I played PVP for years. I did not have to pay to win. You have no idea what you are talking about, and are just showing the toxic behavior that killed PVP.
Well of the two of us, I'm not the one handing out misinformation. No PM remembering PVPer enjoys the pug stomp. No end game SH guild enjoyed the grind. Noone who has played PVP continuously since open beta agrees with your assessment. You can say "you have no idea what you're talking about" but you're simply incorrect m8. There is no toxicity here, only trying to correct obvious mistakes in your assessment of the situation.
The reference you are "quoting" from is when you suggested anyone who Q's for PVP that is 4K IL should be banned from the game. I found it laughable and responded in kind to your obvious troll. I'm not angry, I just am a little amazed that your vitriol blinds you to obvious truths. PVPers want back a more balanced and fun PVP. We have offered up ourselves and our SHs as sacrifice. We have come up with creative solutions to present to the devs. We have organized in houses against ourselves despite dealing with a Q system that tries to not match us against each other. We are even now coming up with another source of potentially fun balanced PVP.
You're too biased mate, and I'm afraid there is no extrinsic cure for that. It's self inflicted, but nevertheless I still think MJs ideas or anyone's who can come up with a more viable solution is aces in my book.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Ya, I am biased. But, so are you. You are failing to accept ANY responsibility for the state of PVP. We all know better.
The only responsibility I have is playing the game the way the devs designed it. I would also add that this seems to be a personal issue with me, I have no personal issue with you besides the posts you make which give a lopsided view. You are seeing things only from your perspective. I try to offer another perspective and you bat it away. I realize what it's like to pug into a match and watch a single BIS PVPer, especially of an OP class variety, wreck an entire team (often still losing the match but wracking up a crazy k/d ratio.
I am well aware of the state of PVP, of the imbalance, and how it got here. It was because too much was invested into gear, SH boons, and other miscellaneous items it left people hating the grind to become competitive so they left. Thus we're left with low geared players and BIS players and a terrible matchmaking system. It's literally that simple.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Well PVP players do deserve some blame for the current state the game is in. Although I will say people were much more toxic back then and participated in much worse behaviours. But can you really introduce a bad system and broken mechanics and not expect an average gaming population to not succumb. This happens in almost every game except in other games, the developers police better.
Just one thing I would like to add just in case they do look at this topic. If at some point the Devs do decide to put some effort into PVP . Please try to remember to seperate the power we have so that any future adjustments needed only effects either PVP or PVE only rather than both. They have shown in the past that this is possible but have often caused more harm than good with the one size fits all approach. Each side should have its own balance moving forward. Because if they are not willing to do that then I hope that they just do nothing.
You can easily take off some of your gear and artifacts when you are in a match against lowbies. That would make a more fair fight. Doubt anyone thought of that though.
I do on a daily basis, I run my 2.6K il enchantless SW through Domination and my 3.1K IL GWF with no weapon enchants and like maybe 3 other enchants. So do many of our players.
I am sick of the dev bashing. There is a complete lack of personal responsibility going on here. The devs did not do this. They only gave you what you wanted, except drains. We all hate those. Overgearing to the point of insanity and racing to rank 20 SH were personal choices, as were running broken troll-mades and calling everybody nubs, scrubs and vulgar names. The devs did not do that.
You can be as sick as you want of "dev bashing", there is of course a lack of personal responsibility as we did not want SH, noone wanted SH. You are extraordinarily assumptive with these types of statements and 100% wrong. Who in their right mind loves running SH HEs over and over ad nauseum? These statements are literally laughable.
As far as calling everyone nubs, scrubs, and vlugar names you are again assuming that every BIS player does that to every lower IL player. This is also hugely wrong. There are some players who call everyone "vulgar" names in PVP as there are in PVE (and I've heard worse in PVE if you make mistakes in Demo or other end game Dungeons). It's also individual. If a person plays PVP and won't stand on a node to fight, they are indeed a "nub" and a "scrub" as they've just lost the match for you. However, they can improve by moving forward 5 feet and contesting in which case they've upgraded to team mate.
Now, let's see the Devs who, by the way do make decisions on how to change imbalances in the game (it's quite literally their job that they get paid to do), take some responsibility for continuously ignoring the PVP community when they ask for positive changes to PVP.
Lastly, your tendency to disdain end game PVP players and guilds has been ongoing for mods and mods. You probably missed the glory days of PVP and never saw the history of how it came to this abysmal state so I'll simply assume a fair amount of ignorance on your part. Seeing this from the outside rather than someone who watched it fall apart from the inside will give you a different, incorrect perspective. It's too bad but likely it's all you'll be able to see looking in from the outside at this point.
Meh. Virtually every competitive game on the planet organizes and finds ways to work around dev inactivity. Games only get to the point that Neverwinter PvP is in when the players give up. NW PvP is so dead that it's just wallowing in its own toxic death spiral.
I do find it comical that everyone seems to be leaning towards player responsibility for the state of the game. If I literally had the reigns, this would already be taken care of. PVP would be as balanced as possible. It would be an overhaul back to a more vanilla version of PVP as I've already asked for. This is not player responsibility. It's simply silly to say so.
That said, I'm glad Mjolnir and others are still trying to pique dev interest in changes that can breathe fresh air into PVP. I'm hoping at some point when the devs have time/resources they will look this way and make some real, tangible changes to PVP to make it viable again.
In Blacklight we had multiple (player sponsored) $1000 tournaments for years in spite of the devs not releasing content for 18+ months. So when you try to blame it on the devs it's kind of laughable. Stuff like that actually convinced the devs for that game to buy the IP when Zombie Studios (the original studio developing it) had to close down. Sure, the game is dead beyond belief now but players kept it going for 3+ years.
Neverwinter PvP doesn't have anything like that. It's just a footnote in an MMO and the general consensus is that it's a circlejerk for a bunch of toxic HAMSTER.
0
dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
"I can live with the ten remaining PVPers leave the game and hundred others flooding the queues. Honestly, this "I invested so much" is a non-issue. PVP is dead. If you like to be the king of a wasteland, fine. But that solves nothing."
Gotta agree. PvP is unsalvagable short of complete wipe and reset which will erase the small disgusting current population.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
You can easily take off some of your gear and artifacts when you are in a match against lowbies. That would make a more fair fight. Doubt anyone thought of that though.
I do on a daily basis, I run my 2.6K il enchantless SW through Domination and my 3.1K IL GWF with no weapon enchants and like maybe 3 other enchants. So do many of our players.
I am sick of the dev bashing. There is a complete lack of personal responsibility going on here. The devs did not do this. They only gave you what you wanted, except drains. We all hate those. Overgearing to the point of insanity and racing to rank 20 SH were personal choices, as were running broken troll-mades and calling everybody nubs, scrubs and vulgar names. The devs did not do that.
You can be as sick as you want of "dev bashing", there is of course a lack of personal responsibility as we did not want SH, noone wanted SH. You are extraordinarily assumptive with these types of statements and 100% wrong. Who in their right mind loves running SH HEs over and over ad nauseum? These statements are literally laughable.
