Mod 12 has not yet hit console, most of the major nerfs have not hit console at all yet, and TBH not all of them may, given what @trzebiat#2067 and I talked about.
I have asked that trzebiat give me a hand in some of the higher item levels of the Burnadin, as the new guide that is coming will be more modular in nature, rather than linear kind of scaling. I am working on it, and will have something posted by Friday 11th at the latest, I know that's a long time, but as I already statted, it takes a LONG time to rework 20+ pages of material around a number of nerfs, as well as changes I have been wanting to make. I'm forced to retest a number of old things, and a number of new things. I figure between the two of us, we can get rid of most of the bugs and non-optimal choices in the guide at all levels. In game I'm actually not above 12k IL, so the best I can do is theorize how things work up there, with trzebiat who has a toon with optimized gear at that level it should be a lot easier to get realistic numbers and options for endgame Burnadins.
I once again ask for your patience, and thank you for the patience and support that everyone has already shown. I don't believe we are dead, but I do stand by my original statement that with mod 12 our viability is significantly dropped. I sincerely hope it doesn't hit console the same way it hit PC. I really really hope it doesn't.
I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
Just to be clear as there was some confusion (not necessarily in this thread), the new guide is not out there yet. I simply updated the first 2-3 pages with detailed info about nerfs / rumors about nerfs, and my observation and proofs about them on PC. Trust me when I say you will know when the new guide is there, it looks quite a bit different.
I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
To be honest, I'm confused at the moment what's going on with Dev OP in mod 12. Being on console doesn't help with all the testing like it can be done on PC with ACT, so in that matter I'm limited to my own observations and interpretting data provided by others.
As to the Dev OP class itself, even if we ignore all the potential nerfs, it fails to keep up with gearing up and increasing IL because it relies too much on flat damage (which is also additionally punished by 75% effectiveness vs targets 3 lvl above yours). And there's no work around because Dev OP is forced into always using Bond and Vow (while Prot can get away without even using TW). While it's fun and really viable at lower IL (I enjoyed it myself), at late end game there are only few places where Dev has upper hand over Prot, mainly in content with lots of people or when there's constant damage over time to heal through. To partially compensate the loss of amount of procs of flat damage sources due to time required to kill things getting shorter Dev OP has to start relying on other sources that have better scaling, but it's really hard when you have only one encounter and Divine Judgement for that. Also the content doesn't help either, when BL is the best AoE encounter, the target cap, time required to charge and can be interrupted makes it harder to use in FBI for example. RA which is amazing for damage and AP gain allowing more daily spamming on the other hand has knock back effect which is very unwanted in most situations (why it can't be prone?).
It's sad truth but for late end game Prot offers much better buffs while also can dish out more damage. Power share alone (which is about 20-25k Power higher) makes Prot much better than Dev for any content where there's no need for constant healing and Life Steal is enough. Then we have Circle of Power that not only increases OP's damage, but also gives everyone 25% DR (the best Paladin power in my opinion), and also more Power means better Shepherd's buff to Defense/Deflect/Movement than on Dev. I'd say the loss of damage output on Dev wouldn't be a problem if Dev would have any direct percentage damage buffs for the whole party, at least on par with DO DC's TI, but even then it wouldn't be much. The 5% stats increase from the mechanic is laughable.
I agree, that sucks big. And I think the best what any OP can do is to learn how to play both Dev and Prot, because with loadouts this is the biggest advantage OP has over other classes. You can't simply play only Dev OP forever, even when there's GF in party, in most cases switching to Prot is better for the team. Same goes for Prot, sometimes switching to Dev will be better, even if there's no other tank, as holding aggro on Dev isn't really hard.
As you say, it could be a case of running prot for solo and devo for group. I do something similar already on my DC - I run a pure DPS DO build for soloing and switch loadout to an AC buffer for group runs. Sure, the DO build would do a lot more personal damage in group content but if I'm being team friendly (and the only DC) then it's optimal for the group if I run AC support.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
To be honest, I'm confused at the moment what's going on with Dev OP in mod 12. Being on console doesn't help with all the testing like it can be done on PC with ACT, so in that matter I'm limited to my own observations and interpretting data provided by others.
As to the Dev OP class itself, even if we ignore all the potential nerfs, it fails to keep up with gearing up and increasing IL because it relies too much on flat damage (which is also additionally punished by 75% effectiveness vs targets 3 lvl above yours). And there's no work around because Dev OP is forced into always using Bond and Vow (while Prot can get away without even using TW). While it's fun and really viable at lower IL (I enjoyed it myself), at late end game there are only few places where Dev has upper hand over Prot, mainly in content with lots of people or when there's constant damage over time to heal through. To partially compensate the loss of amount of procs of flat damage sources due to time required to kill things getting shorter Dev OP has to start relying on other sources that have better scaling, but it's really hard when you have only one encounter and Divine Judgement for that. Also the content doesn't help either, when BL is the best AoE encounter, the target cap, time required to charge and can be interrupted makes it harder to use in FBI for example. RA which is amazing for damage and AP gain allowing more daily spamming on the other hand has knock back effect which is very unwanted in most situations (why it can't be prone?).
It's sad truth but for late end game Prot offers much better buffs while also can dish out more damage. Power share alone (which is about 20-25k Power higher) makes Prot much better than Dev for any content where there's no need for constant healing and Life Steal is enough. Then we have Circle of Power that not only increases OP's damage, but also gives everyone 25% DR (the best Paladin power in my opinion), and also more Power means better Shepherd's buff to Defense/Deflect/Movement than on Dev. I'd say the loss of damage output on Dev wouldn't be a problem if Dev would have any direct percentage damage buffs for the whole party, at least on par with DO DC's TI, but even then it wouldn't be much. The 5% stats increase from the mechanic is laughable.
I agree, that sucks big. And I think the best what any OP can do is to learn how to play both Dev and Prot, because with loadouts this is the biggest advantage OP has over other classes. You can't simply play only Dev OP forever, even when there's GF in party, in most cases switching to Prot is better for the team. Same goes for Prot, sometimes switching to Dev will be better, even if there's no other tank, as holding aggro on Dev isn't really hard.
