treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited January 2017
My opinion about lifedrinker
It plays a very important survival papper on the player, assuming the player life steal afected dps is around 100k (wich is very modest) the life steal increase provided by the enchantment will be (100k * (current ls amount + 5%) * 1. (x+20) * 1.y)) / (100k * current amount of ls* 1.x *1.y), life steal severity can only be obtained from insignias, boons, 1 companion(i heard it's buged anyone can confirm?, it's the werewolf from GF pack afik not droping from dungeons EDIT: it is) and somi set. With 0 ls chance and severity we will have 6k ls per second and very important factor the increase of ls reliabilitty on the cases it already existed, from this point all is all relative to the amount of damage the player is taking, on a regular dungeon run this vallue will only be relevant and justify the incoming health gain for tanks and assuming there are no other healing sources, but......lifedrinker can and will be more effective in pvp. Honestly i wouldn't want to see life drinker buffed to infinity, rather make the game more surviviality demanding so dps classes survival builds actually are logical to build, fix "bugs", the AA "bug" and fix the way life steal works so defence starts means something.
So, Flaming is over-performing, but Lightning is getting nerfed?
On papper, flaming and plague have a good performance, on practice they dont for all the cases (read @thefabricant important note more or less on the beggining his comparisson), grab a TR, the best example i can find, go anywhere with some near dummies and start hitting dummies with flurry in 1 to 1,5 seconds you will see the aoe (according to act duelist flurry hit's around 3,1 times each second, this on a 5 minutes test) so for example in my TR my rotation starts by applying wicked reminder that will fill the first initial 3 hits, followed by smoke bomb (no stacks), dazing strike(that applies 2 stacks) then flurry, so easly when starting to flurry the target i will reach 6 "pseudo" stacks, of course only 3 of these are up, summing it up, the dps provided by flamming in that second on a 1000 wd weapon= player damage* 1.003 + 190 * 6 * (1.003) + 110 * 3*(1.003), but like i said above flurry stacks 3,1 times a second, so each second flurry goes on combined with wicked reminder, somke bomb, dazing strike the more "pseudo" strikes the target will gain, flaming damage will drop, in this case lightning, holy avenger and even terror will out perform flaming, there are some other rotations that will have the same effect across the classes so...i dont know, the damage is decent already even a 19% + the aoe damage that should be more significant now it's already competitive....
Post edited by treesclimber on
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
It plays a very important survival papper on the player, assuming the player life steal afected dps is around 100k (wich is very modest) the life steal increase provided by the enchantment will be (100k * (current ls amount + 5%) * 1. (x+20) * 1.y)) / (100k * current amount of ls* 1.x *1.y), life steal severity can only be obtained from insignias, boons, 1 companion(i heard it's buged anyone can confirm?, it's the werewolf from GF pack afik not droping from dungeons) and somi set. With 0 ls chance and severity we will have 6k ls per second and very important factor the increase of ls reliabilitty on the cases it already existed, from this point all is all relative to the amount of damage the player is taking, on a regular dungeon run this vallue will only be relevant and justify the incoming health gain for tanks and assuming there are no other healing sources, but......lifedrinker can and will be more effective in pvp. Honestly i wouldn't want to see life drinker buffed to infinity, rather make the game more surviviality demanding so dps classes survival builds actually are logical to build, fix "bugs", the AA "bug" and fix the way life steal works so defence starts means something.
x-life steal severity y-incoming healing bonus
As it is I don't like the design of lifedrinker, what I would do is change it so instead of granting lifesteal severity, it allows you to lifesteal up to 10% of your max HP as extra temp HP, which would be a fairly unique design for the enchantment for 1 and it would give it a far more useful role. As it is in PVE, it has no place because we already overheal due to lifesteal, however, if that overhealing became useful, this enchant might have a place.
So, Flaming is over-performing, but Lightning is getting nerfed?
On papper, flaming and plague have a good performance, on practice they dont for all the cases (read @thefabricant important note more or less on the beggining his comparisson), grab a TR, the best example i can find, go anywhere with some near dummies and start hitting dummies with flurry in 1 to 1,5 seconds you will see the aoe (according to act duelist flurry hit's around 3,1 times each second, this on a 5 minutes test) so for example in my TR my rotation starts by applying wicked reminder that will fill the first initial 3 hits, followed by smoke bomb (no stacks), dazing strike(that applies 2 stacks) then flurry, so easly when starting to flurry the target i will reach 6 "pseudo" stacks, of course only 3 of these are up, summing it up, the dps provided by flamming in that second on a 1000 wd weapon= player damage* 1.003 + 190 * 6 * (1.003) + 110 * 3*(1.003), but like i said above flurry stacks 3,1 times a second, so each second flurry goes on combined with wicked reminder, somke bomb, dazing strike the more "pseudo" strikes the target will gain, flaming damage will drop, in this case lightning, holy avenger and even terror will out perform flaming, there are some other rotations that will have the same effect across the classes so...i dont know, the damage is decent already even a 19% + the aoe damage that should be more significant now it's already competitive....