As far as calling everyone nubs, scrubs, and vlugar names you are again assuming that every BIS player does that to every lower IL player. This is also hugely wrong. There are some players who call everyone "vulgar" names in PVP as there are in PVE (and I've heard worse in PVE if you make mistakes in Demo or other end game Dungeons). It's also individual. If a person plays PVP and won't stand on a node to fight, they are indeed a "nub" and a "scrub" as they've just lost the match for you. However, they can improve by moving forward 5 feet and contesting in which case they've upgraded to team mate.
Now, let's see the Devs who, by the way do make decisions on how to change imbalances in the game (it's quite literally their job that they get paid to do), take some responsibility for continuously ignoring the PVP community when they ask for positive changes to PVP.
Lastly, your tendency to disdain end game PVP players and guilds has been ongoing for mods and mods. You probably missed the glory days of PVP and never saw the history of how it came to this abysmal state so I'll simply assume a fair amount of ignorance on your part. Seeing this from the outside rather than someone who watched it fall apart from the inside will give you a different, incorrect perspective. It's too bad but likely it's all you'll be able to see looking in from the outside at this point.
Meh. Virtually every competitive game on the planet organizes and finds ways to work around dev inactivity. Games only get to the point that Neverwinter PvP is in when the players give up. NW PvP is so dead that it's just wallowing in its own toxic death spiral.
I do find it comical that everyone seems to be leaning towards player responsibility for the state of the game. If I literally had the reigns, this would already be taken care of. PVP would be as balanced as possible. It would be an overhaul back to a more vanilla version of PVP as I've already asked for. This is not player responsibility. It's simply silly to say so.
That said, I'm glad Mjolnir and others are still trying to pique dev interest in changes that can breathe fresh air into PVP. I'm hoping at some point when the devs have time/resources they will look this way and make some real, tangible changes to PVP to make it viable again.
In Blacklight we had multiple (player sponsored) $1000 tournaments for years in spite of the devs not releasing content for 18+ months. So when you try to blame it on the devs it's kind of laughable. Stuff like that actually convinced the devs for that game to buy the IP when Zombie Studios (the original studio developing it) had to close down. Sure, the game is dead beyond belief now but players kept it going for 3+ years.
Neverwinter PvP doesn't have anything like that. It's just a footnote in an MMO and the general consensus is that it's a circlejerk for a bunch of toxic HAMSTER.
lol, it's PVPers fault for not throwing down $1000 dollar tournaments to correct the imbalance the devs/management team caused... LMAO. Wow dude, just wow.
How about you "sponsor" the thousand and we'll put together a tournament
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
0
silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
Framework is the fault of the devs, actions the fault of the players.
However, if the framework is faulty, you cant really think its all on the players.
Neither can you crush the devs for all the actions of the players.. like GG, no honest at all reason for high end jerks to destory the only real entry level pvp for years.. but they did.
I think there is enough blame to go around to what actually destroyed pvp.. to not castigate one side completely.
You can easily take off some of your gear and artifacts when you are in a match against lowbies. That would make a more fair fight. Doubt anyone thought of that though.
I do on a daily basis, I run my 2.6K il enchantless SW through Domination and my 3.1K IL GWF with no weapon enchants and like maybe 3 other enchants. So do many of our players.
I am sick of the dev bashing. There is a complete lack of personal responsibility going on here. The devs did not do this. They only gave you what you wanted, except drains. We all hate those. Overgearing to the point of insanity and racing to rank 20 SH were personal choices, as were running broken troll-mades and calling everybody nubs, scrubs and vulgar names. The devs did not do that.
You can be as sick as you want of "dev bashing", there is of course a lack of personal responsibility as we did not want SH, noone wanted SH. You are extraordinarily assumptive with these types of statements and 100% wrong. Who in their right mind loves running SH HEs over and over ad nauseum? These statements are literally laughable.
As far as calling everyone nubs, scrubs, and vlugar names you are again assuming that every BIS player does that to every lower IL player. This is also hugely wrong. There are some players who call everyone "vulgar" names in PVP as there are in PVE (and I've heard worse in PVE if you make mistakes in Demo or other end game Dungeons). It's also individual. If a person plays PVP and won't stand on a node to fight, they are indeed a "nub" and a "scrub" as they've just lost the match for you. However, they can improve by moving forward 5 feet and contesting in which case they've upgraded to team mate.
Now, let's see the Devs who, by the way do make decisions on how to change imbalances in the game (it's quite literally their job that they get paid to do), take some responsibility for continuously ignoring the PVP community when they ask for positive changes to PVP.
Lastly, your tendency to disdain end game PVP players and guilds has been ongoing for mods and mods. You probably missed the glory days of PVP and never saw the history of how it came to this abysmal state so I'll simply assume a fair amount of ignorance on your part. Seeing this from the outside rather than someone who watched it fall apart from the inside will give you a different, incorrect perspective. It's too bad but likely it's all you'll be able to see looking in from the outside at this point.
Meh. Virtually every competitive game on the planet organizes and finds ways to work around dev inactivity. Games only get to the point that Neverwinter PvP is in when the players give up. NW PvP is so dead that it's just wallowing in its own toxic death spiral.
I do find it comical that everyone seems to be leaning towards player responsibility for the state of the game. If I literally had the reigns, this would already be taken care of. PVP would be as balanced as possible. It would be an overhaul back to a more vanilla version of PVP as I've already asked for. This is not player responsibility. It's simply silly to say so.
That said, I'm glad Mjolnir and others are still trying to pique dev interest in changes that can breathe fresh air into PVP. I'm hoping at some point when the devs have time/resources they will look this way and make some real, tangible changes to PVP to make it viable again.
In Blacklight we had multiple (player sponsored) $1000 tournaments for years in spite of the devs not releasing content for 18+ months. So when you try to blame it on the devs it's kind of laughable. Stuff like that actually convinced the devs for that game to buy the IP when Zombie Studios (the original studio developing it) had to close down. Sure, the game is dead beyond belief now but players kept it going for 3+ years.
Neverwinter PvP doesn't have anything like that. It's just a footnote in an MMO and the general consensus is that it's a circlejerk for a bunch of toxic HAMSTER.
lol, it's PVPers fault for not throwing down $1000 dollar tournaments to correct the imbalance the devs/management team caused... LMAO. Wow dude, just wow.
How about you "sponsor" the thousand and we'll put together a tournament
BLR had multiple organizers setting up scrims, pugs, and tournaments. Eventually PWE (mostly zen and mice), the devs (mostly camo codes), and community members (cash, video cards etc.) stepped in an started providing prizes because of that. You have to give the people a reason to bother supporting tournaments and someone will step up. Neverwinter PvP is stuck in the toxic pug stage of things and seems to have never progressed past it.
You can easily take off some of your gear and artifacts when you are in a match against lowbies. That would make a more fair fight. Doubt anyone thought of that though.
I do on a daily basis, I run my 2.6K il enchantless SW through Domination and my 3.1K IL GWF with no weapon enchants and like maybe 3 other enchants. So do many of our players.
I am sick of the dev bashing. There is a complete lack of personal responsibility going on here. The devs did not do this. They only gave you what you wanted, except drains. We all hate those. Overgearing to the point of insanity and racing to rank 20 SH were personal choices, as were running broken troll-mades and calling everybody nubs, scrubs and vulgar names. The devs did not do that.
