Pequod are starting to realize that not only are we not getting the ride we signed on for, but the captain doesnt even care.
tia and demo and the mods that went with them are the two last mods that I actually had fun with even thru the grind. other thanthat the game for me IS in the upgrading process. im not sure how much fun I"ll be having once the refinement process is simplified. figuring it out, doing the math. finding the stuff. grindingfor the stuff. that was my game. they're kind of killing that for me now.
The thing is, you want both bondings and powershare, and now with the new enchants, that's gonna be stupidly overpowered. Because of the power share. While you're there being greedy, what oria1 is trying to suggest is a balance, a compromise so neither side loses (too) much. We'd lose power share, but keep our investment, they'd lose almost nothing and gain the balance and difficulty the new dungeons are supposed to have.
They do not want balance, they want 5 minute FBI runs. I do not see how that can even be fun.
Wonder why people care so much about speed runs? Because there are three ways to become BiS in this game. 1. Play 100 years at a reasonable pace. 2. Spend a metric ton of money. 3. Run content 50 times a day just to eek out AD to progress you character. Clearly #3 is not the meta the developers want. They prefer #2, and if not #2, enjoy your 100 year journey to BiS.
4 ways. open lots of lockboxes and get lucky with a key.
The more I read the more suspicious I become. If I'm understanding the issue with power share it sounds more broken than the bondings but if the dev fix it rather than nerf bondings they're coding for essentially free while if they nerf bondings and then sell us back what they nerfed they slow down player progression and get paid for the nerf rather than fixing power share and having no way to pass that cost of coding the fix... I definitely won't be spending another dime on this game if that's how you do business
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louchristanMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 50Arc User
I was going to buy some Zen because of the bonus sale but now I am holding it back because of the bonding Nerf, I will wait and see if this game still worth playing.
You made endgame dungeons built around those bondings set up, you increase mobs stats, you changed debuffs, you increased RI, and now you ask us to deal with all that with less stats but yet please go ahead and complete T9G with your bulette.
No. No they really haven't.
T9G is completely doable with no-one over 13k or having summoned companions. Of course this makes it harder than it needs to be but don't go trying to spin some foolish line about Bondings being at all necessary for anything in the game.
They are a luxury, nothing more, just a tool to make already relatively simple content faster. With that luxury comes adjustments like this.
You want some facts?
Every day we are honestly making a mockery of the content the Devs. create, some may not see it that way but every time the new content they are proud of and have put so much effort into creating goes up it is only a matter of time before it is solo'd by every class.
Yeah, SOLO'D. A single person doing the entire content by themselves with at most moderate difficulty, doing the work of 5 or even 10 people.
Feel lucky that Boss fights don't have that ever so possible Message and Effect when you enter:
"Your Companions cannot help you here"
All those over-reliant on Bondings to carry them would be in some trouble then, hmm?
Meanwhile the rest of us, myself included would be here just shrugging and getting to work, knowing it isn't the Bondings that make the character.
Okay, wait a second. Are there any plans to update the harder content for the Bonding runstone changes?
Because some dungeons (ex: Epic Spellplague or T9G) were balanced around teams with 3x R11/R12 Bonding Runestones.
So, you guys are going to take out atleast 100% of companion stats, and then nerf the uptime, and then keep the harder dungeons balanced around stats that players don't have?
GG.
Whoever predicted that Mod12 would be a redux of the Mod6 disaster was just half a mod shy of being correct.
All endgame content has been run using groups equipped for minimal iLvL and using only Augments and we have had zero problems. Players have it entirely wrong, as it stands if you have R12 Bondings, or even Rank10+ for that matter, currently in Mod12 and are having and kind of problem; it's you. Plain and simple. You are either doing something wrong or you've come to rely on the Bondings as a crutch and what's sad at that point is you're still failing.
To be honest this is actually the penultimate "Get Good" moment.
HAMSTER. You're running TONG with minimum ilvl and augments? No problems huh? Prove it. You're so full of HAMSTER.
Sure. I'd be happy to. We set the minimal (not minimum, reading comprehension peoples) at 13k as around a slight buffer on the entry level is optimal. Augments Epic/Legendary Rank, R7s as Enchants.
But since you apparently lack any semblance of manners or self control and you haven't payed me nearly enough to earn the right to insult me, I'll be needing reasonable compensation for my time.