Yeah, for a more accurate comparison, I would do the following:
1) If your rotation contains CoI or IT or ST, set L to 0.5.
2) If your rotation contains 2 of the above, set L to 0.33.
3) If your rotation contains all 3, set L to 0.25.
4) If your rotation contains OF, set L to 0.8.
5) If your rotation contains 2) and 4) , set L to 0.29.
6) If your rotation contains 3) and 4), set L to 0.22
If your rotation contains none of the above, set L to 0.9.
You will see for IT and CoI, flaming is still, *slightly* better than dread/vorp, but on pretty much every other skill, it will be rubbish. If the devs were to change flaming though, I wouldn't raise the dps of the DoT but rather increase the number of times it stacks to stick with the theme of the enchant.
What irritates me is that if you look in those graphs, for some of them, Bilethorn drops below 0. If you actually go and test Bilethorn, this behavior is actually mimicked in test results. Literally slotting no enchant is better in some cases.
Also, @rgutscheradev I think the bug with the lightning arc is also the reason it procs abyss of chaos and is also related to this bug report here. The arc likely counts as a separate entity, so it doesn't benefit from your power or attribute bonus because it isn't related to your toon.
Lifedrinker, Holy Avenger and Terror are all objectively worse than at least 1 enchantment on the list of enchantments here. Therefor, these enchantments need to be buffed.
@rgutscheradev Give Terror some love \o/ Making its DR debuff actually 4% rather than mitigate down to 1,2% would help, as well as increasing its PvP debuff up to 30% from current 20%.
@rgutscheradev I second the opinion stated above. Please do make terror meaningful to use for end game content where most of the stuff matters. At svardborg , terror actually drops to 0.9% effectiveness .. It cannot compete with enchants of similar nature such as plague fire and whats more funny is the debuffs coming from the dps oriented enchantments like dread and vorpal give higher debuffs than terror for end game content. The major problem with terror is the multiple levels of mitigation it undergoes which no other enchantment suffers. I will never ask to buff something to overpowered levels and my only feedback at this point is just allow Terror to not be affected by enemy DR for PVE. you can keep it's functionality to respect the cap at 200% effectiveness and allow the 75% effectiveness on level 73 Enemies. This change would mean that terror would still perform at a capped 3% debuff for end game content and perform with full functionality at lower tiered content. All i'm asking is to toss a lifeline to a dying enchantment. When the review for weapon enchants happens in the future where in you actually start fixing bugs we will be able to assess how well terror performs by then and tweaks can be made later on if need be but at its current state its simply cannot even compete with the others. It's like entering an arena and getting a KO in your face right there. That's how it feels using terror compared to the others. Now while talking about pve , we cant leave pvp behind so just simply at this point fix the power debuff it's supposed to do which just doesnt work at all for pvp.
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited January 2017
If lifedrinker really was changed to acummulate temp HP it would have to be of a special kind, even shield have influence in powers / feats, wrathful warrior/new mirage weapon (wich would make having temp hp even worse).
Yeah, for a more accurate comparison, I would do the following:
1) If your rotation contains CoI or IT or ST, set L to 0.5.
2) If your rotation contains 2 of the above, set L to 0.33.
3) If your rotation contains all 3, set L to 0.25.
4) If your rotation contains OF, set L to 0.8.
5) If your rotation contains 2) and 4) , set L to 0.29.
6) If your rotation contains 3) and 4), set L to 0.22
If your rotation contains none of the above, set L to 0.9.
You will see for IT and CoI, flaming is still, *slightly* better than dread/vorp, but on pretty much every other skill, it will be rubbish. If the devs were to change flaming though, I wouldn't raise the dps of the DoT but rather increase the number of times it stacks to stick with the theme of the enchant.
What irritates me is that if you look in those graphs, for some of them, Bilethorn drops below 0. If you actually go and test Bilethorn, this behavior is actually mimicked in test results. Literally slotting no enchant is better in some cases.
