clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
edited February 2015
Going off topic (but not too much), what will happen to Tiamat over time ? Some people here believe its supposed to be end game content, but I disagree, surely most people do Tiamat to complete their boons. This is only my anecdotal observation, but doing Tiamat with my alts I am getting a lower and lower success rate, either I am unlucky or the super high gs are done with their boons. If Tiamat is going to become increasingly impossible to complete, this will mean future players or players that want to get boons for new classes can never do so. They can obviously get all their boons with dragon coffers or dragon coins, but that will require either 120 000 coins or 8000 coffers (and any combination of those two), I cannot see too many grinding that insane amount.
This could mean that Tiamat is essentially going to become a reward for having played before module 6. I don't think that is a good thing, they need really make Tiamat easier, perhaps create a hard and easy mode, with easy giving one linu and hard something like 3 linus.
Speaking of boons, how do we get the books needed for the campaign of ToD and RoT? I've never seen them drop anywhere. :S
I stopped tryng to get them when I saw I needed too much time per day to get them.
Going off topic (but not too much), what will happen to Tiamat over time ? Some people here believe its supposed to be end game content, but I disagree, surely most people do Tiamat to complete their boons. This is only my anecdotal observation, but doing Tiamat with my alts I am getting a lower and lower success rate, either I am unlucky or the super high gs are done with their boons. If Tiamat is going to become increasingly impossible to complete, this will mean future players or players that want to get boons for new classes can never do so. They can obviously get all their boons with dragon coffers or dragon coins, but that will require either 120 000 coins or 8000 coffers (and any combination of those two), I cannot see too many grinding that insane amount.
This could mean that Tiamat is essentially going to become a reward for having played before module 6. I don't think that is a good thing, they need really make Tiamat easier, perhaps create a hard and easy mode, with easy giving one linu and hard something like 3 linus.
The problem with it is the lack of being able to make premades for it. If you could organise guild groups for the raid, there would be many more still running.
Speaking of boons, how do we get the books needed for the campaign of ToD and RoT? I've never seen them drop anywhere. :S
I stopped tryng to get them when I saw I needed too much time per day to get them.
SoT, LoL, and Tiamat respectively. The drop rate is crazy low though. I've seen one drop ever in LoL. You're better off just buying them on the ah when you need them rather than running them like crazy trying to win the lotto.
Speaking of boons, how do we get the books needed for the campaign of ToD and RoT? I've never seen them drop anywhere. :S
I stopped tryng to get them when I saw I needed too much time per day to get them.
Haarls and Breyer from sot/esot/lol/elol. Can be pricey on AH depdends.
Dragon queen can be bought with linus from the vendor in WoD. I think its 15 linus, but also they are cheap on the AH or so I heard.
editL: you are too fast charon
On topic. AFKers/leavers can be an issue. To some point I agree with some type of autoremoval or removal of failing awards, but again to a certain point. I do understand if you can not get the first head down after phase 1, you are probably sol. But if you can get to the 2nd head and get it low enough, the instance is still possible. You have to take notice how fast the groups rotate to the first head. If the dreamer/linu groups rotate (movement to the dragon) slow, you may very well have the DPS, but the rotation was just too slow on the first phase. It can be made up on the 2nd phase if the rotations are better. Situational awareness is key. (opposite of good situational awareness, CW/DC who have no situational awareness and fling mobs all over when players already have them nicely compacted off the clerics and are burning them down)
Also on topic. I feel for those in bad instances, idk maybe Im just lucky. But I just started tia early this year and have like 85-95% success rate outta nearly 70+ runs now and I run them at all times of the day, so the crowd does vary a bit.
Speaking of boons, how do we get the books needed for the campaign of ToD and RoT? I've never seen them drop anywhere. :S
I stopped tryng to get them when I saw I needed too much time per day to get them.
With only doing the dailies along with the weeklies once per week with occasional extra dailies if I have time, I've very recently been able to buy 2 books from the TOD vendor and clear the 4th and 5th boon. It's a casual pace and slow process, but then I don't have to devote much time to grinding other than getting my NW play time fix each week.
There was an instance when I was fighting the entire time, dished out over 24m damage, lagged at the very end and died. Respawned to the room and used my injury kit then the cutscene appeared saying we defeated Tiamat and everyone (most) were saying their rewards in /say while I received absolutely nothing for it.
As for as the people complaining about how the fight is setup... Right now the basic way to do it we all know - black -> white. With a really good alliance and/or tier 4, this can be done within 2 rounds. Now, I'm not a fan of playing by people saying "this is how it's done - do it this way" especially when they haven't even bothered to attempt (which, admittedly, is hard given random instances) various methods and strategies.