.. yeah.. I just went Prot for the first time, and I'm not looking back! I cant believe how much better prot is for buffs. its just.... WOW WHAT?
Why cant the power buff be the same except as apposed to taking damage, healing? Why do so many encounter have to be throwing out heals as well? Smite for protection is amazing.. They really need to remove the healing from encounters and add buff/debuffs. With vow, bond, oath strike, and divine call, what else do you need to heal?? If its not enough, then cure wounds instead of radiant. I personally would like to remove vow, use cure wounds, and go with a damage encounter that also buff/debuff.
I personally would like to remove vow, use cure wounds, and go with a damage encounter that also buff/debuff.
No, No, No! Leave Vow alone! The synergy between Bond and Vow when it comes to doing our core role is perfect. It gives you the damage buff and puts the healing on automatic. If we went the route you describe we might as well just sit in a corner and spam heal the tank and feed the rest of the heals through bond that way. Not to mention that it does no damage, doesn't buff/or debuff anything nor increase the proc rate for burning boons like vow and bond does. Cure has its place in the rotation and within certain conditions but it should NOT be a substitute for Vow. Now if you want to maybe look at removing the healing bonuses from say Aura of Restoration (a rubbish aura as it stands) or changing the mechanics for Aura of Solitude, or giving healing font both a heal, a DR buff, or maybe removal of control effects or something like that...got my vote. Vow though...needs to stay as it is.
To be honest, I'm confused at the moment what's going on with Dev OP in mod 12. Being on console doesn't help with all the testing like it can be done on PC with ACT, so in that matter I'm limited to my own observations and interpretting data provided by others.
As to the Dev OP class itself, even if we ignore all the potential nerfs, it fails to keep up with gearing up and increasing IL because it relies too much on flat damage (which is also additionally punished by 75% effectiveness vs targets 3 lvl above yours). And there's no work around because Dev OP is forced into always using Bond and Vow (while Prot can get away without even using TW). While it's fun and really viable at lower IL (I enjoyed it myself), at late end game there are only few places where Dev has upper hand over Prot, mainly in content with lots of people or when there's constant damage over time to heal through. To partially compensate the loss of amount of procs of flat damage sources due to time required to kill things getting shorter Dev OP has to start relying on other sources that have better scaling, but it's really hard when you have only one encounter and Divine Judgement for that. Also the content doesn't help either, when BL is the best AoE encounter, the target cap, time required to charge and can be interrupted makes it harder to use in FBI for example. RA which is amazing for damage and AP gain allowing more daily spamming on the other hand has knock back effect which is very unwanted in most situations (why it can't be prone?).
It's sad truth but for late end game Prot offers much better buffs while also can dish out more damage. Power share alone (which is about 20-25k Power higher) makes Prot much better than Dev for any content where there's no need for constant healing and Life Steal is enough. Then we have Circle of Power that not only increases OP's damage, but also gives everyone 25% DR (the best Paladin power in my opinion), and also more Power means better Shepherd's buff to Defense/Deflect/Movement than on Dev. I'd say the loss of damage output on Dev wouldn't be a problem if Dev would have any direct percentage damage buffs for the whole party, at least on par with DO DC's TI, but even then it wouldn't be much. The 5% stats increase from the mechanic is laughable.
I agree, that sucks big. And I think the best what any OP can do is to learn how to play both Dev and Prot, because with loadouts this is the biggest advantage OP has over other classes. You can't simply play only Dev OP forever, even when there's GF in party, in most cases switching to Prot is better for the team. Same goes for Prot, sometimes switching to Dev will be better, even if there's no other tank, as holding aggro on Dev isn't really hard.
This is exactly what I was afraid of and was criticized for asking about it.
> @majorcharvenak said: > I personally would like to remove vow, use cure wounds, and go with a damage encounter that also buff/debuff. > > No, No, No! Leave Vow alone! The synergy between Bond and Vow when it comes to doing our core role is perfect. It gives you the damage buff and puts the healing on automatic. If we went the route you describe we might as well just sit in a corner and spam heal the tank and feed the rest of the heals through bond that way. Not to mention that it does no damage, doesn't buff/or debuff anything nor increase the proc rate for burning boons like vow and bond does. Cure has its place in the rotation and within certain conditions but it should NOT be a substitute for Vow. Now if you want to maybe look at removing the healing bonuses from say Aura of Restoration (a rubbish aura as it stands) or changing the mechanics for Aura of Solitude, or giving healing font both a heal, a DR buff, or maybe removal of control effects or something like that...got my vote. Vow though...needs to stay as it is.
sorry.. didnt mean it that way. I ment to take it out of my personal rotation, not from the game.
Our core role is pointless, thats why our spot in end game content is better filled by a DC that does a little healing, and some Life steal rating. Run 2 DC and a healadin is totally worthless. I love the idea of a fighting healer, but a mega healer is just not needed. And you cant have a great DPS with great buffs, as it would be op OP . Cant be a class thats great at all 3 things.. gotta give up on something. The one thing I think does need to be removed is Life Steal. And add much more health for all classes.
I've been thinking about this recently... Is there ANY non-Boon advantage to a Devotion Paladin? I may be missing something, but I think the answer is no.
Protection Paladins were given Temp HP and extra agro to assist tanking. Devotion Paladins were given extra healing mechanisms, but nothing else. It appears that (without Boons) a Devotion Paladin is both a tank that can't hold agro and a healer that can't buff/debuff (any better than Prot-OP).
Seeing how effective Lifesteal has become, the healing mechanisms given to Dev-OPs are "mostly" unnecessary, and only make some content more palatable to an otherwise healer-less group. I think what's really missing is a Feat tree that "exploits" the Dev-OPs healing mechanisms with something OTHER THAN more healing.
As a "for instance," the Bulwark line (which is kind-of pitiful) could be re-worked to trigger group buff/debuff type skills off of attempted heals. Or maybe the Light line reworked to include "overhealing" being redirected to damage.
Overall I think the Paladin (espically with loadouts) is the most diverse class in the game, able to fill any role in the party. I don't think any kind of boost is currently needed for the class in general; in some cases a nerf would even be OK. But now that the other classes have proven they don't need the "God-Healer" that Dev-OPs can be, maybe it's time to re-think the Devotion Paladin's role.
