Like the 20k players who have no idea what to do in Tiamat and then the raid fails and then they blame "low GS" as a scapegoat? yeah that's never happeend
Oh that happens a lot. And what they say is true. Not enough DPS, not enough players who are able to communicate, not enough players who are able to follow simple instructions, not enough players who have half-decent gear.
People hating on low GS inside Tiamat is really not the players fault, it's the devs. They messed up the teaming mechanics.
Actually I think it has been quite illustrative. Now it has been demonstrated on the forums that, evidently, most people believe that if your GS is only 10k, that it means you are a bad, worthless, lazy idiot player who has problems finding the keyboard, let alone knowing how to play the game.
I want to help people I know and play with not random people whom I only share the game with. FORCING ME to play with random people is not about helping them or not helping them, the Encounter Model is basically let the low GS people in and we will Force High GS people to Help them whether they want to or not. The Game basically treats High GS people as Companion for Low GS people to help them out, at the very Least the Encounter could have Some Logic to Populating an instance instead of first come first served.
The low GS players are buffing YOU as well. That 10k DC using Divine Glow or that 10k TR using Wicked Reminder or that 10k GF using Tide of Iron is buffing YOUR damage as well. The "companion" analogy works both ways you know.
The low GS players are buffing YOU as well. That 10k DC using Divine Glow or that 10k TR using Wicked Reminder or that 10k GF using Tide of Iron is buffing YOUR damage as well. The "companion" analogy works both ways you know.
YES, and I want know my party composition for that so Premades is required for party buff/play.
I see you point clearly that Tiamat needs premades and higher gear parties just enjoy relaxed gaming, I agree that wtih you.
ps. tiamat is one encounter what I will not farm for boons, its cheaper buy boons materials... only premades will make tiamat playable for me. (nurf leadership then)
Tiamat is a pure DPS race. GS doesn't make a player good or bad; however, those with 13K+ (especially in the 15 to 18K+) tend to produce far more DPS as well as have other stats like good defense and armor pen. If the stats are lacking for power, armor pen, crit, defense, etc. then Tiamat is a bust. Buffs only go so far and there are 13K to 20K+ buffing. Whose buffs would I rather? Play it all you like, but the 10K's going into Tiamat either guarantee a loss or otherwise are being carried by the higher geared players.
Folks, let me give my opinion about being a GS Snob (or a ****ing GS Elitist as it being called in WoD zone chat).
As being a (Protector) GF I have been working hard through all the Modules to get where I am now, Gear wise, Proper Enchantments and the right choices of Artifacts and Companions and I am **** proud of it and I have respect for all those players who have done the same (except those Invoked players). I have leveled up with great joy to 60, reached that level I was able to enter the grinding grounds in Sharandar and Dreadring which was quite different as what I have been doing thus far but was forced to do it to gather achievements GS wise to be able of entering IWD and honestly it felt pretty good when reaching those achievements and decked myself in Black Ice gear but wasn’t quite as what I expected and swapped back to Old school T2 gear which gave me better stats for myself and the group.
With this being said.
WoD came alive, and honestly I was shocked by the fact that the GS requirements where being lower that the one we needed to enter IWD while the mobs are harder to beat. Anyhow I started to grind again for draconic gear which was a slightly upgrade for my Old School gear. The Temple opened his gates so I could proceed to upgrade my gear even more which is a normal thing to achieve in every MMO. But what do I see????
Players with 10k gear score are entering the Temple, players who (after checking gear, enchants and companion) have skipped Sharandar, Dreadring and IWD, players with blue/green gear and 2 or 3 pieces of purple <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> from AH (for reaching 10k). Rank 3 / 4 Enchantments (mostly wrong ones too, but hey... who cares) and occasionally even with the pants/shirt you start the game with. I can prove it because I have dozens of screenshots of these hero’s but not allowed to post them here due name policy.