Tiamat CAN BE DEFEATED within the first round (regardless of which tier it's on). How do I know this? Because a guild member and myself took out two dragon heads (White -> Blue) within the 2 minute first round. If TWO people can work together to take out TWO dragon heads, 25 people can do it to take out 5. And while my friend is extremely well geared with legendary artifact equipment and artifacts, I, myself, only have 1 single legendary artifact piece which is the Sigil of Devoted. I know how to play my class, work with my friend, and we can work together (rather than `against each other` as a lot of people seem to be doing) to get it done.
As for people with low GS, I decided to go on with one of my ALTs who happens to have 12k GS. Nothing special, not even an epic artifact or any artifact equipment/weapons. I dealt over 10m damage (which usually falls under "top 5 damage dealers"), no deaths, and came in 1st on the Rank. Just because my GS is 12k doesn't mean I can't play that class - another reason I'm glad their getting rid of Gear Score. It's total BS.
[side note: I know some people are going to call me out on this and frankly I could careless. But there are those people who will read this and know exactly what I'm talking about - those are the skilled players, who not only know their class - BUT KNOW HOW TO WORK AS A GROUP even if it is a duo or trio or an alliance of 25]
TL;DR
You want to get the job done - do it. Two people to a dragon, both people who can work with each other, play off each other, and not necessarily do what will give "them the most damage" but instead cumulatively deal the most damage can get the job done in a single round - REGARDLESS OF TIER 1 - 4.
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I don't know about 2 people killing 2 heads (I don't have buddies and play alone), I reckon there's considerable buffs/debuffs involved, (or the camera view is too obscure to see a few range players who hit and move on). I've never bothered to note how much health a head has, but if it's much lesser than a standard dragon (which should be the case), I suppose it's possible since anywhere under 10 mins to solo a dragon meant for zone of players is possible.
The way tiamat is setup, it's nearly impossible to coordinate 5 separate groups of characters (that complements or coordinate well).
I have however been in instances where Tiamat is defeated in the first phase, so I know for a fact that THAT is completely possible, but that consists of very high GS zerg runs.
I don't know about 2 people killing 2 heads (I don't have buddies and play alone), I reckon there's considerable buffs/debuffs involved, (or the camera view is too obscure to see a few range players who hit and move on). I've never bothered to note how much health a head has, but if it's much lesser than a standard dragon (which should be the case), I suppose it's possible since anywhere under 10 mins to solo a dragon meant for zone of players is possible.
The way tiamat is setup, it's nearly impossible to coordinate 5 separate groups of characters (that complements or coordinate well).
I have however been in instances where Tiamat is defeated in the first phase, so I know for a fact that THAT is completely possible, but that consists of very high GS zerg runs.
Each Head has 20M health.
Just for comparison Epic T2 dungeons (all mobs+bosses) have around 10M Health totoal
Castle Never has around 25M
VT has around 15M
ELOL has ~ 10M
If 2 people have to kill a head for 1 min (2 heads for 2 min) that would mean 10 000 000/60 = 166.6K DPS (damage per second) each, not counting time for moving from one head to another and time you spend being stunned, frozen, pushed etc.
If 2 people have to kill a head for 1 min (2 heads for 2 min) that would mean 10 000 000/60 = 166.6K DPS (damage per second) each, not counting time for moving from one head to another and time you spend being stunned, frozen, pushed etc.
I don't know about better players such as the previous poster, but that number is by far out of my league. Even with everything buffs/debuffs stacked on the heads in zerg runs, my TR can perhaps come 3/4 of 166k damage with Lashing Blade or stacked Duelist Flurry, but none of them can activate or accumulate under 1s nor consistent enough.
Each Head has 20M health.
Just for comparison Epic T2 dungeons (all mobs+bosses) have around 10M Health totoal
Castle Never has around 25M
VT has around 15M
ELOL has ~ 10M
T2 Bosses have 5m HP each with the exception of SP which has 5m PER phase so a total of 25m.
The 5 Dragon's in the Well of Dragons have 13.5m HP Each.
Each of Tiamat's Heads have 15.5m Max HP. I say "Max HP" because as we all (should) know, if it reaches stage 2 and/or 3 they regenerate some of their health.
One reason I know this is due to a simple test. Running up one of the heads no one is fighting, and using an encounter at full health while wearing the Fabled set. The set bonus - Corrupted Fire - deals 3% of the targets current HP in damage. I dealt 463,104 dmg with Corrupted Fire. 15,500,000*0.03 = 465,000. Given initial damage to trigger the effect as well as various other factors, I think it's fair to say the initial HP of each head is 15.5m.
Another reason I know is I parse data and combat logs and it's not terribly hard to figure it out.