This is a very good idea. Levelling a companion is peanuts because we're inundated with XP tomes for them. The companion XP books are nearly worthless, and training runestones are genuinely only good for fodder.
Alternatively for a defensive stat, no rune carries lifesteal either.
Doh! You're right. Lifesteal then no doubt, not regeneration.
That will even give them the same stats as dark enchantments.
To those who support the nerf I understand, it may be needed but the injustice here is why sell us what we already had. I planned on dropping another $200 soon but not too get something I already had. That's just stupid. Then even with the nerf with bondings all in all, we'll get those lost stats back sooner or later and most likely sooner. The trouble isn't just bondings, it's the entire system. I refuse to waste my time and money just to get where I used to be. They make money by selling us on items that'll increase our power/other stats. All this will do will push us back enough for them to sell us new gear for a couple of mods just to get a lil bit further (that little bit may in fact be a lot) and then nerf it again. It's tried and true. Had I known being at the top of end game was this terrible of an investment I would've never invested a penny. I only did it because this was a game I loved and wanted to invest in but scratch that. This is over the top. The devs were warned about this such a long time ago. They knew about this so long ago. But they kept bondings the same just to get us comfortable and snake us. I can't believe I wasted money on this man... <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> it...
We as players ask for more difficult content, but instead we have dungeons that can be run easily in 20 minutes or less. I don't agree with expecting the developers to just make newer difficult content to solve this issue rather then balance what we already have. I hope i'm not alone in wanting to still be able to play older content with more balanced stats and buffs rather then to not attempt to balance and just keep increasing until we are able to CASUALLY complete the current t3 dungeons in like 5-10 minutes. I still would like old content to be playable and still a bit challenging (hopefully with balance), rather then just create another more difficult mod to be our one and only challenge with all older content being too easy.
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And here i am,,, running To9G for 5 hours. 2 hours was my best time... considering the fact parties switch a lot of members, people get out of time in real life and have to leave.
Wow , my enthusiasm just went down plenty.... not saying i still am not going to try.. but running it in less then 2 hours seems like a dream to me.
95 % of my guild did not even finish it once yet. And look how far into the mod we are. We are not BiS. We do not try to be, really. We strive to achieve an optimal builds, add rank 12 here or there and bondings since it was a sure bet they would help.
I mean hey we just had the " MAKE ALL YOUR COMPANIONS LEGENDARY " mod. I call it Mod12 AA2.
It was before : " Get your stable full of mounts , and get your insignias up to purple " mod AA1.5, right before the " Get your Runic bag of holding , cos the slot is finally there " mod AA1.0....
After some time, some of us achieved 14.5 + .. some did not. So the ones who did, help others run through the content. It has always been this way.
Bondings help. Like it or not. We all spent money and time getting them to where they are. They where something we where counting on. We counted on them since the DEVs said they are WAI. They where a safe bet. No one likes to have a rug pulled below them, after you made sure that rug is a must have. We did not decide that. We just used it as was said to be used.
I am not saying i am against having more options. Buffing Runestones and agument companions to be in the same rank as Bondings would be nice.
But not if that means losing what we already have.. it makes you tired. I can only speak for my guild, but we are tired of the constant struggle in order to do something we could do before without any problems.
I understand MSP and TONG and FBI are not meant for everyone. That is obvious . You need to have certain stats and IL to just get in. People inspect you before running. If you are not adequate , they will not take you. They inspect your companions as well. I get complains about it from guildies, all the time as an officer. I guess your game world is different then mine is. It is just how it goes.
Comments
Here is my dc with 37904 base power with rank 12 enchants :
The target with his base power:
The target with his bonding proc ( selfbuff note also the target has rank 12 everything on companion too):
The target with dc buff + bonding proc :
As you can see with my powershare the target goes to 146347 power and the shared power is
146347 - 75421 = 70926
I'll remind you again that this is with rank 12 on both me and the dps target in mod 12b
Here we see the shared power that I give to the DPS target without him having the companion summoned
So we know originally he had 52105 power and with the powershare the target went to 71364 which means
71364 - 52105 = 19259 power
From the data above we can conclude that the powershare to the companion is giving
70296 - 19259= 51037 stat points, as compared to the bondings giving 23316
and this is from one class only and with rank 12 enchants only. You can imagine with r14 and if we add DO and pally, where the stats will go.