I have been a lot of times in groups who are able to beat Tiamat in 2 rounds and occasionally even in a single round (yes, I’m talking about those GS snobs) but have also experienced those low GS “Brute Force” zerg groups. Players who are not able to place a dent in Tiamat dps wise, and those who are saying that its different then those are being carried by a high level group. This happened to me yesterday... As always I go to Black/green Dragon head and stood there with a few "Uber" 10k players who didn’t do much other than standing on top of the Cleric while I and a GWF tried to kill these waves. It was pathetic to see this happening and finally I got relieved so I rushed to black head and engaged, fought for over a minute alone before this “Brutal Force” zerg arrived. Next thing what happened was kinda sad to see and humoristic at the same time, in the first second of the breath at least 60% of the players dropped like flies (caused by lacking proper gear and decent resists), nevertheless I kept going on and the group was able to get 1th head down to a whopping 80% in first round… that was the point I gave up because its wasted time and effort to proceed with this doomed fail (does this make me a GS Elitist?). Then the zone chat comes alive, nothing else than talks about those ****ing Elitists who left a on forehand doomed Tiamat run while they are the cause of these fails by themselfes
Grouping with players in the 13/17k range is much more desired because they are able to produce enough DPS to get Tiamat down within time.
What I see happen is that when these 10k players reaching the Temple ground is that they checking for high GS players and follow them when they entering the Temple in the hope to get a free and easy ride to obtain gear they do not deserve, I know it because I have tricked quite a few of these parasites into entering with a fake run to the door, and yes.. If that makes me a Snob or an Elitist then so be it. Personally I do not participate much anymore in Tiamat runs due I refuse to let them ruin my fun in this Game and help those instead with getting them in the T2 gear they need, for those players I have respect and not for those parasites who think they get easy chances on the new gear they don’t deserve. Let me being an Elitist but these are the **** facts and honestly I do not know what kind of weed the developers have been smoking by creating a new mod this way.
The only reasonable thing what they can do is give the players the possibility to form their own groups (even a complete raid force or change settings to the GS requirements which is desired, as we had with IWD) just to get rid of these parasites so they returning where they belong (Sharandar and Dreadring) and come back when they are capable to make a difference.
In the meantime this Elitist is helping those who deserve to be helped without getting the feeling that I am a high GS companion for them. And those who defend those parasites I say, screw you and start working on your gear.
Developers made a big mistake with bringing WoD alive with these requirements
Why do people continue to insist that low GS consists of terrible people not knowing what to do when it is just not true?
Oh and by the way 10k GS is not "greens and blues", it is a full T1 set for most classes.
Of course they can, due to all of the buffs and debuffs stacking. Actually a perfectly played 10-11k GS team could do it, due to how all of the buffs work.
I should have read this thread but I didn't since there are so many like this..but this caught my attention. It still seems to me that people who have alts and can be capable in difficult content with low GS take insult to this GS/Tiamat subject. Does low low GS always identify a bad/no skill player? No. We got that. Does it identify that you may have a bad/no skill player if he/she is rockin' 10k, imho, yea...it does. When I go into Tiamat and I see a bunch of folks runnin' around with their companions in tow...I kind of know how it's gonna be. So I inspect a few and what do I find? The GS I was expecting to see.
It also seems as though the 10k people are discussed at max potential, what their debuffs/buffs can do, blah, blah, blah. What's the point, there are clearly more folks at a couple of K more gearscore that run around in there with no idea what to do and fail. The meter for success and failure for that place should be set on what we can expect from players in general and what level of error their gear can provide. A 15-16k player has more potential to provide something to the cause than a 10k player who has nearly nothing besides skill to offer. I guess there are many diffrenet ways to word what I'm sayin but simply - 10k folks have no room for error.