> I personally would like to remove vow, use cure wounds, and go with a damage encounter that also buff/debuff.
>
> No, No, No! Leave Vow alone! The synergy between Bond and Vow when it comes to doing our core role is perfect. It gives you the damage buff and puts the healing on automatic. If we went the route you describe we might as well just sit in a corner and spam heal the tank and feed the rest of the heals through bond that way. Not to mention that it does no damage, doesn't buff/or debuff anything nor increase the proc rate for burning boons like vow and bond does. Cure has its place in the rotation and within certain conditions but it should NOT be a substitute for Vow. Now if you want to maybe look at removing the healing bonuses from say Aura of Restoration (a rubbish aura as it stands) or changing the mechanics for Aura of Solitude, or giving healing font both a heal, a DR buff, or maybe removal of control effects or something like that...got my vote. Vow though...needs to stay as it is.
sorry.. didnt mean it that way. I ment to take it out of my personal rotation, not from the game.
Our core role is pointless, thats why our spot in end game content is better filled by a DC that does a little healing, and some Life steal rating. Run 2 DC and a healadin is totally worthless.
I love the idea of a fighting healer, but a mega healer is just not needed. And you cant have a great DPS with great buffs, as it would be op OP .
Cant be a class thats great at all 3 things.. gotta give up on something. The one thing I think does need to be removed is Life Steal. And add much more health for all classes.
With much respect Captain , I'm gonna have to disagree with you on your first point while agreeing with you on others. The idea of taking Vow out of your rotation because then you'd have to not only give up your main buff for you, but also the armor pen bonus of Radiant Strike (since its that or Oath Strike has to go). This is just so you can heal in an emergency when you know you wouldn't have to as long as someone (ANYONE) is hitting your avowed target - preferrably the tank and the deeps. Not saying you couldn't run it that way, and you're free to play it how you want it, but I think you would just be making things harder on yourself and your team.
Now just because our core role is pointless (currently it is but MAY not stay that way) at endgame doesnt mean our role is totally pointless, because not everyone in game is at BiS endgame level and I would certainly hate if the changed around the mechanics and the heals weren't there where they are needed. Additionally, while our core role might be - again 'pointless', that IS our role (not saying we can't and shouldn't take on others when needed, but that one is ours - either healing or tanking). While I confess that I do get a kick out of (at times) being on top tier of Paingiver and executioner, if I do that and am out healed on Field Medic or if there multiple names in the Living Dead catergory with lots of numbers, then I've failed to do my principle role, which again, is the healer. Now while during the course of a run, I can and should be prepared to slot Bane or maybe slot Truth or Vengence if needed, but if someone takes a hit (and survives it) they're gonna be looking for the heals, not the buffs or debuffs to the mob that hit them. Now with that said, I DO agree with you that as the current meta stands, endgame runs are better served by the AC and DO combo for best buff/debuff, heals, and damage. If our current configuration doesn't best support the endgame party as a Devo then thank goodness for loadouts, and I hope every Devo (and Prot) has a loadout of the other for maximum flexibility.
Finally, you hit the nail on the head, Captain, but you didn't drive it home. Lifesteal is just ONE part of the problem of why our core role is unneeded but not the only one. Personally, I feel that lifesteal should be readjusted downward for all the classes except for SWs. In my feeble mind, they should be the ONLY ones who should be able to steal health from a target. As it stands now, everyone can do it - if you pack enough lifesteal. To me, the bigger problem is the mass availability of other self-healing methods within the game (not including healer companions, potions and stones of health), you have armor, weapons, mount insignia, artifacts which negate the need for any healing role, be it player or companion. To me, thats where the devs need to start with rebalancing, looking at all of the self-healing items and mechanics that are in game and utilized by the non-healing classes and give them a downward adjust, while boosting traditional healing sources like potions and companions. Boosts or nerfs in damage or adding buffs or debuffs to classes are simply band-aids that don't address the core problem of this game which is power creep. Party hits hard, mobs hit hard enough to insta-death, Party hits even harder and so on. Devs readjust both and then the cycle begins anew. So they need to look at lifesteal, and Damage Resistance, AND the multitude of self-heals and readjust the endgame BiS demigods back to the status. That's my two cents, good Sir.
I've been thinking about this recently... Is there ANY non-Boon advantage to a Devotion Paladin? I may be missing something, but I think the answer is no.
Protection Paladins were given Temp HP and extra agro to assist tanking. Devotion Paladins were given extra healing mechanisms, but nothing else. It appears that (without Boons) a Devotion Paladin is both a tank that can't hold agro and a healer that can't buff/debuff (any better than Prot-OP).
Seeing how effective Lifesteal has become, the healing mechanisms given to Dev-OPs are "mostly" unnecessary, and only make some content more palatable to an otherwise healer-less group. I think what's really missing is a Feat tree that "exploits" the Dev-OPs healing mechanisms with something OTHER THAN more healing.
As a "for instance," the Bulwark line (which is kind-of pitiful) could be re-worked to trigger group buff/debuff type skills off of attempted heals. Or maybe the Light line reworked to include "overhealing" being redirected to damage.
Overall I think the Paladin (espically with loadouts) is the most diverse class in the game, able to fill any role in the party. I don't think any kind of boost is currently needed for the class in general; in some cases a nerf would even be OK. But now that the other classes have proven they don't need the "God-Healer" that Dev-OPs can be, maybe it's time to re-think the Devotion Paladin's role.
Sir, I think you've indirectly made my point for me, they don't need a 'God-Healer' when the demigods can heal themselves through the various of self-healing mechanics and items. As I stated above in my response to @captflint, these I think could do some serious readjustments since if BiS squad packs enough of them, they can mow through mobs with little to no consequence. So I think it is time to rethink some roles and not just the Devo pally's role. Two more of my cents.
