Im very curious about all the actual testing that went into this, since changes like this are somewhat complicated to actually test...
However I think we are at a breaking point I my biggest suggestions are to:
1) Remove Tenacity as a stat on gear. PERIOD. However give ALL players a BASE equal to the MAX Tenacity players had. (40%). This allows for ANY gear to be used in PVP which I think is NEEDED because it creates a larger audience for PVE dungeons and gear. I dont think "tenacity" was a bad Idea, I think putting it on GEAR was though... Because it made a MAJOR divide between PVE and PVP.
2) Crit Resistance needs to be "reduces your crit severity by 40%. Meaning that 75% crit severity becomes 45% Severity and adding a P VORPAL would be (125*.6) = 75% Severity. Thus P vorpal counters the act of "crit resist" making for REGULAR crits.
3) Once that is done, negation needs to have both an "uptime" and "downtime" on the enchant. Multiple suggestions have been made about this. There are many options. All other enchants have a CD for a "downtime" aside from a few that are not THAT great anyways.
4) ARP Resistance needs to NOT be "additive" but rather multiplicative. What this means is:
PVP RI = Total RI (1-80%). Meaning that ARP in pvp is 500:1 however we all know 1% RI > 1% damage.
5) Wheel of Elements, Shadowy Opportunity, Shocking Execution NEED TO NOT BE PIERCING DAMAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!
love the first suggestion. Would give people more possibilities on pvp. Tenacity should be an innate state not gear based. love to see these trs encounters not to be piercing damage. this is totally bs. I came back to play on mod5 on xbox one, and the trs there are just stupidly strong. I made a gwf almost 50k hp, high dr, deflection, they still melt me because they can bypass even unstoppable with that bs skills
last matches indicates that warlock is not the loser from changes I was wrong, fights lasts longer and dots can tick for long time so the damagelack compared to classes that have great burstdamage gets smaller and the dots begin heavy ticking in the long run
only problem seems to be heavy piercing encounter like SE what just onehits you
last matches indicates that warlock is not the loser from changes I was wrong
At this point any class that could not rely on tenancy before now has advantage in 80% Arp Pen resistance against others. On other hand btw for Warlock I think you can stack Arm Pen pretty high now due to feet, class features, stats bonuses.
But you are right biggest advantage are for SE users since first it is 'before' mitigation calcs and is piercing. Or wheel.
Even HRs piercing blades are not so effective due to 'after' mitigation calcs.
Edit: another side of the coin - as predicted unkillable OP. well at least he had fun )
Warlock can get up to almost -150% resistance ignored (16,900 ArP and 30 INT extra 30%RI).
But there is no use in going that high if Negation 30%DR adds to base 40%PvPDR and cannot be mitigated.
The max RI% you'd want to be at is about 110% or 120% RI tops to cancel like a GF 30%defensive DR.
But there is no use in going that high if Negation 30%DR adds to base 40%PvPDR and cannot be mitigated.
The max RI% you'd want to be at is about 110% or 120% RI tops to cancel like a GF 30%defensive DR.
HM OP first post
Negation is now additive to your DR whereas it was multiplicative before....
Tenacity Damage Reduction is now additive...
both though still not mitigatible.
Warlock can get up to almost -150% resistance ignored (16,900 ArP and 30 INT extra 30%RI).
But there is no use in going that high if Negation 30%DR adds to base 40%PvPDR and cannot be mitigated.
The max RI% you'd want to be at is about 110% or 120% RI tops to cancel like a GF 30%defensive DR.
You only get 1% RI for every point above 10 INT. So that's 20% RI at 30 INT, not 30%.
Negation is now additive to your DR whereas it was multiplicative before. This puts it on the same level as DR (though still not mitigatible), and puts people way past the damage reduction cap.
Tenacity Damage Reduction is now additive to your DR whereas it was multiplicative before. This puts it on the same level as DR (though still not mitigatible), and puts people way past the damage reduction cap.
Despite player feedback of changing Armor Penetration Resistance to not be at the ridiculous value of an additive 80%, the change still went ahead and now players are forced to stack more than 80% Resistance Ignored in order to notice a damage increase from RI.