That is probably a better comparisson and since the weapon damage based damage went up and the debuff on target is not enough to justify use in fast stacking cases increasing the debuff makes sence.
@rgutscheradev Give Terror some love \o/ Making its DR debuff actually 4% rather than mitigate down to 1,2% would help, as well as increasing its PvP debuff up to 30% from current 20%.
If you mean in a team with high debuffs it's influence goes down......it's supposed other enchants go as well, what i dont agree is mobs being "terrified" only by 1 terro (only tried R12).
If you mean in a team with high debuffs it's influence goes down......it's supposed other enchants go as well, what i dont agree is mobs being "terrified" only by 1 terro (only tried R12).
Thats not I mean. It gets negated regardless of the group down to 1,2% against 73 level mobs as far as I know.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Buffing the DoT for flaming does not benefit a CW, or SW at all. It will help the rest however.
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
If you mean in a team with high debuffs it's influence goes down......it's supposed other enchants go as well, what i dont agree is mobs being "terrified" only by 1 terro (only tried R12).
Thats not I mean. It gets negated regardless of the group down to 1,2% against 73 level mobs as far as I know.
Yes, i have forgoten that...but comparing for example with frost, it will disable foes and the direct comparisson to terror in the debuff would be something like 7/1.2 but 5 times less so 1,16 better...but terror does superior damage and the root is tatical (that is really long)....now here comes the big diference frost is superior to terror in jump fights where the debuff lenght is a big % of the fight, so i agree at least that DR reduction of terror should go.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
@chemodan007 all of the weapon enchantments are subjected to the hidden monster incoming damage debuff and are 75% effective in level 73 content.
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited January 2017
Ok, I have corrected all the values afaik, I may have missed 1 or 2, I am not perfect and this is a lot to maintain, so if anyone is actually checking this stuff (I doubt it but whatever) point out any that are wrong. XD
For some masochistic reason I am also accounting for *most* of the bugs with these enchantments, so when the bugs get fixed, I will need to fix my values as well <.<
1 thing to note is I am trying to come up with a better way to bias the flaming and plaguefire, I will stick with the default value of 1 for the graphs since that fits the initial conditions for the test, however, for the sake of any meaningful comparisons, until I find a better way to calculate L (and I will probably move its position in the equation around) I recommend a minimum value of 0.318 and a maximum of 0.4
treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited January 2017
The bug on feytouched still prevails for HR ^ and CW but SW apparently is good now but new bug appeared, with feytouched using essence defiler im hitting myself for 0 damage.
Also did some dps comparisson (all on lvl 73) and results are good, lightning is very good for multi target but nothing exescive i tried 3 "laders" 8 mobs, 4 mobs, 3 mobs, bilethorn damage it's very good not to the point of lightning in multi target , flaming not bad but underperforming. I dont understand the lvl 73 mitigation part, do lvl 73 mobs have critical severity resist? And why can CW's stack plague and flaming beyond 3 stacks? (i tried all in gwf/cw and TR)
Post edited by treesclimber on
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Level 73+ mobs simply take only 75% of most damage (not sure if all would be accurate, as I think there are a few odd exceptions). This is just one way the devs coded some stuff to increase challenge ratings in a very simplistic fashion.
@treesclimber maybe it will be interesting for you: Fire buff from Wheel of Elements does 30%*0.75=22.5% damage against 73lvl. Also, Stronhold PvE Slayer Enchantments does 3.75%/7.5% vs 73lvl (instead 5%/10%). Blade Hurricane (HR melee capstone) does 165%*0.75 damage. I think that is the wrong mechanic. Damage is mitigated twice. First time 75% of self damage skill (100%*0.75). The second time, the damage from the additional hit (buff, enchantment, feat) is mitigated again (Wheel: 100%*0.75*0.30*0.75).
after some testing i can say "once in 20 sec proc on plague and fire enchants are still useless"
to be honest even before testing i could say that was the case (i am glad its been changed but still every 20 seconds getting results such as Lowest 1844 to highest 4180 with power scaling is still useless
1: either keep the 20 seconds but boost Damage alot more 2: or add other effect into it to do DPS/Debuff
its essentially a build up then an explosion of said effect(S)
Suggestion for flaming:
Flaming AOE Explosion but with a cascade effect
When you reach 20 seconds and it explodes "you" being the source it then explodes in a ring of fire outwords (20-30') 1 Primary Explosion and 2 secondry times Each enemy caught in each tier of the Explosion has a fire dot on them
tier 1 1.5k ES - 3 seconds tier 2 3k ES - 4 second tier 3 5k ES - 5 seconds
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited January 2017
I have noticed the other day that weapon enchantments independent damage also life steals, i only tried Holy A. and the idea of flamings dot passed me but they also do. With a decent ls severity ls change and damage multipliers ls is working for flamings like before module 6,---------------->>>>> life drinker <--------------really needs some valorization
OK thanks all for the clarification -- I will take another look at the arcs on Lightning. I had misunderstood and thought people were talking about the first hit.