You really dont need vow for healing if you got 100% up time on prism. There is so many sources of healing. our best damage encounters also heal. Oath strike heals. (yes, id give up Radiant. 5% Armp is not hard to come by). Divine Call.. All feeding Bond. Boosted with Shield of Faith.. Lots of healing without VoW. Ready for this? My tankadin out heals DC. Yup. Prism 3/5 and 1 point in beacon. Thats 2 points for Purifying Fire (good stuff). I use burning light for mobs which increases incoming healing 100%, gifts of light 10%.. add in light touched for AP gain from healing spells.. 100% up time prism and almost 100% for Beacon of hope proc VIA Shield of Faith... and of coarse, Life steal. Im only out healed by a healadin, and it aint a huge margin. And those heals im throwing out, coupled with the fact that tanks get 500% threat increase? You know what healing does for threat... I got all the rousing warmth, burning guidance, and healing warmth boons... Vow is good for that 20% damage, but its one target, and only for you. Bane is a much better choice. This is not the class to be selfish with for the sake of a little more DPS. Everyone gets to do more damage, and the mob does less damage, making your heals less important. VoW does proc the boons better than without, but there was a nerf to it, and if you have other incoming healing sources, then prism will close that gap.
Now if you have a weak group, then yes.. VoW is good. But now that Im getting into tank, I realize most people die because of stupidity, and no amount of healing will fix that. People will seriously stand next to me and even right in front of me.. Nope, not picking them up. L2P. In groups like that, my tankadin comes out top of everything but deaths. Usually that number 1 spot goes to a GWF.
Change VoW so that all get 20% increased damage, then you be talkin'
You really dont need vow for healing if you got 100% up time on prism. There is so many sources of healing. our best damage encounters also heal. Oath strike heals. (yes, id give up Radiant. 5% Armp is not hard to come by). Divine Call.. All feeding Bond. Boosted with Shield of Faith.. Lots of healing without VoW. Ready for this? My tankadin out heals DC. Yup. Prism 3/5 and 1 point in beacon. Thats 2 points for Purifying Fire (good stuff). I use burning light for mobs which increases incoming healing 100%, gifts of light 10%.. add in light touched for AP gain from healing spells.. 100% up time prism and almost 100% for Beacon of hope proc VIA Shield of Faith... and of coarse, Life steal. Im only out healed by a healadin, and it aint a huge margin. And those heals im throwing out, coupled with the fact that tanks get 500% threat increase? You know what healing does for threat... I got all the rousing warmth, burning guidance, and healing warmth boons... Vow is good for that 20% damage, but its one target, and only for you. Bane is a much better choice. This is not the class to be selfish with for the sake of a little more DPS. Everyone gets to do more damage, and the mob does less damage, making your heals less important. VoW does proc the boons better than without, but there was a nerf to it, and if you have other incoming healing sources, then prism will close that gap.
Now if you have a weak group, then yes.. VoW is good. But now that Im getting into tank, I realize most people die because of stupidity, and no amount of healing will fix that. People will seriously stand next to me and even right in front of me.. Nope, not picking them up. L2P. In groups like that, my tankadin comes out top of everything but deaths. Usually that number 1 spot goes to a GWF.
Change VoW so that all get 20% increased damage, then you be talkin'
I need to run with you Captain, so you can smack me up side the head with that loadout of yours. Not everyday and on every run do I have an 100% uptime on Prism, and I honestly feel I might be doing something wrong in my rotation with 5 points slotted against that particular feat.
Now you're right, prior to this latest nerf Vow's damage increase applied to your damaging boons giving it an additional reason to slot it, now it doesn't. However, I still look at Vow in the same way I used to look at Astral Seal (Pre-Mod 6 change) on my DC - Just apply it and the rest follows the K.I.S.S. principle, whereby all the rest of the team has to do was hit the target, which they're going to do anyway, and they get some healing. Unfortunately, those days are gone and even back then, most endgame groups had enough self-heals and knowledge of the boss mechanics to survive without heals anyways, hence my argument for the devs to relook at that. I honestly feel that paladin's in general and devotion paladin's in particular are correctly balanced at this point as are many of the other classes (if you don't take into account all the self-healing available to them).
While, I agree that Bane is a good choice for party benefit, I find that with its slower animation these days and need to apply three times for the full benefit, that I only use it in boss fights where I'm using Vow all the time on the biggest baddie in the group, and I can cast just ahead of the group I'm following to keep the tank up and running before I get there. However, you're right again in that most do die of their own carelessness, though occassionally mistakes are made, which is why I tend to slot Life when I'm in group (as perhaps the Undead will now serve me better than the living did and stay in proximity >:) ) even if the Tank isn't a Prot. Bottom line for me is that while we do have multiple means of healing as paladins in general (devos in particular), I still think that how Vow is structured still makes it indispensable in the rotation, but lets just agree to disagree.
Now your suggestion about changing Vow to give it a 20% damage boost of all damage, AND for the entire team, I could rally behind that call! Cheers!
You really dont need vow for healing if you got 100% up time on prism. There is so many sources of healing. our best damage encounters also heal. Oath strike heals. (yes, id give up Radiant. 5% Armp is not hard to come by). Divine Call.. All feeding Bond. Boosted with Shield of Faith.. Lots of healing without VoW. Ready for this? My tankadin out heals DC. Yup. Prism 3/5 and 1 point in beacon. Thats 2 points for Purifying Fire (good stuff). I use burning light for mobs which increases incoming healing 100%, gifts of light 10%.. add in light touched for AP gain from healing spells.. 100% up time prism and almost 100% for Beacon of hope proc VIA Shield of Faith... and of coarse, Life steal. Im only out healed by a healadin, and it aint a huge margin. And those heals im throwing out, coupled with the fact that tanks get 500% threat increase? You know what healing does for threat... I got all the rousing warmth, burning guidance, and healing warmth boons... Vow is good for that 20% damage, but its one target, and only for you. Bane is a much better choice. This is not the class to be selfish with for the sake of a little more DPS. Everyone gets to do more damage, and the mob does less damage, making your heals less important. VoW does proc the boons better than without, but there was a nerf to it, and if you have other incoming healing sources, then prism will close that gap.