With a slight adjust to powershare to give higher than now but acceptable percentages (buff) directly to the player but stop the loop between the powershare --->companion--->player its viable to let bondings as they are at 285% and at the same time reduce the power creep.
> sharp alrdy posted facts... u were ignoring them...
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> u really think the Powershare is breaking the game? Power is 1 factor for dps and its by far not the biggest. And nerfing Powershare makes it an issue for Classes that use that no point in denying. Do u think that players are way to OP for the newest dungeon? If you have a very good group u can run it pretty fast but nothing i would call worthy of beeing nerfed. I dont see the need for nerfs here. And i doubt the devs do... they are selling us back what the take away now thats a decision based on Money.
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> If you want the bonding nerf to be reverted then suggest that but leave the other stuff.
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> As i see it u are just on your djihad against DCs again. Maybe u are just proposing this so u dont have to make fake arguments for your mof anymore?
I'm not quite understanding why you have decided to come onto a bonding discussion to not only derail it by continuing this unrelated argument, but to debate using ad hominem attacks. Instead of intellectually tackling the merit of the argument you have attempted to dismiss it by specifically attacking oria1's character. Despite others agreeing with his opinion in the discussion, you have attempted to distract and sidetrack the discussion from the real issues, which are the changes to bondings and the transfer of buffed stats from a companion through bonding runestones.
If you are sure that oria1's opinion is wrong because of their character, then it should be easy for you to tear his argument apart without resorting to insults - right? It shouldn't matter who is saying it, whether it is oria1 or another individual, the strength of the argument should not hinge on the "who", but rather the "what."
I've read through the discussion and thefabricant's primary argument seems to be: Without power sharing to pets, the AC paragon is dead.
Which I disagree with, but as this is a BONDING discussion thread I am not going to derail it with my opinion on why I disagree .
Anyways, the original post stated that the primary concern for the change was that bondings had a massive power difference in comparison to the other runestones. The first attempt at a solution for this was to lower the given % and the uptime %. As so many in this discussion have stated, the imbalance does not necessarily only lie in the given %, it is the fact that bonding runestones are able to transfer buffed companion stats.
Second, the original post also stated that despite the changes players will continue to find the bonding runestones to be the best option. Ignoring the given % changes, the fact that powershare is possible through bonding runestones has and continues to give a major advantage to them over the other runestones. Even with the percentage reduced, players are still able to get great amounts of power as a result of powershare transferring to the character through bondings.
In the original post, the devs also stated that part of their reasoning behind the change is that runestones have been in an odd place for some time where there was only one that anyone cared about due to the massive power difference between Bonding Runestones and all other runestones. The concern that others in this discussion thread are trying to bring awareness to is the fact that powershare transferring through bondings is one of the main reasons for the massive power difference between bondings and other runestones. I am confident that the decision to use a non-augment companion with bondings over augments with runestones will continue to be the same not just due to bondings being slightly better power-wise, but because in a group setting they will gain the additional benefit of powershare through them that is not capable of occurring when using an augment. While it is nice to see an attempt at balance and to make other runestones more inclusive, I do think that the transfer of buffed stats through bondings will continue to allow them to remain supreme over other runestones.
I do not think that it is powershare that is "breaking the game." People are not asking for a class specific nerf, despite what some take it as. People are simply saying that powershare applying not only to your character, but also through bondings is not contributing to the desired balance. Rather, bondings continue to be better then runestones by a large margin in a party setting as a result of powershare transferring through bondings. I think powershare should be applied individually to the character and the companion, but should not be able to be transferred again through a bonding runestone.
We as players ask for more difficult content, but instead we have dungeons that can be run easily in 20 minutes or less. I don't agree with expecting the developers to just make newer difficult content to solve this issue rather then balance what we already have. I hope i'm not alone in wanting to still be able to play older content with more balanced stats and buffs rather then to not attempt to balance and just keep increasing until we are able to CASUALLY complete the current t3 dungeons in like 5-10 minutes. I still would like old content to be playable and still a bit challenging (hopefully with balance), rather then just create another more difficult mod to be our one and only challenge with all older content being too easy.
