On live, RI can NOT mitigate tenacity DR. Tenacity DR is on a different multiplicative layer. The only thing that ties RI to tenacity DR is that the minimum effectiveness is 20%. That is also true on ptr. That is not 1 of the differences between live and ptr.
Last time I tested [Link] RI was able to mitigate tenacity DR, was actually confirmed by some other players as well. Maybe they've changed something in the past couple of months? Anyway this would be the past soon so forget about it
I just double checked live using a few scenarios similar to those you tested in that link above. I think there may be an issue with the data in your first arpresist + crit scenario (31/31/42/11/11.7). I tested a similar scenario on live and both of our formulas correctly predicted the outcome to within 1 % (rounding, i suspect). I tested another higher tenacity scenario and got similar results as you, again within 1%.
It could be that they ninja changed live after your testing, but i suspect it is more likely that there was some other uncontrolled variable (deflect, shield, etc) or data input issue.
: Based on extensive tests we found out that 50% armor penetration resistance on Preview and 60-67% Armor pen resistance as it is on LIVE , its not going to cut it. For improving PvP for multiple reasons, such as making more buids viable, or to have PvE players trying out PvP, for the sake of those players to not have to stack high ammounts of RI such in my case 26k power 3k critical strike 23.000 armor pen 3k recovery and to decrease the discrepancy between the Stats themselves and PvE vs PVP, while the PvE altenrative is 38k power 18k crit and 8k arnor penetration Armor penetration resistance should be reverted back to 0% BASICALLY REMOVAL OF IT. Piercing damage should respect tenacity as its been mentioned by you, but huge tweaks arent that needed to fix the issue 1. the combat Hunter Rangerss after further tests it looked to be in decent position with Piercing Blades respects tenacity (since they do not crit they dont get 2x mitigated by critical resistance) and making armor penetration resistance to 0% , they can stack some armor penetration and get back the lost DPS through normal HITs. 2. the Shocking execution from Tricksters could get a base damage increase and that would solve the problem that they have atm on PTR, the SE gets mitigated by Tenacity DR and Critical Resistance for about 64% , this is a huge NERF, to keep the change of piercing damage respecting tenacity, YOU have to increase the base damage of the SE by 10-20-30%. its a WIN: WIN to keep it at a good level. 3. The class that would be in a bad spot in terms of its surviability its the Great Weapon Fighter, most of their DR gets mitigated by RI, but thats not the issue, the problem is that it should be on another layer of mitigation, thats why its surviability is terrible while other classes are performing better: making unstoppable decrease the incoming damage by 20% dmg and sprint by 15% dmg are decent changes: The only rework to the GWF class that needs to be done is not for PVP or PVE , its to make other paragons viable: the only thing that you have to do right now its to take 25% damage bonus from Focused destroyer+Destroyer class feature and 25% damage bonus from the Destroyer Purpose and add it to the base damage of the GWF, this way sentinel and instigator would close the huge gap of dmg that Destroyer is having against them, and the output damage of the Destroyer remains unchanged for both PvE and PvP 4. Thinking of a set value of the Tenacity DR = 40% or 50% also the rename of it and adding as a buff Damage Suppression 5. Critical Resistance could be set to 40% if you have any other solution to it, would be awesome to get one
On a side note: @nickjdowe wrote: "Instigator was never viable". This is false. PvP Instigator was the BiS build back on mod0 until devs changed the capstone, "Student of the sword" and other tree feature (don't remember wich one, TBH). Since then, Instigator was non viable, then, most GWFs swap into Destroyers, came mod2, overbuff of the class by adding the I.V. paragon tree on the class and messed up totally on mod3 with some changes like the "roar" one... and the over nerf on mod4 was class killer until a dev decided to buff the "intimidation" build... which was a bad taste joke.
quite funny how Devs changed GWF from Mod 1-2-3-and overnurf in mod 4.
SAD that classes like GF ARENT nurfed to oblivion like GWF were.
I might sound silly, but thats the class ive started playind in mod 2 , donated HUGE amounts of money into the game for my GWF. throughout mod 2 and 3... and what did i get in the end of the road? Mod 4 hit my face and was about o stop playing the game.
Mode 5 came and i have rerolled to DPS DC that was really fun no play. AND THAT was a SUPPORT class. Been playin it since then till today.
Mod 6 came out and what do we get? INSANE GF's that a re busting in pvp players in 2 hits. TILL NOW.
6 STRAIGHT mods for GF without a change to damage, nor control, nor shield.
Do you guys think its fun to have 2 classes in game that are BIS all around and not being able to pvp cuz of the insane GF's 2 shotting staff?
Why devs messed with my GWF back in mod 2-3-4 till i have to reroll? Why devs AINT making such changes to GF's THROUGH 6 mods straight?
GF is a support class.
What is it now? Best DPS in pvp, Best control in pvp and BEST shield mechanics with 80% cone radius ............ ARE YOU JOKING???