You can be as sick as you want of "dev bashing", there is of course a lack of personal responsibility as we did not want SH, noone wanted SH. You are extraordinarily assumptive with these types of statements and 100% wrong. Who in their right mind loves running SH HEs over and over ad nauseum? These statements are literally laughable.
As far as calling everyone nubs, scrubs, and vlugar names you are again assuming that every BIS player does that to every lower IL player. This is also hugely wrong. There are some players who call everyone "vulgar" names in PVP as there are in PVE (and I've heard worse in PVE if you make mistakes in Demo or other end game Dungeons). It's also individual. If a person plays PVP and won't stand on a node to fight, they are indeed a "nub" and a "scrub" as they've just lost the match for you. However, they can improve by moving forward 5 feet and contesting in which case they've upgraded to team mate.
Now, let's see the Devs who, by the way do make decisions on how to change imbalances in the game (it's quite literally their job that they get paid to do), take some responsibility for continuously ignoring the PVP community when they ask for positive changes to PVP.
Lastly, your tendency to disdain end game PVP players and guilds has been ongoing for mods and mods. You probably missed the glory days of PVP and never saw the history of how it came to this abysmal state so I'll simply assume a fair amount of ignorance on your part. Seeing this from the outside rather than someone who watched it fall apart from the inside will give you a different, incorrect perspective. It's too bad but likely it's all you'll be able to see looking in from the outside at this point.
Meh. Virtually every competitive game on the planet organizes and finds ways to work around dev inactivity. Games only get to the point that Neverwinter PvP is in when the players give up. NW PvP is so dead that it's just wallowing in its own toxic death spiral.
I do find it comical that everyone seems to be leaning towards player responsibility for the state of the game. If I literally had the reigns, this would already be taken care of. PVP would be as balanced as possible. It would be an overhaul back to a more vanilla version of PVP as I've already asked for. This is not player responsibility. It's simply silly to say so.
That said, I'm glad Mjolnir and others are still trying to pique dev interest in changes that can breathe fresh air into PVP. I'm hoping at some point when the devs have time/resources they will look this way and make some real, tangible changes to PVP to make it viable again.
In Blacklight we had multiple (player sponsored) $1000 tournaments for years in spite of the devs not releasing content for 18+ months. So when you try to blame it on the devs it's kind of laughable. Stuff like that actually convinced the devs for that game to buy the IP when Zombie Studios (the original studio developing it) had to close down. Sure, the game is dead beyond belief now but players kept it going for 3+ years.
Neverwinter PvP doesn't have anything like that. It's just a footnote in an MMO and the general consensus is that it's a circlejerk for a bunch of toxic HAMSTER.
lol, it's PVPers fault for not throwing down $1000 dollar tournaments to correct the imbalance the devs/management team caused... LMAO. Wow dude, just wow.
How about you "sponsor" the thousand and we'll put together a tournament
BLR had multiple organizers setting up scrims, pugs, and tournaments. Eventually PWE (mostly zen and mice), the devs (mostly camo codes), and community members (cash, video cards etc.) stepped in an started providing prizes because of that. You have to give the people a reason to bother supporting tournaments and someone will step up. Neverwinter PvP is stuck in the toxic pug stage of things and seems to have never progressed past it.
Again, your description is completely inaccurate. We aren't stuck in the pug stage because we never progressed past it. PVP used to be very good and competitive until it was coded out of existence by the continual imbalance and power leaps (as opposed to power creep). Mod 0-3 were good, a few issues needed fixing for balancing but overall any player could go into PVP with a decent chance of winning a given match. Premades fought Premades and there was more camaraderie.
PVE and PVP weren't separated via tenacity and you could do both. The best gear for PVP came from PVE so they were tied together, everyone did both and there was much less toxicity. Since then whoever makes the decisions for NW from PWE/Cryptic began making gear the complete focus of the game. Thus the SH boons, gear that was hard to get and all the other imbalance came about. It's a pretty easy lineage to trace.
There used to be a real PVP community that got together to do PMs and had fun running dungeons together after. It was entirely the evolution of the game that caused PVP to become what it is today.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
I think the concept sounds fine, and would make NW a great PvP game. But I'm not sure I'm an optimist with regards to seeing it implemented: Lots of people would whine about their 'investment' and the financing model for NW is very different than WoW, so they would need a way to monetize this idea to make it worth their while.
The other major drawback is the lack of customization, but I think you could get around that with a simple trick: Rather than entirely class-specific stat loadouts, you could get only the stats on your PvP gear, and they could design a few different sets to allow for some stat diversity within specific constraints for each class. That would also give something to grind for. It would give similar balancing and tuning opportunities, but also allow for some more customization of builds for players, while leaving some room for monetization.
Macjae,
Been a while mate. Yes, you DO lose some build diversity... Again I would ask though... WOW has a MUCH MUCH bigger/healthier PVP scene than NW. They opted for loss of build diversity for this, so I would wonder why...
I think keeping it simple. "Builds" can come from SPEC, not from gear. That way they can adjust all the trees with minor changes to balance PVP - without worrying too much about how stats create bugs and HAMSTER... Perfect example is avalanche boon. How much did that give us woes for a long time... Or talk about items? Remember Emblem in mod 2? 6mil for a green and if you didn't have 1, GTFO out of PVP.
I get what you are saying about having some gear options. Frankly, that's extra work for not much payoff. How much are a few hundred stats REALLY giving you diversity? If it were thousands... well yeah, having ARP vs Power vs Crit or w.e might make a tiny difference. At this point, id rather just have them make it 100% standardized and builds are what vary via your feats.
You probably missed the glory days of PVP and never saw the history of how it came to this abysmal state so I'll simply assume a fair amount of ignorance on your part. Seeing this from the outside rather than someone who watched it fall apart from the inside will give you a different, incorrect perspective. It's too bad but likely it's all you'll be able to see looking in from the outside at this point.
I do find it comical that everyone seems to be leaning towards player responsibility for the state of the game. If I literally had the reigns, this would already be taken care of. PVP would be as balanced as possible. It would be an overhaul back to a more vanilla version of PVP as I've already asked for. This is not player responsibility. It's simply silly to say so.
That said, I'm glad Mjolnir and others are still trying to pique dev interest in changes that can breathe fresh air into PVP. I'm hoping at some point when the devs have time/resources they will look this way and make some real, tangible changes to PVP to make it viable again.
We aren't stuck in the pug stage because we never progressed past it. PVP used to be very good and competitive until it was coded out of existence by the continual imbalance and power leaps (as opposed to power creep). Mod 0-3 were good, a few issues needed fixing for balancing but overall any player could go into PVP with a decent chance of winning a given match. Premades fought Premades and there was more camaraderie.
PVE and PVP weren't separated via tenacity and you could do both. The best gear for PVP came from PVE so they were tied together, everyone did both and there was much less toxicity. Since then whoever makes the decisions for NW from PWE/Cryptic began making gear the complete focus of the game. Thus the SH boons, gear that was hard to get and all the other imbalance came about. It's a pretty easy lineage to trace.
