beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Keep in mind that any rework of Spheres that wouldn't involve firing when enemies are in range would require a new animation, which takes a lot longer to implement.
Not saying it's a bad idea, just utterly impossible for this set of changes, and would require more substantial time budgeting down the road than may be feasible.
Haha, yeah, we do get off on different tangents, but I think everyone that has been regularly contributing to this thread is passionate about the game and future development of the SW class.
Different people have different ideas on how the class can/should perform. It's fun to discuss and you never know what will come out of it.
I don't have a problem with slapping realistic ideas against the wall because others come on here and refine those ideas. For instance, I really like the refined concept of Shadow Slip offering an ability such as, "Incoming damage is reduced by x%. This benefit is reduced x% per second and may only be reapplied once per x seconds." While not exactly what we wanted, part of this concept is now on the preview server.
My focus, regarding PVP, will stay shift mechanic and dodge because dodge is the only real option to prevent onehits, and thats needed in the end. A cooldown on shift meachanic will not do i fear and the timing is hard to handle beside the fact that animation canceling is a big issue in PVP.
My suggestion to ShadowSlip would look like this: 1. skip that 100%-80-60-40 + CD 2. give shift a second layer with let´s say 3 or 4 charges to dodge, maybe activated by double pressing shift, reacharging in about 10 seconds or 15 seconds so double-shift= dodge ,maybe pressing 2x w-a-s-d could be an alternativ, atm it activates shift holding shift = slip
thx tressclimber but I don´t get it done
0
ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
edited July 2016
I kinda like the idea of trying to push defensive SW builds that are up close and personal that's all about buffing and punishing attackers.
We could use more love for a play style like this by making hand of blight's melee variant an AoE. Aside from the debuff there's almost zero reward for smacking things up close vs just shooting them.
Spheres/Blades/Pillar of Power, melee attacks, hellish rebuke with some further buffs. Would make for an interesting play style rather than just shoot death beams from afar.
@schietindebux downside about double-tapping is console users. Too difficult to double-tap joystick to dodge.
I was messing around with BoVA on xbox and noticed it REALLY needs to be unaffected by CC--I hope this has not been reverted back.
BoVA requires the SW to engage in close quarters combat, which is precisely where enemies can engage you to prematurely cancel the encounter. A couple examples:
Hook, Line, and Sinker 2 mini-boss Thormund Thirstqvencher (sp?) can prematurely cancel BoVA *without advertising a red AoE*. At least you can stay at range with dreadtheft to avoid encounter canceling.
Throne of the Dwarven Gods is a nightmare of critters with frequent red AoE stuns that negate dreadtheft and BoVA.
Keep in mind that any rework of Spheres that wouldn't involve firing when enemies are in range would require a new animation, which takes a lot longer to implement.
Not saying it's a bad idea, just utterly impossible for this set of changes, and would require more substantial time budgeting down the road than may be feasible.
Ohh I keep in mid and always calculate how much time would take to develop. And most my ideas are around already existing mechanics in game..
Do u think it would need to develop newly idea, that expended Infernal Spheres would push monsters away? Nop, such mechanic is already within game, and its DC's Sun burst. Enough to change color or even keep same. Infernal spheres passive mode as I suggested.. Copy barkshield enchantment mechanic, keep that it would generate layers to absorb x dmg and thats it. And would work even in such way.
My one of hobby where game mod creation. I loved take game, twist around already developed mechanic and create better ones. And I know what creating from scratch is pain in a-_-s. Thats why I only suggest with what we already have.