You see, THAT is the difficulty WE like. Not difficulty because our stats are inadequate and we're limited by gear. We want to be limited by our own skills, so we have to make best of what we have. Nerfing bondings just makes that "skill" requirement a "tolerance" requirement. How much bulls... can you tolerate before you just give up because there's better stuff to do in the game? I DON'T want that to happen. That is just not good for the community, devs OR customers. Remember that your customers are the ones affected the most by this change, and you usually don't want to bite the hand that's feeding you.
All I want is the best for all of us, @nitocris83 @noworries#8859 - and the way Mod 12 has been going, it's been great, but this? This is just not good. If I can, I'd like to get into contact with you outside this forum post - a PM maybe or something. Just so I know all the reasons behind this, apologies, but frankly stupid decision. I've got nothing but utmost respect for people who are doing the job I'm afraid to attempt on my own, but there are things outside programming skills and stuff that you need for this. I wish I could help all of you somehow, but it's hard to agree with such decisions. Impossible, really.
Mod 12 was a blast, it was fun, challenging, not too grindy (especially compared to Mod 10 and to lesser extent 11), but Mod 12b seems like it's a flop. That's something that none of us want. A mod being bad makes people quit, and people quitting means less runs - what in turn makes the economy worse, the maps feel deserted and it just doesn't keep the simple joy of randomly thwacking things with people you've never seen and probably never will see again, and then doing content you love with your friends, joining them in a nice talk while you discuss strategies, builds and such. A lot of people I know are NOT satisfied with this, and heck, I can make a Gaussian function graph for you where I could mathematically prove that there are more people dissatisfied with this than the opposite. I'll do everything required for you to reconsider the changes. I just don't want the game to die. That's all.
Making us re-buy already bought power has already turned people off. Making it so expensive is even worse. Making the end result not change HAMSTER is just insulting.
> Here are the results from preview server to see what will happen after the proposed changes on bondings runestones and the interaction with power share.
> Here is my dc with 37904 base power with rank 12 enchants :
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> The target with his base power:
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> The target with his bonding proc ( selfbuff note also the target has rank 12 everything on companion too):
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> The target with dc buff + bonding proc :
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> As you can see with my powershare the target goes to 146347 power and the shared power is
> 146347 - 75421 = 70926
>
> I'll remind you again that this is with rank 12 on both me and the dps target in mod 12b
>
> Here we see the shared power that I give to the DPS target without him having the companion summoned
>
>
> So we know originally he had 52105 power and with the powershare the target went to 71364 which means
> 71364 - 52105 = 19259 power
>
> From the data above we can conclude that the powershare to the companion is giving
> 70296 - 19259= 51037 stat points, as compared to the bondings giving 23316
> and this is from one class only and with rank 12 enchants only. You can imagine with r14 and if we add DO and pally, where the stats will go.
>
> With a slight adjust to powershare to give higher than now but acceptable percentages (buff) directly to the player but stop the loop between the powershare --->companion--->player its viable to let bondings as they are at 285% and at the same time reduce the power creep.
amen to that
Thats just demoralizing right there. The game itself has gotten boring! Admit it. What is it thats a game. Its just repetition. We don't get new content that often, just run the same content literally thousands of times. ...and now between time we get nerfed so they can make us pay for what we already have instead of releasing something like new fashion or player housing that people would throw cash at them for.
'Why do I stay?' you might ask from the above. For me it is MAINLY for my friends and guildies. The rest is boring. Sometimes progressions of something like a guild hall is fun to see, but its not a game, its responsibility that hanging out with my friends makes worthwhile while we wait for the new area that comes every several monthes. (Which they quickly take the joy out of with self afflicted wounds like these changes.)
Lets look at Guild hall level 13 and 14 as a SMALL example of the repetition that I speak of. they take 6500 adventurer shards, 6500 heroic shards and 7500 dungeoneer shards gained 10 at a time (ignoring for the moment the tyranny, dread, influence, etc thats also required).
Thats 650 quests in obsolete areas, 650 of a small selection of SH quests, and 750 dungeon runs. Lets say it takes 2 minutes to do a SH quest, and 10 minutes to do the 3 required in an area (thats pretty quick considering running time), and 20 mins for s speed run of your average requested dungeon. Thats 22 player hours for heroics, 108 player hours for adventurer, 250 player hours for dungeoneering For 2 levels of a guildhall. (OR a massload of heroic chests.) We have the same setup for campaigns, many of which take 1-2 monthes to complete through artificial time gates.