There used to be a real PVP community that got together to do PMs and had fun running dungeons together after. It was entirely the evolution of the game that caused PVP to become what it is today.
This exactly!!!! Thanks Tyrion. Some of us "Old Timers" remember the TRUE glory days when PVP was this games bread and butter! I used to be "chums" with a DEV who said the Russian server brought in a "majority" of the revenue and he specifically told me that it was the PVPers who would buy most of the stuff on that server. So PVP was largely responsible for FINANCING this game....
Up until ~ module 3 PVP was strong in this game. Gear gap was "mild" but it wasn't large enough to make a big difference. Around mod 4 I would say is the "dark days" where they started with artifact gear and it only got worse from there.
The guys who wanted competition... well it slowly died out... PUG stomps became the norm and generally speaking, the players truly seeking competition left the game. I know first hand there ARE still BIS PVPers that are here for true competition and end up resorting to using the PTR or setting up inhouses to do this. I wanted to clarify incase anyone thinks that "all BIS PVPERS want is to PUG stomp" because frankly its not true. Youll notice many of the people advocating for "normalized PVP" are players who ARE BIS, who are sick of the current state of PVP
We need to go "back" to the days PRE-modules... Back when the "gear gap" between a BIS player and an "average" player was a mere few hundred stat points... Heck, back then a good PVP er would use rank 7-8s and a Greater enchant against Rank 10s and a Perf. The gear gap? Minimal.... Today you try that "equivalent" and it adds up to thousands if not tens of thousands of stats...
Again I say... "If WOW did it, maybe there is a reason" and MAYBE.... just MAYBE, Neverwinter would benefit from a similar PVP system to WOW.
if "The MMO Giant" has moved to this, with its MILLIONS of players (meaning they COULD support a healthy gear gap considering population) my GUESS is they have data to suggest that more people prefer this type of system... otherwise why else would they do it?
My guess is they are still the same morons who lost millions of subscribers because they alienated their core audience in pursue of those sweet casuals $. Yes let's learn more from activision. I am not even against balancing pvp somewhat, but this argument is ridiculous to me, because there are already way too many clones of this game, nobody should copy all wow does just cause they still have subs who can't quit bad habits, if wow came out later it wouldn't even have anywhere near the same status.
The reason neverwinter stood out to me is because the devs here seemed to mix ease of acess with hardcore elements well, at least sometimes. I have experienced this system of giving everyone the same stats during pvp, in different mmos and it just made the games for me unbearably boring, because it removes possibilities and motivation to build and invest into your character. While it's obviously extreme here, to send 1,6k against 4k, if, for example, you instead win with a team of 2k against a team of 3k, it feels great and means skill can show aswell.
You can easily take off some of your gear and artifacts when you are in a match against lowbies. That would make a more fair fight. Doubt anyone thought of that though.
I do on a daily basis, I run my 2.6K il enchantless SW through Domination and my 3.1K IL GWF with no weapon enchants and like maybe 3 other enchants. So do many of our players.
I am sick of the dev bashing. There is a complete lack of personal responsibility going on here. The devs did not do this. They only gave you what you wanted, except drains. We all hate those. Overgearing to the point of insanity and racing to rank 20 SH were personal choices, as were running broken troll-mades and calling everybody nubs, scrubs and vulgar names. The devs did not do that.
You can be as sick as you want of "dev bashing", there is of course a lack of personal responsibility as we did not want SH, noone wanted SH. You are extraordinarily assumptive with these types of statements and 100% wrong. Who in their right mind loves running SH HEs over and over ad nauseum? These statements are literally laughable.
As far as calling everyone nubs, scrubs, and vlugar names you are again assuming that every BIS player does that to every lower IL player. This is also hugely wrong. There are some players who call everyone "vulgar" names in PVP as there are in PVE (and I've heard worse in PVE if you make mistakes in Demo or other end game Dungeons). It's also individual. If a person plays PVP and won't stand on a node to fight, they are indeed a "nub" and a "scrub" as they've just lost the match for you. However, they can improve by moving forward 5 feet and contesting in which case they've upgraded to team mate.
Now, let's see the Devs who, by the way do make decisions on how to change imbalances in the game (it's quite literally their job that they get paid to do), take some responsibility for continuously ignoring the PVP community when they ask for positive changes to PVP.
Lastly, your tendency to disdain end game PVP players and guilds has been ongoing for mods and mods. You probably missed the glory days of PVP and never saw the history of how it came to this abysmal state so I'll simply assume a fair amount of ignorance on your part. Seeing this from the outside rather than someone who watched it fall apart from the inside will give you a different, incorrect perspective. It's too bad but likely it's all you'll be able to see looking in from the outside at this point.
Meh. Virtually every competitive game on the planet organizes and finds ways to work around dev inactivity. Games only get to the point that Neverwinter PvP is in when the players give up. NW PvP is so dead that it's just wallowing in its own toxic death spiral.
I do find it comical that everyone seems to be leaning towards player responsibility for the state of the game. If I literally had the reigns, this would already be taken care of. PVP would be as balanced as possible. It would be an overhaul back to a more vanilla version of PVP as I've already asked for. This is not player responsibility. It's simply silly to say so.
That said, I'm glad Mjolnir and others are still trying to pique dev interest in changes that can breathe fresh air into PVP. I'm hoping at some point when the devs have time/resources they will look this way and make some real, tangible changes to PVP to make it viable again.
In Blacklight we had multiple (player sponsored) $1000 tournaments for years in spite of the devs not releasing content for 18+ months. So when you try to blame it on the devs it's kind of laughable. Stuff like that actually convinced the devs for that game to buy the IP when Zombie Studios (the original studio developing it) had to close down. Sure, the game is dead beyond belief now but players kept it going for 3+ years.
Neverwinter PvP doesn't have anything like that. It's just a footnote in an MMO and the general consensus is that it's a circlejerk for a bunch of toxic HAMSTER.
lol, it's PVPers fault for not throwing down $1000 dollar tournaments to correct the imbalance the devs/management team caused... LMAO. Wow dude, just wow.
How about you "sponsor" the thousand and we'll put together a tournament
BLR had multiple organizers setting up scrims, pugs, and tournaments. Eventually PWE (mostly zen and mice), the devs (mostly camo codes), and community members (cash, video cards etc.) stepped in an started providing prizes because of that. You have to give the people a reason to bother supporting tournaments and someone will step up. Neverwinter PvP is stuck in the toxic pug stage of things and seems to have never progressed past it.
Again, your description is completely inaccurate. We aren't stuck in the pug stage because we never progressed past it. PVP used to be very good and competitive until it was coded out of existence by the continual imbalance and power leaps (as opposed to power creep). Mod 0-3 were good, a few issues needed fixing for balancing but overall any player could go into PVP with a decent chance of winning a given match. Premades fought Premades and there was more camaraderie.
PVE and PVP weren't separated via tenacity and you could do both. The best gear for PVP came from PVE so they were tied together, everyone did both and there was much less toxicity. Since then whoever makes the decisions for NW from PWE/Cryptic began making gear the complete focus of the game. Thus the SH boons, gear that was hard to get and all the other imbalance came about. It's a pretty easy lineage to trace.