Yes, low gs is lazy. Why are you even defending 10k gs so hard? You honestly don't even need to try to achieve 10k gs. You're pretty much handed it when reaching level 60. The game has released so much content that you are obviously meant to do. Why should everyone carry their <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> just because they can't be bothered to do ANY of it. The min requirement for epic dread vault is 8.3k gs, if you enter with that which some people do, you deserve to get your <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> kicked. You are never entitled to be carried if you don't want to even put in basic effort for your character. If you enter the raid with 10k gs, then you're 1 of three things
1) Ill-informed and need to learn that you don't get to skip most of the game content to reach end game
2) A self entitled ******bag who think's they're so special and don't care for being a burden on the team
3) Lazy, though can be classed as #2
10k gs is beta gear. If you are skilled you can easily and quickly get better than that. Otherwise yes, you are lazy and/or selfish. And no, no-one else is required to hold your hand.
A similar analogy would be a soldier turning up for a war wasted and with his armour back to front. He could be a skilled soldier, but lets be honest. He's letting the side down. Or having an important test but not studying. You may be smart, but you're not preparing yourself properly. At least in that case you're only letting yourself down not the
If you ask for high gs only, yes you're a snob. Defending 10k gs makes you just as bad as those that are true snobs and ask for 17k+ gs in the opposite direction.
You obviously need to know how to work in a group, so you should be doing previous grouped content actually designed for your level. Tiamat was not designed for 10k gs and neither should it have been. People should not care about themselves more than actually getting themselves prepared. There's no promise a high gs didn't buy their gear or is skilled, but at least he has some gear to at least compensate for it a little. If you have a low gs, you clearly have little experience in your character and are unlikely to know how to play your class well. It's theoretically possible, but unlikely for the majority and you still don't have the gear to utilise it. I honestly don't even know why this needs to be discussed.
If I can reach 15-16k gs on characters I don't focus on, you can (which you do) reach last modules requirements of 13k gs without an issue. If you don't you're entitled and lazy. There's no other explanation. If you ask for 17k+ gsers only you're also entitled. If you ask for 13-14k as a minimum, then you're just expecting a basic requirement that comes from just playing the game at a decent pace. Content need to be hard and harder so that we keep having challenging stuff to do and as such, if you're injecting more gs into the game, those requirements need to be lifted too.
To say it's snobbery is like saying the fact their are any gs or level requirements is snobbery. History has shown there are a lot of dungeons that don't reflect the true required minimum gs needed. Tiamat is no different. Plus why should you skip 3/4 whole modules AND the beta level 60 stuff.
Yes, low gs is lazy. Why are you even defending 10k gs so hard? You honestly don't even need to try to achieve 10k gs. You're pretty much handed it when reaching level 60. The game has released so much content that you are obviously meant to do. Why should everyone carry their <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> just because they can't be bothered to do ANY of it. The min requirement for epic dread vault is 8.3k gs, if you enter with that which some people do, you deserve to get your <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> kicked. You are never entitled to be carried if you don't want to even put in basic effort for your character. If you enter the raid with 10k gs, then you're 1 of three things
1) Ill-informed and need to learn that you don't get to skip most of the game content to reach end game
2) A self entitled ******bag who think's they're so special and don't care for being a burden on the team
3) Lazy, though can be classed as #2
10k gs is beta gear. If you are skilled you can easily and quickly get better than that. Otherwise yes, you are lazy and/or selfish. And no, no-one else is required to hold your hand.
A similar analogy would be a soldier turning up for a war wasted and with his armour back to front. He could be a skilled soldier, but lets be honest. He's letting the side down. Or having an important test but not studying. You may be smart, but you're not preparing yourself properly. At least in that case you're only letting yourself down not the
If you ask for high gs only, yes you're a snob. Defending 10k gs makes you just as bad as those that are true snobs and ask for 17k+ gs in the opposite direction.
You obviously need to know how to work in a group, so you should be doing previous grouped content actually designed for your level. Tiamat was not designed for 10k gs and neither should it have been. People should not care about themselves more than actually getting themselves prepared. There's no promise a high gs didn't buy their gear or is skilled, but at least he has some gear to at least compensate for it a little. If you have a low gs, you clearly have little experience in your character and are unlikely to know how to play your class well. It's theoretically possible, but unlikely for the majority and you still don't have the gear to utilise it. I honestly don't even know why this needs to be discussed.