We do get new areas.. which is fun! ..for a few days, maybe a week. And thats understandable because content is hard and expensive to produce (other than the foundry which they have let languish). Problem being that many of us have been playing for years, so that week of fun every 3 monthes can start to wear on you if you don't find something else to enjoy.
So with that repetition what do we have left.. speed runs which are railed against here. What are we supposed to be pondering the beauty of our at wills as we poke orcus to death for literally the 500th time? No we run it. We throw ourselves up on the gates again and again hoping for some tiny reward. And....
Then we run it a little faster. Then a friend runs it a little faster. Then I find a detail that makes it a bit better for me, I add a trick and someone else notices. We run it dozens to hundreds of times refining our technique as we wait for that tiny chance at a jackpot. Doing Hati, the Turtle, or Orcus in x minutes or 'before the zombies' becomes a goal to achieve. Its getting better at the game that we have before us. ..because what else do we have?!
Cut the HAMSTER on all this power balancing for things that we're used to, really arent broken, and much of the game has grown around. Devote time to the stuff that actually is fun. When we have new areas, new puzzles, new fashion, new housing, new customability its fun for all of us. Nerfing for the sake of balance that will never be achieved is this games white whale, and we the passengers on this Pequod are starting to realize that not only are we not getting the ride we signed on for, but the captain doesn't even care.
Nerfing power we already have and reselling it to us, is just a line that most mmos wouldnt cross, that they crossed it here, is a bit disturbing.
Is spent $400 on this game last Xmas and was planning the same this Xmas. Last time I bought 3 companions, an epic mount and ranked up my bondings to rank 12.. This Xmas I was going to buy a legendary mount and buy smops to rank up my enchants (closer) to rank 12. That will not be happening if this bonding change goes through.
> Here are the results from preview server to see what will happen after the proposed changes on bondings runestones and the interaction with power share.
> Here is my dc with 37904 base power with rank 12 enchants :
>
> With a slight adjust to powershare to give higher than now but acceptable percentages (buff) directly to the player but stop the loop between the powershare --->companion--->player its viable to let bondings as they are at 285% and at the same time reduce the power creep.
How is this different from the situation we have right now? This solves none of the fundamental problems of power creep.
Power sharing is not a mechanics that allows players to skip game mechanics, it simply affects stats. A certain level of stats is expected for completion of a certain content. If a game must chop stats every now and then to function, it's a terrible design. And by this design, chopping needs to happen over and over again. We'll have mod 6, mod 12b, and I don't know, at this rate, the game might not even make it to the next chopping.
Why not encourage developers to look into other ways to improve this issue instead of being dead set on nerfing stats?
Bondings needed a serious correction, but I think after all the feedback, they reverted it back to close to 100% uptime. I like your attitude. Powershare was originally designed to buff Players & Companions; however, if we only had R12 Eldritch this issue wouldn't have even come up. Eldritch also only boost Augmentation if the companion has a Defensive Rune slots, some have 3 Offensive slots, and even Augments at best have 2 defensive ones in most cases.
My Corellite! A 95% augment boost with a +840 (offense & defense boost) per stone up to 3 max. That's 11x better than 12% if you had R12 Eldritch (7.9x on just the augment boost alone) or more than 9x with the dual higher buff; not to mention player and companion attack benefitting from same Runes, Gear or Enchantments in part.
You can't have one Rune providing 11x the benefit while everything else is basically categorized as mostly worthless JUNK except being used as a short term solution or RP only. Now at least by improving the other Runes there's a little more flexibility or choice and some may even want to pair 2 Bonding with an Empowered or something else. Of course it may come down to your class/feats/companion/etc but there is a much more balanced set of options today going forward.
I don't think powershare need's to be buffed or changed any more than it corrected today by the reduced augment from Bonding. It would take a lot more redesign and rebalancing work and really slow future updates considerably for a year or more. I think what the proposal they came up with was a FAIR way to balance things moving forward.
I also HOPE many more start focusing on a lot more of the good in the update that's already either been already released or will be coming in the weeks ahead.