Now if you have a weak group, then yes.. VoW is good. But now that Im getting into tank, I realize most people die because of stupidity, and no amount of healing will fix that. People will seriously stand next to me and even right in front of me.. Nope, not picking them up. L2P. In groups like that, my tankadin comes out top of everything but deaths. Usually that number 1 spot goes to a GWF.
Change VoW so that all get 20% increased damage, then you be talkin'
I have to say as a DPS GF, who's ran with a similarly built OP I freaking love this build.
You can tank, dps, and reflect out heals like mad. The amount of extra healing you pump out at little cost is well worth it, not only for group survivability, but also for extra damage through healing warmth and burning guidance.
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tripsofthrymrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,624Community Moderator
This thread is to present a specific DPS-oriented build. Please create a new topic if you want to discuss suggested changes to OP class mechanics in general. That keeps this thread focused, and makes it easier for the developers to see your suggestions. Thanks!
I see what Trip means - the discussion is in danger of moving away from Veywiils actual build and into a discussion about theoretical changes to the class.
A lot of people get directed to this thread to read about the build itself so perhaps starting a different thread on "changes to Devo Pally skills to make them more relevant/desirable" would be a good idea?
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
I see what Trip means - the discussion is in danger of moving away from Veywiils actual build and into a discussion about theoretical changes to the class.
A lot of people get directed to this thread to read about the build itself so perhaps starting a different thread on "changes to Devo Pally skills to make them more relevant/desirable" would be a good idea?
You mean kinda like @isaintify's thread from back in March. Gonna give that one a boost up to the front pages, if no one objects and lets move that potential discussion of a paragon rework along. There were already many suggestions and ideas on how to improve the class with the intent to make it relevant at endgame. Hopefully the devs might give it a look-see and incorporate some ideas. My last two cents and to @tripsofthrymr - Thanks for the vector check, Sir.
I have updated the document link to reflect an entire document rework. I din't want to make all of these in the main document as it would cause chaos for the readers. I know I am going to get plagued with comments like "Your gear choices are garbage!". Most of what I am presenting is choices to get you thinking. There is BiS armor, and I often mention it. Unfortunately staying within theme of making the build widely available to the 95% of the population requires me to mention (and in some cases use) non BiS items.
Also, my apologies on this taking so long. The ring section isn't done as of this posting, but I didn't want to hold this up any longer.
I'm trying something new to the document, as some of you may have noticed. There are comments on the side of the document, opposite of the outline. I have already allowed certain theorycrafters to access the document with comment permissions. This allows them to make suggestions, or correct some logic, math or spelling through the article. I periodically go through them and determine the merit / value of the comments. Most comments will be resolved, as I generally incorporate the ideas into the document. Either refuting or accepting your comment where it seems reasonable to do so. In other cases I have left comments on the side with a reply of my own. Generally these are footnotes that won't get added to the document at a later date but might be interesting to read as extra discussion in that area.
This should help the document be complete and up to date from now on. It also provides a number of perspectives from low IL to high, keeping me inline with my original statements of making it available as a core/basis to everyone. If anyone would like access, simply shoot me an email (the document should have a way to request access). Or you can use the forums, or the game to get me an email address so I can add you. Obviously this is at my discretion, but I'm fairly flexible when it comes to receiving critics. When you get accepted please remember comments are visible to everyone viewing the document. I appreciate the time that people can offer to help out with this. Thank you.
I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
I'm trying something new to the document, as some of you may have noticed. There are comments on the side of the document, opposite of the outline. I have already allowed certain theorycrafters to access the document with comment permissions. This allows them to make suggestions, or correct some logic, math or spelling through the article. I periodically go through them and determine the merit / value of the comments. Most comments will be resolved, as I generally incorporate the ideas into the document. Either refuting or accepting your comment where it seems reasonable to do so. In other cases I have left comments on the side with a reply of my own. Generally these are footnotes that won't get added to the document at a later date but might be interesting to read as extra discussion in that area.
This should help the document be complete and up to date from now on. It also provides a number of perspectives from low IL to high, keeping me inline with my original statements of making it available as a core/basis to everyone. If anyone would like access, simply shoot me an email (the document should have a way to request access). Or you can use the forums, or the game to get me an email address so I can add you. Obviously this is at my discretion, but I'm fairly flexible when it comes to receiving critics. When you get accepted please remember comments are visible to everyone viewing the document. I appreciate the time that people can offer to help out with this. Thank you.
First off, GREAT guide. It is seriously a game changer for folks looking into the Burnadin build and a lot more accessible reading to the newer player while still retaining the meat and maths of the original guide.
Just one question: How do we view other people's comments? I can only see mine.... I would love to see other people's comments as I think that would take Guide Writing to a whole new level.
Just to let you know, there are a number of fully geared paladins in my guild that have your build on a loadout slot - they all love it
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
I'm interested what you mean because as a healer DC is preferred not OP as a tank GF is preferred not OP as a dps OP is the worst.
I don't know what kind of Pally you play but I can assure you this class outheals a DC and out tanks a GF. A GF can out DPS an OP if they spec that way but they can't tank & DPS simultaneously. Let us know what platform you're on and I'm sure you'll find a volunteer to provide you with a demonstration. I'm on XBox.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Just one question: How do we view other people's comments? I can only see mine.... I would love to see other people's comments as I think that would take Guide Writing to a whole new level.
You are the only one who has commented thus far. Although I encourage others to contact me if they wish to make suggestions. I know it is a long read, but in the next few weeks, I would like to get some of this hammered out. So any insight provided is beneficial for both me, and for everyone referencing the guide. @armadeonx, @trzebiat#2067, @rjc9000 Don't know if any of you have time, but I'd be especially curious about your input.
I don't know what kind of Pally you play but I can assure you this class outheals a DC and out tanks a GF. A GF can out DPS an OP if they spec that way but they can't tank & DPS simultaneously. Let us know what platform you're on and I'm sure you'll find a volunteer to provide you with a demonstration. I'm on XBox.