There used to be a real PVP community that got together to do PMs and had fun running dungeons together after. It was entirely the evolution of the game that caused PVP to become what it is today.
Competitive communities work around imbalance. BLR's leagues tested rulesets every time there was a patch that significantly affected balance. If you can't take the time to do that I don't really understand why you'd be opposed to normalizing stats for PvP because you're apparently not up attempting to fix it yourselves.
I can't believe anyone would blame players of a game for taking advantage of faulty systems within it to get an advantage over others. That kind of logic just blows my mind.
Most people that play any game will take the path of least resistance to get an advantage. This includes glitches, broken cheese builds in PVP and broken powers. It's the job of a game developer to deliver balance and a fair playing environment.
Cryptic has delivered a minimal amount of this in PVP, and it's obvious this is always the last on the list for them when it comes to changes. When they change powers for PvE purposes this always has a ripple effect in PVP. Of course these things are not even considered when class balance passes come (for example hr piercing damage in pvp) or outright ignored if it even has the slightest adverse impact on their PvE intentions.
A good way to fix imbalances would be to have powers and feats behave differently in PvE than pvp, but they just don't want to spend the time to do this. Neglect on the part of the developer as always is the prime offender. But as long as people keep giving them money and buying into the broken system (gotta have that lion man!!!) Nothing will change.
You can easily take off some of your gear and artifacts when you are in a match against lowbies. That would make a more fair fight. Doubt anyone thought of that though.
I do on a daily basis, I run my 2.6K il enchantless SW through Domination and my 3.1K IL GWF with no weapon enchants and like maybe 3 other enchants. So do many of our players.
I am sick of the dev bashing. There is a complete lack of personal responsibility going on here. The devs did not do this. They only gave you what you wanted, except drains. We all hate those. Overgearing to the point of insanity and racing to rank 20 SH were personal choices, as were running broken troll-mades and calling everybody nubs, scrubs and vulgar names. The devs did not do that.
You can be as sick as you want of "dev bashing", there is of course a lack of personal responsibility as we did not want SH, noone wanted SH. You are extraordinarily assumptive with these types of statements and 100% wrong. Who in their right mind loves running SH HEs over and over ad nauseum? These statements are literally laughable.
As far as calling everyone nubs, scrubs, and vlugar names you are again assuming that every BIS player does that to every lower IL player. This is also hugely wrong. There are some players who call everyone "vulgar" names in PVP as there are in PVE (and I've heard worse in PVE if you make mistakes in Demo or other end game Dungeons). It's also individual. If a person plays PVP and won't stand on a node to fight, they are indeed a "nub" and a "scrub" as they've just lost the match for you. However, they can improve by moving forward 5 feet and contesting in which case they've upgraded to team mate.
Now, let's see the Devs who, by the way do make decisions on how to change imbalances in the game (it's quite literally their job that they get paid to do), take some responsibility for continuously ignoring the PVP community when they ask for positive changes to PVP.
Lastly, your tendency to disdain end game PVP players and guilds has been ongoing for mods and mods. You probably missed the glory days of PVP and never saw the history of how it came to this abysmal state so I'll simply assume a fair amount of ignorance on your part. Seeing this from the outside rather than someone who watched it fall apart from the inside will give you a different, incorrect perspective. It's too bad but likely it's all you'll be able to see looking in from the outside at this point.
Meh. Virtually every competitive game on the planet organizes and finds ways to work around dev inactivity. Games only get to the point that Neverwinter PvP is in when the players give up. NW PvP is so dead that it's just wallowing in its own toxic death spiral.
I do find it comical that everyone seems to be leaning towards player responsibility for the state of the game. If I literally had the reigns, this would already be taken care of. PVP would be as balanced as possible. It would be an overhaul back to a more vanilla version of PVP as I've already asked for. This is not player responsibility. It's simply silly to say so.
That said, I'm glad Mjolnir and others are still trying to pique dev interest in changes that can breathe fresh air into PVP. I'm hoping at some point when the devs have time/resources they will look this way and make some real, tangible changes to PVP to make it viable again.
In Blacklight we had multiple (player sponsored) $1000 tournaments for years in spite of the devs not releasing content for 18+ months. So when you try to blame it on the devs it's kind of laughable. Stuff like that actually convinced the devs for that game to buy the IP when Zombie Studios (the original studio developing it) had to close down. Sure, the game is dead beyond belief now but players kept it going for 3+ years.
Neverwinter PvP doesn't have anything like that. It's just a footnote in an MMO and the general consensus is that it's a circlejerk for a bunch of toxic HAMSTER.
lol, it's PVPers fault for not throwing down $1000 dollar tournaments to correct the imbalance the devs/management team caused... LMAO. Wow dude, just wow.
How about you "sponsor" the thousand and we'll put together a tournament
BLR had multiple organizers setting up scrims, pugs, and tournaments. Eventually PWE (mostly zen and mice), the devs (mostly camo codes), and community members (cash, video cards etc.) stepped in an started providing prizes because of that. You have to give the people a reason to bother supporting tournaments and someone will step up. Neverwinter PvP is stuck in the toxic pug stage of things and seems to have never progressed past it.
Again, your description is completely inaccurate. We aren't stuck in the pug stage because we never progressed past it. PVP used to be very good and competitive until it was coded out of existence by the continual imbalance and power leaps (as opposed to power creep). Mod 0-3 were good, a few issues needed fixing for balancing but overall any player could go into PVP with a decent chance of winning a given match. Premades fought Premades and there was more camaraderie.
PVE and PVP weren't separated via tenacity and you could do both. The best gear for PVP came from PVE so they were tied together, everyone did both and there was much less toxicity. Since then whoever makes the decisions for NW from PWE/Cryptic began making gear the complete focus of the game. Thus the SH boons, gear that was hard to get and all the other imbalance came about. It's a pretty easy lineage to trace.
There used to be a real PVP community that got together to do PMs and had fun running dungeons together after. It was entirely the evolution of the game that caused PVP to become what it is today.
Competitive communities work around imbalance. BLR's leagues tested rulesets every time there was a patch that significantly affected balance. If you can't take the time to do that I don't really understand why you'd be opposed to normalizing stats for PvP because you're apparently not up attempting to fix it yourselves.
I am proposing normalizing of stats for PvP, I'm not sure what you're on about? I've literally tried to advocate for this in multiple posts? I've given props to Mjolnir for this. I'm confused where you're coming from here because it makes no sense when you read what I've been writing?
I want a vanilla form of PVP where stats where much smaller and less important. Mj is proposing a complete revamp with standard stats. I've said I'll take anything that will make PVP more fun, less pug stomping, and more viable. PVP should foster new talent and new players. The current format doesn't allow for that. This is why most end game PVPers are advocating for change, even asking to sacrifice boons, stats, and gear they worked hard to achieve.
My biggest disappointment is many forum goers who are unable to recognize that we are literally asking the devs to take away what we worked for over a year to achieve and this gets no respect, many of us spent millions upon millions of AD to get BIS and we are asking to sacrifice it for balance. The toxic environment of the game has made a schism so large between PVP/PMers and PVEers/PuGs that vitriol is all that is given about this topic here.