Wraith of shadow
that rIn some of my posts I suggested to change Wraith of shadow effects. Instead as its now, u hit target with This encounter apply DoT, if he cursed hit encounter again and wraith of shadow changes to Aoe immobility CC. I suggestedemove immobility effect from this power. Rather go with: If target not cursed, u apply DoT and reducing affected monsters outgoing dmg. If target cursed, u shoot spider web same as Syndrith High Priestess of Lolth in Temple of Spiders. So it would make aoe CC with slow down + DoT + reduced dmg output for affected targets. So aoe effect is already in game, just need relocate from Syndrith High Priestess of Lolth to warlock
Alternative Shadow slip
Some time ago even suggest that warlock shadow slip would work as TR stealth mode, thats mean once warlock hit shift its become invisible. Once player release shift button warlock returns to normal mode.. Keep in mid, that in stealth mode warlock would not be able use any powers..
The list is long either for defensive or offensive, crafting, housing, three side team pvp or other stuffs. 90% of them are already in game. I do not suggest to make something radically new which would require rebuilding game engine.
Haha, yeah, we do get off on different tangents, but I think everyone that has been regularly contributing to this thread is passionate about the game and future development of the SW class.
Different people have different ideas on how the class can/should perform. It's fun to discuss and you never know what will come out of it.
For instance, I really like the refined concept of Shadow Slip offering an ability such as, "Incoming damage is reduced by x%. This benefit is reduced x% per second and may only be reapplied once per x seconds." While not exactly what we wanted, part of this concept is now on the preview server.
I am 100% for such idea.. But as always, I would like to see how it performs in action, not on paper
I kinda like the idea of trying to push defensive SW builds that are up close and personal that's all about buffing and punishing attackers. We could use more love for a play style like this by making hand of blight's melee variant an AoE. Aside from the debuff there's almost zero reward for smacking things up close vs just shooting them. Spheres/Blades/Pillar of Power, melee attacks, hellish rebuke with some further buffs. Would make for an interesting play style rather than just shoot death beams from afar.
personally I would like to give warlock ability to choose, how he want to fight, either in close range, or in range.. More space in possible builds = more fun. Not only sticking with only range or melee.
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
Ok so I just did two runs at CN with DPS team, DC, GF, GWF, CW dps + me.
1st I was using single-target rotation like on live. I sucked a lot. I was keeping up on boss fights but on mobs I was more debuffing than doing damage (infernal wrath, dread etc. etc.). Overall it really ended badly while looking on damage dealt.
2nd I was changing my rotation, I messed up a respec a little so I was using Curse Bite, BoVA and... Arms of Hadar on trash + KF/BoVA/SS on bosses. It worked quite well (considering Murderous Flames is still not working @amenar. On the end it was like 53kk GWF, 50 CW, 47 SW (we all were 3.0-3.5 iLVL) so it wasnt that bad, especially without MF and with Arms of Hadar.
And - while 2nd run was kinda looking good, changing all 3 encounters each time is a pain - we're double punished for our long cooldowns: first we've to wait until cooldown is off to change encounter and then we have to wait until it's cooldown is off.
Arms of Hadar could be nice but the animation is so wrecked up I don't even know where it strikes. Apparently I have two arms of hadar (oh, maybe that's why it's plural in name). When I stand straight both are hitting upfront me, when I look in left/right, one is hitting there, second still upfront, so I even don't know where hitbox are - seriously, wtf?
But as conclusion - GWF are fine and doesn't bother at all with current changes while SW, especially lower geared my lack in damage. What's more interesting SW got really a lot in survivability. We later did 2 heroic encounters in new module (5 man party) and it looked really good. But still - SW is a striker and the damage should be increased a bit - we're keeping up on survivability with the rest, make us keep with damage too.
Mod 10: [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Killing Flames deals 16636893 (1009292) Fire Damage to Ethraniev Marrowslake.
Mod 9: [Combat (Self)] Your Murderous Flames deals 376274433 (18876929) Fire Damage to Red Tiamat Head.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
edited July 2016
Well, what's working so well for CWs and their AoEs are the additional sources of DPS added to their powers, like spell storm, smolder, Thaum feats, abyss of chaos, ect.
SW only has that 50% weapon damage after a crit to further buff their output. Doesn't affect harrowstorm though so that power remains a joke.