If I can reach 15-16k gs on characters I don't focus on, you can (which you do) reach last modules requirements of 13k gs without an issue. If you don't you're entitled and lazy. There's no other explanation. If you ask for 17k+ gsers only you're also entitled. If you ask for 13-14k as a minimum, then you're just expecting a basic requirement that comes from just playing the game at a decent pace. Content need to be hard and harder so that we keep having challenging stuff to do and as such, if you're injecting more gs into the game, those requirements need to be lifted too.
To say it's snobbery is like saying the fact their are any gs or level requirements is snobbery. History has shown there are a lot of dungeons that don't reflect the true required minimum gs needed. Tiamat is no different. Plus why should you skip 3/4 whole modules AND the beta level 60 stuff.
Even I don't deny that most the people that run 10kgs in tiamat should run some other content first. It's not hard to gear up, and it's even easier now in mod5. The only thing I've been defending is the philosophy of setting the min requirement to get in at a level that could technically be done but brutally difficult to do. I'm still convinced that 10kgs players if they played a perfect game on voice chat with a perfect composition could get it done. That however is not your average match, and even with that setup I'd expect the 10kgs team to lose 9 out of 10 times. But that's also my opinion on where min requirements should be.
Even I don't deny that most the people that run 10kgs in tiamat should run some other content first. It's not hard to gear up, and it's even easier now in mod5. The only thing I've been defending is the philosophy of setting the min requirement to get in at a level that could technically be done but brutally difficult to do. I'm still convinced that 10kgs players if they played a perfect game on voice chat with a perfect composition could get it done. That however is not your average match, and even with that setup I'd expect the 10kgs team to lose 9 out of 10 times. But that's also my opinion on where min requirements should be.
It'd be nice to try out properly with an experienced group just to see how possible it is even if it doesn't say that your pug group could.. It's a shame that you can't form your own raids to find out though. Although I suppose if you really wanted to, one could just do it on preview where noone plays it anyway. People are more willing on live though.
Yes, low gs is lazy. Why are you even defending 10k gs so hard? You honestly don't even need to try to achieve 10k gs. You're pretty much handed it when reaching level 60. The game has released so much content that you are obviously meant to do. Why should everyone carry their <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> just because they can't be bothered to do ANY of it. The min requirement for epic dread vault is 8.3k gs, if you enter with that which some people do, you deserve to get your <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> kicked. You are never entitled to be carried if you don't want to even put in basic effort for your character. If you enter the raid with 10k gs, then you're 1 of three things
1) Ill-informed and need to learn that you don't get to skip most of the game content to reach end game
2) A self entitled ******bag who think's they're so special and don't care for being a burden on the team
3) Lazy, though can be classed as #2
10k gs is beta gear. If you are skilled you can easily and quickly get better than that. Otherwise yes, you are lazy and/or selfish. And no, no-one else is required to hold your hand.
A similar analogy would be a soldier turning up for a war wasted and with his armour back to front. He could be a skilled soldier, but lets be honest. He's letting the side down. Or having an important test but not studying. You may be smart, but you're not preparing yourself properly. At least in that case you're only letting yourself down not the
If you ask for high gs only, yes you're a snob. Defending 10k gs makes you just as bad as those that are true snobs and ask for 17k+ gs in the opposite direction.
You obviously need to know how to work in a group, so you should be doing previous grouped content actually designed for your level. Tiamat was not designed for 10k gs and neither should it have been. People should not care about themselves more than actually getting themselves prepared. There's no promise a high gs didn't buy their gear or is skilled, but at least he has some gear to at least compensate for it a little. If you have a low gs, you clearly have little experience in your character and are unlikely to know how to play your class well. It's theoretically possible, but unlikely for the majority and you still don't have the gear to utilise it. I honestly don't even know why this needs to be discussed.