I hope the Devs see what has led to this environment and correct it.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
I'm not sure if I would call anything regarding PvP "toxic." It's a friggin' game. That said, I will publicly state here, what I have stated several times in-game. There are a number of PvPers, that I can describe no better than being "gaming sociopaths."
Many of them have posted in this thread. I lack no respect for any of you as human beings and I certainly look forward to discussing things with you further. So let's nip any human-level hatred in the bud.
What I do believe, is that there are a certain group of players that lose themselves in the game. From the perspective of many players, we see premades as cowardly. Yeah, my own guild does them and I have participated a few times. I haven't really had fun doing so. Maybe a match or two. We went up against other premades in the fun matches, go figure.
Now, I'm all about premade vs. premade. I think some game mechanics lend a level of absurdity to it, but in the end, everyone goes in knowing what could happen. the question I ask myself often, is rather simple. Why would a premade queue up without knowing they were going against another premade?
I'd really like to read the answers to that question, from the people that routinely do it. I've done it and quickly realized it was no fun at all. To the point where I will tell my group that I'm out. No more PUG raking.
Why do I see the same players routinely hitting the queue with a premade? Tell me. I know it isn't fun. It wastes time. The only answer is that these people are gaming sociopaths. Fun isn't part of the equation. It's a basic need to see their BIS, Lion toting character stomp allover other players. Quite often, doing it in a 3 vs 1 situation because there is often only 1 or 2 geared or competent players on the other team worth ganging up on.
I see a lot of high-brow talk from various members of a few guilds. What is fair? What should be allowed in PvP? "Oh, we self-police, you won't ever see us sing THAT!"
All of that talk is easily washed away when I see a group of any guild consistently in the queue as a premade.
That is what I talk about when I speak of the hypocrisy of PvP. Any of you that claim you want balance and oppose certain things being used, that bust out the Lion power in a match against PUGS, WHILE IN A PREMADE, are hypocrites. You draw lines in the sand that are convenient for you. It's all talk. you want to self police your guild. Only form premades to go up against premades.
Now, having said all that, the buck stops with Cryptic. It is all their fault. My problem lies with guilds and their members that routinely come here preaching about how PvP should be, yet they go out of their way everyday to do their part to ruin it.
Congratulation. PvP, you can have it. enjoy your PUG-stomping world. All to yourselves. Which should be about all 20-30 of you by now.
Most guilds form groups to go out and PVP. I see them from many that are PVE or PVP. I can tell you most guilds now run from premades. We literally have to snipe them. The Q system isn't setup to match us and often our full PM will wind up fighting pugs while trying to fight that one marauding group.
Other times I'll put together a group to get my daily wins for glory for prestige gear because most pugs are unreliable. Many pugs are coming to PVP for their AD and could care less about the match. They will "gg" as soon as they step down from the gate and ask to trade nodes.
This has all come about because the real PMs that used to go on finally got tired of grinding for gear, SH Boons, and other stuffs to be BIS and fight at the highest tier like we'd always done in the past. There are probably around 50-100 end game players that still exist in the game. This is all due to the Power creep that lead us to this state.
The separation of PVP and PVE by tenacity and the ridiculous grind/AD needed to maintain BIS killed many peoples interest. As far as "hypocrisy" by "PVP guilds" in "Premades" there is none. PVP is non existent at this point. SO might as well get what you can get out of it.
As far as all the Lion envy I hear on the forums and throwing around terms like "sociopaths" it's silly. If we say PVP is broken and we want it fixed, it is true whether we pugstomp or not. It's true whether we group up or solo. There is nothing hypocritical about saying "PVP is screwed, we need to normalize stats and decrease the ridiculous gear gap".
That said, most of what you said proved my point about toxicity. You start by denying it then levy terms like sociopathic hypocrites. Now, if that's not toxicity.... well.
Anyway, I think we all know where PVP is today and many of us understand how it got here. Those who don't can just continue to lay blame on guilds who worked hard to get their stuff so they could fight other PMs till the other PMs disappeared or became scared to fight.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
I can't believe anyone would blame players of a game for taking advantage of faulty systems within it to get an advantage over others. That kind of logic just blows my mind.
Most people that play any game will take the path of least resistance to get an advantage. This includes glitches, broken cheese builds in PVP and broken powers. It's the job of a game developer to deliver balance and a fair playing environment.
Cryptic has delivered a minimal amount of this in PVP, and it's obvious this is always the last on the list for them when it comes to changes. When they change powers for PvE purposes this always has a ripple effect in PVP. Of course these things are not even considered when class balance passes come (for example hr piercing damage in pvp) or outright ignored if it even has the slightest adverse impact on their PvE intentions.
A good way to fix imbalances would be to have powers and feats behave differently in PvE than pvp, but they just don't want to spend the time to do this. Neglect on the part of the developer as always is the prime offender. But as long as people keep giving them money and buying into the broken system (gotta have that lion man!!!) Nothing will change.
Instead of pants and new shoes, Timmy wants an Abyssal Pony. Understandably, he is upset when Mom says no, and takes to the internet to badmouth her pragmatic nature. That is how bad threads are born, and this particular one is angsty, for lack of a better word. It reminds me of the cycle of tears from WoW years ago. People would literally start petitions to get specific aspects of the game changed, not for the sake of balance of course but for their own preferences. This necessitated a cycle of negative changes all around, for everyone.
This problem will never be fixed, not because of the developers' unwillingness to do so, but because of the community. There will always be something players consider cheap and underhanded, there is no happy medium in the realm of PVP for any game ever. If the developers do take action and make changes, those changes will be independent of our wants as a community and we will all know the joy (torture) of class balancing. One week you're on top, the next you're bottom of the barrel and after that you still suck but not as bad as that guy. It's a bucket of crabs.
Dungeon Interior Coordinator for WAR-BOUND. <i class="Italic"></i>
There's always going to be something that people consider to be cheap and underhanded. After all of those things are crushed with the nerf bat, what else? What other glaring flaw or set of flaws will present itself that must be dealt with? It's a big bucket of crabs mentality and it ruins everything. Attempting to segregate ourselves doesn't help either, except to foster more divide in the community.
People already hate pickups with a passion, and not because they're all terrible, but because of their unknown variables. Skill and gear are never a constant in pickups, which forces the player to mitigate the gear gap with as much skill as the RNG allows. Premades are basically a lab environment and go against the chaotic and uncertain nature of PVP, which makes the player soft. Personally I think there's a fear of losing to filthy casuals pervading this entire thread, but that's another conversation for a different day.
Dungeon Interior Coordinator for WAR-BOUND. <i class="Italic"></i>
Guilds that worked hard to get their stuff? Everyone was lambasting GB when we were the first to acquire drains. We busted our asses for our achievements.
After a short time, we stopped using drains.
Here's the deal. We all want a better PvP environment, right?
I'm not the leader of my guild so I can't broker anything. How about we get guild leaders together and suspend premades until Cryptic provides us with a PvP lobby that allows us to organize matches properly?
We all want to play with our friends, but that want has destroyed PvP. We absolutely need a PvP lobby that allows for premades and Pick Up Groups. That's right, people. PUGs aren't scum. In gaming terms, they aren't dogs. Just people that want to have fun in a semi-balanced environment.