I am on PC and willing to talk to @nemesrich, although not endgame like many others. I can still squirm my way to #1-2 on almost all charts in a dungeon/ Dragonflight though. I looked through @nemesrich 's profile, and it looks like he is either new or a recently intense advocate of paladin buffs. If anything the only buffs that we really need is literally ways to buff people. In a lot of areas for both Prot/Devo, I feel very comfortable with the class, and do not thin we need a nerf, nor a buff in PVE content. Will we be chose over GF's or DC's? Yes. Will we be excluded from endgame dungeon runs? No. I could write pages and pages about this topic, but in a nuthsell, we are actually surprisingly balanced and offer diversity that other classes don't have in PvE based content. PvP is a whole 'nother world and not one I wish to discuss when it comes to common 'Balance topics'.
I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
I have updated the document link to reflect an entire document rework. I din't want to make all of these in the main document as it would cause chaos for the readers. I know I am going to get plagued with comments like "Your gear choices are garbage!". Most of what I am presenting is choices to get you thinking. There is BiS armor, and I often mention it. Unfortunately staying within theme of making the build widely available to the 95% of the population requires me to mention (and in some cases use) non BiS items.
My biggest critique is: why mention an item is "BiS" if it's not actually "best in slot? Why not just mention what's BiS, say that those are relegated to endgame players, and focus on the alternative general workhorse gear?
You attempt to do this, even setting up a color coding system to accomplish this goal. What confuses me even more is that you even set up the color coding options for different gear brackets, but didn't bother use it to differentiate between non BiS and BiS gear for some sections.
Sometimes, you only mention the items which are actually BiS, but are somewhat unobtainable for newer players. An example is only mentioning the Orcus Belt/Neck and Sphene Set in your Belt/Neck section, but then not mentioning any cheaper alternatives. (I would personally consider Imperial Dragon Cloak/Losty Cloak/Black Ice Cloak with Greater Belt of Black Ice for the "cheap alternative").
Other times, you only mention the "not quite as amazing but cheaper to get" options, but not the BiS options. Examples of this inconsistency include Armor and Weapons (no mention of Primal Arms, whose set bonus counts towards bare Power? No mention of the Primal boots, whose set bonus has no ICD? No mention of Titansteel, especially considering Lifeforged doesn't work for powershare and Fey would arguably be better for a Prism spamming build?).
It feels very inconsistent and leaves me very confused. ---
Anyways, some minor asides:
Radiant Strike actually gives you a 5% damage buff, rather than 5% more Power. Significant, since the damage buff only applies to you and is much better for personal DPS over having 5% more Power.
I am wondering why you don't consider Assassin' Covenant in place of Protector's Friendship. It's not like Healadin needs Lifesteal, Deflect is garbage, Defense when you have Shepherd's. Might as well turn some of those useless stats into something which boosts your own DPS and buffs your team.
I personally love Gladiator's Guile and was about to ask why you never considered it, since moving 15% faster means being able to dodge better. In hindsight, it only really is a Stamina gain boost, and Shepherd's + Radiant Champion + Artificers already makes you move at Sanic Speed. So, you could conceivably skip it, since your preferences are different than mine.
Though your functional description of Lightning is correct, Lightning is not the go to enchant for most classes, it is more of a gimmick enchant that only is useful on AoE (the only class that Lightning ISN'T a gimmick on is GWF, but this is not a GWF discussion). You may not want to confuse some poor newbie who thinks Lightning is good on HR/TR/SW/DC/GF, only to learn they made a poor purchase.
I was initially going to say there were no boot recommendations, but they are placed under weapon set. Though it makes sense when you are looking I am used to many guides going by categories (ex: recommending Armor Pieces, then weapons ,then offensive slots, then defensive slots, then weapon enchants, then armor enchants, etc.), so I would personally place the boot recommendations under the gloves.
Edit: I am personally surprised you didn't suggest running all Dominance (Power)/Prosperity insignias for BiS players. BiS players will likely stack all of their ArmPen and Crit inside their companion due to Aura Gifts counting only base Power. Power Insignias do count towards base Power and blue Dominance insignias on PC are fairly cheap that you won't have to break the bank to get a full set.
I am personally not a fan of the Harper Bard and really don't get why everyone hypes him up so much. His debuff only works when your target is about to die. Furthermore, its debuff is only worth 8%, as per Michela's sheet (note that the only real change to debuffs is how they are calculated and debuff diminishing returns, but the actual numerical debuff values should be the same).The only noteworthy thing is the HP buff but that's not really worth the money in my eyes. I would mention the Power/Crit buff, but I don't know the exact numbers.
Speaking of price, why not just run a Con Artist? The Con Artist is cheaper to get, has much more versatile companion slots, and has a comparable debuffing for your team, but without requiring a specific condition to be met. Sure, you lose 10% HP and some amount of Crit and Power, but I don't think the Power given is high enough to write home about.
@veywiil. Thanks for highlighting the 'dangers' of the Soulforge enchant in the guide, however I don't agree that is worst enchant for us or that its useless, but its utility is very situational. At lower IL or with such groups, it can be a life saver as it performs its role without the need of a rescuer and potentially adding another player to the list of those needed in a rez. Yes, it leaves you in an extremely vulnerable state - I agree, but at that point, a Devo can pull out of the fight, heal up via sanctuary, get bond back up. I've noticed that when I run without it (alternating between Negation and now, Thunderhead), and go down in a group, either my cries for a rez occasionally get ignored or worse, someone answers and they eventually join me at the fire circle. Like I said, not an issue with groups running the T3 dungeons, but T2 and below and they could wipe before you get back into position. Other than that, I think the guide looks great and thanks for publishing/updating.
I am on PC and willing to talk to @nemesrich, although not endgame like many others. I can still squirm my way to #1-2 on almost all charts in a dungeon/ Dragonflight though. I looked through @nemesrich 's profile, and it looks like he is either new or a recently intense advocate of paladin buffs.
The first one. I just read and heard lots of things about GF and OP but I'm beginning to see you are right.
Comments
I have asked that trzebiat give me a hand in some of the higher item levels of the Burnadin, as the new guide that is coming will be more modular in nature, rather than linear kind of scaling. I am working on it, and will have something posted by Friday 11th at the latest, I know that's a long time, but as I already statted, it takes a LONG time to rework 20+ pages of material around a number of nerfs, as well as changes I have been wanting to make. I'm forced to retest a number of old things, and a number of new things. I figure between the two of us, we can get rid of most of the bugs and non-optimal choices in the guide at all levels. In game I'm actually not above 12k IL, so the best I can do is theorize how things work up there, with trzebiat who has a toon with optimized gear at that level it should be a lot easier to get realistic numbers and options for endgame Burnadins.