If I can reach 15-16k gs on characters I don't focus on, you can (which you do) reach last modules requirements of 13k gs without an issue. If you don't you're entitled and lazy. There's no other explanation. If you ask for 17k+ gsers only you're also entitled. If you ask for 13-14k as a minimum, then you're just expecting a basic requirement that comes from just playing the game at a decent pace. Content need to be hard and harder so that we keep having challenging stuff to do and as such, if you're injecting more gs into the game, those requirements need to be lifted too.
To say it's snobbery is like saying the fact their are any gs or level requirements is snobbery. History has shown there are a lot of dungeons that don't reflect the true required minimum gs needed. Tiamat is no different. Plus why should you skip 3/4 whole modules AND the beta level 60 stuff.
I second to this post.
If there is a way to get a raidgroup together only filled with these "paper" Hero's and they succeed then they have earned my respect, but this wont happen due simple fact's.
Missing required gear, missing proper enchantments, missing the much needed DR and Reflect chances and is doesn't matter if they are skilled or not they simply fail at Tiamat if they don't get carried bij high GS players.
I believe someone challanged Cryptic to do the same, form a 25 raidgroup (only developers and such), with the gear of a 10.5k GS player, with simple weapons, enchants and so on just to see if their views are correct...
It's not about 10k GS players being scrubs or lazy or idiots in general, but the best players in 10k gear couldn't beat Tiamat, especially not because you're unable to pick your party/HE composition.
Yes, 10k players help debuffing and all, but a 18k GS players does it better. And since it's a pure DPS race that my little sis can run, you don't even need smart players, just the ones that have high numbers in their Character Sheet.
Again: ***** at PWE, players are doing what is needed to get what they want.
Why do I defend the 10k GS players? Because nobody else in these forums is going to do that. Most people around here is 18k+++ and evidently think 10k GS means that the player is a leech or an idiot. Everybody here was 10k GS at one point or another but it seems as though most of you forgot what it was like to be a relatively new player. And an awful lot of you mistake "high GS" with intelligence or skill. GS is GEAR score. Not skill score, not intelligence score, not talent score.
Maths and testing has shown that an unbuffed 10k GS player is right on the edge of being able to deliver an "average" amount of DPS for the Tiamat fight (where "average" is defined as total Tiamat HP divided by 25 players). And we all know buffs and debuffs will significantly increase this amount to a far higher value. But math and actual empirical evidence won't convince any of the GS snobs around here anymore that anyone less than 13k is deemed worthy of admission. They will just come up with some other subjective standard to support their bias.
Yes, 10k players help debuffing and all, but a 18k GS players does it better.
For MOST of the significant buffs, this is not true. Divine Glow, Tide of Iron, Smolder, Battle Fury, Wicked Reminder - all are buffs that are independent of the player's GS.
Which would you rather have - a 10k High Prophet Righteous DC or an 18k Avatar of War Destroyer GWF? Choose wisely.
Low GS is a good indication of a lack of investment of time and effort into the game.
So the person who bought his GS off of the AH has made a significant investment of time and effort to the game, then? Oh give me a break.
Why do I defend the 10k GS players? Because nobody else in these forums is going to do that. Most people around here is 18k+++ and evidently think 10k GS means that the player is a leech or an idiot. Everybody here was 10k GS at one point or another but it seems as though most of you forgot what it was like to be a relatively new player. And an awful lot of you mistake "high GS" with intelligence or skill. GS is GEAR score. Not skill score, not intelligence score, not talent score.
Maths and testing has shown that an unbuffed 10k GS player is right on the edge of being able to deliver an "average" amount of DPS for the Tiamat fight (where "average" is defined as total Tiamat HP divided by 25 players). And we all know buffs and debuffs will significantly increase this amount to a far higher value. But math and actual empirical evidence won't convince any of the GS snobs around here anymore that anyone less than 13k is deemed worthy of admission. They will just come up with some other subjective standard to support their bias.
For MOST of the significant buffs, this is not true. Divine Glow, Tide of Iron, Smolder, Battle Fury, Wicked Reminder - all are buffs that are independent of the player's GS.