I want a solution. We can't control what Cryptic does, but we can attempt to control ourselves.
We could be using drains too, but we don't, because they suck. We originally got our SH up so we could compete. What I think would be a nice interim solution would be to perhaps try and create competition by hosting tournaments. The Russian server has been doing it. There's no reason we couldn't as well.
There could also be PM vs PM of groups with relatively close IL. Guilds with lesser ranks and gear can totally make teams of relatively equal comp and IL. The problem is whether or not people are interested. I'm not going to suspend premades at this time, nor would I ever make that type of decision for my guild. For multiple reasons.
Firstly not every guild leader visits these forums and not every guild would stop running full groups. Secondarily, the reason it's 5vs5 and you can Q together is because you're supposed to Q together. You said your guild runs PMs, well... lets PM vs PM then? This is the issue. Rather than say "hey my guild runs em, your guild runs em, lets fight each other... People default to... "ummm, let's just solo Q."
Not all of us find solo Q fun. Solo Q is best for OP classes and fotm classes. It sux for those that are not. Premades make the most of all classes (especially when rainbow). PVP is NOT meant to be pugs running around directionless like chickens with their head cut off or begging for AD. It's supposed to be players trying their best to win the match.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Gutbusters do premade vs premade all of the time, well at least we used to. I think many in my guild feel the same way about the state of PvP as myself.
As for me putting together a premade to fight your premade, that's your way of casually ignoring the entire point of my posts. It's about people like yourself, obsessed with the way you want to play PvP matches.
It's no different than an organized, talented basketball team walking onto a court and annihilating a PUG. Those people want to have casual fun. Not play against a team full of ringers.
Stop making it about you and your elitist view of PvP.
I literally asked to do a premade, you said you do them all the time. Let's fight each other and leave the pugs alone. Why is this offensive? It seems that you are the one deflecting and insulting. I am offering alternatives.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
I didn't say I do them all of the time. I used to. Until yesterday, I hadn't entered a PvP match in quite some time. I'm not sure what you have to prove in fighting me.
I get it, loud and clear that you guys are obsessed with premades. Where did I mention having a problem with premades vs. premades? That's right, I didn't.
I'm still waiting for you to acknowledge that premades vs PUGs, given the limitations of our current PvP climate, are highly damaging to any chance at expanding the PvP community.
There is no PVP "community" because of things like this. I ask about two guilds doing PMs with each other to avoid pugs and fight a good match and I get in return that we're"obsessed with premades". I offer a way to avoid pugstomping and I get told no, and don't Q for PVP with a group either.
Premades vs Pugs isn't highly damaging to expanding the "PvP community". Having people who PvP and don't want a community is what is damaging to the "community". I offered multiple ideas, tournaments, PM vs PMs, lower IL PMs all of which you don't acknowledge have any merit. What I get in return is that I'm elitist and sociopathic.
You are telling me that I'm "obsessed" with premades, I could equally tell you you're "obsessed" with solo Q. They are both preferential. Neither is more right than the other. However the Q is designed for people to Q together. You keep ignoring that obvious bit of info. I wish they'd bring back Solo Q for people like you who don't like the premade scene.
Most importantly I wish they'd adopt an idea like Mjs or mine to bring back a form of PVP that doesn't require a huge IL or boons or w/e for BIS. Which is what the OP originally wrote about.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Comments
The reference you are "quoting" from is when you suggested anyone who Q's for PVP that is 4K IL should be banned from the game. I found it laughable and responded in kind to your obvious troll. I'm not angry, I just am a little amazed that your vitriol blinds you to obvious truths. PVPers want back a more balanced and fun PVP. We have offered up ourselves and our SHs as sacrifice. We have come up with creative solutions to present to the devs. We have organized in houses against ourselves despite dealing with a Q system that tries to not match us against each other. We are even now coming up with another source of potentially fun balanced PVP.
You're too biased mate, and I'm afraid there is no extrinsic cure for that. It's self inflicted, but nevertheless I still think MJs ideas or anyone's who can come up with a more viable solution is aces in my book.
I would also add that this seems to be a personal issue with me, I have no personal issue with you besides the posts you make which give a lopsided view. You are seeing things only from your perspective. I try to offer another perspective and you bat it away. I realize what it's like to pug into a match and watch a single BIS PVPer, especially of an OP class variety, wreck an entire team (often still losing the match but wracking up a crazy k/d ratio.
I am well aware of the state of PVP, of the imbalance, and how it got here. It was because too much was invested into gear, SH boons, and other miscellaneous items it left people hating the grind to become competitive so they left. Thus we're left with low geared players and BIS players and a terrible matchmaking system. It's literally that simple.
Neverwinter PvP doesn't have anything like that. It's just a footnote in an MMO and the general consensus is that it's a circlejerk for a bunch of toxic HAMSTER.
Gotta agree. PvP is unsalvagable short of complete wipe and reset which will erase the small disgusting current population.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
How about you "sponsor" the thousand and we'll put together a tournament
However, if the framework is faulty, you cant really think its all on the players.
Neither can you crush the devs for all the actions of the players.. like GG, no honest at all reason for high end jerks to destory the only real entry level pvp for years.. but they did.
I think there is enough blame to go around to what actually destroyed pvp.. to not castigate one side completely.
PVE and PVP weren't separated via tenacity and you could do both. The best gear for PVP came from PVE so they were tied together, everyone did both and there was much less toxicity. Since then whoever makes the decisions for NW from PWE/Cryptic began making gear the complete focus of the game. Thus the SH boons, gear that was hard to get and all the other imbalance came about. It's a pretty easy lineage to trace.
There used to be a real PVP community that got together to do PMs and had fun running dungeons together after. It was entirely the evolution of the game that caused PVP to become what it is today.
Been a while mate. Yes, you DO lose some build diversity... Again I would ask though... WOW has a MUCH MUCH bigger/healthier PVP scene than NW. They opted for loss of build diversity for this, so I would wonder why...
I think keeping it simple. "Builds" can come from SPEC, not from gear. That way they can adjust all the trees with minor changes to balance PVP - without worrying too much about how stats create bugs and HAMSTER... Perfect example is avalanche boon. How much did that give us woes for a long time... Or talk about items? Remember Emblem in mod 2? 6mil for a green and if you didn't have 1, GTFO out of PVP.
I get what you are saying about having some gear options. Frankly, that's extra work for not much payoff. How much are a few hundred stats REALLY giving you diversity? If it were thousands... well yeah, having ARP vs Power vs Crit or w.e might make a tiny difference. At this point, id rather just have them make it 100% standardized and builds are what vary via your feats. This exactly!!!! Thanks Tyrion. Some of us "Old Timers" remember the TRUE glory days when PVP was this games bread and butter! I used to be "chums" with a DEV who said the Russian server brought in a "majority" of the revenue and he specifically told me that it was the PVPers who would buy most of the stuff on that server. So PVP was largely responsible for FINANCING this game....
Up until ~ module 3 PVP was strong in this game. Gear gap was "mild" but it wasn't large enough to make a big difference. Around mod 4 I would say is the "dark days" where they started with artifact gear and it only got worse from there.