: Based on extensive tests we found out that 50% armor penetration resistance on Preview and 60-67% Armor pen resistance as it is on LIVE , its not going to cut it. For improving PvP for multiple reasons, such as making more buids viable, or to have PvE players trying out PvP, for the sake of those players to not have to stack high ammounts of RI such in my case 26k power 3k critical strike 23.000 armor pen 3k recovery and to decrease the discrepancy between the Stats themselves and PvE vs PVP, while the PvE altenrative is 38k power 18k crit and 8k arnor penetration Armor penetration resistance should be reverted back to 0% BASICALLY REMOVAL OF IT. Piercing damage should respect tenacity as its been mentioned by you, but huge tweaks arent that needed to fix the issue 1. the combat Hunter Rangerss after further tests it looked to be in decent position with Piercing Blades respects tenacity (since they do not crit they dont get 2x mitigated by critical resistance) and making armor penetration resistance to 0% , they can stack some armor penetration and get back the lost DPS through normal HITs. 2. the Shocking execution from Tricksters could get a base damage increase and that would solve the problem that they have atm on PTR, the SE gets mitigated by Tenacity DR and Critical Resistance for about 64% , this is a huge NERF, to keep the change of piercing damage respecting tenacity, YOU have to increase the base damage of the SE by 10-20-30%. its a WIN: WIN to keep it at a good level. 3. The class that would be in a bad spot in terms of its surviability its the Great Weapon Fighter, most of their DR gets mitigated by RI, but thats not the issue, the problem is that it should be on another layer of mitigation, thats why its surviability is terrible while other classes are performing better: making unstoppable decrease the incoming damage by 20% dmg and sprint by 15% dmg are decent changes: The only rework to the GWF class that needs to be done is not for PVP or PVE , its to make other paragons viable: the only thing that you have to do right now its to take 25% damage bonus from Focused destroyer+Destroyer class feature and 25% damage bonus from the Destroyer Purpose and add it to the base damage of the GWF, this way sentinel and instigator would close the huge gap of dmg that Destroyer is having against them, and the output damage of the Destroyer remains unchanged for both PvE and PvP 4. Thinking of a set value of the Tenacity DR = 40% or 50% also the rename of it and adding as a buff Damage Suppression 5. Critical Resistance could be set to 40% if you have any other solution to it, would be awesome to get one
On a side note: @nickjdowe wrote: "Instigator was never viable". This is false. PvP Instigator was the BiS build back on mod0 until devs changed the capstone, "Student of the sword" and other tree feature (don't remember wich one, TBH). Since then, Instigator was non viable, then, most GWFs swap into Destroyers, came mod2, overbuff of the class by adding the I.V. paragon tree on the class and messed up totally on mod3 with some changes like the "roar" one... and the over nerf on mod4 was class killer until a dev decided to buff the "intimidation" build... which was a bad taste joke.
I have no idea if this would be good or bad right now. But I do think its to much work for mod12 so this isnt really a viable option right now. And you cant just pick and choose 1 or 2 points from it and leave the rest out because that would not end up well.
We need easy and achievable changes for mod12 that wont ruin PvP. 0% armor penetration resistance is not good. 50% might be to much. I would look into 30-40% and also revert the piercing damage changes for now. And maybe do the crit changes ayroux proposed a few comments back.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
2
josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
edited July 2017
After testing and discussing the latest changes with many players in the community, I suggest the following for mod 12:
Drop Arpen resistance to 40%. This should make it consistent with your long-term goal of 200:1. Reason: the 200:1 only applies to the arpen stat, and thus doesn't impact boons and ability scores (etc) that give flat RI %. The 50% arpen resistance on ptr affects these flat RI sources as well. Thus, to achieve something closer to the 200:1 impact, arpen resistance at 40% (for all) is better. This level of arpen tenacity also forces players to choose: (1) focus power to damage low-dr classes, or (2) focus RI to damage high-dr classes. Choices are good!
Please do NOT reduce arpen resistance to 0%. This would effectively make DR a useless stat in pvp, make crits even worse than noncrits relative to live pvp, and create significant class balance disruption that would require class balance changes very unlikely to be tested and incorporated in time for mod 12. Also, this change would actually make the 4 low dr classes MORE tanky in pvp since they would get more lifesteal from more damage, and the additional RI doesn't impact them because they are already at 0% effective dr. If the goal of this is to decrease pvp tankiness, then it fails for half the classes! Better just to slightly reduce base tenacity dr and/or nerf endless consumption.
If piercing is to be impacted by tenacity in mod 12, Shocking Execution should receive a damage increase. Maybe 25% or so. Without this change, tenacity should not appply to piercing in mod 12.
Consider Diminishing returns on CC in mod 12. Piercing changes will bring about increased CC meta. Diminishing returns on CC would help counter this.
Consider changing the way crit tenacity gets applied for mod 12. Best approach I have seen: adjust crit severity. something like (1 + crit severity) * (1 - crit tenacity), rather than the way it is currently applied. This change will make crits better than noncrits regardless of the effective DR of the enemy.
Consider setting base tenacity and crit tenacity at a constant for all characters, not based on gear. Something around 45% (assuming crit rework above). For mod 12. Consider decreasing the 45% if damage is not high enough.
@darthtzarr In the majority you write good things.
But how many times you think about BiS premade vs BiS premade?
Many people that complain here(no, not you, you write good things) just do not know how is going this pvp when all have many hp, healing, defence, CC and DC in both teams
I will be honest, I do not play BiS premade pvp, since I have not yet reached BiS (or even close enough to compete on any level), my experience with pvp would probably be described as the once a week pvper. The alliance I am in does regular 10v10 GG matches, but these are nothing like a BiS premade match. I have watched several BiS premade games, but have never been able to play in one.
I never know if any suggestion I give is good or not, but I try to be at least somewhat informed before giving feedback. If you are still curious about what I actually do/don't know, please PM me instead of cluttering this thread more than it already is with accusations of ignorance, or pointless insults.