Thats discouraging right there. It leads to a sad conclusion as well. Sadly, this game has gotten boring. Admit it. Its turned into mindless repetition for goals that often as not get taken away by the devs around the time they start to be achievable by anyone but the top 1%.
We do get new areas, which is fun. We get them every several monthes which is great, and provides fun for maybe a week, and then it slowly slides into repetition again. This to be added to the pile of dailies, weeklies, AD farming to buy something for progress, campaign tasks, and helping your guild to grow.
How repetitive? I dont think we even realize it any more. Lets look at 1 tiny example, of 1 facet to do with guilds. Guild hall levels 13 and 14, takes 6500 heroic shards, 6500 adventurer shards, and 7200 dungeoneering shards. ( Just the guild hall without consideration of all the surrounding structures , campaign currencies, or influence.)
These come in sets of 10, so we're looking at 650 from a small set of SH quests, 720 assigned dungeons, and 650 sets of 3 quests in obsolete areas. Lets say it takes 2 minutes for a SH quest, 5 minutes for 3 quests in an old area, and 20 minutes for average quick runs of the given dungeons. (pretty fast average considering running time and all that) Thats 22 player hours in SH quests, 54 player hours in old areas, and 240 hours running assigned dungeons (which thankfully right not also rewards daily AD). Thats 316 hours of repetitive actions for 1 structure of many in a guild, 2 monthes if it were a full time job, which is only 1 part of our existence here.
Why would I stay given the above? Fair to ask. For me specifically it is primarily to be with the friends and guildies that I have met in the last few years. ..and that is a common refrain. We attempt to progress while we wait for a new area or thing of interest to come out. Like the mount system for example.. that was fun! New areas (outside of the timegates) are fun! Then we fall back to the old repetition again...to wait once more. So what are we left with?
Running things faster and better. Essentially the speed runs that are so railed against here, are fun for a lot of people. I run something, then my friend does it a little faster. I add a trick and do it better, soon we're flying through it. Getting better as we go. Doing Hati, or the Turtle in X minutes, or Orcus before the zombies becomes a goal to be achieved and improved upon for people who have put all they can or care to for the moment, into grind->ad->enchant->repeat.
We throw ourselves up on the gates again and again for one more try at that tiny chance of a jackpot. ..and we try and refine our technique for the next time, of which there will be many.
They need to stop putting so much time, work, planning, and controversy on this stuff that we have and have grown accustomed to. Put that work into things that are FUN.. like fashion, new mounts, new areas, new puzzles, player housing, customability, maybe new skills or revamping of old areas. That brings people back that have quit and keeps those of us around interested for even longer instead of changes that wont bring in anyone new and instead serve only to drive people away or make most who stay sad for a time.
Balancing powers and fixing things that aren't of a major concern to the players has become this games white whale. And the passengers on this Pequod are starting to realize that not only are we not getting the ride we signed on for, but the captain doesnt even care.
We as players ask for more difficult content, but instead we have dungeons that can be run easily in 20 minutes or less. I don't agree with expecting the developers to just make newer difficult content to solve this issue rather then balance what we already have. I hope i'm not alone in wanting to still be able to play older content with more balanced stats and buffs rather then to not attempt to balance and just keep increasing until we are able to CASUALLY complete the current t3 dungeons in like 5-10 minutes. I still would like old content to be playable and still a bit challenging (hopefully with balance), rather then just create another more difficult mod to be our one and only challenge with all older content being too easy.The problem with this oft made point is that you are stating multiple problems as though they were 1.
Someone else running content in 20 minutes is a problem for you how? That they can get more shots on goal, in this game particularly, doesn't negatively affect me and mine. Im happy that there are people that can run through these dungeons quickly..partially because there isn't much 'game' to them. Once you learn the basic new mechanics (which is fun but not enough) there is running time and wearing down the battery of HP time, with no puzzle. I at least have confirmation that there are ways I can improve my character or my team to do things faster. Its at least something to aim for that isnt repetitive.
Making old content relevant vs new dungeons is 2 separate issues. We have new dungeons that have to deal with all the new powers and gear from everything before then. Meanwhile older areas languish with their designs to fight off powers that were obsolete years ago. Perhaps old areas need a revamping team to make tiered versions for newbies and veterans, or improve the power reduction for lower level dungeons.. different solutions could exist here.