The guys who wanted competition... well it slowly died out... PUG stomps became the norm and generally speaking, the players truly seeking competition left the game. I know first hand there ARE still BIS PVPers that are here for true competition and end up resorting to using the PTR or setting up inhouses to do this. I wanted to clarify incase anyone thinks that "all BIS PVPERS want is to PUG stomp" because frankly its not true. Youll notice many of the people advocating for "normalized PVP" are players who ARE BIS, who are sick of the current state of PVP
We need to go "back" to the days PRE-modules... Back when the "gear gap" between a BIS player and an "average" player was a mere few hundred stat points... Heck, back then a good PVP er would use rank 7-8s and a Greater enchant against Rank 10s and a Perf. The gear gap? Minimal.... Today you try that "equivalent" and it adds up to thousands if not tens of thousands of stats...
Again I say... "If WOW did it, maybe there is a reason" and MAYBE.... just MAYBE, Neverwinter would benefit from a similar PVP system to WOW.
The reason neverwinter stood out to me is because the devs here seemed to mix ease of acess with hardcore elements well, at least sometimes.
I have experienced this system of giving everyone the same stats during pvp, in different mmos and it just made the games for me unbearably boring, because it removes possibilities and motivation to build and invest into your character. While it's obviously extreme here, to send 1,6k against 4k, if, for example, you instead win with a team of 2k against a team of 3k, it feels great and means skill can show aswell.
Most people that play any game will take the path of least resistance to get an advantage. This includes glitches, broken cheese builds in PVP and broken powers. It's the job of a game developer to deliver balance and a fair playing environment.
Cryptic has delivered a minimal amount of this in PVP, and it's obvious this is always the last on the list for them when it comes to changes. When they change powers for PvE purposes this always has a ripple effect in PVP. Of course these things are not even considered when class balance passes come (for example hr piercing damage in pvp) or outright ignored if it even has the slightest adverse impact on their PvE intentions.
A good way to fix imbalances would be to have powers and feats behave differently in PvE than pvp, but they just don't want to spend the time to do this. Neglect on the part of the developer as always is the prime offender. But as long as people keep giving them money and buying into the broken system (gotta have that lion man!!!) Nothing will change.
I want a vanilla form of PVP where stats where much smaller and less important. Mj is proposing a complete revamp with standard stats. I've said I'll take anything that will make PVP more fun, less pug stomping, and more viable. PVP should foster new talent and new players. The current format doesn't allow for that. This is why most end game PVPers are advocating for change, even asking to sacrifice boons, stats, and gear they worked hard to achieve.
My biggest disappointment is many forum goers who are unable to recognize that we are literally asking the devs to take away what we worked for over a year to achieve and this gets no respect, many of us spent millions upon millions of AD to get BIS and we are asking to sacrifice it for balance. The toxic environment of the game has made a schism so large between PVP/PMers and PVEers/PuGs that vitriol is all that is given about this topic here.
I hope the Devs see what has led to this environment and correct it.
Other times I'll put together a group to get my daily wins for glory for prestige gear because most pugs are unreliable. Many pugs are coming to PVP for their AD and could care less about the match. They will "gg" as soon as they step down from the gate and ask to trade nodes.
This has all come about because the real PMs that used to go on finally got tired of grinding for gear, SH Boons, and other stuffs to be BIS and fight at the highest tier like we'd always done in the past. There are probably around 50-100 end game players that still exist in the game. This is all due to the Power creep that lead us to this state.
The separation of PVP and PVE by tenacity and the ridiculous grind/AD needed to maintain BIS killed many peoples interest. As far as "hypocrisy" by "PVP guilds" in "Premades" there is none. PVP is non existent at this point. SO might as well get what you can get out of it.
As far as all the Lion envy I hear on the forums and throwing around terms like "sociopaths" it's silly. If we say PVP is broken and we want it fixed, it is true whether we pugstomp or not. It's true whether we group up or solo. There is nothing hypocritical about saying "PVP is screwed, we need to normalize stats and decrease the ridiculous gear gap".
That said, most of what you said proved my point about toxicity. You start by denying it then levy terms like sociopathic hypocrites. Now, if that's not toxicity.... well.
Anyway, I think we all know where PVP is today and many of us understand how it got here. Those who don't can just continue to lay blame on guilds who worked hard to get their stuff so they could fight other PMs till the other PMs disappeared or became scared to fight.
This problem will never be fixed, not because of the developers' unwillingness to do so, but because of the community. There will always be something players consider cheap and underhanded, there is no happy medium in the realm of PVP for any game ever. If the developers do take action and make changes, those changes will be independent of our wants as a community and we will all know the joy (torture) of class balancing. One week you're on top, the next you're bottom of the barrel and after that you still suck but not as bad as that guy. It's a bucket of crabs.
PS4 characters:
Brie Liadon, Shotgun Wizard
Disposable Hero, Kidney removal technician
Valorous Cake, Armored pastry defender
Ginger Christ needs no introductions
People already hate pickups with a passion, and not because they're all terrible, but because of their unknown variables. Skill and gear are never a constant in pickups, which forces the player to mitigate the gear gap with as much skill as the RNG allows. Premades are basically a lab environment and go against the chaotic and uncertain nature of PVP, which makes the player soft. Personally I think there's a fear of losing to filthy casuals pervading this entire thread, but that's another conversation for a different day.
PS4 characters:
Brie Liadon, Shotgun Wizard
Disposable Hero, Kidney removal technician
Valorous Cake, Armored pastry defender
Ginger Christ needs no introductions
There could also be PM vs PM of groups with relatively close IL. Guilds with lesser ranks and gear can totally make teams of relatively equal comp and IL. The problem is whether or not people are interested. I'm not going to suspend premades at this time, nor would I ever make that type of decision for my guild. For multiple reasons.
Firstly not every guild leader visits these forums and not every guild would stop running full groups. Secondarily, the reason it's 5vs5 and you can Q together is because you're supposed to Q together. You said your guild runs PMs, well... lets PM vs PM then? This is the issue. Rather than say "hey my guild runs em, your guild runs em, lets fight each other... People default to... "ummm, let's just solo Q."
Not all of us find solo Q fun. Solo Q is best for OP classes and fotm classes. It sux for those that are not. Premades make the most of all classes (especially when rainbow). PVP is NOT meant to be pugs running around directionless like chickens with their head cut off or begging for AD. It's supposed to be players trying their best to win the match.
Premades vs Pugs isn't highly damaging to expanding the "PvP community". Having people who PvP and don't want a community is what is damaging to the "community". I offered multiple ideas, tournaments, PM vs PMs, lower IL PMs all of which you don't acknowledge have any merit. What I get in return is that I'm elitist and sociopathic.
You are telling me that I'm "obsessed" with premades, I could equally tell you you're "obsessed" with solo Q. They are both preferential. Neither is more right than the other. However the Q is designed for people to Q together. You keep ignoring that obvious bit of info. I wish they'd bring back Solo Q for people like you who don't like the premade scene.
Most importantly I wish they'd adopt an idea like Mjs or mine to bring back a form of PVP that doesn't require a huge IL or boons or w/e for BIS. Which is what the OP originally wrote about.