Removing cooldowns: I'd rather buff the effects (like the x12 damage I did for the Flaming 20-sec proc) so that they are appropriate for the 20 second cooldown. There are enough frequent little procs in the Weapon Enchants that I don't want to add more. I think keeping the design intent of "big cool thing 20 seconds", but making it actually big and cool, will be the better path. Some of these may need to wait for the one-by-one passes, though
Oh, people have mentioned "hidden scaling", and it's quite true. There is some math that scales up the damage for slow attacks. This isn't a general part of the combat engine, but something that was specifically added for the weapon enchants. Each hit gives *either* the damage bonus stated in the tooltip, or a scaled-up damage if the attack is really slow (whichever is larger). If people are seeing "hidden scaling" on certain attacks, that is probably where it is coming from.
Flaming DoT being low: I'm a bit confused by this one. The base numbers on Flaming are 17% weapon damage plus 11% per DoT stack, and there are 3 stacks. So that's 33% total on the DoTs, which makes a total of 50% weapon damage base (all of it scaling). As far as raw damage goes, that's the most of the Weapon Enchants (of the ones that do damage directly like that). I agree the numbers *look* small in the combat log, because each stack of the dot lists separately (sorry about that -- I have no control over how things appear in the combat log, it's not a super-sophisticated system, although for the parsers that is probably just as well, it's hard to parse if it's doing lots of extra stuff). But the totals should be pretty high compared to the other WEs. (The only caveat is that you get the best benefit if your attack speed is around 1x/sec -- slower than that, and you can't keep up the DoT stacks, faster than that and you are "wasting" some DoT procs because enemies are often at max stacks when you hit them. For the truly leet, this can be mitigated somewhat by clever target rotation, but most people -- myself included -- can't really do this effectively.)
tested trans flaming on my gwf and it was quite bad think it was aprox 13% of my dps and trans bile did not preform to great either it was doing aprox 19% and if we take in account planed nerf of trans bile it might become quite weak as well
13% and 19% are actually very good. That means it would be better for most players than Pure+ Vorpal (think 25% damage at 100% crit). This would mean nobody would want vorpal until they have really good crit chance.
Lifedrinker should be similar too the Feytouch but when triggered increases lifesteal chance 8% an siphons power and defense by 8% for like 10seconds on a cooldown of 20sec's at [Pure]
@rgutscheradev While you're doing all this tweaking can u guys do sth about Stacking debuffs from different players with the same enchants ?
Enchants with stacking debuffs (pf, terror etc) don't stack on a target if they're the same rank.
It's kind of a shame since ppl spend millions of ad for upgrading, only to have their enchant's effect negated if there's someone in a group with the same one.
I'm not saying they should all stack together, everything would melt on sight, but can there be some kind of other added bonus ?
Like a minor incremental increase of the debuff for x number of players using the same rank ench, etc etc ?
Or maybe a completely new bonus for the multiple player stacks per identical level of enchant ?
OK thanks all for the clarification -- I will take another look at the arcs on Lightning. I had misunderstood and thought people were talking about the first hit.
Removing cooldowns: I'd rather buff the effects (like the x12 damage I did for the Flaming 20-sec proc) so that they are appropriate for the 20 second cooldown. There are enough frequent little procs in the Weapon Enchants that I don't want to add more. I think keeping the design intent of "big cool thing 20 seconds", but making it actually big and cool, will be the better path. Some of these may need to wait for the one-by-one passes, though
Oh, people have mentioned "hidden scaling", and it's quite true. There is some math that scales up the damage for slow attacks. This isn't a general part of the combat engine, but something that was specifically added for the weapon enchants. Each hit gives *either* the damage bonus stated in the tooltip, or a scaled-up damage if the attack is really slow (whichever is larger). If people are seeing "hidden scaling" on certain attacks, that is probably where it is coming from.