Right now if you reduce everyones power to control these things it doesnt fix these problems. Ancient content wills till be squishsed senselessly. (elol for example) Newer stuff will be challenging, but still boring since those with high level gear have mostly graduated through those and done them hundreds of times. And newer content without adjustment will be aggravatingly hard.
Reducing our power doesnt make these things exciting. It just makes them longer for the same reward.
More significant changes need to occur to make old content exciting and new content still playable. None of which have been addressed or even acknowledged by the devs.
I'm after the fun and that's why after 2 years of running with the "TOP DPS" classes (cw in mod 0-6 gwf 7-10) I switched to the "back then unknown" debuffer MoF at mod 7 and templock now. Playing the paths that are harder for most people and trying to make them work was my fun.
But I'm also trying to stay focused to the topic of this thread. The devs wanted a change and a tone down to power creep. Who created that? sure not the players, but nevertheless it exists and the devs want it down. Since this is a given and at this point they will not do any of the above better solutions for x reasons, my goal was to suggest the least worst solution for us players. Trying to choose the lesser evil if you like.
If you check my posts on this thread I'm trying carefully to avoid calling class nerf, or our items nerfed, and presented with an idea that I think will lower the power creep which is the desired goal and NOT lose something we all worked and keep the class that are affected relevant. Accusations that I need a spot in runs are foolish to say the least, specially as an attempt to make it personal while avoiding the topic in hand. Saying a dc will need 133% power share more to stay competitive with DO etc has absolutely nothing to do with me or this thread and I will not sit and derail a serious conversation to boost their inflated egos. If anything it shows, disrespect to the community, insult to our intelligence, and no respect to themselves.
As others showed too with facts and screens the nerf to bonding solved nothing and that was the goal and the reason of my post. I think its better to reevaluate and see if we have a better solution for the power creep again given the situation we are now.
I always try to speak with facts and numbers and trying to invite the others into the idea to research and not be dogmatic. Can I be wrong? Sure and so is everyone. I stopped long time ago to care if I'm right or wrong. I wan the truth, the better solution and I don't really care who will come up with it. My data showed this... if anyone else disagrees please show yours but keep it relative to the subject.
One way or the other if we try we will all win something. Better game for us within this situation we are in and the devs will succeed on their goal they set to do. WIN - WIN situation.
You got a better idea that can realistically happen in the given time frame from beta to live, Please speak and present the idea.
But something that can be done. As I said I want to the old dungeons back? Will that happen now? NO I want legendary dungeons, will that happen now? Lvl 80 and adjusted mobs/bosses? Cant happen. Lets keep it real and within the time frame that we have.. From beta... to live
1. they nerf our bondings to oblivion. result the normal players struggle harder thanbefore in normal content and in dungeons. the elite players are unaffected. in dungeons the speed runs continue. the rest who had a hard time ecking out a hour long fbi run are now taking 2 hours and basically giving up on ever running dungeons and probably giving up the game. (those who weren't so insulted that they took away a bought item and then resold it to us that they quit in the first place)
2. the devs say well HAMSTER. we expected the power runs to stop. lets nerf the support classes now.
now everyone is absolutely hurting. we don't have the same base stats we have now and everything is much much harder than it was. not just mildly harder.. and we're never getting those bought and paid for bondings back. not for months and months and months until they're rebought and paid for. and now wow there is this precident that they can nerf something and then resell it to us. BRILLIANT..
Personally, I wish devs would simply leave bonding alone, 95% from R12 to R14 but then only add the additional stats that they would be getting based on the new levels.
The proper thing to do would be fix the power share loop. We've seen what happens, we know the real issue behind "bonding is too OP" so why stick a band-aid on it?
If devs want other runestones used why not simply give them the same amount of stats as bonding (so 1040 at R14) and then the same effect too. AKA all runestones work as "bonding". Maybe make the effect work half as effective or something when on an augment then you should have similar numbers from an augment which would make an augment more viable too.
I dunno. Maybe it's just me, but I don't like the idea of the last several months of progress in terms of stats being removed from my characters. I think it would be better to address the real issue that is power share. We know it is sharing something like 4x the amount it should be, devs know this, it's been reported, its something that obviously isn't WAI.