Which would you rather have - a 10k High Prophet Righteous DC or an 18k Avatar of War Destroyer GWF? Choose wisely.
So the person who bought his GS off of the AH has made a significant investment of time and effort to the game, then? Oh give me a break.
yea lets now come back to reality. The majority of my tiamat fails are due to lack of dps which is strictly related to gear/gear score.
Organizing 25 people at the cleric phase is not easy, that phase is going to last longer (time lost)
People die (time lost)
dragon head to dragon head (time lost)
so when is theoretically possible to do things with 10k people it will never happen in reality, never.
gear score becomes the only indicator of how the instance is more likely going to end.
it's like when you go out to find a gal, you see the first one but she is not of your likes, turn around a try again even tho that girl could have been the more entertaining one you ever met.
tl;dr no one forces me to play with undergeared people so i will do all the possible to change instance when this happens. For the note like no one forces me to play with those, no one forced them to skip 90% of the contents.
They do their choices i do mine.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
These choices aren't replicated in real situations. 10k GS players can't even communicate use the right enchantments, pick the right artifact or use the right skills and now you expect them to have the in-game knowledge to debuff?
Yes, 10k players can make the right decisions. For example, recently I did CN with a 40k hp, 6k defense 9.7k gs tank who was using kv. He was a strong asset to the team and we managed just fine, running door to door with a 10k tank who didn't fall over dead once. In contrast, when pugging I more often the not run into a 14k-18k gs tank with 32-38k hp and 2.5-5k defence who will refuse to use kv, saying he needs ~20k gs to be able to safely use it. For the same reason, you will be able to get 10k clerics who are able to apply buffs correctly and 10k CW's who are able to manage adds, heck, I know with 10k gs I can and I know a few others with 10k gs who could. Stating that 10k gs=stupid is a stereotype which doesn't cover all players and believing it does is silly. True, a few of my chars are 16-18k, however I do still have some 10k chars including a SW and they are perfectly capable of pulling their weight.
The point is, even though they aren't alts, if I am capable of building a 10k char correctly then so are they.
Maybe. But only if they came on here and read some guides, and that's a very small percentage of the population of any MMO.
Tiamat is tough for even well-built low GS characters. I have three toons <13k GS and I'm not taking any of them in there - although the 12k DC in High Prophet might make a go of it actually. It's simple common sense.
Maybe. But only if they came on here and read some guides, and that's a very small percentage of the population of any MMO.
Tiamat is tough for even well-built low GS characters. I have three toons <13k GS and I'm not taking any of them in there - although the 12k DC in High Prophet might make a go of it actually. It's simple common sense.
Only reason i dont take my alts there is cause i cant afford to upgrade those items...
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clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
edited December 2014
If people want to be GS snobs in Tiamat then they need to be more specific. You can have a high gs that is built for pvp survivability, and you can be a squishy low GS and built for DPS and more more valuable in Tiamat, being squishy in Tiamat does not seem to be a problem to me, most people die if nobody used the dragon gem at the right time (which has zero to do with GS), having 20k hp or 60 hp makes no difference, you cannot always face tank those devils but a few extra dodges is all that requires.
So its basically the power stat that matters (and armour penetration), but even that can be helped, a lowly DC with High Prophet can essentially give 24 others 5000 extra power when zerging a dragon. I once took my 12k ranger into Tiamat, it was dishing out those +100k criticals more than enough to make the required dps needed from each.
Like somebody else here mentioned, I don't know what the problem is, Tiamat is not that hard, I have had an over 90% success rate with Tiamat and am now basically done with my main, the biggest cause of failure so far has been that cleric bug where the dragon heads don't show. Perhaps I have just been lucky with all the groups I ended up with, but I think this snobbery is much of a muchness, with zerg runs it should be doable most of the time.
If people want to be GS snobs in Tiamat then they need to be more specific. You can have a high gs that is built for pvp survivability, and you can be a squishy low GS and built for DPS and more more valuable in Tiamat, being squishy in Tiamat does not seem to be a problem to me, most people die if nobody used the dragon gem at the right time (which has zero to do with GS), having 20k hp or 60 hp makes no difference, you cannot always face tank those devils but a few extra dodges is all that requires.