Flaming DoT being low: I'm a bit confused by this one. The base numbers on Flaming are 17% weapon damage plus 11% per DoT stack, and there are 3 stacks. So that's 33% total on the DoTs, which makes a total of 50% weapon damage base (all of it scaling). As far as raw damage goes, that's the most of the Weapon Enchants (of the ones that do damage directly like that). I agree the numbers *look* small in the combat log, because each stack of the dot lists separately (sorry about that -- I have no control over how things appear in the combat log, it's not a super-sophisticated system, although for the parsers that is probably just as well, it's hard to parse if it's doing lots of extra stuff). But the totals should be pretty high compared to the other WEs. (The only caveat is that you get the best benefit if your attack speed is around 1x/sec -- slower than that, and you can't keep up the DoT stacks, faster than that and you are "wasting" some DoT procs because enemies are often at max stacks when you hit them. For the truly leet, this can be mitigated somewhat by clever target rotation, but most people -- myself included -- can't really do this effectively.)
tested trans flaming on my gwf and it was quite bad think it was aprox 13% of my dps and trans bile did not preform to great either it was doing aprox 19% and if we take in account planed nerf of trans bile it might become quite weak as well
13% and 19% are actually very good. That means it would be better for most players than Pure+ Vorpal (think 25% damage at 100% crit). This would mean nobody would want vorpal until they have really good crit chance.
it depends how u look at it lightning was then 25%to40% of my dps dpends how many mobs were there or fey weapon proc was doing alone 17%
OK thanks all for the clarification -- I will take another look at the arcs on Lightning. I had misunderstood and thought people were talking about the first hit.
Removing cooldowns: I'd rather buff the effects (like the x12 damage I did for the Flaming 20-sec proc) so that they are appropriate for the 20 second cooldown. There are enough frequent little procs in the Weapon Enchants that I don't want to add more. I think keeping the design intent of "big cool thing 20 seconds", but making it actually big and cool, will be the better path. Some of these may need to wait for the one-by-one passes, though
Oh, people have mentioned "hidden scaling", and it's quite true. There is some math that scales up the damage for slow attacks. This isn't a general part of the combat engine, but something that was specifically added for the weapon enchants. Each hit gives *either* the damage bonus stated in the tooltip, or a scaled-up damage if the attack is really slow (whichever is larger). If people are seeing "hidden scaling" on certain attacks, that is probably where it is coming from.
Flaming DoT being low: I'm a bit confused by this one. The base numbers on Flaming are 17% weapon damage plus 11% per DoT stack, and there are 3 stacks. So that's 33% total on the DoTs, which makes a total of 50% weapon damage base (all of it scaling). As far as raw damage goes, that's the most of the Weapon Enchants (of the ones that do damage directly like that). I agree the numbers *look* small in the combat log, because each stack of the dot lists separately (sorry about that -- I have no control over how things appear in the combat log, it's not a super-sophisticated system, although for the parsers that is probably just as well, it's hard to parse if it's doing lots of extra stuff). But the totals should be pretty high compared to the other WEs. (The only caveat is that you get the best benefit if your attack speed is around 1x/sec -- slower than that, and you can't keep up the DoT stacks, faster than that and you are "wasting" some DoT procs because enemies are often at max stacks when you hit them. For the truly leet, this can be mitigated somewhat by clever target rotation, but most people -- myself included -- can't really do this effectively.)
tested trans flaming on my gwf and it was quite bad think it was aprox 13% of my dps and trans bile did not preform to great either it was doing aprox 19% and if we take in account planed nerf of trans bile it might become quite weak as well
13% and 19% are actually very good. That means it would be better for most players than Pure+ Vorpal (think 25% damage at 100% crit). This would mean nobody would want vorpal until they have really good crit chance.
it depends how u look at it lightning was then 25%to40% of my dps dpends how many mobs were there or fey weapon proc was doing alone 17%
Yes but those are getting nerfed a bit I believe I read.
All the Weapon Enhancements (well, all the "%weapon damage" ones) should now trigger once per power use, rather than once for almost all the powers, but x60 (or some other ridiculous number) for certain powers (thanks to thefabricant for finding a good repro case for this!).
As our longtime players know, "triggers only once instead of a billion times" is something that our engine doesn't always handle well. Please keep an eye out for this fix, and let me know if it failed somewhere (something is still multiproccing) or if some unintended consequence has reared its ugly head.
I found and squashed that annoying bug where flaming enchant DoTs would do a small extra hit for every real hit. This should clean up the Flaming (and Plague Fire) combat logs a bunch.
The "Lightning chain hits don't scale" bug is turning out to be more of a problem than I thought. I may need software help to get it fixed, in which case the fix may come in later. Keep in mind that the intention *is* for those extra hits to scale, so remember that before asking for more lightning damage!