Critical Damage Resistance is now an additive damage reduction (I'm guessing it's an additive 40% DR like Tenacity DR), which means all critical damage is now reduced by a total of 80%, non-mitigatible. The effectiveness of all crit damage is now 20%, and 10% on a deflect (5% on a TR just because).
GG, Cryptic.
You know... This could actually work IF!!!!!
1) They removed Tenacity from gear. Leave the BASE "tenacity" as is - which is what? 20%? or heck maybe bump it TO 20% if its at 10% (I forget). This would put ARP Res at 40% which is pretty fair IMO as well. Make Crits deal greater than non crits because its only @ 20% now rather than 40%..... CC resist would be less which may be somewhat of an issue so you could bump that up to the 30% range.
So it would be:
Tenacity: 20%
Crit Resist: 20%
Arp Resist: 40%
CC Resist: 30%
With NO tenacity however. This would be FINAL stats. Not able to be boosted.
Also allows for more open gear choice. This gets PVP players running PVE dungeons for gear because while PVP gear isnt bad, certain builds may work better with PVE gear. (remember back in CN days EVERYONE ran it? Because it was BIS... Even PVP players too)
2) Put a MAX cap on DR. So what the code would be is DR = MIN(DR + Negation +Tenacity,100) - MAX(RI-Arp REs, 0).
meaning that the MOST DR you can get with everything added would be 100%. It would "hard cap" itself at 100% and only 80% is the IN GAME "cap". Meaning there is ZERO benefit to stack DR above 100%. So if you are already a tanky class it would not help at all. (FYI - SHIELD on CWs should be in the SAME layer as negation... Meaning it would count towards that 100% Cap.
What this REALLY means is that in combo with #1 a 40% additive ARP Res, plus an extra "20% buffer from 100% DR" you could get over 60% RI total and it is GUARANTEED to increase damage. Having 80% RI for instance is guaranteed to drop their DR from 80% (100% really) -> 60% because you had 80% RI - 40% Arp Res = 40% left "arp" against 100% DR = 60% DR final.
This makes ARP a very useful stat. Still makes tenacity and DR bonuses useful. Allows players to swap different gear around. Fixes the crit issue. Fixes classes (like DC) that can get 140% + DR which would be capped at 100% and moot out their use of negation - allowing for more interesting build choices etc.
Now THIS would be a PVP I would LOVE to play.
The only concern I may have is ARP @ 40% may not be good enough and it MAY make sense to either bump it to 50% or make it multiplicative @50%. Which means you would need 100% RI for a "pvp 50% ARP" which would then put a tanky target down to 50% DR. So that seems pretty fair IMO.... If you stack 100% RI thats ALOT of stats....
Apologies, I re-read my post this morning (I made that post fairly late at night when I was tired) and just realised I said Negation was not mitigatible.
Negation IS mitigatible.
You have a flat 40% DR from tenacity which is not mitigatible, then another flat 30% DR from Negation which is mitigatible. My apologies for this mistake.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Tenacity is now fully and utterly broken with this patch. It has upset the balance of PvP even more whereas before it was fragile enough. Class balance is out the window yet again, with TRs right up the top because of piercing damage, followed by GFs and GWFs, and then CWs and HRs and then SWs. OPs and DCs will be nigh unkillable again, now taking 40% less damage than before. Good job completely breaking the tanky classes and making them OP.
To sum it up:
Negation is now additive to your DR whereas it was multiplicative before. This puts it on the same level as DR (mitigatible), and puts people way past the damage reduction cap.
Tenacity Damage Reduction is now additive to your DR whereas it was multiplicative before. This puts it on the same level as DR (though still not mitigatible), and puts people way past the damage reduction cap.
Despite player feedback of changing Armor Penetration Resistance to not be at the ridiculous value of an additive 80%, the change still went ahead and now players are forced to stack more than 80% Resistance Ignored in order to notice a damage increase from RI.
Critical Damage Resistance is now an additive damage reduction (I'm guessing it's an additive 40% DR like Tenacity DR), which means all critical damage is now reduced by a total of 80%, non-mitigatible. The effectiveness of all crit damage is now 20%, and 10% on a deflect (5% on a TR just because).
With the combination of the first three points above, everyone with BiS gear (negation + 40.2% tenacity) now has 70% base DR. GFs have base 35-40% DR, which means they will now have 105-110% DR, meaning you need more than 30% RI after Armor Penetration Resistance in order to actually notice a damage increase from RI. 31% = 1% damage increase on a GF with 110% DR.