Blades and a few others still could use some buffs.
Feedback Took 2 toons to WoD, SW 4k, 2.6k OP (old build from many months ago) No respecs, just play as i play them on live now.
General trash both toons easy going, no issues.
HE's - different story. SW struggled and died quite quickly OP was invincible and and easily completed anything. It could also pull all the mobs and deal with them easily.
My observation is that the tanking abilities are so significantly higher proportionally to a tanking class than DPS is to a striker class.
In a "Perfect World" their should be a constant shared across dps/control/survivability. At the moment, SW's DPS in this ratio not represented proportionately correctly and the OP's tanking ability is excessively represented.
Howdy all - A few more quick upcoming patch notes. These might hit preview as early as tomorrow, but might not make it til early next week.
Scourge Warlock: Harrowstorm: The previously mentioned 50% damage buff should actually work now. In addition, the damage reported on the tooltip should be accurate.
Scourge Warlock: Feat: Creeping Death: Now deals its damage over 6 seconds (4 times, once every 1.5s) instead of over 8 seconds (4 times, once every 2s).
FEEDBACK: Infernal Spheres You should be able to use encounter once again after the initial activation/summoning of the spheres to fire them off or decide to keep them for boosting DR, similarly to CW shield. Otherwise whole implementation is useless cause 1. you don't need heals at the begining of the combat where the spheres will fire off all at once at random target(s) 2. When this happens you don't gain DR which is always cause after casting spheres imediately hits something.
All Warlock created DoTs are weaker than GF Knee Breaker encounter power (ex. Freya).
FEEDBACK: Infernal Spheres (Power): Instead of having this power fire off automatically every .5 seconds why not have it trigger whenever the Warlock is damaged. This would trigger the attack, healing, and degrade the defense only when the warlock is attacked. Also have the cool down trigger when the power is first used and allow it to be refreshed back to it's original potency even if all spheres have not been expended.
Howdy all - A few more quick upcoming patch notes. These might hit preview as early as tomorrow, but might not make it til early next week.
Scourge Warlock: Harrowstorm: The previously mentioned 50% damage buff should actually work now. In addition, the damage reported on the tooltip should be accurate.
Scourge Warlock: Feat: Creeping Death: Now deals its damage over 6 seconds (4 times, once every 1.5s) instead of over 8 seconds (4 times, once every 2s).
Scourge Warlock: Feat: Murderous Flames: Now works with Killing Flames Rank 4.
Scourge Warlock: Artifact Class Feature: All-Consuming Curse: Now works with All-Consuming Curse Rank 4.
Also, someone asked about Curse Bite generating AP - it does, and it uses the same formula as the other Encounter powers.
Since this balancing started, I wondering, what kind limitation we have. Do there plan to cut/replace some powers. Or just stick with them and hope that some adjustments will be Ok? Plus question does warlocks balancing final planed with mod 10 introduction?
Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
and/or you may lose spheres if damaged, similar to CW shield.
Do you guys have a camera in here? This is what I was working on. The patch note will be:
Scourge Warlock: Infernal Spheres: No longer attacks enemies that get near you. Instead, sends a sphere out to targets that attack you.
@amenar I know I would be pushing me luck here, but would it be possible at some point to have some "test weapons" introduced to the game with low damage (so that they would only be used for testing) no power and a constant range on weapon damage (for example 100-100). This would make it a lot easier for us to test things and provide better feedback (you know, like that essence defiler hitting for a convenient 1000, having a more consistent damage range would be a HUGE benefit to us). Also, thanks for all the great work all round
@amenar I know I would be pushing me luck here, but would it be possible at some point to have some "test weapons" introduced to the game with low damage (so that they would only be used for testing) no power and a constant range on weapon damage (for example 100-100). This would make it a lot easier for us to test things and provide better feedback (you know, like that essence defiler hitting for a convenient 1000, having a more consistent damage range would be a HUGE benefit to us). Also, thanks for all the great work all round
They are super convenient, and I use them all the time.