Oh, and one other thing: it was reported as a bug earlier that the base numbers went up as your power went up. That was actually on purpose -- the idea is that if the tooltip had said "does 300-400 damage" and you gained 4000 power, you'd see "does 330-440 damage", so something similar should happen here. In this case, it's something like "does 30% of weapon damage" becoming "does 33% of weapon damage".
Do people like having the tooltip adjust in this way? I agree it's a bit weird, but it felt to me on balance more comprehensible (at least for the average player) than just showing the base percentage all the time. And it's way less wordy than adding a sentence that says something like "This damage is scaled by your Power (and by all the other things that normally scale your damage)".
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Oh, and one other thing: it was reported as a bug earlier that the base numbers went up as your power went up. That was actually on purpose -- the idea is that if the tooltip had said "does 300-400 damage" and you gained 4000 power, you'd see "does 330-440 damage", so something similar should happen here. In this case, it's something like "does 30% of weapon damage" becoming "does 33% of weapon damage".
Do people like having the tooltip adjust in this way? I agree it's a bit weird, but it felt to me on balance more comprehensible (at least for the average player) than just showing the base percentage all the time. And it's way less wordy than adding a sentence that says something like "This damage is scaled by your Power (and by all the other things that normally scale your damage)".
I would rather the tooltip remained fixed and it had that extra line of text. It tells people more about how it works mechanically then just having the number update. Well, tbh, there are a whole bunch of things I would change about the tooltips, but this isn't the thread to discuss those changes XD
All the Weapon Enhancements (well, all the "%weapon damage" ones) should now trigger once per power use, rather than once for almost all the powers, but x60 (or some other ridiculous number) for certain powers (thanks to thefabricant for finding a good repro case for this!).
As our longtime players know, "triggers only once instead of a billion times" is something that our engine doesn't always handle well. Please keep an eye out for this fix, and let me know if it failed somewhere (something is still multiproccing) or if some unintended consequence has reared its ugly head.
I found and squashed that annoying bug where flaming enchant DoTs would do a small extra hit for every real hit. This should clean up the Flaming (and Plague Fire) combat logs a bunch.
The "Lightning chain hits don't scale" bug is turning out to be more of a problem than I thought. I may need software help to get it fixed, in which case the fix may come in later. Keep in mind that the intention *is* for those extra hits to scale, so remember that before asking for more lightning damage!
@rgutscheradev if I am reading this right, no skills will proc enchantments multiple times anymore? (I will check this when the update is on preview, but just confirming this is the intention.) If so, this kind of kills the viability of the scaling enchantments, because if we take a look at say vorpal.
Lets reword the vorpal mechanic to:
On critical hits, deal 50% of your non crit damage as an additional hit.
This is effectively another way of describing how vorpal works (it nets the same %dps increase), only, it procs off every hit on the crits of encounters, not just once per encounter use. Whilst I know from a balance perspective cases like Imprisonment need to be fixed, these enchantments cannot compete at all if they don't multiproc off some skills. If for example we look at Icy Terrain, the skill itself does next to no damage, what makes it strong is its ability to proc stuff multiple times.
From a personal standpoint, I have both dread and vorp so if this is what this change means, all it means is I will stick with dread and vorp. However, I would really like an excuse to use something else, so please don't take that away
ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Heh I hope that isn't what it means....
You're going to destroy the CW and force it to stick with vorpal/dread if this is the case. That imprisonment bug and perhaps toning down steal time to only a few procs is all you need.
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
@rgutscheradev listen to thefabricant making the WE proc only once per encounter will be their death, it's better to set a lock on number of targets affected or add a hiden multiplier, likeyou said in the beggining:
"if some specialized builds find that another WE is BiS now, that can be OK, as long as it’s not too extreme (again, we don’t want to totally nuke large numbers of people who have invested in their current WE)."
What will hapen is exactly the oposite, enchantments dealing too extreme low damage.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
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It plays a very important survival papper on the player, assuming the player life steal afected dps is around 100k (wich is very modest) the life steal increase provided by the enchantment will be (100k * (current ls amount + 5%) * 1. (x+20) * 1.y)) / (100k * current amount of ls* 1.x *1.y), life steal severity can only be obtained from insignias, boons, 1 companion(i heard it's buged anyone can confirm?, it's the werewolf from GF pack afik not droping from dungeons EDIT: it is) and somi set. With 0 ls chance and severity we will have 6k ls per second and very important factor the increase of ls reliabilitty on the cases it already existed, from this point all is all relative to the amount of damage the player is taking, on a regular dungeon run this vallue will only be relevant and justify the incoming health gain for tanks and assuming there are no other healing sources, but......lifedrinker can and will be more effective in pvp. Honestly i wouldn't want to see life drinker buffed to infinity, rather make the game more surviviality demanding so dps classes survival builds actually are logical to build, fix "bugs", the AA "bug" and fix the way life steal works so defence starts means something.
x-life steal severity
y-incoming healing bonus
On papper, flaming and plague have a good performance, on practice they dont for all the cases (read @thefabricant important note more or less on the beggining his comparisson), grab a TR, the best example i can find, go anywhere with some near dummies and start hitting dummies with flurry in 1 to 1,5 seconds you will see the aoe (according to act duelist flurry hit's around 3,1 times each second, this on a 5 minutes test) so for example in my TR my rotation starts by applying wicked reminder that will fill the first initial 3 hits, followed by smoke bomb (no stacks), dazing strike(that applies 2 stacks) then flurry, so easly when starting to flurry the target i will reach 6 "pseudo" stacks, of course only 3 of these are up, summing it up, the dps provided by flamming in that second on a 1000 wd weapon= player damage* 1.003 + 190 * 6 * (1.003) + 110 * 3*(1.003), but like i said above flurry stacks 3,1 times a second, so each second flurry goes on combined with wicked reminder, somke bomb, dazing strike the more "pseudo" strikes the target will gain, flaming damage will drop, in this case lightning, holy avenger and even terror will out perform flaming, there are some other rotations that will have the same effect across the classes so...i dont know, the damage is decent already even a 19% + the aoe damage that should be more significant now it's already competitive....
1) If your rotation contains CoI or IT or ST, set L to 0.5.
2) If your rotation contains 2 of the above, set L to 0.33.
3) If your rotation contains all 3, set L to 0.25.
4) If your rotation contains OF, set L to 0.8.
5) If your rotation contains 2) and 4) , set L to 0.29.
6) If your rotation contains 3) and 4), set L to 0.22
If your rotation contains none of the above, set L to 0.9.
You will see for IT and CoI, flaming is still, *slightly* better than dread/vorp, but on pretty much every other skill, it will be rubbish. If the devs were to change flaming though, I wouldn't raise the dps of the DoT but rather increase the number of times it stacks to stick with the theme of the enchant.
What irritates me is that if you look in those graphs, for some of them, Bilethorn drops below 0. If you actually go and test Bilethorn, this behavior is actually mimicked in test results. Literally slotting no enchant is better in some cases.
Also, @rgutscheradev I think the bug with the lightning arc is also the reason it procs abyss of chaos and is also related to this bug report here. The arc likely counts as a separate entity, so it doesn't benefit from your power or attribute bonus because it isn't related to your toon.
Give Terror some love \o/
Making its DR debuff actually 4% rather than mitigate down to 1,2% would help, as well as increasing its PvP debuff up to 30% from current 20%.
I second the opinion stated above. Please do make terror meaningful to use for end game content where most of the stuff matters. At svardborg , terror actually drops to 0.9% effectiveness .. It cannot compete with enchants of similar nature such as plague fire and whats more funny is the debuffs coming from the dps oriented enchantments like dread and vorpal give higher debuffs than terror for end game content. The major problem with terror is the multiple levels of mitigation it undergoes which no other enchantment suffers. I will never ask to buff something to overpowered levels and my only feedback at this point is just allow Terror to not be affected by enemy DR for PVE. you can keep it's functionality to respect the cap at 200% effectiveness and allow the 75% effectiveness on level 73 Enemies. This change would mean that terror would still perform at a capped 3% debuff for end game content and perform with full functionality at lower tiered content. All i'm asking is to toss a lifeline to a dying enchantment. When the review for weapon enchants happens in the future where in you actually start fixing bugs we will be able to assess how well terror performs by then and tweaks can be made later on if need be but at its current state its simply cannot even compete with the others. It's like entering an arena and getting a KO in your face right there. That's how it feels using terror compared to the others. Now while talking about pve , we cant leave pvp behind
That is probably a better comparisson and since the weapon damage based damage went up and the debuff on target is not enough to justify use in fast stacking cases increasing the debuff makes sence.
If you mean in a team with high debuffs it's influence goes down......it's supposed other enchants go as well, what i dont agree is mobs being "terrified" only by 1 terro (only tried R12).
Bug: Lightning Enchantment Burst.
The burst still does 33% of 32% weapon damage, not 33% of 25%.