Now, on squishy classes (70% DR from negation + tenacity, then an additional 12% as class DR, so around 80-85% DR), you can only mitigate 30%, so you need 110% RI to bring them down to 0% DR.
Guess what? You need exactly 12375 Armor Penetration stat in order to get 110% RI (112.5 ARP = 1% RI). Good luck if you don't have arp on your armor.
Critical damage. On classes where you can mitigate DR to 0, or at least mitigate a decent chunk of DR, critical strikes will do less damage than normal non-critical attacks. Let's say on a target with 40% Tenacity, 10 stacks of negation (30% DR) and 10% DR. You have 100% RI. Base damage is 10,000.
10000 * (1 + 0.75) * (1 - 0.4 - 0.4 - 0.1 + (1 - 0.8)) = 17500 * 0.1 = 17500 * 0.2 = 3500 damage (note you cannot mitigate damage with DR by more than 80% (0.2))
Now, is this WAI or was this screwed up with the last patch, by making everything additive instead of just Armor Penetration Resistance? If this is WAI, please change it back to how it was, this is completely breaking some classes, especially ones that relied on crit, and making tanky classes like GF extremely overpowered and broken.
GG, Cryptic.
so when this will go away so i can pvp again with fun?
Right - my quick mistake on that INT can add up tp aboutt 20% not 30% RI for warlock, the total of warlock coming close to 150%RI max is correct though.
Apologies, I re-read my post this morning (I made that post fairly late at night when I was tired) and just realised I said Negation was not mitigatible.
Negation IS mitigatible.
You have a flat 40% DR from tenacity which is [/b]not[/]b mitigatible, then another flat 30% DR from Negation which is mitigatible. My apologies for this mistake.
So this hasnt changed then and was always this way.
Thats good to know. I wonder why all the sudden they changed the formula for ARP and DR... It makes no sense....
So this hasnt changed then and was always this way.
Thats good to know. I wonder why all the sudden they changed the formula for ARP and DR... It makes no sense....
No, Negation was not mitigatible and was multiplicative before this patch.
I think they may have made a mistake with the formulas - hopefully, at least. When they changed Arp Res to be additive they might have accidentally changed a flag or formula variant with tenacity in general.
1) They removed Tenacity from gear. Leave the BASE "tenacity" as is - which is what? 20%? or heck maybe bump it TO 20% if its at 10% (I forget). This would put ARP Res at 40% which is pretty fair IMO as well. Make Crits deal greater than non crits because its only @ 20% now rather than 40%..... CC resist would be less which may be somewhat of an issue so you could bump that up to the 30% range.
So it would be:
Tenacity: 20%
Crit Resist: 20%
Arp Resist: 40%
CC Resist: 30%
With NO tenacity however. This would be FINAL stats. Not able to be boosted.
Also allows for more open gear choice. This gets PVP players running PVE dungeons for gear because while PVP gear isnt bad, certain builds may work better with PVE gear. (remember back in CN days EVERYONE ran it? Because it was BIS... Even PVP players too)
2) Put a MAX cap on DR. So what the code would be is DR = MIN(DR + Negation +Tenacity,100) - MAX(RI-Arp REs, 0).
meaning that the MOST DR you can get with everything added would be 100%. It would "hard cap" itself at 100% and only 80% is the IN GAME "cap". Meaning there is ZERO benefit to stack DR above 100%. So if you are already a tanky class it would not help at all. (FYI - SHIELD on CWs should be in the SAME layer as negation... Meaning it would count towards that 100% Cap.
What this REALLY means is that in combo with #1 a 40% additive ARP Res, plus an extra "20% buffer from 100% DR" you could get over 60% RI total and it is GUARANTEED to increase damage. Having 80% RI for instance is guaranteed to drop their DR from 80% (100% really) -> 60% because you had 80% RI - 40% Arp Res = 40% left "arp" against 100% DR = 60% DR final.
This makes ARP a very useful stat. Still makes tenacity and DR bonuses useful. Allows players to swap different gear around. Fixes the crit issue. Fixes classes (like DC) that can get 140% + DR which would be capped at 100% and moot out their use of negation - allowing for more interesting build choices etc.
Now THIS would be a PVP I would LOVE to play.
The only concern I may have is ARP @ 40% may not be good enough and it MAY make sense to either bump it to 50% or make it multiplicative @50%. Which means you would need 100% RI for a "pvp 50% ARP" which would then put a tanky target down to 50% DR. So that seems pretty fair IMO.... If you stack 100% RI thats ALOT of stats....
+1 to this. this would atleast lessen the wide gap between a BiS player and the lowerclasses..
With the combination of the first three points above, everyone with BiS gear (negation + 40.2% tenacity) now has 70% base DR. GFs have base 35-40% DR, which means they will now have 105-110% DR, meaning you need more than 30% RI after Armor Penetration Resistance in order to actually notice a damage increase from RI. 31% = 1% damage increase on a GF with 110% DR. So you need at least 111% RI to do 1% more damage.
Guess what? You need exactly 12375 Armor Penetration stat in order to get 110% RI (112.5 ARP = 1% RI). Then 112.5 points more for each 1% damage on only a few classes. Good luck if you don't have arp on your armor.
Now, on squishy classes (70% DR from negation + tenacity, then an additional 12% as class DR, so around 80-85% DR), you can only mitigate 12%, so you need 92% RSI to bring them down to 0% DR - even then, it's only a maximum of 10% damage increase.
For 92% RSI, you need 10350 Armor Penetration stat, for a 10% damage increase. This is a 1% damage increase per 1035 stat points. So good.
Apologies, I re-read my post this morning (I made that post fairly late at night when I was tired) and just realised I said Negation was not mitigatible.
Negation IS mitigatible.
I tested and clearly seems you were initially correct - Negation is NOT mitigatible, no matter how much Armor penetration.
Here are the details>
ATTACKER:
14,000+ Armor Penetration stat
INT (26% RI) >>> 129.8% Resist Ignore
TARGET (CW):
No shield
80% ArP Resist
10% defensive DR
30%DR from 10x stacks of TNegation
>>> Need 90% Resist ignore to overcome defensive DR
>>> Need 120% Resist ignore to overcome defensive DR and 30%DR from Negation
I had 130% Resist ignore... should mitigate all but the 40% tenacity.
Using at-wills with 130% resist ignore on CW no shield, no TNegation:
Noncrit Efficacy = 58.2% (100%-40%PvPDR=60%, the 10% defensive DR fully mitigated)
Crit Efficacy = 20%
Using at-wills with 130% resist ignore with CW no shield, with TNegation:
Noncrit Efficacy = 28.2% (100%-40%PvPDR-30%DRNegation=30%, the 10% defensive DR fully mitigated)
Crit Efficacy = 20%
The 30%DR from Negation CANNOT be mitigated with ArP.
I tested and clearly seems you were initially correct - Negation is NOT mitigatible, no matter how much Armor penetration.
Here are the details>
ATTACKER:
14,000+ Armor Penetration stat
INT (26% RI) >>> 129.8% Resist Ignore
TARGET (CW):
No shield
80% ArP Resist
10% defensive DR
30%DR from 10x stacks of TNegation
>>> Need 90% Resist ignore to overcome defensive DR
>>> Need 120% Resist ignore to overcome defensive DR and 30%DR from Negation
I had 130% Resist ignore... should mitigate all but the 40% tenacity.
Using at-wills with 130% resist ignore on CW no shield, no TNegation:
Noncrit Efficacy = 58.2% (100%-40%PvPDR=60%, the 10% defensive DR fully mitigated)
Crit Efficacy = 20%
Using at-wills with 130% resist ignore with CW no shield, with TNegation:
Noncrit Efficacy = 28.2% (100%-40%PvPDR-30%DRNegation=30%, the 10% defensive DR fully mitigated)
Crit Efficacy = 20%
The 30%DR from Negation CANNOT be mitigated with ArP.
Yes, I've updated it already after testing it again myself. Thanks for the info.
CW's with Feytouch + Negation + Shield = tankier than a GF, GWF, DC.... 100% tankier. My 50-80k hits are 3-4k's regularly... 200k anvils hitting for 11k... This new patch royally screwed damage.
I got about 0% more tanky... maybe a littttttle more. and GF's have like 20-25% dr now, not the 35-45% of old. CW's got a MASSIVE increase in tankiness... Just silly.
You do realize that tenacity actually helps non heavy DR classes about 2-3x as much as it affects heavy DR classes....
I think you may be mistaking healing and or DR buffs in general on some classes (like DC). That's not tenacitys doing.
You do realise how stupidly powerful this change has made GFs? Mark gives a flat 20% damage bonus of base damage (not a relative damage boost), which makes them stupidly powerful, and with this change they still do similar damage to pre-patch, while you do approximately 40% less damage to them. They don't even need to use Negation - they can choose other enchants like Soulforged and Elven Battle, and still maintain DR cap. This is also while procing Fey Thistle and Avalanche a million times on you because fights are now longer.
Hopefully they will come with some solution quickly, because greater+ negation causes way too many stalemates. Maybe instead of DR it should only give crit dmg reduction.
1) Remove Tenacity as a stat on gear. PERIOD. However give ALL players a BASE equal to the MAX Tenacity players had. (40%). This allows for ANY gear to be used in PVP which I think is NEEDED because it creates a larger audience for PVE dungeons and gear. I dont think "tenacity" was a bad Idea, I think putting it on GEAR was though... Because it made a MAJOR divide between PVE and PVP.
Actually i think that forcing two completely different gear and enchant setups for PVP and PVE is what influenced this tenacity change in the first place. I see no other logical explanation for this decision.
As a relatively squishy HR, I'm not complaining too much. I die so much less often
Trying to kill OPs though... However in pug, with the old mod3 tactics - TW, CA, fox and boarscharge, been knocking them dead like no-ones business, 30/0 kill death in a game yesterday, new record. Trolled 3 for the whole match alone. Can I be made an honorary TR please..?
Comments
love the first suggestion. Would give people more possibilities on pvp. Tenacity should be an innate state not gear based. love to see these trs encounters not to be piercing damage. this is totally bs. I came back to play on mod5 on xbox one, and the trs there are just stupidly strong. I made a gwf almost 50k hp, high dr, deflection, they still melt me because they can bypass even unstoppable with that bs skills
DENIAL
only problem seems to be heavy piercing encounter like SE what just onehits you
But you are right biggest advantage are for SE users since first it is 'before' mitigation calcs and is piercing. Or wheel.
Even HRs piercing blades are not so effective due to 'after' mitigation calcs.
Edit: another side of the coin - as predicted unkillable OP. well at least he had fun )
But there is no use in going that high if Negation 30%DR adds to base 40%PvPDR and cannot be mitigated.
The max RI% you'd want to be at is about 110% or 120% RI tops to cancel like a GF 30%defensive DR.
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
HM OP first post so yeah you are right. got confused a bit.
You only get 1% RI for every point above 10 INT. So that's 20% RI at 30 INT, not 30%.
You know... This could actually work IF!!!!!
1) They removed Tenacity from gear. Leave the BASE "tenacity" as is - which is what? 20%? or heck maybe bump it TO 20% if its at 10% (I forget). This would put ARP Res at 40% which is pretty fair IMO as well. Make Crits deal greater than non crits because its only @ 20% now rather than 40%..... CC resist would be less which may be somewhat of an issue so you could bump that up to the 30% range.
So it would be:
Tenacity: 20%
Crit Resist: 20%
Arp Resist: 40%
CC Resist: 30%
With NO tenacity however. This would be FINAL stats. Not able to be boosted.
Also allows for more open gear choice. This gets PVP players running PVE dungeons for gear because while PVP gear isnt bad, certain builds may work better with PVE gear. (remember back in CN days EVERYONE ran it? Because it was BIS... Even PVP players too)
2) Put a MAX cap on DR. So what the code would be is DR = MIN(DR + Negation +Tenacity,100) - MAX(RI-Arp REs, 0).
meaning that the MOST DR you can get with everything added would be 100%. It would "hard cap" itself at 100% and only 80% is the IN GAME "cap". Meaning there is ZERO benefit to stack DR above 100%. So if you are already a tanky class it would not help at all. (FYI - SHIELD on CWs should be in the SAME layer as negation... Meaning it would count towards that 100% Cap.
What this REALLY means is that in combo with #1 a 40% additive ARP Res, plus an extra "20% buffer from 100% DR" you could get over 60% RI total and it is GUARANTEED to increase damage. Having 80% RI for instance is guaranteed to drop their DR from 80% (100% really) -> 60% because you had 80% RI - 40% Arp Res = 40% left "arp" against 100% DR = 60% DR final.
This makes ARP a very useful stat. Still makes tenacity and DR bonuses useful. Allows players to swap different gear around. Fixes the crit issue. Fixes classes (like DC) that can get 140% + DR which would be capped at 100% and moot out their use of negation - allowing for more interesting build choices etc.
Now THIS would be a PVP I would LOVE to play.
The only concern I may have is ARP @ 40% may not be good enough and it MAY make sense to either bump it to 50% or make it multiplicative @50%. Which means you would need 100% RI for a "pvp 50% ARP" which would then put a tanky target down to 50% DR. So that seems pretty fair IMO.... If you stack 100% RI thats ALOT of stats....
Negation IS mitigatible.
You have a flat 40% DR from tenacity which is not mitigatible, then another flat 30% DR from Negation which is mitigatible. My apologies for this mistake.
so when this will go away so i can pvp again with fun?
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
So this hasnt changed then and was always this way.
Thats good to know. I wonder why all the sudden they changed the formula for ARP and DR... It makes no sense....
No, Negation was not mitigatible and was multiplicative before this patch.
I think they may have made a mistake with the formulas - hopefully, at least. When they changed Arp Res to be additive they might have accidentally changed a flag or formula variant with tenacity in general.
Apparently I was right last night, Negation is NOT mitigatible. So everyone has base 70% DR that is NOT MITIGATIBLE. Wonderful.
Kudos to zeusom/Sophi for pointing it out.
+1 to this. this would atleast lessen the wide gap between a BiS player and the lowerclasses..
I tested and clearly seems you were initially correct - Negation is NOT mitigatible, no matter how much Armor penetration.
Here are the details>
ATTACKER:
14,000+ Armor Penetration stat
INT (26% RI) >>>
129.8% Resist Ignore
TARGET (CW):
No shield
80% ArP Resist
10% defensive DR
30%DR from 10x stacks of TNegation
>>> Need 90% Resist ignore to overcome defensive DR
>>> Need 120% Resist ignore to overcome defensive DR and 30%DR from Negation
I had 130% Resist ignore... should mitigate all but the 40% tenacity.
Using at-wills with 130% resist ignore on CW no shield, no TNegation:
Noncrit Efficacy = 58.2% (100%-40%PvPDR=60%, the 10% defensive DR fully mitigated)
Crit Efficacy = 20%
Using at-wills with 130% resist ignore with CW no shield, with TNegation:
Noncrit Efficacy = 28.2% (100%-40%PvPDR-30%DRNegation=30%, the 10% defensive DR fully mitigated)
Crit Efficacy = 20%
The 30%DR from Negation CANNOT be mitigated with ArP.
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
Yes, I've updated it already after testing it again myself. Thanks for the info.
You do realize that tenacity actually helps non heavy DR classes about 2-3x as much as it affects heavy DR classes....
I think you may be mistaking healing and or DR buffs in general on some classes (like DC). That's not tenacitys doing.
I got about 0% more tanky... maybe a littttttle more. and GF's have like 20-25% dr now, not the 35-45% of old. CW's got a MASSIVE increase in tankiness... Just silly.
You do realise how stupidly powerful this change has made GFs? Mark gives a flat 20% damage bonus of base damage (not a relative damage boost), which makes them stupidly powerful, and with this change they still do similar damage to pre-patch, while you do approximately 40% less damage to them. They don't even need to use Negation - they can choose other enchants like Soulforged and Elven Battle, and still maintain DR cap. This is also while procing Fey Thistle and Avalanche a million times on you because fights are now longer.
see you again when this disaster thing being fixed
Actually i think that forcing two completely different gear and enchant setups for PVP and PVE is what influenced this tenacity change in the first place. I see no other logical explanation for this decision.
Trying to kill OPs though... However in pug, with the old mod3 tactics - TW, CA, fox and boarscharge, been knocking them dead like no-ones business, 30/0 kill death in a game yesterday, new record. Trolled 3 for the whole match alone. Can I be made an honorary TR please..?