Being squishy is indeed a problem, I've seen people dying from a usual head attack, that cleaves in front of it for ~10-15k damage on geared characters. Yes, true PvE'ers with zero defense stats drop like flies attacking heads in melee.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
I am quite sure, that a 22k+ BIS PvP char outdpses a 10k dps PvE char of the same class. They now how to play, most of them have PvP and PvE gear. My PvP GWF has 11k+ power in PvE gear. Lets see how a 10k GWF does more dmg.
Tiamat is a DPS race, plain and simple. In order to do proper DPS, you need 20% to 24% armor penetration; that's typically 2K to 2.4Kish in armor penetration. If you want to survive most of the battle, you need at least lessor soulforge in armor, and approximately 2K defense (3 to 5K if a GWF or GF). You also need power as well; at least 4K. If you are a crit build, then at least > 30% crit. At 10K to even 12K GS, you don't have the above stats; you typically don't approach those stats until at least 15K GS.
As for those classes that state that through buffing/debuffing they help others.. great, but only to a point; and if you need several rezzes per instance, then you are significantly lowering DPS.
Well I don't really blame the new players. I blame the game design.
Sure, when I was a new player, I was smart enough to not keep going into endgame content that I was undergeared/undertrained for. I was smart enough to look for a reputable guild, forum guides, youtube videos for help.
However, not every new player is able to think like that. They see that Tiamat is the shiny new thing and they will participate. You can't really blame them because they can rationalize that they are over the GS requirement. (note that there is a good counter argument to this that new players could be a little selfish and expect higher geared players to carry them)
The point is: the big endgame content shouldn't be accessible by a fresh new player, or at least create an "epic" version that requires 15-16k GS.
Gear score is just one factor in the equation of selfish/stupid people dragging down the group. It can sometimes be definitive, rogues at 10k for example, you're a single target damage class but if you can't even do significant damage then what are you doing in at Timat? I think everyone should agree with that. But yes, it's generally that gear score isn't the only determinant, there are also the people who don't seem interested in strategy. Sometimes one group is struggling on a cleric and NOBODY except me goes to help them, the other two are full and that one is at half, and nobody cares, and it takes a long time. Those people also need to correct that quickly remove themselves from Timat and stop being parasites
Gear score caps for Timat are a fantastic idea. But also public discussion of strategy is crucial, that people don't communicate enough is a problem.
Why do I defend the 10k GS players? Because nobody else in these forums is going to do that.
For good reason. They don't deserve defending. They have the right to play content designed for their level. They do not have the right to be entitled for end game content when not even working for it. When I was level 60, I didn't start doing CN runs. I actually worked on my characters so that they were ready for the content. My first one had t1 pvp gear, others skipped t1 and went for t2 gauntlegrym gear as a simple and fairly effective way of gearing up.
Which would you rather have - a 10k High Prophet Righteous DC or an 18k Avatar of War Destroyer GWF? Choose wisely.
I'll take a gwf and 15-20+k HP DC which shouldn't be unexpected out of 25 players. You obviously have more experience and are more likely to know your class better when you have been playing more and acquired more gs. People can buy their gear, but the chances that a 10k gs doesn't know what they're doing is significantly high. The difference between a 10k and higher gs player not knowing what they're doing is that at least the higher gs palyer can contribute dps if they don't debuff.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I dont understand ppl still defy 10-13k gs scrubs, it may work in perfect eviornment, but honesty, perfect dont exist by definition, beside that, does anybody noticed that many of dps on heads comes from stacked variuos pf, terrors and others? Mostly on higher level, which technicly 10k scurb cant affort, cant even get lesser version of it. Can we just give a break to this pointless topic? Any1 defending that 10k raid can do it, is pathethicy stupid or naive.