We have made a set for every class that we use internally for functionality testing. I'll mention to the team that you guys would be interested in having them available.
- use encounter - if mob hits you, lose a sphere. Sphere attacks mob and heals you, but you lose DR. - automatically regenerate spheres over time. - activating the encounter when spheres are present shoots all spheres out.
= win
0
ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
@amenar Can you buff killing flames damage a bit? maybe ~30%? Also arms of hadar, it coude use a ~30% buff over the existing one? Ohh and what about making flames of phelgethos a single target only and boost it's damage by 100~130%? i would love to see ppl melting on pvp
We realy need something to put fear on ppl, like CW has that huge ice knife, tr got SE, GWF have IBS/IS, HR got a AS/tons of cc, DC are immortal, OP also immortal, GF have AoD/IS. and SW have nothing
KF needs to deal equal damage across the board, regardless of the enemy's HP and/or have the cooldown reduced. Let's be real, it was only sexy when murderous flames was bugged.
We realy need something to put fear on ppl, like CW has that huge ice knife, tr got SE, GWF have IBS/IS, HR got a AS/tons of cc, DC are immortal, OP also immortal, GF have AoD/IS. and SW have nothing
PThey afraid that they will laugh of SW performance to point they can blank out or their character explode form laugh and die. (sorry for sarcasm).
and/or you may lose spheres if damaged, similar to CW shield.
Do you guys have a camera in here? This is what I was working on. The patch note will be:
Scourge Warlock: Infernal Spheres: No longer attacks enemies that get near you. Instead, sends a sphere out to targets that attack you.
Scenario A pvp: U are fighting along your team mate. Lets say u both attacking GF who is in team with OP or whatever. U can use only 2 encounters. Infernal spheres will not do anything until one of enemies hit u. And even if do hit, only 1 sphere will start went out = poor dmg per hit. = U watch how team mate die in pool of blood, in pain and agony cursing and swearing that striker warlock lack dps capability . = no big reason for my HB to use it, I already have problems with DoT...
Scenario B with party u are in dungeon. tank hold boss with agro, Boss will not hit u = Infernal spheres can't be used for attacking. = if i will use it I give up kinda lot dps.. < and warlock bargain would provide more higher survivability than this new IS version ..
But this is in theory . Waiting to see in action. And hopping that HB will get brighter days
Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
@ghoulz66 Eldritch Blast is an AoE at-will. Smart SWs use hand of blight with main hand bonus for PvP debuff.
Ha, have you tried clearing packs with that? It's as much of a pack clearer as Arms of Hadar, no, it's worst. I'm talking about a true AoE like cleave or WMS. And please stop talking about the pvp debuff...
Just listen. Even Fernu agrees that the SW's AoE DPS is still lacking.
Comments
Not saying it's a bad idea, just utterly impossible for this set of changes, and would require more substantial time budgeting down the road than may be feasible.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Different people have different ideas on how the class can/should perform. It's fun to discuss and you never know what will come out of it.
I don't have a problem with slapping realistic ideas against the wall because others come on here and refine those ideas. For instance, I really like the refined concept of Shadow Slip offering an ability such as, "Incoming damage is reduced by x%. This benefit is reduced x% per second and may only be reapplied once per x seconds." While not exactly what we wanted, part of this concept is now on the preview server.
My suggestion to ShadowSlip would look like this:
1. skip that 100%-80-60-40 + CD
2. give shift a second layer with let´s say 3 or 4 charges to dodge, maybe activated by double pressing shift, reacharging in about 10 seconds or 15 seconds
so double-shift= dodge ,maybe pressing 2x w-a-s-d could be an alternativ, atm it activates shift
holding shift = slip
thx tressclimber but I don´t get it done
We could use more love for a play style like this by making hand of blight's melee variant an AoE. Aside from the debuff there's almost zero reward for smacking things up close vs just shooting them.
Spheres/Blades/Pillar of Power, melee attacks, hellish rebuke with some further buffs. Would make for an interesting play style rather than just shoot death beams from afar.
I was messing around with BoVA on xbox and noticed it REALLY needs to be unaffected by CC--I hope this has not been reverted back.
BoVA requires the SW to engage in close quarters combat, which is precisely where enemies can engage you to prematurely cancel the encounter. A couple examples:
Hook, Line, and Sinker 2 mini-boss Thormund Thirstqvencher (sp?) can prematurely cancel BoVA *without advertising a red AoE*. At least you can stay at range with dreadtheft to avoid encounter canceling.
Throne of the Dwarven Gods is a nightmare of critters with frequent red AoE stuns that negate dreadtheft and BoVA.
Do u think it would need to develop newly idea, that expended Infernal Spheres would push monsters away? Nop, such mechanic is already within game, and its DC's Sun burst.
Enough to change color or even keep same.
Infernal spheres passive mode as I suggested.. Copy barkshield enchantment mechanic, keep that it would generate layers to absorb x dmg and thats it. And would work even in such way.
My one of hobby where game mod creation. I loved take game, twist around already developed mechanic and create better ones.
And I know what creating from scratch is pain in a-_-s. Thats why I only suggest with what we already have.
Wraith of shadow
I suggestedemove immobility effect from this power.
Rather go with:
If target not cursed, u apply DoT and reducing affected monsters outgoing dmg.
If target cursed, u shoot spider web same as Syndrith High Priestess of Lolth in Temple of Spiders. So it would make aoe CC with slow down + DoT + reduced dmg output for affected targets.
So aoe effect is already in game, just need relocate from Syndrith High Priestess of Lolth to warlock
Alternative Shadow slip
The list is long either for defensive or offensive, crafting, housing, three side team pvp or other stuffs. 90% of them are already in game.
I do not suggest to make something radically new which would require rebuilding game engine.
Thats why it called mmo
I am 100% for such idea.. But as always, I would like to see how it performs in action, not on paper
personally I would like to give warlock ability to choose, how he want to fight, either in close range, or in range.. More space in possible builds = more fun. Not only sticking with only range or melee.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
1st I was using single-target rotation like on live. I sucked a lot. I was keeping up on boss fights but on mobs I was more debuffing than doing damage (infernal wrath, dread etc. etc.). Overall it really ended badly while looking on damage dealt.
2nd I was changing my rotation, I messed up a respec a little so I was using Curse Bite, BoVA and... Arms of Hadar on trash + KF/BoVA/SS on bosses. It worked quite well (considering Murderous Flames is still not working @amenar . On the end it was like 53kk GWF, 50 CW, 47 SW (we all were 3.0-3.5 iLVL) so it wasnt that bad, especially without MF and with Arms of Hadar.
And - while 2nd run was kinda looking good, changing all 3 encounters each time is a pain - we're double punished for our long cooldowns: first we've to wait until cooldown is off to change encounter and then we have to wait until it's cooldown is off.
Arms of Hadar could be nice but the animation is so wrecked up I don't even know where it strikes. Apparently I have two arms of hadar (oh, maybe that's why it's plural in name). When I stand straight both are hitting upfront me, when I look in left/right, one is hitting there, second still upfront, so I even don't know where hitbox are - seriously, wtf?
But as conclusion - GWF are fine and doesn't bother at all with current changes while SW, especially lower geared my lack in damage. What's more interesting SW got really a lot in survivability. We later did 2 heroic encounters in new module (5 man party) and it looked really good. But still - SW is a striker and the damage should be increased a bit - we're keeping up on survivability with the rest, make us keep with damage too.
Mod 10:
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Killing Flames deals 16636893 (1009292) Fire Damage to Ethraniev Marrowslake.
Mod 9:
[Combat (Self)] Your Murderous Flames deals 376274433 (18876929) Fire Damage to Red Tiamat Head.
SW only has that 50% weapon damage after a crit to further buff their output. Doesn't affect harrowstorm though so that power remains a joke.
Blades and a few others still could use some buffs.
Have you done any tests with HB?
Mod 10:
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Killing Flames deals 16636893 (1009292) Fire Damage to Ethraniev Marrowslake.
Mod 9:
[Combat (Self)] Your Murderous Flames deals 376274433 (18876929) Fire Damage to Red Tiamat Head.
Took 2 toons to WoD, SW 4k, 2.6k OP (old build from many months ago)
No respecs, just play as i play them on live now.
General trash both toons easy going, no issues.
HE's - different story.
SW struggled and died quite quickly
OP was invincible and and easily completed anything. It could also pull all the mobs and deal with them easily.
My observation is that the tanking abilities are so significantly higher proportionally to a tanking class than DPS is to a striker class.
In a "Perfect World" their should be a constant shared across dps/control/survivability.
At the moment, SW's DPS in this ratio not represented proportionately correctly and the OP's tanking ability is excessively represented.
- Scourge Warlock: Harrowstorm: The previously mentioned 50% damage buff should actually work now. In addition, the damage reported on the tooltip should be accurate.
- Scourge Warlock: Feat: Creeping Death: Now deals its damage over 6 seconds (4 times, once every 1.5s) instead of over 8 seconds (4 times, once every 2s).
- Scourge Warlock: Vampiric Embrace: Damage increased ~60%.
- Scourge Warlock: Feat: Murderous Flames: Now works with Killing Flames Rank 4.
- Scourge Warlock: Artifact Class Feature: All-Consuming Curse: Now works with All-Consuming Curse Rank 4.
Also, someone asked about Curse Bite generating AP - it does, and it uses the same formula as the other Encounter powers.FEEDBACK: Infernal Spheres (Power): Instead of having this power fire off automatically every .5 seconds why not have it trigger whenever the Warlock is damaged. This would trigger the attack, healing, and degrade the defense only when the warlock is attacked. Also have the cool down trigger when the power is first used and allow it to be refreshed back to it's original potency even if all spheres have not been expended.
Plus question does warlocks balancing final planed with mod 10 introduction?
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
We have made a set for every class that we use internally for functionality testing. I'll mention to the team that you guys would be interested in having them available. The easy first implementation was this, but it doesn't feel great, so I'm looking to see what I can do.
Still hoping for improvement for hellish rebuke.
I beg you, ask the TOP MEN.
- use encounter
- if mob hits you, lose a sphere. Sphere attacks mob and heals you, but you lose DR.
- automatically regenerate spheres over time.
- activating the encounter when spheres are present shoots all spheres out.
= win
What do you think about making Hand of Blight Melee into an AoE? It currently has no DPS advantage over other at-wills.
Also arms of hadar, it coude use a ~30% buff over the existing one?
Ohh and what about making flames of phelgethos a single target only and boost it's damage by 100~130%? i would love to see ppl melting on pvp
Scenario A
pvp: U are fighting along your team mate. Lets say u both attacking GF who is in team with OP or whatever. U can use only 2 encounters. Infernal spheres will not do anything until one of enemies hit u. And even if do hit, only 1 sphere will start went out = poor dmg per hit. = U watch how team mate die in pool of blood, in pain and agony cursing and swearing that striker warlock lack dps capability . = no big reason for my HB to use it, I already have problems with DoT...
Scenario B with party u are in dungeon. tank hold boss with agro, Boss will not hit u = Infernal spheres can't be used for attacking. = if i will use it I give up kinda lot dps.. < and warlock bargain would provide more higher survivability than this new IS version ..
But this is in theory . Waiting to see in action. And hopping that HB will get brighter days
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
Besides, why limit a power's usefulness for just pvp? SW desperately needs more AoE in PVE.
Just listen. Even Fernu agrees that the SW's AoE DPS is still lacking.