I especially dislike it when the line is "Bonding nerf is being done to remove power creep" while you also give items (R13/R14 enchants) to push us back to the same level at an exorbitant cost. Not to mention the items to boost damage on bosses. This is only a minor setback for power creep not a fix.
Fix the underlying bug not just band-aid fix the item that enables it.
And for @tripsofthrymr and his "try to trust that the system designers will rebalance the game as appropriate." needs to GTFO. That's such HAMSTER. So we should just accept it and hope the devs get around to rebalancing the stuff oh, I dunno sometime in the future? As much as you're right here @thefabricant it's pretty obvious it wasn't intended for shared power to be given to both the character and their companion with the companion then tripling the power given to it when it gives that back to the player.
So why in that case are we not asking for the buff to either be a flat % buff or be allowed to scale from bonded power? Just because the power share is the thing making an AC DC good doesn't mean we shouldn't fix the obvious not WAI issue with power share being tripled when the companion gives it back and boost the AC DC to still be good. IMO this also means other sources of power share should be adjusted as well.
I mean do you also think it's wise that a pally can share his entire base power since the character gets it and then so does the companion who then triples that power when giving it to the owner? For anyone unaware this means that while an OP shares 25% of base power the party actually gets 100% of an OPs base power added to theirs provided they and their companion are within range and running R12 bonding + a legendary companion.
7:20 pretty much sums up the sentiments of the majority of the long time players across all platforms.
T9G is completely doable with no-one over 13k or having summoned companions. Of course this makes it harder than it needs to be but don't go trying to spin some foolish line about Bondings being at all necessary for anything in the game.
They are a luxury, nothing more, just a tool to make already relatively simple content faster. With that luxury comes adjustments like this.
You want some facts?
Every day we are honestly making a mockery of the content the Devs. create, some may not see it that way but every time the new content they are proud of and have put so much effort into creating goes up it is only a matter of time before it is solo'd by every class.
Yeah, SOLO'D. A single person doing the entire content by themselves with at most moderate difficulty, doing the work of 5 or even 10 people.
Feel lucky that Boss fights don't have that ever so possible Message and Effect when you enter:
"Your Companions cannot help you here"
All those over-reliant on Bondings to carry them would be in some trouble then, hmm?
Meanwhile the rest of us, myself included would be here just shrugging and getting to work, knowing it isn't the Bondings that make the character.
But since you apparently lack any semblance of manners or self control and you haven't payed me nearly enough to earn the right to insult me, I'll be needing reasonable compensation for my time.
Be waiting on that, cupcake.
And here i am,,, running To9G for 5 hours.
2 hours was my best time... considering the fact parties switch a lot of members, people get out of time in real life and have to leave.
Wow , my enthusiasm just went down plenty.... not saying i still am not going to try.. but running it in less then 2 hours seems like a dream to me.
95 % of my guild did not even finish it once yet. And look how far into the mod we are.
We are not BiS. We do not try to be, really.
We strive to achieve an optimal builds, add rank 12 here or there and bondings since it was a sure bet they would help.
I mean hey we just had the " MAKE ALL YOUR COMPANIONS LEGENDARY " mod. I call it Mod12 AA2.
It was before : " Get your stable full of mounts , and get your insignias up to purple " mod AA1.5, right before the " Get your Runic bag of holding , cos the slot is finally there " mod AA1.0....
After some time, some of us achieved 14.5 + .. some did not.
So the ones who did, help others run through the content. It has always been this way.
Bondings help. Like it or not.
We all spent money and time getting them to where they are.
They where something we where counting on.
We counted on them since the DEVs said they are WAI. They where a safe bet.
No one likes to have a rug pulled below them, after you made sure that rug is a must have.
We did not decide that. We just used it as was said to be used.
I am not saying i am against having more options.
Buffing Runestones and agument companions to be in the same rank as Bondings would be nice.
But not if that means losing what we already have.. it makes you tired.
I can only speak for my guild, but we are tired of the constant struggle in order to do something we could do before without any problems.
I understand MSP and TONG and FBI are not meant for everyone. That is obvious .
You need to have certain stats and IL to just get in. People inspect you before running.
If you are not adequate , they will not take you.
They inspect your companions as well. I get complains about it from guildies, all the time as an officer.
I guess your game world is different then mine is. It is just how it goes.