For some masochistic reason I am also accounting for *most* of the bugs with these enchantments, so when the bugs get fixed, I will need to fix my values as well <.<
1 thing to note is I am trying to come up with a better way to bias the flaming and plaguefire, I will stick with the default value of 1 for the graphs since that fits the initial conditions for the test, however, for the sake of any meaningful comparisons, until I find a better way to calculate L (and I will probably move its position in the equation around) I recommend a minimum value of 0.318 and a maximum of 0.4
The bug on feytouched still prevails for HR ^ and CW but SW apparently is good now but new bug appeared, with feytouched using essence defiler im hitting myself for 0 damage.
Also did some dps comparisson (all on lvl 73) and results are good, lightning is very good for multi target but nothing exescive i tried 3 "laders" 8 mobs, 4 mobs, 3 mobs, bilethorn damage it's very good not to the point of lightning in multi target , flaming not bad but underperforming. I dont understand the lvl 73 mitigation part, do lvl 73 mobs have critical severity resist? And why can CW's stack plague and flaming beyond 3 stacks? (i tried all in gwf/cw and TR)
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Good luck to those testing to make the game better, and hamster you to those trying to push their own agendas
@treesclimber
maybe it will be interesting for you: Fire buff from Wheel of Elements does 30%*0.75=22.5% damage against 73lvl. Also, Stronhold PvE Slayer Enchantments does 3.75%/7.5% vs 73lvl (instead 5%/10%). Blade Hurricane (HR melee capstone) does 165%*0.75 damage.
I think that is the wrong mechanic. Damage is mitigated twice. First time 75% of self damage skill (100%*0.75). The second time, the damage from the additional hit (buff, enchantment, feat) is mitigated again (Wheel: 100%*0.75*0.30*0.75).
1: either keep the 20 seconds but boost Damage alot more
2: or add other effect into it to do DPS/Debuff
its essentially a build up then an explosion of said effect(S)
Suggestion for flaming:
Flaming AOE Explosion but with a cascade effect
When you reach 20 seconds and it explodes "you" being the source it then explodes in a ring of fire outwords (20-30')
1 Primary Explosion and 2 secondry times Each enemy caught in each tier of the Explosion has a fire dot on them
tier 1 1.5k ES - 3 seconds
tier 2 3k ES - 4 second
tier 3 5k ES - 5 seconds
Lifedrinker should be similar too the Feytouch but when triggered increases lifesteal chance 8% an siphons power and defense by 8% for like 10seconds on a cooldown of 20sec's at [Pure]
something like that.
While you're doing all this tweaking can u guys do sth about Stacking debuffs from different players with the same enchants ?
Enchants with stacking debuffs (pf, terror etc) don't stack on a target if they're the same rank.
It's kind of a shame since ppl spend millions of ad for upgrading, only to have their enchant's effect negated if there's someone in a group with the same one.
I'm not saying they should all stack together, everything would melt on sight, but can there be some kind of other added bonus ?
Like a minor incremental increase of the debuff for x number of players using the same rank ench, etc etc ?
Or maybe a completely new bonus for the multiple player stacks per identical level of enchant ?
Just a thought.
Do people like having the tooltip adjust in this way? I agree it's a bit weird, but it felt to me on balance more comprehensible (at least for the average player) than just showing the base percentage all the time. And it's way less wordy than adding a sentence that says something like "This damage is scaled by your Power (and by all the other things that normally scale your damage)".
Lets reword the vorpal mechanic to:
On critical hits, deal 50% of your non crit damage as an additional hit.
This is effectively another way of describing how vorpal works (it nets the same %dps increase), only, it procs off every hit on the crits of encounters, not just once per encounter use. Whilst I know from a balance perspective cases like Imprisonment need to be fixed, these enchantments cannot compete at all if they don't multiproc off some skills. If for example we look at Icy Terrain, the skill itself does next to no damage, what makes it strong is its ability to proc stuff multiple times.
From a personal standpoint, I have both dread and vorp so if this is what this change means, all it means is I will stick with dread and vorp. However, I would really like an excuse to use something else, so please don't take that away
*edit*
Also, time to redo all my graphs again
You're going to destroy the CW and force it to stick with vorpal/dread if this is the case. That imprisonment bug and perhaps toning down steal time to only a few procs is all you need.
"if some specialized builds find that another WE is BiS now, that can be OK, as long as it’s not too extreme (again, we don’t want to totally nuke large numbers of people who have invested in their current WE)."
What will hapen is exactly the oposite, enchantments dealing too extreme low damage.