I once again ask for your patience, and thank you for the patience and support that everyone has already shown. I don't believe we are dead, but I do stand by my original statement that with mod 12 our viability is significantly dropped. I sincerely hope it doesn't hit console the same way it hit PC. I really really hope it doesn't.
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
As to the Dev OP class itself, even if we ignore all the potential nerfs, it fails to keep up with gearing up and increasing IL because it relies too much on flat damage (which is also additionally punished by 75% effectiveness vs targets 3 lvl above yours). And there's no work around because Dev OP is forced into always using Bond and Vow (while Prot can get away without even using TW). While it's fun and really viable at lower IL (I enjoyed it myself), at late end game there are only few places where Dev has upper hand over Prot, mainly in content with lots of people or when there's constant damage over time to heal through. To partially compensate the loss of amount of procs of flat damage sources due to time required to kill things getting shorter Dev OP has to start relying on other sources that have better scaling, but it's really hard when you have only one encounter and Divine Judgement for that. Also the content doesn't help either, when BL is the best AoE encounter, the target cap, time required to charge and can be interrupted makes it harder to use in FBI for example. RA which is amazing for damage and AP gain allowing more daily spamming on the other hand has knock back effect which is very unwanted in most situations (why it can't be prone?).
It's sad truth but for late end game Prot offers much better buffs while also can dish out more damage. Power share alone (which is about 20-25k Power higher) makes Prot much better than Dev for any content where there's no need for constant healing and Life Steal is enough. Then we have Circle of Power that not only increases OP's damage, but also gives everyone 25% DR (the best Paladin power in my opinion), and also more Power means better Shepherd's buff to Defense/Deflect/Movement than on Dev. I'd say the loss of damage output on Dev wouldn't be a problem if Dev would have any direct percentage damage buffs for the whole party, at least on par with DO DC's TI, but even then it wouldn't be much. The 5% stats increase from the mechanic is laughable.
I agree, that sucks big. And I think the best what any OP can do is to learn how to play both Dev and Prot, because with loadouts this is the biggest advantage OP has over other classes. You can't simply play only Dev OP forever, even when there's GF in party, in most cases switching to Prot is better for the team. Same goes for Prot, sometimes switching to Dev will be better, even if there's no other tank, as holding aggro on Dev isn't really hard.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
I cant believe how much better prot is for buffs. its just.... WOW WHAT?
Why cant the power buff be the same except as apposed to taking damage, healing?
Why do so many encounter have to be throwing out heals as well? Smite for protection is amazing.. They really need to remove the healing from encounters and add buff/debuffs.
With vow, bond, oath strike, and divine call, what else do you need to heal?? If its not enough, then cure wounds instead of radiant.
I personally would like to remove vow, use cure wounds, and go with a damage encounter that also buff/debuff.
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
> I personally would like to remove vow, use cure wounds, and go with a damage encounter that also buff/debuff.
>
> No, No, No! Leave Vow alone! The synergy between Bond and Vow when it comes to doing our core role is perfect. It gives you the damage buff and puts the healing on automatic. If we went the route you describe we might as well just sit in a corner and spam heal the tank and feed the rest of the heals through bond that way. Not to mention that it does no damage, doesn't buff/or debuff anything nor increase the proc rate for burning boons like vow and bond does. Cure has its place in the rotation and within certain conditions but it should NOT be a substitute for Vow. Now if you want to maybe look at removing the healing bonuses from say Aura of Restoration (a rubbish aura as it stands) or changing the mechanics for Aura of Solitude, or giving healing font both a heal, a DR buff, or maybe removal of control effects or something like that...got my vote. Vow though...needs to stay as it is.
sorry.. didnt mean it that way. I ment to take it out of my personal rotation, not from the game.
Our core role is pointless, thats why our spot in end game content is better filled by a DC that does a little healing, and some Life steal rating. Run 2 DC and a healadin is totally worthless.
I love the idea of a fighting healer, but a mega healer is just not needed. And you cant have a great DPS with great buffs, as it would be op OP
Cant be a class thats great at all 3 things.. gotta give up on something. The one thing I think does need to be removed is Life Steal. And add much more health for all classes.
Protection Paladins were given Temp HP and extra agro to assist tanking. Devotion Paladins were given extra healing mechanisms, but nothing else. It appears that (without Boons) a Devotion Paladin is both a tank that can't hold agro and a healer that can't buff/debuff (any better than Prot-OP).
Seeing how effective Lifesteal has become, the healing mechanisms given to Dev-OPs are "mostly" unnecessary, and only make some content more palatable to an otherwise healer-less group. I think what's really missing is a Feat tree that "exploits" the Dev-OPs healing mechanisms with something OTHER THAN more healing.
As a "for instance," the Bulwark line (which is kind-of pitiful) could be re-worked to trigger group buff/debuff type skills off of attempted heals. Or maybe the Light line reworked to include "overhealing" being redirected to damage.
Overall I think the Paladin (espically with loadouts) is the most diverse class in the game, able to fill any role in the party. I don't think any kind of boost is currently needed for the class in general; in some cases a nerf would even be OK. But now that the other classes have proven they don't need the "God-Healer" that Dev-OPs can be, maybe it's time to re-think the Devotion Paladin's role.
Now just because our core role is pointless (currently it is but MAY not stay that way) at endgame doesnt mean our role is totally pointless, because not everyone in game is at BiS endgame level and I would certainly hate if the changed around the mechanics and the heals weren't there where they are needed. Additionally, while our core role might be - again 'pointless', that IS our role (not saying we can't and shouldn't take on others when needed, but that one is ours - either healing or tanking). While I confess that I do get a kick out of (at times) being on top tier of Paingiver and executioner, if I do that and am out healed on Field Medic or if there multiple names in the Living Dead catergory with lots of numbers, then I've failed to do my principle role, which again, is the healer. Now while during the course of a run, I can and should be prepared to slot Bane or maybe slot Truth or Vengence if needed, but if someone takes a hit (and survives it) they're gonna be looking for the heals, not the buffs or debuffs to the mob that hit them. Now with that said, I DO agree with you that as the current meta stands, endgame runs are better served by the AC and DO combo for best buff/debuff, heals, and damage. If our current configuration doesn't best support the endgame party as a Devo then thank goodness for loadouts, and I hope every Devo (and Prot) has a loadout of the other for maximum flexibility.