If 2 people have to kill a head for 1 min (2 heads for 2 min) that would mean 10 000 000/60 = 166.6K DPS (damage per second) each, not counting time for moving from one head to another and time you spend being stunned, frozen, pushed etc.
Why would we count time for being stunned, frozen, or pushed? During that time neither of us were stunned, frozen, pushed, or held any control effects on us. We know how to play our classes, maneuver properly, and the best thing, we know how to use gems - yes, they are usable and they do help.
Anyways, my whole point of my original post wasn't to emphasize that feat. It was to emphasize it is VERY MUCH possible to defeat Tiamat during the first stage, not only that, but also to do it with people AFK. Not that I support or condone people being afk, far from it, quite the opposite actually, but it is possible if you WORK TOGETHER and not AGAINST EACH OTHER and TRY OTHER STRATEGIES.
But hey, no one wants to do that right? No one wants to go up against each head as a party, no one wants to work with a small group, everyone wants to attempt to fight together and hope for the best.
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T2 Bosses have 5m HP each with the exception of SP which has 5m PER phase so a total of 25m.
The 5 Dragon's in the Well of Dragons have 13.5m HP Each.
Each of Tiamat's Heads have 15.5m Max HP. I say "Max HP" because as we all (should) know, if it reaches stage 2 and/or 3 they regenerate some of their health.
If you run a T2 dungeon and add all damage dealt by all players in final windows you will see total damage done by all players around 10-15M depending on what you killed on the way.
You can't do this on Tiamat, but what i do is to check total damage taken from ACT and it is 20M/head. Yes heads regenerate some health between phases, but still not that much.
...it is possible if you WORK TOGETHER and not AGAINST EACH OTHER and TRY OTHER STRATEGIES.
But hey, no one wants to do that right? No one wants to go up against each head as a party, no one wants to work with a small group, everyone wants to attempt to fight together and hope for the best.
You can't really pinpoint the blame on players. Just as you and your buddy go one way, a 25 man pug will be all over. Why one specific strategy is working or preferred over others is purely because it is simple and needs little explanation to move as just one group.
A 25 man pug with neither enough time to organize and build preferential teams nor effectively relay communication is the culprit. I would only agree with you if players have control over their instances.
You can't really pinpoint the blame on players. Just as you and your buddy go one way, a 25 man pug will be all over. Why one specific strategy is working or preferred over others is purely because it is simple and needs little explanation to move as just one group.
A 25 man pug with neither enough time to organize and build preferential teams nor effectively relay communication is the culprit. I would only agree with you if players have control over their instances.
Players do have control, they just choose not to exercise it. They rely on late queue timers in order to avoid PUGs so there is little time in the preparation phase; that is a player choice. Or if they enter early, they just stand around and don't even attempt to organize teams.
People would rather put in minimal effort and rely on almost guaranteed wins, instead of having to put in some time and effort and have to work for a win. That is what it boils down to.
Which is why the great many people on these forums who claim "we want super-hard dungeons!" are, frankly, full of it. Sure there are a few who really do want a challenge. But the great majority, I think, really just want "super-awesome loot" and don't mind glitching or exploiting a challenging dungeon (i.e., evading the challenge) in order to get it. They want easy-mode minimal effort and guaranteed wins, as opposed to hard work at only a chance at a victory.
Players do have control, they just choose not to exercise it. They rely on late queue timers in order to avoid PUGs so there is little time in the preparation phase; that is a player choice. Or if they enter early, they just stand around and don't even attempt to organize teams.
So your extent of control is limited to entering late and lose time for organising, or entering earlier and risk pugging with less desirables.
I know the Legit channel tried to organise 5 group Tiamats with moderate success in the beginning but even those disappeared because there is simply no reliable way to group like minded players into the same instance. You cannot exercise control over something that is beyond you.
Trying to organise a 25 man pug in a game where players have a preference to turn off chat channels especially zone among non like minded players in a couple of mins is not easy.
Players do have control, they just choose not to exercise it. They rely on late queue timers in order to avoid PUGs so there is little time in the preparation phase; that is a player choice. Or if they enter early, they just stand around and don't even attempt to organize teams.
People would rather put in minimal effort and rely on almost guaranteed wins, instead of having to put in some time and effort and have to work for a win. That is what it boils down to.
Which is why the great many people on these forums who claim "we want super-hard dungeons!" are, frankly, full of it. Sure there are a few who really do want a challenge. But the great majority, I think, really just want "super-awesome loot" and don't mind glitching or exploiting a challenging dungeon (i.e., evading the challenge) in order to get it. They want easy-mode minimal effort and guaranteed wins, as opposed to hard work at only a chance at a victory.
Yeah considering how even legit stopped trying for tactic parties rapidly and went to zerg's because parties couldn't be organised, ever, I call bs.
So your extent of control is limited to entering late and lose time for organising, or entering earlier and risk pugging with less desirables.
I know the Legit channel tried to organise 5 group Tiamats with moderate success in the beginning but even those disappeared because there is simply no reliable way to group like minded players into the same instance. You cannot exercise control over something that is beyond you.
Trying to organise a 25 man pug in a game where players have a preference to turn off chat channels especially zone among non like minded players in a couple of mins is not easy.
Exactly. Some people just don't get it when we say we want more challenging content sadly.
Being forced to group up with random people with no communication no organization isn't exactly fun or challenging. Its tedious for sure though.
silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited February 2015
I participated in legit tactics, but when timers started flying in Zone, it was impossible to get more then ten EVER legit people in one group, sometimes at peak hours, you were lucky to get 4-5.
So ya, your 5 couldve taken one head, but you couldnt guarantee a good buff disbursement this way all the time.
I counter with this.
If legit could put even 15 people into one instance, we would romp this and we could also do tactic's every time.
ITS not player-bases fault that cryptic refuses to allow us to premake groups. I simply fail to see how that is the players fault. I wouldnt mind some harder content myself, but that would mean we could ask people to join a group and know they wouldnt be insulted at some instruction, or drop just becuase someone dies or other <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that happens now.
I remember the first few days of this and trying to "say" things like, PLEASE do not stand on clerics, please do not attack black head, please do not use aseal and stuff like that and the answers were a F.U. for the most part.
Thats where I also draw a line, people who are rude ect, I wouldnt normally participate with in a MMO, yet Im forced to do that exactly.
If you run a T2 dungeon and add all damage dealt by all players in final windows you will see total damage done by all players around 10-15M depending on what you killed on the way.
You can't do this on Tiamat, but what i do is to check total damage taken from ACT and it is 20M/head. Yes heads regenerate some health between phases, but still not that much.
Actually totalling up PG scores after a delve gives you no idea how much total HP was in the dungeon due to over-damage.Since most of the kills are little mobs being hit with big AOEs PG gives only a vauge guestimation at best.
I don't go afk, but I've been lagged into immobility on a few occasions for like 40 seconds at a time. I'd much rather fight, and even though it doesn't happen that often, I can't even describe how frustrating that is.
I haven't read all the posts, but the problem with Tiamat, in my mind, is that it lasts so long, and most of the time you can guess the outcome in the first few minutes. If that first black head does not go down fast enough to where you can get to the green head in a timely manner, it's almost always game over. I'll dutifully carry on, but there is really no point.
Not all people which AFK are doing it willingly.
Sometimes lag is so terrible, that you can't move, can't even die, or even if you die, you can't respawn. For others it looks like you are AFK, This happened to me at least twice for my ~200 runs. The only solution is to restart game, but for some reason when you disconnect without proper logout, your char is still visible for some time and it looks like AFK. You can recognize those if they die, they stand still instead of falling down. Restarting game client leads to another problem - you usually end up in another tiamat instance ...100% of time on loosing one, because some people realized it will be loose and left, leaving open slot for you.
I am on a good computer, yet when I play in Tiamat, the lag is wretched and I can't even move!
Jadis 25K Level 80 Warlock; Cassandra.. Wizard; work in progress.
Edit: Sorry, I didn't read last 6 pages, only OP's comment.
Well.. they could technically implement that, where you get kicked after the short duration of AFK time. But, lets think about it carefully, and lets include that we are all playing equally. I work for the game company myself in japan (squire enix) and from what I know: developers can't punish those who didn't do a good job or even wasn't trying at all. It's the player themselves who has to be responsible to who they invite and how they play. That being said, there is more than 1 reason on why people stay at the entrance: "they could be lagging" is one of them, we don't know for sure. But as suggested, I think matching system can be and should be improved.
I hope people would understand and don't attack me for saying this, but because of my work.. I know many things about what type of people usually play an mmo for 4 - 5 hrs straight. Please, don't take me wrong, but most people choose international server, where everyone can access across the world. And we have a lot of uneducated people in game (not everyone!). And they give a d""" about what we think. So, there has to be some sort of control between players. Just like in dungeons where we can just simply "que" or invite people to join us. My suggestion (well, not only mine to be honest), people should be able to freely create/edit tiamat specific raid, like, you can invite up to 2 - 20 people, but they separate in 4 teams x 5 each. Wouldn't this solve many things?
i really hate these legion devils, take too long to kill or do any major damages.
Would be nice if we can get some "Devil Slayer" weapons or gem enchantments as "Bane of Devils" for maximium crit hit kills, and aura that would stop them teleport tactics for a durations.
i only got 5 linu's favor, and hadnt decide to use for unlocking or saving for dragon shield, lately, since last favor i earned few weeks ago, i got unlucky with failed grouping, too many afkers, or seeing too many low equipted players, or someone expected the group to carry and hope to win.
it been a week, only other way is to get more favors was those hoard turn-ins, but i dont get 1,500 that fast, i would get burnout and fed up with 1,500 for 1 single favor, and i am looking at getting 15,000 or more.
my solution, would be those players who turn in to hit tier 4, should recieve 3 more favors instead of 1 favor if they met most scoring "fairly", it should give "motivation" to be very active and instead of sitting around as afk mode, if these just afk, and they should get "NOTHING"!, because they just take up other players who really want to wins and suffered by going to other instanced zones with more afkers.
if the timed event failed and we should recieve better rewards and afkers get nothing and not even resonate stones they are just farming for stones, because they dont produce any or very little damages, heals, defend, or revive anyone.
it should show who did most damages, recieved most damages, and did all the tasks that need to do, they are the ones who should earn.
we cant prove it, some might have issue with lags.
few weeks ago, we used to see 2-3 dragon heads going down on first runs, now i see 1 head going down each to 85%/90% instead of 95%, and that mean there is "fails" coming soon, not enough dps recently or these heads got tougher or seem that we got nerfed by hidden debuffs?
i would like to see some reducing legion devils, it too many, maybe they need to scale back down if the lag might go away for better game performances.
I know that feeling.
But OT: There really is only 1 way to "motivate" people to keep trying, and that is by setting a hoard donation requirement high enough that people don't want to waste their attempts. But people aren't gonna like it. The reclamation level is abysmal enough as it is.
True enough. I've seen many iffy starts finish a win when the hoard gets up there
I know that feeling.
But OT: There really is only 1 way to "motivate" people to keep trying, and that is by setting a hoard donation requirement high enough that people don't want to waste their attempts. But people aren't gonna like it. The reclamation level is abysmal enough as it is.
I don't think most people care about the reclamation level anyways. The only thing there is linu and you get those no matter what on a win.
If you run a T2 dungeon and add all damage dealt by all players in final windows you will see total damage done by all players around 10-15M depending on what you killed on the way.
You can't do this on Tiamat, but what i do is to check total damage taken from ACT and it is 20M/head. Yes heads regenerate some health between phases, but still not that much.
I know the health of the bosses of T2 dungeons because I've solo'd them and calculated the damage many times to gain a fair knowledge of how much.
And if you read my entire post, you would also know that I also calculated the health of the head not by ACT but by using an power that deals a specific fixed amount of percentile damage 3% of damage of current HP. That power did 463,104 damage on a head that was untouched with the exception of a one attack to proc the power and the attack to proc it was extremely nominal.
Yes, the heads regenerate. But that does not mean they have 20m HP. That's like saying a I have 40k HP just because I can regenerate my HP and the point of the "Max HP" they have is that if you kill them (all) in the first stage, there is no regeneration so that does not even come into play at all.
Anyways, I sort of diverged from the OP and apologize for that.
Getting back on topic (almost... sorta still off a little) yesterday I fought Tiamat and anytime someone does a "/s STOP" I always respond with a very sarcastic or frankly annoying response towards that individual, something usually along the lines of, "/s NEVER! It's kill or be killed and Tiamat will DIE! Slay the beast! Slay or be slain!" Now, normally my remarks go ignored but last time something very interesting happened and I'm quite proud of THE PEOPLE as a GROUP.
We were fighting the heads during stage one as usual, doing the repeated method of black -> white. And the aforementioned comments occurred. After stage one finished, Black, Greed, and Red were down to 15-20%. Blue was down to ~60%. White hadn't been touched. The individual whom first said, "/s STOP" (btw, I respond sarcastically to that because they don't need to say, it's annoying, so I'll be kind in return to them... anyways...) he said, "KILL THEM ALL". At first I was unsure... so but sure enough, we tried... and we got **** close. 4 heads down and 1 head had like 2%.
The person who first commented made another remark, "oh well, we tried". I responded, "seriously? You're giving up? This can be done. If we all continue fighting." He responded with the usual, "they'll have 25% HP back..." I said, "Yeah, so? We kill them. Like I said earlier, it's kill or be killed and I'm not going down for a fight."
During this little discussion as we were fending off the foes from the clerics, some people had given up. But then after our discussion, most, if not all, had returned to battle and I was genuinely surprised. And with ~10 seconds remaining we had defeated Tiamat even though she returned with 4 of her five heads at 25% health. We all worked together, split up, and got the job done - even with little communication.
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Comments
This could mean that Tiamat is essentially going to become a reward for having played before module 6. I don't think that is a good thing, they need really make Tiamat easier, perhaps create a hard and easy mode, with easy giving one linu and hard something like 3 linus.
I stopped tryng to get them when I saw I needed too much time per day to get them.
SoT, LoL, and Tiamat respectively. The drop rate is crazy low though. I've seen one drop ever in LoL. You're better off just buying them on the ah when you need them rather than running them like crazy trying to win the lotto.
Haarls and Breyer from sot/esot/lol/elol. Can be pricey on AH depdends.
Dragon queen can be bought with linus from the vendor in WoD. I think its 15 linus, but also they are cheap on the AH or so I heard.
editL: you are too fast charon
On topic. AFKers/leavers can be an issue. To some point I agree with some type of autoremoval or removal of failing awards, but again to a certain point. I do understand if you can not get the first head down after phase 1, you are probably sol. But if you can get to the 2nd head and get it low enough, the instance is still possible. You have to take notice how fast the groups rotate to the first head. If the dreamer/linu groups rotate (movement to the dragon) slow, you may very well have the DPS, but the rotation was just too slow on the first phase. It can be made up on the 2nd phase if the rotations are better. Situational awareness is key. (opposite of good situational awareness, CW/DC who have no situational awareness and fling mobs all over when players already have them nicely compacted off the clerics and are burning them down)
Also on topic. I feel for those in bad instances, idk maybe Im just lucky. But I just started tia early this year and have like 85-95% success rate outta nearly 70+ runs now and I run them at all times of the day, so the crowd does vary a bit.
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There was an instance when I was fighting the entire time, dished out over 24m damage, lagged at the very end and died. Respawned to the room and used my injury kit then the cutscene appeared saying we defeated Tiamat and everyone (most) were saying their rewards in /say while I received absolutely nothing for it.
As for as the people complaining about how the fight is setup... Right now the basic way to do it we all know - black -> white. With a really good alliance and/or tier 4, this can be done within 2 rounds. Now, I'm not a fan of playing by people saying "this is how it's done - do it this way" especially when they haven't even bothered to attempt (which, admittedly, is hard given random instances) various methods and strategies.
Tiamat CAN BE DEFEATED within the first round (regardless of which tier it's on). How do I know this? Because a guild member and myself took out two dragon heads (White -> Blue) within the 2 minute first round. If TWO people can work together to take out TWO dragon heads, 25 people can do it to take out 5. And while my friend is extremely well geared with legendary artifact equipment and artifacts, I, myself, only have 1 single legendary artifact piece which is the Sigil of Devoted. I know how to play my class, work with my friend, and we can work together (rather than `against each other` as a lot of people seem to be doing) to get it done.
As for people with low GS, I decided to go on with one of my ALTs who happens to have 12k GS. Nothing special, not even an epic artifact or any artifact equipment/weapons. I dealt over 10m damage (which usually falls under "top 5 damage dealers"), no deaths, and came in 1st on the Rank. Just because my GS is 12k doesn't mean I can't play that class - another reason I'm glad their getting rid of Gear Score. It's total BS.
[side note: I know some people are going to call me out on this and frankly I could careless. But there are those people who will read this and know exactly what I'm talking about - those are the skilled players, who not only know their class - BUT KNOW HOW TO WORK AS A GROUP even if it is a duo or trio or an alliance of 25]
TL;DR
You want to get the job done - do it. Two people to a dragon, both people who can work with each other, play off each other, and not necessarily do what will give "them the most damage" but instead cumulatively deal the most damage can get the job done in a single round - REGARDLESS OF TIER 1 - 4.
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The way tiamat is setup, it's nearly impossible to coordinate 5 separate groups of characters (that complements or coordinate well).
I have however been in instances where Tiamat is defeated in the first phase, so I know for a fact that THAT is completely possible, but that consists of very high GS zerg runs.
Each Head has 20M health.
Just for comparison Epic T2 dungeons (all mobs+bosses) have around 10M Health totoal
Castle Never has around 25M
VT has around 15M
ELOL has ~ 10M
If 2 people have to kill a head for 1 min (2 heads for 2 min) that would mean 10 000 000/60 = 166.6K DPS (damage per second) each, not counting time for moving from one head to another and time you spend being stunned, frozen, pushed etc.
The 5 Dragon's in the Well of Dragons have 13.5m HP Each.
Each of Tiamat's Heads have 15.5m Max HP. I say "Max HP" because as we all (should) know, if it reaches stage 2 and/or 3 they regenerate some of their health.
One reason I know this is due to a simple test. Running up one of the heads no one is fighting, and using an encounter at full health while wearing the Fabled set. The set bonus - Corrupted Fire - deals 3% of the targets current HP in damage. I dealt 463,104 dmg with Corrupted Fire. 15,500,000*0.03 = 465,000. Given initial damage to trigger the effect as well as various other factors, I think it's fair to say the initial HP of each head is 15.5m.
Another reason I know is I parse data and combat logs and it's not terribly hard to figure it out.
Why would we count time for being stunned, frozen, or pushed? During that time neither of us were stunned, frozen, pushed, or held any control effects on us. We know how to play our classes, maneuver properly, and the best thing, we know how to use gems - yes, they are usable and they do help.
Anyways, my whole point of my original post wasn't to emphasize that feat. It was to emphasize it is VERY MUCH possible to defeat Tiamat during the first stage, not only that, but also to do it with people AFK. Not that I support or condone people being afk, far from it, quite the opposite actually, but it is possible if you WORK TOGETHER and not AGAINST EACH OTHER and TRY OTHER STRATEGIES.
But hey, no one wants to do that right? No one wants to go up against each head as a party, no one wants to work with a small group, everyone wants to attempt to fight together and hope for the best.
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If you run a T2 dungeon and add all damage dealt by all players in final windows you will see total damage done by all players around 10-15M depending on what you killed on the way.
You can't do this on Tiamat, but what i do is to check total damage taken from ACT and it is 20M/head. Yes heads regenerate some health between phases, but still not that much.
A 25 man pug with neither enough time to organize and build preferential teams nor effectively relay communication is the culprit. I would only agree with you if players have control over their instances.
Players do have control, they just choose not to exercise it. They rely on late queue timers in order to avoid PUGs so there is little time in the preparation phase; that is a player choice. Or if they enter early, they just stand around and don't even attempt to organize teams.
People would rather put in minimal effort and rely on almost guaranteed wins, instead of having to put in some time and effort and have to work for a win. That is what it boils down to.
Which is why the great many people on these forums who claim "we want super-hard dungeons!" are, frankly, full of it. Sure there are a few who really do want a challenge. But the great majority, I think, really just want "super-awesome loot" and don't mind glitching or exploiting a challenging dungeon (i.e., evading the challenge) in order to get it. They want easy-mode minimal effort and guaranteed wins, as opposed to hard work at only a chance at a victory.
I know the Legit channel tried to organise 5 group Tiamats with moderate success in the beginning but even those disappeared because there is simply no reliable way to group like minded players into the same instance. You cannot exercise control over something that is beyond you.
Trying to organise a 25 man pug in a game where players have a preference to turn off chat channels especially zone among non like minded players in a couple of mins is not easy.
Yeah considering how even legit stopped trying for tactic parties rapidly and went to zerg's because parties couldn't be organised, ever, I call bs.
Exactly. Some people just don't get it when we say we want more challenging content sadly.
Being forced to group up with random people with no communication no organization isn't exactly fun or challenging. Its tedious for sure though.
God yes.
/10char
So ya, your 5 couldve taken one head, but you couldnt guarantee a good buff disbursement this way all the time.
I counter with this.
If legit could put even 15 people into one instance, we would romp this and we could also do tactic's every time.
ITS not player-bases fault that cryptic refuses to allow us to premake groups. I simply fail to see how that is the players fault. I wouldnt mind some harder content myself, but that would mean we could ask people to join a group and know they wouldnt be insulted at some instruction, or drop just becuase someone dies or other <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that happens now.
I remember the first few days of this and trying to "say" things like, PLEASE do not stand on clerics, please do not attack black head, please do not use aseal and stuff like that and the answers were a F.U. for the most part.
Thats where I also draw a line, people who are rude ect, I wouldnt normally participate with in a MMO, yet Im forced to do that exactly.
Actually totalling up PG scores after a delve gives you no idea how much total HP was in the dungeon due to over-damage.Since most of the kills are little mobs being hit with big AOEs PG gives only a vauge guestimation at best.
I am on a good computer, yet when I play in Tiamat, the lag is wretched and I can't even move!
Try turning off multi-core rendering in advanced options. It fixed the tiamat lag for me. I think that option is full of buggy code.
Well.. they could technically implement that, where you get kicked after the short duration of AFK time. But, lets think about it carefully, and lets include that we are all playing equally. I work for the game company myself in japan (squire enix) and from what I know: developers can't punish those who didn't do a good job or even wasn't trying at all. It's the player themselves who has to be responsible to who they invite and how they play. That being said, there is more than 1 reason on why people stay at the entrance: "they could be lagging" is one of them, we don't know for sure. But as suggested, I think matching system can be and should be improved.
I hope people would understand and don't attack me for saying this, but because of my work.. I know many things about what type of people usually play an mmo for 4 - 5 hrs straight. Please, don't take me wrong, but most people choose international server, where everyone can access across the world. And we have a lot of uneducated people in game (not everyone!). And they give a d""" about what we think. So, there has to be some sort of control between players. Just like in dungeons where we can just simply "que" or invite people to join us. My suggestion (well, not only mine to be honest), people should be able to freely create/edit tiamat specific raid, like, you can invite up to 2 - 20 people, but they separate in 4 teams x 5 each. Wouldn't this solve many things?
Would be nice if we can get some "Devil Slayer" weapons or gem enchantments as "Bane of Devils" for maximium crit hit kills, and aura that would stop them teleport tactics for a durations.
i only got 5 linu's favor, and hadnt decide to use for unlocking or saving for dragon shield, lately, since last favor i earned few weeks ago, i got unlucky with failed grouping, too many afkers, or seeing too many low equipted players, or someone expected the group to carry and hope to win.
it been a week, only other way is to get more favors was those hoard turn-ins, but i dont get 1,500 that fast, i would get burnout and fed up with 1,500 for 1 single favor, and i am looking at getting 15,000 or more.
my solution, would be those players who turn in to hit tier 4, should recieve 3 more favors instead of 1 favor if they met most scoring "fairly", it should give "motivation" to be very active and instead of sitting around as afk mode, if these just afk, and they should get "NOTHING"!, because they just take up other players who really want to wins and suffered by going to other instanced zones with more afkers.
if the timed event failed and we should recieve better rewards and afkers get nothing and not even resonate stones they are just farming for stones, because they dont produce any or very little damages, heals, defend, or revive anyone.
it should show who did most damages, recieved most damages, and did all the tasks that need to do, they are the ones who should earn.
we cant prove it, some might have issue with lags.
few weeks ago, we used to see 2-3 dragon heads going down on first runs, now i see 1 head going down each to 85%/90% instead of 95%, and that mean there is "fails" coming soon, not enough dps recently or these heads got tougher or seem that we got nerfed by hidden debuffs?
i would like to see some reducing legion devils, it too many, maybe they need to scale back down if the lag might go away for better game performances.
but
the "red lag" is a real problem.
most times it last till I die
True enough. I've seen many iffy starts finish a win when the hoard gets up there
I don't think most people care about the reclamation level anyways. The only thing there is linu and you get those no matter what on a win.
I know the health of the bosses of T2 dungeons because I've solo'd them and calculated the damage many times to gain a fair knowledge of how much.
And if you read my entire post, you would also know that I also calculated the health of the head not by ACT but by using an power that deals a specific fixed amount of percentile damage 3% of damage of current HP. That power did 463,104 damage on a head that was untouched with the exception of a one attack to proc the power and the attack to proc it was extremely nominal.
Yes, the heads regenerate. But that does not mean they have 20m HP. That's like saying a I have 40k HP just because I can regenerate my HP and the point of the "Max HP" they have is that if you kill them (all) in the first stage, there is no regeneration so that does not even come into play at all.
Anyways, I sort of diverged from the OP and apologize for that.
Getting back on topic (almost... sorta still off a little) yesterday I fought Tiamat and anytime someone does a "/s STOP" I always respond with a very sarcastic or frankly annoying response towards that individual, something usually along the lines of, "/s NEVER! It's kill or be killed and Tiamat will DIE! Slay the beast! Slay or be slain!" Now, normally my remarks go ignored but last time something very interesting happened and I'm quite proud of THE PEOPLE as a GROUP.
We were fighting the heads during stage one as usual, doing the repeated method of black -> white. And the aforementioned comments occurred. After stage one finished, Black, Greed, and Red were down to 15-20%. Blue was down to ~60%. White hadn't been touched. The individual whom first said, "/s STOP" (btw, I respond sarcastically to that because they don't need to say, it's annoying, so I'll be kind in return to them... anyways...) he said, "KILL THEM ALL". At first I was unsure... so but sure enough, we tried... and we got **** close. 4 heads down and 1 head had like 2%.
The person who first commented made another remark, "oh well, we tried". I responded, "seriously? You're giving up? This can be done. If we all continue fighting." He responded with the usual, "they'll have 25% HP back..." I said, "Yeah, so? We kill them. Like I said earlier, it's kill or be killed and I'm not going down for a fight."
During this little discussion as we were fending off the foes from the clerics, some people had given up. But then after our discussion, most, if not all, had returned to battle and I was genuinely surprised. And with ~10 seconds remaining we had defeated Tiamat even though she returned with 4 of her five heads at 25% health. We all worked together, split up, and got the job done - even with little communication.
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