*Those are 2 pics, open in an other browser tab if its not big enough to read. THX* @rgutscheradev
First of all, I want to give creeds for the good structure of the post. I can appreciate the work you put into it and the way you argue for your ideas and opinions.
With that said, Im not convinced that the ideas are good or achievable for mod12. We tried 0% and I think there were to many downsides. CW was OP, the OP wasn't viable and GWF ofc as you all know wasn't either. I know you suggested a fix for the last one, but Im unsure if the devs has the time to change classes. Would be good to know where we stand on that @rgutscheradev.
I also do believe as others has stated, that making DR stats meaningless is bad for PvP with 0% arpen resistance. And some previous dev posts, Indicated that they want to move towards 200:1 and this would be a step in the opposite direction.
I do however feel that Arpen resistance needs to be lowered from 50% to 40%.
I do strongly believe that closing the gear gap between PvP and PvE players is a big issue that needs to be dealt with. But not at any cost and it needs to be carefully considered. Removing tenacity from the gear is a big step towards that but not enough.
Of course, if we remove Tenacity, the gear that had it will get stats to make up for it. The goal would be that it’s gear that is of an appropriate power level for its item level.
I want deflect or lifesteal for my CW on the executioner PvP gear.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
1
starheretic70Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 52Arc User
the goal of the moderator will be to listen to the real players who do the math from the dudes who spew numbers and fallacies.
2
treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
It will depend on the values of tenacity but SE should go down to more or less one third, so mega hits from 300k to something arounnd 100k, from 1 aspect i can already point a great thing, people aren't forced to build full HP. And think about it why don't TR's use hateful knives in pvp or lurker's assault? Because they have no efficient way of bringging a enemy down using those powers ( not all cases), so TR's will now focus mostly in perma CB to lock "visitors" on a conquered base. This means a full class rellies on a just a few powers to be viable. A new layer enters the game he/she expects powers will be usefull acordingly to the situatiin, so what needs to be looked at is overall TR state, not roll back to Super SE build,
2
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Drop Arpen resistance to 40%. This should make it consistent with your long-term goal of 200:1. Reason: the 200:1 only applies to the arpen stat, and thus doesn't impact boons and ability scores (etc) that give flat RI %. The 50% arpen resistance on ptr affects these flat RI sources as well. Thus, to achieve something closer to the 200:1 impact, arpen resistance at 40% (for all) is better. This level of arpen tenacity also forces players to choose: (1) focus power to damage low-dr classes, or (2) focus RI to damage high-dr classes. Choices are good!
Please do NOT reduce arpen resistance to 0%. This would effectively make DR a useless stat, make crits even worse than noncrits relative to live, and create significant class balance disruption that would require class balance changes very unlikely to be tested and incorporated in time for mod 12. Also, this change would actually make the 4 low dr classes MORE tanky since they would get more lifesteal from more damage, and the additional RI doesn't impact them because they are already at 0% effective dr. If the goal of this is to decrease tankiness, then it fails for half the classes! Better just to slightly reduce base tenacity dr.
If piercing is to be impacted by tenacity in mod 12, Shocking Execution should receive a damage increase. Maybe 25% or so. Without this change, tenacity should not appply to piercing in mod 12.
Consider Diminishing returns on CC in mod 12. Piercing changes will bring about increased CC meta. Diminishing returns on CC would help counter this.
Consider changing the way crit tenacity gets applied for mod 12. Best approach I have seen: adjust crit severity. something like (1 + crit severity) * (1 - crit tenacity), rather than the way it is currently applied. This change will make crits better than noncrits regardless of the effective DR of the enemy.
Consider setting base tenacity and crit tenacity at a constant for all characters, not based on gear. Something around 45% (assuming crit rework above). For mod 12. Consider decreasing the 45% if damage is not high enough.
sorry diminishing returns on control? a max bonus for a wizard if i take as example is 90%. you can go 180% control resistance and not only that also if you invest on deflection you get another 60% with the pot deflection severity and you have 240% total control resistance when you deflect.
IF you are refering to controls general is wrong you cant add diminishing returns because a rogue has courage breaker which happens to be debuff so you cant resist it, or the micro dazes + perma roots from hunter those have nothing to do with control resistances.
Of course, if we remove Tenacity, the gear that had it will get stats to make up for it. The goal would be that it’s gear that is of an appropriate power level for its item level.
I want deflect or lifesteal for my CW on the executioner PvP gear.
+1 or pvp /pve gear that drops with random stat distribution adding up to the same item level...certainly would make loot drops much more interesting again
possibly even the ability to randomly reroll stats as a group .;.with a currency sink to be determined
1
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
*Those are 2 pics, open in an other browser tab if its not big enough to read. THX* @rgutscheradev
AND only dps is boring and cancer isnt it? Game already give you 1: control resistance on tenacity 2: control resistance boons 3: ability scores control resistance 4: elven battle control resistance and 5 : deflection severity also resist controls 6: halfing race 10% control resist. what is wrong with you poeple?
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
AND some clear things about control and control resistance. On live when the enemy build hiself deflection-halfling- and adds in top of that an elven battle is able: TO walk in a smoke bomb without feel a slow effect. ( courage breaker i remind is a debuff). they are walking in icy terrain without feel the slow effect and also when they freeze its duration is a split second. shatered from opressor? another split second. from Control wizard point of view: i would waste a respec thinking to be an opressor in pvp with the above facts.
DO the mistake and add diminishing returns to control and let some classes with 0 investment in control stat to perma root-micro daze( ranger trapper) or perma slows( rogue) be the kings.
Reducing self-healing while keeping dc/op ability To make The team survive more, should be the key. Less self-healing means groups need a dc/op To survive more. At The same time dcs/ops would become less immortal due To The reduced effect of their heals on self. So a team with no dc/op will be able to actually use The extra dps. Right now, a team with dc/op vs a full dps team, has the upper hand. Must balance in my opinion. Reduce self heal a lot, keep outgoing heals relevant while solving immortal teams issues/immortal dcs-ops/stacked dcs and ops in one team
1
josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
> @pando83 said: > Reducing self-healing while keeping dc/op ability To make The team survive more, should be the key. Less self-healing means groups need a dc/op To survive more. At The same time dcs/ops would become less immortal due To The reduced effect of their heals on self. So a team with no dc/op will be able to actually use The extra dps. Right now, a team with dc/op vs a full dps team, has the upper hand. Must balance in my opinion. Reduce self heal a lot, keep outgoing heals relevant while solving immortal teams issues/immortal dcs-ops/stacked dcs and ops in one team
^^ this is a good idea. Consider increasing healing depression and/or nerfing endless consumption if it is doable for mod 12.
Nerf endless consumption if you have to.. but don't increase the healing depression anymore. It already is nerfed in pvp by 50% once you start taking damage. But if you absolutely must increase the healing depression you MUST reduce the GF's damage first.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
OK, coming to the next build on preview (most likely end of this week): * Piercing damage pierces armor (AC and Defense) but not other stuff (like Tenacity). * Armor Pen is only 50% effective in PvP.
I'm still not 100% convinced on the second one -- there are so many other changes that alter what AP will do (fixing the overpenetration bug, the above Piercing changes) -- but the forum consensus is very strong, and I do agree that having a reduced effectiveness provides a gentler ramp to a future world where AP scales at a rate closer to Defense (ie, moving from 100AP:1% to 200 or 300 to 1%).
If there's still a need for more help to GWFs, one possibility is to make the damage reduction from Unstoppable not count as armor (and hence, like Tenacity, not be penetrated by Armor Piercing) . Note that GWFs are very powerful in PvE, so there's a need to tread cautiously here, but this particular change could add a lot of extra survivability in PvP without affecting PvE too much. It might be right to accompany it with a slight decrease in the extra damage coming from Unstoppable (the total damage amounts we're seeing from GWFs is very high for a class that's much more resistant to damage than most other dps classes -- again, this is particularly true in PvE).
I want to encourage everyone with strong opinions here to actually test this stuff on preview. The theorycrafting is great and all, but it can only go so far. Part of where you can help us the most is actually trying it out and giving us reports from the front. (That's a big part of the idea behind the private PvP queues.)
Also, don't forget that a lot of the changes, such as possible CC tweaks, are coming later (ie, we are asking you all earlier, as requested!) and are discussed in the other PvP thread. So please do visit that thread for discussion about future changes. I'll try to keep this thread focused on changes appearing with the upcoming Chult release.
I didnt understand this change now piercing damage is 100% with those changes piercing damage will gain extra buff from frost, terror, combustive, ray, divine glow, PoD, Bear of sins, condeming gaze, Marks, pilar of power, wicked reminder, sly flurish... but will suffer reduction due to tenacity. consider tenacity is hard cap on 50%. with 5K ArP you can nullify it.... you are buffing piercing damage not making it managable at all
you try to fix broken mechanics with additional broken patch and it won't work. in my opnion there should not be piercing damage at all. you want to give them something, make it non defelct damage or 2X more ArP or 2X more crit severity or somethign similar
before one of the TR will whine "thats the only thing we have", let me make it clear SE is not the only damage TR have, they actually have EVERYTHING when it come to PVP. they have the best class features and off hand bonus they have great at will that can do easy 10K damage if they wish to put bit of ArP they have the best daily's by far. SE is one hit kill, CB is crazy strong can not be dodged (only power that can do that), even blood bath is crazy strong and every class will love to have it. they have the best powers, smoke bomb is one of the strogest powers (probably astral shield is the only one that can compete with this game breaking), ITC is crazy good and all the other are very good as well All this beside the 75% deflect severity, 2X more deflect, shadow stealth, 100% crit in shadow and 3 great paragon paths...
i woldn't hesitiate before changing the piercing damage
Premise: PVP is the game's end game so if you do not have the equipment you should not complain if you are killed by a BIS player in any case.
Did u test TR n PTR recently? Because right now even a BIS TR + Tenser hardly kill someone even with the rotations CB +Tenser+ BB, (i'm talking about BIS vs BIS player who actually play in PVP not pugs or people with the wrong build who complains of dying and wants to nerf everyone they can't kill) and during premade can't be compettive at all since he can't focus DPS. We heve no encounter for dealing serious damage and we always need 2 encounter just for not die (ITC and Shadow strike) so what's remains? CB and BB +at-will is simply not enough but more important the damage will be spread if there is more the 1 player around so will be useless.
BIS TR can't oneshot another BIS player in normal condition (first strike could be nerfed but it is the only way with which low gear TR can kill someone and have some fun, the alternatve is PERMACB for the happiness of everyone, but first srike could be nerfed) and SE is largely dodgeable. Right now we lost more then 60% damage from SE so we are forced to not use our best skill and will be unkillable class like cleric and paladins which will be unkillable without TR SE piercing damage or HR piercing + the buff of cleric and GF (there are OP with more then 300k HP and alot of mitigations and instant healing try to think that!)
Now as the live server now, the damage to pvp classes at high levels (good players with the right build) is correct for the amount of healing that is there. Also, it is not true that HR (or GF) damage is so absurd, once understood how to fight it, is predictable, all dodgeable and all good players in all classes can have a fair fight. The real problem of HR Combat with the absurd healing NOT the damage!
Moreover in conclusion if we start nerfing damage and this changes goes online we will return to having PVPs that will end with zero kill on both sides, more like a marathon to catch the nodes,this is NOT PVP ... you have already seen in module 7-8-9-10 until the advent of relic weapons. This is the way to LOSE other players not to get them back (like in mod 7-8-9-10).
sorry for my orrible english but i'll try to explain...
this is a HAMSTER .... i tried a lot of combo 1 vs 1 and i cant kill no one at this moment.... just gf's and some hr's trapper but no combat cause a lot of incoming healing and my little stupid dmg can just scratch their back....
tried a lot of combo with exe,scoundrel,sabo... arpen or not, but our enchounter cant deal dmg LOL ... im a tr bis just without legendary mount( soo almost) and , before, without tenser buff I have had many difficulties for kill a lot of classes(im sabo not exe first striker) cause incoming heal from feat's (HR'S),lion, whell, bonuses insignas.... i think the tr was balanced without First strike i wont oneshot no one but i want kill im a rogue not DC!!!
tried some premade with bb on node ... results? OMG just for proc heals to enemy yes it work ^^ one 2 or 3 bb splitted on node vs 5 is useless i can't focus nobody just with gloaming cut maybe i need to keep smoke itc on node or gf's hr's cw's melt us like a butter....
now i saw the description of SE and keep the" PIEARCING DMG" where is the piearcing dmg lol HOW CAN I USE one "DAILY" with 30 35K of dmg i tried on node with buff almost 50k.... cmon now all have like 200k+ of hp.... cw's when focus somebody melt ppls like a water....gf's can onerotate EVERYONE LOL,gwf same,Hr with piearcing nerf now only need some time(combat) Hr's trapper can do dot like 20k with 8-9 tic lol cmon....
on node before i was a good shotcaller now just a machine for cb.... I do not know what has passed through your head...
this is not my char Peoples were crying cause build oneshotter they could deal like 250 280k and this is a HAMSTER...
we had just one skill and now we are HAMSTER up.... I hope you do not really do this nonsense to make these absurd changes effective or I think I'll abandon the pvp and so soon the game ...
pls devs tell us a solution or do something for dont lose 90% of tr's pvp'ers...
P.S. i didn't cryed never here and this is a simply consideration ,Just to make you realize what u did....
I honestly can't add anything more to what's already been said. If maybe only to lay it out clearly so somebody who doesn't play a TR will understand -
There are 3 kinds of TR on live. 2 of which people cry about. The one shotting First Strike+Shocking Execution, second the Courage Breaker spammer. The third one, mildly effective in premade/pugmade matches is probably the only kind of competitive TR all things being fair > is Sabo. Before when people say tenacity might/should apply to piercing, they don't mean to double dip it between tenacity DR and crit DR. 75% nerf to one class with one remaining damage power is UNacceptable without something in return.
If you ignore this now you're setting yourself up for a horrible CB meta.
I cut and paste what I already posted on another section of the forum:
Since last update of server preview, changings to piercing damage have been made and tr more than hr has been disadvantaged by these absurd changes. No tr and hr, as well as a lot of sane player of any class, can approve this absurdity. Tr in particular bases his damage on Shocking execution (the only skill that can do an effective burst damage on single target in pvp) that is based on piercing damage and after this patch started make ridiculous damages (from 35k to 55K in general without any debuff and sometimes less than 20k with debuffs such as fey and valhalla). These changings to Tenacity are absurd and not necessary but here if any pug start complain about something just because he isn't able to play his own class his will is satisfied. I tried to play without SE and using other dailies (such as Blood Bath) and in some cases they're good 1vs1 but in a domination are unusable. Try to imagine how bad can be BB used at the beginning on point 2 or just if on point there're more than 1 person. The only way to play pvp in mod 12 for a tr will be just using Courage Breaker all the time. No damage, no kills, like some modules ago, before the introduction of new weapons. Don't know what was the problem with piercing. SE could do an average damage of 120-130k without buff from other players and sometimes reach peaks of 150k or more, but anyway not enought to kill a well equipped player if u consider that all other skills were used just prepare SE hit. The problem are oneshots (thanks to First Strike) and buffs from Itf or Clerics etc. that make SE reach insane damages. Problem is not the base damage of SE that represent the only good way to do damage in pvp for a tr. Also combat hr's damage was good and doesn't need changings (hr's problem are insane healings more than anything else, not damage).
Or they increase SE's physical damage or also tenacity mitigation is insane. Shocking Execution is not enought to kill nodoby without buffs from dcs or gfs and a -40% would mean "good bye damage" too. Considering the insane anount of healings that are in pvp now if u can't onerotate u wouldn't kill nobody. All here complaining about trs and nobody see that gf (that would be tank class) can onerotate everyone and his rotation does much more damage compared with tr's once (CB, smoke, St or Ds and SE...damage comes just from one daily: SE). Anyway tenacity have to reduce piering damage? Ok but SE have to be buffed in physical damage and needs to same burst of the preview server. Must be nerfed insane buff from dc and first strike more than other thinks.
as long as the gfs are able to keep perma shield and 2 shot peeps with griffons grath and a 170k daily we are just aiming to the no sense. we have reached the point where the tanker classes (gfs, ops) are able to dish out the greatest dps and the greatest control.
: Based on extensive tests we found out that 50% armor penetration resistance on Preview and 60-67% Armor pen resistance as it is on LIVE , its not going to cut it. For improving PvP for multiple reasons, such as making more buids viable, or to have PvE players trying out PvP, for the sake of those players to not have to stack high ammounts of RI such in my case 26k power 3k critical strike 23.000 armor pen 3k recovery and to decrease the discrepancy between the Stats themselves and PvE vs PVP, while the PvE altenrative is 38k power 18k crit and 8k arnor penetration Armor penetration resistance should be reverted back to 0% BASICALLY REMOVAL OF IT. Piercing damage should respect tenacity as its been mentioned by you, but huge tweaks arent that needed to fix the issue 1. the combat Hunter Rangerss after further tests it looked to be in decent position with Piercing Blades respects tenacity (since they do not crit they dont get 2x mitigated by critical resistance) and making armor penetration resistance to 0% , they can stack some armor penetration and get back the lost DPS through normal HITs. 2. the Shocking execution from Tricksters could get a base damage increase and that would solve the problem that they have atm on PTR, the SE gets mitigated by Tenacity DR and Critical Resistance for about 64% , this is a huge NERF, to keep the change of piercing damage respecting tenacity, YOU have to increase the base damage of the SE by 10-20-30%. its a WIN: WIN to keep it at a good level. 3. The class that would be in a bad spot in terms of its surviability its the Great Weapon Fighter, most of their DR gets mitigated by RI, but thats not the issue, the problem is that it should be on another layer of mitigation, thats why its surviability is terrible while other classes are performing better: making unstoppable decrease the incoming damage by 20% dmg and sprint by 15% dmg are decent changes: The only rework to the GWF class that needs to be done is not for PVP or PVE , its to make other paragons viable: the only thing that you have to do right now its to take 25% damage bonus from Focused destroyer+Destroyer class feature and 25% damage bonus from the Destroyer Purpose and add it to the base damage of the GWF, this way sentinel and instigator would close the huge gap of dmg that Destroyer is having against them, and the output damage of the Destroyer remains unchanged for both PvE and PvP 4. Thinking of a set value of the Tenacity DR = 40% or 50% also the rename of it and adding as a buff Damage Suppression 5. Critical Resistance could be set to 40% if you have any other solution to it, would be awesome to get one
On a side note: @nickjdowe wrote: "Instigator was never viable". This is false. PvP Instigator was the BiS build back on mod0 until devs changed the capstone, "Student of the sword" and other tree feature (don't remember wich one, TBH). Since then, Instigator was non viable, then, most GWFs swap into Destroyers, came mod2, overbuff of the class by adding the I.V. paragon tree on the class and messed up totally on mod3 with some changes like the "roar" one... and the over nerf on mod4 was class killer until a dev decided to buff the "intimidation" build... which was a bad taste joke.
quite funny how Devs changed GWF from Mod 1-2-3-and overnurf in mod 4.
SAD that classes like GF ARENT nurfed to oblivion like GWF were.
I might sound silly, but thats the class ive started playind in mod 2 , donated HUGE amounts of money into the game for my GWF. throughout mod 2 and 3... and what did i get in the end of the road? Mod 4 hit my face and was about o stop playing the game.
Mode 5 came and i have rerolled to DPS DC that was really fun no play. AND THAT was a SUPPORT class. Been playin it since then till today.
Mod 6 came out and what do we get? INSANE GF's that a re busting in pvp players in 2 hits. TILL NOW.
6 STRAIGHT mods for GF without a change to damage, nor control, nor shield.
Do you guys think its fun to have 2 classes in game that are BIS all around and not being able to pvp cuz of the insane GF's 2 shotting staff?
Why devs messed with my GWF back in mod 2-3-4 till i have to reroll? Why devs AINT making such changes to GF's THROUGH 6 mods straight?
GF is a support class.
What is it now? Best DPS in pvp, Best control in pvp and BEST shield mechanics with 80% cone radius ............ ARE YOU JOKING???
Perspective is everything. Its quite interesting to hear from some TRs on the changes on preview. At the very least piercing damage must be affected by tenacity. As a GWF I had to adjust (feats, wards, HP) to avoid getting 1shotted in PVP. However there are a handful of TRs who can still 1 Shot me from Full health (234k hp). I actually came across a TR who killed me from full health while in full sprint and what I thought was a good distance away.
I to don’t like the idea of nerfs, however I think that the vast majority of people think that piercing damage in its current form was way over the top.
I do agree that there needs to be a way to kill OPs and DCs however. Even a low-level OP can take a while to burst down.
Comments
It could be that they ninja changed live after your testing, but i suspect it is more likely that there was some other uncontrolled variable (deflect, shield, etc) or data input issue.
Iyon the Dark
Been how many mods GF's are rullers of pvp?
SAD that classes like GF ARENT nurfed to oblivion like GWF were.
I might sound silly, but thats the class ive started playind in mod 2 , donated HUGE amounts of money into the game for my GWF. throughout mod 2 and 3... and what did i get in the end of the road? Mod 4 hit my face and was about o stop playing the game.
Mode 5 came and i have rerolled to DPS DC that was really fun no play. AND THAT was a SUPPORT class. Been playin it since then till today.
Mod 6 came out and what do we get? INSANE GF's that a re busting in pvp players in 2 hits. TILL NOW.
6 STRAIGHT mods for GF without a change to damage, nor control, nor shield.
Do you guys think its fun to have 2 classes in game that are BIS all around and not being able to pvp cuz of the insane GF's 2 shotting staff?
Why devs messed with my GWF back in mod 2-3-4 till i have to reroll?
Why devs AINT making such changes to GF's THROUGH 6 mods straight?
GF is a support class.
What is it now? Best DPS in pvp, Best control in pvp and BEST shield mechanics with 80% cone radius ............ ARE YOU JOKING???
We need easy and achievable changes for mod12 that wont ruin PvP. 0% armor penetration resistance is not good. 50% might be to much. I would look into 30-40% and also revert the piercing damage changes for now. And maybe do the crit changes ayroux proposed a few comments back.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
@rgutscheradev
Iyon the Dark
I never know if any suggestion I give is good or not, but I try to be at least somewhat informed before giving feedback. If you are still curious about what I actually do/don't know, please PM me instead of cluttering this thread more than it already is with accusations of ignorance, or pointless insults.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
@rgutscheradev
With that said, Im not convinced that the ideas are good or achievable for mod12. We tried 0% and I think there were to many downsides. CW was OP, the OP wasn't viable and GWF ofc as you all know wasn't either. I know you suggested a fix for the last one, but Im unsure if the devs has the time to change classes. Would be good to know where we stand on that @rgutscheradev.
I also do believe as others has stated, that making DR stats meaningless is bad for PvP with 0% arpen resistance. And some previous dev posts, Indicated that they want to move towards 200:1 and this would be a step in the opposite direction.
I do however feel that Arpen resistance needs to be lowered from 50% to 40%.
I do strongly believe that closing the gear gap between PvP and PvE players is a big issue that needs to be dealt with. But not at any cost and it needs to be carefully considered. Removing tenacity from the gear is a big step towards that but not enough.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
you can go 180% control resistance and not only that also if you invest on deflection you get another 60% with the pot deflection severity and you have 240% total control resistance when you deflect.
IF you are refering to controls general is wrong you cant add diminishing returns because a rogue has
courage breaker which happens to be debuff so you cant resist it, or the micro dazes + perma roots from hunter those have nothing to do with control resistances.
or pvp /pve gear that drops with random stat distribution adding up to the same item level...certainly would make loot drops much more interesting again
possibly even the ability to randomly reroll stats as a group .;.with a currency sink to be determined
On live when the enemy build hiself deflection-halfling- and adds in top of that an elven battle is able:
TO walk in a smoke bomb without feel a slow effect. ( courage breaker i remind is a debuff).
they are walking in icy terrain without feel the slow effect and also when they freeze its duration is a split second.
shatered from opressor? another split second.
from Control wizard point of view: i would waste a respec thinking to be an opressor in pvp with the above facts.
DO the mistake and add diminishing returns to control and let some classes with 0 investment in control stat to perma root-micro daze( ranger trapper) or perma slows( rogue) be the kings.
> Reducing self-healing while keeping dc/op ability To make The team survive more, should be the key. Less self-healing means groups need a dc/op To survive more. At The same time dcs/ops would become less immortal due To The reduced effect of their heals on self. So a team with no dc/op will be able to actually use The extra dps. Right now, a team with dc/op vs a full dps team, has the upper hand. Must balance in my opinion. Reduce self heal a lot, keep outgoing heals relevant while solving immortal teams issues/immortal dcs-ops/stacked dcs and ops in one team
^^ this is a good idea. Consider increasing healing depression and/or nerfing endless consumption if it is doable for mod 12.
Iyon the Dark
PVP is the game's end game so if you do not have the equipment you should not complain if you are killed by a BIS player in any case.
Did u test TR n PTR recently? Because right now even a BIS TR + Tenser hardly kill someone even with the rotations CB +Tenser+ BB, (i'm talking about BIS vs BIS player who actually play in PVP not pugs or people with the wrong build who complains of dying and wants to nerf everyone they can't kill) and during premade can't be compettive at all since he can't focus DPS. We heve no encounter for dealing serious damage and we always need 2 encounter just for not die (ITC and Shadow strike) so what's remains? CB and BB +at-will is simply not enough but more important the damage will be spread if there is more the 1 player around so will be useless.
BIS TR can't oneshot another BIS player in normal condition (first strike could be nerfed but it is the only way with which low gear TR can kill someone and have some fun, the alternatve is PERMACB for the happiness of everyone, but first srike could be nerfed) and SE is largely dodgeable. Right now we lost more then 60% damage from SE so we are forced to not use our best skill and will be unkillable class like cleric and paladins which will be unkillable without TR SE piercing damage or HR piercing + the buff of cleric and GF (there are OP with more then 300k HP and alot of mitigations and instant healing try to think that!)
Now as the live server now, the damage to pvp classes at high levels (good players with the right build) is correct for the amount of healing that is there.