Finally, you hit the nail on the head, Captain, but you didn't drive it home.
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
Ready for this? My tankadin out heals DC. Yup. Prism 3/5 and 1 point in beacon. Thats 2 points for Purifying Fire (good stuff). I use burning light for mobs which increases incoming healing 100%, gifts of light 10%.. add in light touched for AP gain from healing spells.. 100% up time prism and almost 100% for Beacon of hope proc VIA Shield of Faith... and of coarse, Life steal.
Im only out healed by a healadin, and it aint a huge margin.
And those heals im throwing out, coupled with the fact that tanks get 500% threat increase? You know what healing does for threat...
I got all the rousing warmth, burning guidance, and healing warmth boons...
Vow is good for that 20% damage, but its one target, and only for you. Bane is a much better choice. This is not the class to be selfish with for the sake of a little more DPS. Everyone gets to do more damage, and the mob does less damage, making your heals less important.
VoW does proc the boons better than without, but there was a nerf to it, and if you have other incoming healing sources, then prism will close that gap.
Now if you have a weak group, then yes.. VoW is good. But now that Im getting into tank, I realize most people die because of stupidity, and no amount of healing will fix that. People will seriously stand next to me and even right in front of me.. Nope, not picking them up. L2P.
In groups like that, my tankadin comes out top of everything but deaths. Usually that number 1 spot goes to a GWF.
Change VoW so that all get 20% increased damage, then you be talkin'
Now you're right, prior to this latest nerf Vow's damage increase applied to your damaging boons giving it an additional reason to slot it, now it doesn't. However, I still look at Vow in the same way I used to look at Astral Seal (Pre-Mod 6 change) on my DC - Just apply it and the rest follows the K.I.S.S. principle, whereby all the rest of the team has to do was hit the target, which they're going to do anyway, and they get some healing. Unfortunately, those days are gone and even back then, most endgame groups had enough self-heals and knowledge of the boss mechanics to survive without heals anyways, hence my argument for the devs to relook at that. I honestly feel that paladin's in general and devotion paladin's in particular are correctly balanced at this point as are many of the other classes (if you don't take into account all the self-healing available to them).
While, I agree that Bane is a good choice for party benefit, I find that with its slower animation these days and need to apply three times for the full benefit, that I only use it in boss fights where I'm using Vow all the time on the biggest baddie in the group, and I can cast just ahead of the group I'm following to keep the tank up and running before I get there. However, you're right again in that most do die of their own carelessness, though occassionally mistakes are made, which is why I tend to slot Life when I'm in group (as perhaps the Undead will now serve me better than the living did and stay in proximity >:) ) even if the Tank isn't a Prot. Bottom line for me is that while we do have multiple means of healing as paladins in general (devos in particular), I still think that how Vow is structured still makes it indispensable in the rotation, but lets just agree to disagree.
Now your suggestion about changing Vow to give it a 20% damage boost of all damage, AND for the entire team, I could rally behind that call! Cheers!
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
You can tank, dps, and reflect out heals like mad. The amount of extra healing you pump out at little cost is well worth it, not only for group survivability, but also for extra damage through healing warmth and burning guidance.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
A lot of people get directed to this thread to read about the build itself so perhaps starting a different thread on "changes to Devo Pally skills to make them more relevant/desirable" would be a good idea?
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
Also, my apologies on this taking so long. The ring section isn't done as of this posting, but I didn't want to hold this up any longer.
Doc link for those who don't want to go back to the first page.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F-FmgmJShq4k1kectqvQcUStwfW2Vm1LKuJiaM7ZnTA
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
This should help the document be complete and up to date from now on. It also provides a number of perspectives from low IL to high, keeping me inline with my original statements of making it available as a core/basis to everyone. If anyone would like access, simply shoot me an email (the document should have a way to request access). Or you can use the forums, or the game to get me an email address so I can add you. Obviously this is at my discretion, but I'm fairly flexible when it comes to receiving critics. When you get accepted please remember comments are visible to everyone viewing the document. I appreciate the time that people can offer to help out with this. Thank you.
Just one question: How do we view other people's comments? I can only see mine.... I would love to see other people's comments as I think that would take Guide Writing to a whole new level.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
as a healer DC is preferred not OP
as a tank GF is preferred not OP
as a dps OP is the worst.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
You attempt to do this, even setting up a color coding system to accomplish this goal. What confuses me even more is that you even set up the color coding options for different gear brackets, but didn't bother use it to differentiate between non BiS and BiS gear for some sections.
Sometimes, you only mention the items which are actually BiS, but are somewhat unobtainable for newer players. An example is only mentioning the Orcus Belt/Neck and Sphene Set in your Belt/Neck section, but then not mentioning any cheaper alternatives. (I would personally consider Imperial Dragon Cloak/Losty Cloak/Black Ice Cloak with Greater Belt of Black Ice for the "cheap alternative").
Other times, you only mention the "not quite as amazing but cheaper to get" options, but not the BiS options. Examples of this inconsistency include Armor and Weapons (no mention of Primal Arms, whose set bonus counts towards bare Power? No mention of the Primal boots, whose set bonus has no ICD? No mention of Titansteel, especially considering Lifeforged doesn't work for powershare and Fey would arguably be better for a Prism spamming build?).
It feels very inconsistent and leaves me very confused.
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Anyways, some minor asides:
Speaking of price, why not just run a Con Artist? The Con Artist is cheaper to get, has much more versatile companion slots, and has a comparable debuffing for your team, but without requiring a specific condition to be met. Sure, you lose 10% HP and some amount of Crit and Power, but I don't think the Power given is high enough to write home about.
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac