I'd say at the very most 1 in 10 matches are playable because of the lack of matching. In most cases it's obvious within 30 seconds (after your team are all one shotted before capping anything) that you have no chance. Sometimes the premade teams won't even allow you to cap after this and will just stomp on you if you leave camp, meaning a 30 min ban or just sitting there doing nothing for no reward at all.
Those are probably not premades. Most premades will let you cap so you can have your AD reward. Those are probably players that have been heavily stomped previously and ended up in an uber team and just want to get their revenge on someone else lol.
They're usually from the well known pvp guilds, and who group in 3s to avoid going against other premades, i.e. to pug stomp.
This is what I'm trying to say. We keep saying that what needs to happen in pvp is separating premades from pugs, but on the other hand we avoid being in premades so we don't have to face off against other premades. I think the separation of premades from pugs is already happening, something else is wrong with pvp match making. Another suggestion is separating players in terms of per item level, which sounds like a good idea, I just don't think we will be happy with the result (1 hour queue).
A premade of 3 is still a premade, especially when they're 3.5k+ against pugs.
I've noticed lately that it's very rare to see people below 2.3k or so at all any more. This is quite clearly because people know that you'll get stomped and it's a total waste of time.
Isn't that wonderful? The game is incapable of getting in new pvp players to invest into the game. Even if they buy ADs it doesn't help them. They need the pvp gear and high end enchants to compete. The fat whales have a choke hold on the game, preventing new players from playing and investing into this game....
Another idea was suggested to me by someone that doesn't post in these forums. I think it could be viable, so I post it now for your discussion. TBH... I think the only way pvp will get 'fixed' is if the fix comes from the players and Cryptic only has to implement it.
It's a simple algorithm based on Item Level... where the total item level from any team is added together to produce a team level. These teams are then only matched with teams that have the same total (with a plus/minus allowance). This would allow a single queue to work for all players. If a premade maxed out team joined as a group, their total would be high enough that ONLY another premade team of maxed out players could be matched with them. If a single maxed out player queued, they would be matched against a team with a similar total item level team, which in all likelihood, would need to contain a similar geared player on the opposing team.
I don't believe a players item level is part of whatever algorithm is used now. I make this statement after recording the total item level from teams I've been on, VS teams I've been 'matched' against... I did this over the course of 15 matches, and in almost every case, the totals had differences of 5K or more (some were much much more, in one case the difference was over 11K). Meaning one team was so obviously better geared than the other, as to guarantee a one sided match.
There would need to be some sort of 'safe guard', to prevent players from taking gear off while being matched to lower their iL, only to put the gear on again once the match had started. But I'm sure something along the lines of preventing gear from being equipped/unequipped during the match, should solve this problem.
I realise that any solution, and therefore any altering of the current queue system, might result in longer queue times. And while I certainly don't pretend to speak for the player base as a whole, I will say for myself personally, I would rather wait a little longer to get a match I can actually compete in, than to be matched quickly in matches I literally have no chance to compete in.
Maybe... using the idea I posted above this, players could be slotted into groups... maybe something along the lines of... 0-500 iL : Group A 501-1000 iL : Group B 1001-1500 iL : Group C
etc etc...., these 'groups' could then be used in an algorithm to form the teams for a match.
I realise that any solution, and therefore any altering of the current queue system, might result in longer queue times. And while I certainly don't pretend to speak for the player base as a whole, I will say for myself personally, I would rather wait a little longer to get a match I can actually compete in, than to be matched quickly in matches I literally have no chance to compete in.
Maybe... using the idea I posted above this, players could be slotted into groups... maybe something along the lines of... 0-500 iL : Group A 501-1000 iL : Group B 1001-1500 iL : Group C
etc etc...., these 'groups' could then be used in an algorithm to form the teams for a match.
Didn't they work on something like this before? I remember a time when the forums was filled with people getting angry that pvp queue was taking over an hour.
"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself." -Danilo Thann[/quote]
A premade of 3 is still a premade, especially when they're 3.5k+ against pugs.
I've noticed lately that it's very rare to see people below 2.3k or so at all any more. This is quite clearly because people know that you'll get stomped and it's a total waste of time.
You're probably not playing enough, and there was a refinement event and a halloween artifact that gave everyone a noticeable ilvl boost.
I realise that any solution, and therefore any altering of the current queue system, might result in longer queue times. And while I certainly don't pretend to speak for the player base as a whole, I will say for myself personally, I would rather wait a little longer to get a match I can actually compete in, than to be matched quickly in matches I literally have no chance to compete in.
Maybe... using the idea I posted above this, players could be slotted into groups... maybe something along the lines of... 0-500 iL : Group A 501-1000 iL : Group B 1001-1500 iL : Group C
etc etc...., these 'groups' could then be used in an algorithm to form the teams for a match.
Didn't they work on something like this before? I remember a time when the forums was filled with people getting angry that pvp queue was taking over an hour.
To be frank, I'd say tough. The people who complain are the ones who are getting the easy stomp wins. Who wants to queue for 15 minutes just to get wiped out in 15 seconds and spend the rest of the match trading caps or sitting at camp?
If Cryptic is going to sort this mess out it's going to mean longer queues to start with in order to make people (other than the top geared pvp guilds) start playing again. Then queues will shorten.
A premade of 3 is still a premade, especially when they're 3.5k+ against pugs.
I've noticed lately that it's very rare to see people below 2.3k or so at all any more. This is quite clearly because people know that you'll get stomped and it's a total waste of time.
You're probably not playing enough, and there was a refinement event and a halloween artifact that gave everyone a noticeable ilvl boost.
I play every day. I tend to look at my team and the enemy team (since most matches aren't PVP, they effectively end within a minute) and it's almost all well geared people. You can't get to 2.5k on a lvl 60 Illusionist Mask.
I play every day. I tend to look at my team and the enemy team (since most matches aren't PVP, they effectively end within a minute) and it's almost all well geared people. You can't get to 2.5k on a lvl 60 Illusionist Mask.
The mask is 69 ilvl in a slot many people had 0 ilvl from. Throw in a refining event and their other artifacts are up from green/blue to purple/orange, and they probably got at least one artifact weapon up to purple, and several other artifact gears to at least blue. That's easily several hundred ilvl, and can easily convert an ~2k player (which is rather easy to get to; the biggest obstructions to it are probably pants and shirt) to an ~2.5k player.
And I wouldn't really call 2.5k "well geared" in the context of pvp. You're not worthlessly pathetic, unless your ilvl doesn't include pvp gear at all, but you will still routinely find yourself utterly ineffectual against one or more of your opponents.
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dragoness10Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 780Arc User
Sorry, I keep reading BIS as "Black Ice Special", which would be me.
" I tried to figure out the enigma that was you, and then I realized mastering Wild Magic was easier." - Old Wizard in Waterdeep
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
I play every day. I tend to look at my team and the enemy team (since most matches aren't PVP, they effectively end within a minute) and it's almost all well geared people. You can't get to 2.5k on a lvl 60 Illusionist Mask.
The mask is 69 ilvl in a slot many people had 0 ilvl from. Throw in a refining event and their other artifacts are up from green/blue to purple/orange, and they probably got at least one artifact weapon up to purple, and several other artifact gears to at least blue. That's easily several hundred ilvl, and can easily convert an ~2k player (which is rather easy to get to; the biggest obstructions to it are probably pants and shirt) to an ~2.5k player.
And I wouldn't really call 2.5k "well geared" in the context of pvp. You're not worthlessly pathetic, unless your ilvl doesn't include pvp gear at all, but you will still routinely find yourself utterly ineffectual against one or more of your opponents.
You're not replying to what I said though. Go back a few months and it included people from 1.8k to 2.5k almost always in pvp, as well as higher. Now it's mostly only 2.5k-3k, except for the premades, where it's usually 3-4k.
Best in slot pvp gear (without SH stuff), purple artifact weapons, a full set of purple artifacts, and all r7/r8 enchantments, and you'll just about reach 2.5k. That's well geared by any normal standard, unless you're basing it on people who've bought loads of r12s.
(Also, when I look at people's gear, very few have the illusionist mask).
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urlord283Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,084Arc User
It seems the matching for GG PVP is much better
I almost never play standard PVP... but GG looks better
I almost never play standard PVP... but GG looks better
Both the pvp grounds have teams made up of maxed geared players VS non geared players.
Tonight for example... I joined 23 matches. And 23 times I was 'matched' with players I have no chance of competing with. In 23 matches, I was unable to get ONE win to get my daily seal.
That isn't just 'broken'... it's useless. Shame on Cryptic for letting something so obviously not functioning go on and on, while they spam us with new content to add yet MORE bugs to their already broken platform.
This is what passes for pvp in this game. It's not occasionally, it's not sometimes, it's in 95% or more of EVERY pvp match that happens EVERY day.
So where are the forum mods to tell me 'the situation is being looked into', or something that let's the player base know that the game devs are at least aware of how badly broken it is. Instead of wasting time with adding content to simply add more bugs (that then won't get fixed either).
You must admit, this guy's bad luck is legendary. I do have a few ~2K alts that I PvP around with sometimes and it takes them around 2-3 tries most days to get their teals. Any higher than that and I usually just cut my losses and do something else.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
biggest problem is the disbalance and broken classes/enchants/feats/boons etc. a 3k GWF without Feytouched+negation+lolset is an easy target a 3k GWF with all that will stomp a hole team f.e.
you can have a 2,3k char slotting some T negation+T Feytouched+ lolset on him and you beat any 3k char so balanceproblems will allways stay
during ncl lots of ppl take part and you have a system that works much better but having near no benefit beside some poor AD its allways facing 4k chars vs 2k, or meeting "semipremades" like 2-3 premade buddies who stomp for a few matches because noone wants to take part in a completely disbalanced PVP system just "for fun" knowing he gets stomped in a row
PVP at this state will stay a place for the "virtual rich ones" who earned, cheated or bought their stuff in former times
This is what passes for pvp in this game. It's not occasionally, it's not sometimes, it's in 95% or more of EVERY pvp match that happens EVERY day.
So where are the forum mods to tell me 'the situation is being looked into', or something that let's the player base know that the game devs are at least aware of how badly broken it is. Instead of wasting time with adding content to simply add more bugs (that then won't get fixed either).
I have to agree this is becoming absurd. I'm either on the winning by a mile team, or the team being beaten to the ground. In a month I've only played 2 games I can say i'm totally satisfied with.
"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself." -Danilo Thann[/quote]
Another day I'm unable to get ONE victory to get my daily seal. 17 matches, 17 over geared teams VS non geared players, 17 one sided slaughters. That's two nights in row, 40 matches total, where I was unable to get even a single victory for my daily seal.
So, I am going to do what so many others have done, and just give up. No more pvp for me. Another player chased away from the already dwindling pvp player base because there's absolutely NO way to catch up to players who have played for years.
Congratulations Cryptic on your epic failure to revamp what is clearly a very broken aspect of the game and denying players access to the full gaming experience.
0
vinceent1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,264Arc User
Another day I'm unable to get ONE victory to get my daily seal. 17 matches, 17 over geared teams VS non geared players, 17 one sided slaughters. That's two nights in row, 40 matches total, where I was unable to get even a single victory for my daily seal.
So, I am going to do what so many others have done, and just give up. No more pvp for me. Another player chased away from the already dwindling pvp player base because there's absolutely NO way to catch up to players who have played for years.
Congratulations Cryptic on your epic failure to revamp what is clearly a very broken aspect of the game and denying players access to the full gaming experience.
OMG why do you play Arena then, its probably occupied by premades if your numbers are right. just que for gauntlgrym battleground and you will get victory every second or third match, like everybody. be creative a litttle
Another day I'm unable to get ONE victory to get my daily seal. 17 matches, 17 over geared teams VS non geared players, 17 one sided slaughters. That's two nights in row, 40 matches total, where I was unable to get even a single victory for my daily seal.
So, I am going to do what so many others have done, and just give up. No more pvp for me. Another player chased away from the already dwindling pvp player base because there's absolutely NO way to catch up to players who have played for years.
Congratulations Cryptic on your epic failure to revamp what is clearly a very broken aspect of the game and denying players access to the full gaming experience.
OMG why do you play Arena then, its probably occupied by premades if your numbers are right. just que for gauntlgrym battleground and you will get victory every second or third match, like everybody. be creative a litttle
I queue for both, and have queued for strictly GG numerous times... always the same result. A pre made team of 3 (or more) over powered maximum geared players that wipe out my entire team. Doesn't matter which pvp arena I queue for, the current matching system does not allow you to avoid pre made teams of end game geared players.
The simple fact is Cryptic does not want new players to go to pvp. So they've made it impossible to farm the items needed to acquire end game pvp gear.
To be frank, I'd say tough. The people who complain are the ones who are getting the easy stomp wins. Who wants to queue for 15 minutes just to get wiped out in 15 seconds and spend the rest of the match trading caps or sitting at camp?
If Cryptic is going to sort this mess out it's going to mean longer queues to start with in order to make people (other than the top geared pvp guilds) start playing again. Then queues will shorten.
Well, I played, when they had 'better grouping', based on ELO, not IL. Que took 30 min- 1h (depending on your ranking). At the time there were 4k pages of ranked players in PvP. Now take 4k, divide it by the number of pages with ranked players atm and multiply it with 30 minutes. This is not exact, but the result should be solid. GL findiing ppl who want to wait for 2-4h for a PvP match.
BTW, matchmaking is a joke, as it is, we can agree on that.
To be frank, I'd say tough. The people who complain are the ones who are getting the easy stomp wins. Who wants to queue for 15 minutes just to get wiped out in 15 seconds and spend the rest of the match trading caps or sitting at camp?
If Cryptic is going to sort this mess out it's going to mean longer queues to start with in order to make people (other than the top geared pvp guilds) start playing again. Then queues will shorten.
Well, I played, when they had 'better grouping', based on ELO, not IL. Que took 30 min- 1h (depending on your ranking). At the time there were 4k pages of ranked players in PvP. Now take 4k, divide it by the number of pages with ranked players atm and multiply it with 30 minutes. This is not exact, but the result should be solid. GL findiing ppl who want to wait for 2-4h for a PvP match.
BTW, matchmaking is a joke, as it is, we can agree on that.
I don't think it's feasible to bring in ranked queuing at the moment because there's practically nobody under 2.5k playing pvp any more. Since I only pug-queue, and as a result lose at least 9/10 matches against a 3-5 man premade, when I do see someone at 2k or so, I see them getting one shotted constantly and understandably saying it's a lot of HAMSTER.
If instead they forced all players to queue solo or as 5 man premade, without mixing the two for matching, then you'd get a random scattering of high and low geared players in the pug queues. The PVP guilds that specialise in pug stomping by queuing in 3s and quitting any matches against other pvp guilds would not be able to do this any more. Lower geared players would actually win some matches. I think it would result, with time, in far shorter queues because at the moment only the highest geared players are taking part, and many of them are sick of PVP in this broken state.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: you have to be masochistic to PvP in Neverwinter as a new player, end of story.
Even more so if you are one of the poor sods who wants to make it work with free to play. I was already talking about how utterly screwed new players were in that area, two mods ago. Nobody cares over there, because nothing's been done about it.
In fact, I'd argue that they've made the situation decidedly worse in many ways.
So do yourself a favour: save your money and move on, if you like PvP in a MMO.
Hmm, why not make a league type thingy, premade partys, showing each partys players IL's and your team could choose which team to challenge and the other team either accepts or denies the challenge, ofc u should aim for a IL balance in your team(Ex. all ~2.4k or how the pvp playerbase sees the balance of char vs IL) to get fights easier but hey, prolly would work better than pure pugging and premade que. Or am i totally wrong here? just throwing it out here.
Comments
It's a simple algorithm based on Item Level... where the total item level from any team is added together to produce a team level. These teams are then only matched with teams that have the same total (with a plus/minus allowance). This would allow a single queue to work for all players. If a premade maxed out team joined as a group, their total would be high enough that ONLY another premade team of maxed out players could be matched with them.
If a single maxed out player queued, they would be matched against a team with a similar total item level team, which in all likelihood, would need to contain a similar geared player on the opposing team.
I don't believe a players item level is part of whatever algorithm is used now. I make this statement after recording the total item level from teams I've been on, VS teams I've been 'matched' against... I did this over the course of 15 matches, and in almost every case, the totals had differences of 5K or more (some were much much more, in one case the difference was over 11K). Meaning one team was so obviously better geared than the other, as to guarantee a one sided match.
There would need to be some sort of 'safe guard', to prevent players from taking gear off while being matched to lower their iL, only to put the gear on again once the match had started. But I'm sure something along the lines of preventing gear from being equipped/unequipped during the match, should solve this problem.
Maybe... using the idea I posted above this, players could be slotted into groups... maybe something along the lines of...
0-500 iL : Group A
501-1000 iL : Group B
1001-1500 iL : Group C
etc etc...., these 'groups' could then be used in an algorithm to form the teams for a match.
If Cryptic is going to sort this mess out it's going to mean longer queues to start with in order to make people (other than the top geared pvp guilds) start playing again. Then queues will shorten.
http://forum.arcgames.com/neverwinter/discussion/1207904/what-kind-of-community-event-would-you-like-to-see
Voting for the PvP event might help the situation...
And I wouldn't really call 2.5k "well geared" in the context of pvp. You're not worthlessly pathetic, unless your ilvl doesn't include pvp gear at all, but you will still routinely find yourself utterly ineffectual against one or more of your opponents.
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
Best in slot pvp gear (without SH stuff), purple artifact weapons, a full set of purple artifacts, and all r7/r8 enchantments, and you'll just about reach 2.5k. That's well geared by any normal standard, unless you're basing it on people who've bought loads of r12s.
(Also, when I look at people's gear, very few have the illusionist mask).
I almost never play standard PVP... but GG looks better
Tonight for example... I joined 23 matches. And 23 times I was 'matched' with players I have no chance of competing with. In 23 matches, I was unable to get ONE win to get my daily seal.
That isn't just 'broken'... it's useless. Shame on Cryptic for letting something so obviously not functioning go on and on, while they spam us with new content to add yet MORE bugs to their already broken platform.
This is what passes for pvp in this game. It's not occasionally, it's not sometimes, it's in 95% or more of EVERY pvp match that happens EVERY day.
So where are the forum mods to tell me 'the situation is being looked into', or something that let's the player base know that the game devs are at least aware of how badly broken it is. Instead of wasting time with adding content to simply add more bugs (that then won't get fixed either).
a 3k GWF without Feytouched+negation+lolset is an easy target
a 3k GWF with all that will stomp a hole team f.e.
you can have a 2,3k char slotting some T negation+T Feytouched+ lolset on him and you beat any 3k char
so balanceproblems will allways stay
during ncl lots of ppl take part and you have a system that works much better
but having near no benefit beside some poor AD its allways facing 4k chars vs 2k, or meeting "semipremades" like 2-3 premade buddies who stomp for a few matches because noone wants to take part in a completely disbalanced PVP system just "for fun" knowing he gets stomped in a row
PVP at this state will stay a place for the "virtual rich ones" who earned, cheated or bought their stuff in former times
So, I am going to do what so many others have done, and just give up. No more pvp for me. Another player chased away from the already dwindling pvp player base because there's absolutely NO way to catch up to players who have played for years.
Congratulations Cryptic on your epic failure to revamp what is clearly a very broken aspect of the game and denying players access to the full gaming experience.
The simple fact is Cryptic does not want new players to go to pvp. So they've made it impossible to farm the items needed to acquire end game pvp gear.
BTW, matchmaking is a joke, as it is, we can agree on that.
If instead they forced all players to queue solo or as 5 man premade, without mixing the two for matching, then you'd get a random scattering of high and low geared players in the pug queues. The PVP guilds that specialise in pug stomping by queuing in 3s and quitting any matches against other pvp guilds would not be able to do this any more. Lower geared players would actually win some matches. I think it would result, with time, in far shorter queues because at the moment only the highest geared players are taking part, and many of them are sick of PVP in this broken state.
Even more so if you are one of the poor sods who wants to make it work with free to play. I was already talking about how utterly screwed new players were in that area, two mods ago. Nobody cares over there, because nothing's been done about it.
In fact, I'd argue that they've made the situation decidedly worse in many ways.
So do yourself a favour: save your money and move on, if you like PvP in a MMO.