Also, it is not true that HR (or GF) damage is so absurd, once understood how to fight it, is predictable, all dodgeable and all good players in all classes can have a fair fight. The real problem of HR Combat with the absurd healing NOT the damage!
Moreover in conclusion if we start nerfing damage and this changes goes online we will return to having PVPs that will end with zero kill on both sides, more like a marathon to catch the nodes,this is NOT PVP ... you have already seen in module 7-8-9-10 until the advent of relic weapons. This is the way to LOSE other players not to get them back (like in mod 7-8-9-10).
Good Game
DragonSteel
this is a HAMSTER .... i tried a lot of combo 1 vs 1 and i cant kill no one at this moment.... just gf's and some hr's trapper but no combat cause a lot of incoming healing and my little stupid dmg can just scratch their back....
tried a lot of combo with exe,scoundrel,sabo... arpen or not, but our enchounter cant deal dmg LOL ... im a tr bis just without legendary mount( soo almost) and , before, without tenser buff I have had many difficulties for kill a lot of classes(im sabo not exe first striker) cause incoming heal from feat's (HR'S),lion, whell, bonuses insignas.... i think the tr was balanced without First strike i wont oneshot no one but i want kill im a rogue not DC!!!
tried some premade with bb on node ... results? OMG just for proc heals to enemy yes it work ^^ one 2 or 3 bb splitted on node vs 5 is useless i can't focus nobody just with gloaming cut maybe i need to keep smoke itc on node or gf's hr's cw's melt us like a butter....
now i saw the description of SE and keep the" PIEARCING DMG" where is the piearcing dmg lol HOW CAN I USE one "DAILY" with 30 35K of dmg i tried on node with buff almost 50k.... cmon now all have like 200k+ of hp.... cw's when focus somebody melt ppls like a water....gf's can onerotate EVERYONE LOL,gwf same,Hr with piearcing nerf now only need some time(combat) Hr's trapper can do dot like 20k with 8-9 tic lol cmon....
on node before i was a good shotcaller now just a machine for cb.... I do not know what has passed through your head...
this is not my char Peoples were crying cause build oneshotter they could deal like 250 280k and this is a HAMSTER...
we had just one skill and now we are HAMSTER up.... I hope you do not really do this nonsense to make these absurd changes effective or I think I'll abandon the pvp and so soon the game ...
pls devs tell us a solution or do something for dont lose 90% of tr's pvp'ers...
P.S. i didn't cryed never here and this is a simply consideration ,Just to make you realize what u did....
There are 3 kinds of TR on live. 2 of which people cry about. The one shotting First Strike+Shocking Execution, second the Courage Breaker spammer. The third one, mildly effective in premade/pugmade matches is probably the only kind of competitive TR all things being fair > is Sabo. Before when people say tenacity might/should apply to piercing, they don't mean to double dip it between tenacity DR and crit DR. 75% nerf to one class with one remaining damage power is UNacceptable without something in return.
If you ignore this now you're setting yourself up for a horrible CB meta.
Since last update of server preview, changings to piercing damage have been made and tr more than hr
has been disadvantaged by these absurd changes.
No tr and hr, as well as a lot of sane player of any class, can approve this absurdity.
Tr in particular bases his damage on Shocking execution (the only skill that can do an effective burst
damage on single target in pvp) that is based on piercing damage and after this patch started make
ridiculous damages (from 35k to 55K in general without any debuff and sometimes less than 20k with debuffs
such as fey and valhalla). These changings to Tenacity are absurd and not necessary but here if any pug start complain about something just because he isn't able to play his own class his will is satisfied.
I tried to play without SE and using other dailies (such as Blood Bath) and in some cases they're good 1vs1 but in a domination are unusable. Try to imagine how bad can be BB used at the beginning on point 2 or just if on point there're more than 1 person. The only way to play pvp in mod 12 for a tr will be just using Courage Breaker all the time. No damage, no kills, like some modules ago, before the introduction of new weapons.
Don't know what was the problem with piercing. SE could do an average damage of 120-130k without buff from other players and sometimes reach peaks of 150k or more, but anyway not enought to kill a well equipped player if u consider that all other skills were used just prepare SE hit. The problem are oneshots (thanks to First Strike) and buffs from Itf or Clerics etc. that make SE reach insane damages. Problem is not the base damage of SE that represent the only good way to do damage in pvp for a tr.
Also combat hr's damage was good and doesn't need changings (hr's problem are insane healings more than anything else, not damage).
Or they increase SE's physical damage or also tenacity mitigation is insane. Shocking Execution is not enought to kill nodoby without buffs from dcs or gfs and a -40% would mean "good bye damage" too. Considering the insane anount of healings that are in pvp now if u can't onerotate u wouldn't kill nobody. All here complaining about trs and nobody see that gf (that would be tank class) can onerotate everyone and his rotation does much more damage compared with tr's once (CB, smoke, St or Ds and SE...damage comes just from one daily: SE).
Anyway tenacity have to reduce piering damage? Ok but SE have to be buffed in physical damage and needs to same burst of the preview server. Must be nerfed insane buff from dc and first strike more than other thinks.
we have reached the point where the tanker classes (gfs, ops) are able to dish out the greatest dps and the greatest control.
good job.
I to don’t like the idea of nerfs, however I think that the vast majority of people think that piercing damage in its current form was way over the top.
I do agree that there needs to be a way to kill OPs and DCs however. Even a low-level OP can take a while to burst down.