Im not sorry for harsh words, stupidity must by named when u encounter one. And arguing over topics like this is stupid. They still think they r right... yes, u can technicly win raid even with 10x 10-13k player, but its not they who boost dmg, they dmg is almost unnoticable itself, what boost dmg is that one well debuffing 15k+ dc, that one well debuffing/buffing 18k+ gf (gf with 35k hp, or even much less, will have hard time with correctly tanking head, no suriability with knight challenge e.g) that one gwf holding perfect terror, and that one another dc holding gterror, that one cw with gpf, and another with npf, and rest of 16k+ players with r9+ weap enchants.
And yes, we all were low gs scrubs at some point, but we worked hard for our current gs, we get through all previous mods, and thanks to that at least some of us dont need to be carry, r not a burden. Once again, coz looks liek some ppl here have problem with understanding, ONE GAIN EXPERIENCE BY TIME, if he is smart, it goes faster, but u still need time for this, and unwillingly, in that time when u r getting experience u r getting also gs. If u have no progres in one of those u r worth nothing as player. And ppl going 3 days after they first toon hit 60 to tiamat r thsoe worth nothing scrubs. Needlessly to say, they r same use like those 6k players in pvp. And since some have rly big troubles with assimiliation of information i will say it cleary; ITS NO USE OF THEM. Period.
Pathetic.
(Sin)cerely,
Kain
Ok kain, I have run with you before in game so I know you can at least hold your own. When I get back from vacation I will pm you in game and you can run CN with myself and some of my friends, some of which have 10k gs and we can all use 10k gs chars. Alternatively, we can do epic dv. Either way, I can show you some full 10k gs groups with no weapon or armour enchantments who can complete content which I often see people complaining about not being completable with less then 12k gs. 10k gs does not equal scrub, it means a player has 10k gs. That 10k gs player could use hrimnir gear to boost their gearscore, but I would rather use blue rings then hrimnir. A higher gearscore does not necessarily mean a player has constructed their character properly, as I know a lot more people who have badly messed up their character who have high gearscore then those who have badly messed up their character with a low gearscore. Heck, I know a 22k gs CW with 8k crit and 4k power who swears that stacking crit is the most Important thing in building a good char.
NO second or third Timat; we just need either A) a min Gs of 15K or the same # of boons to get into IWD which should equate to a similar GS as a result. Xaansteel, if you are not at 20% to 24% armor pen, correct; not enough DPS even for the overpowered TR.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
For good reason. They don't deserve defending. They have the right to play content designed for their level. They do not have the right to be entitled for end game content when not even working for it. When I was level 60, I didn't start doing CN runs. I actually worked on my characters so that they were ready for the content. My first one had t1 pvp gear, others skipped t1 and went for t2 gauntlegrym gear as a simple and fairly effective way of gearing up.
I'll take a gwf and 15-20+k HP DC which shouldn't be unexpected out of 25 players. You obviously have more experience and are more likely to know your class better when you have been playing more and acquired more gs. People can buy their gear, but the chances that a 10k gs doesn't know what they're doing is significantly high. The difference between a 10k and higher gs player not knowing what they're doing is that at least the higher gs palyer can contribute dps if they don't debuff.
Anyone who believes you should overgear for a dungeon rather then doing it when your gear is appropriate for the content obviously has no interest in actually challenging themselves. When I first did CN, it was in a full group of people with less than 10k, it took us 6 hours, it was a challenge but it was rewarding. Its the same with anything else, challenge is intended and you have no right to complain because it isn't effortless. I have, to my satisfaction, finished with Tiamat. I had to do it as much as anyone else, fail as much as anyone else and I don't spend time complaining about 10k players interfering with my time schedule. This complaining is nothing but selfish complaining by people too snobbish to look beyond their noses and realise that there is more to the world then themselves and their selfish desires.
Comments
Oh that happens a lot. And what they say is true. Not enough DPS, not enough players who are able to communicate, not enough players who are able to follow simple instructions, not enough players who have half-decent gear.
Actually I think it has been quite illustrative. Now it has been demonstrated on the forums that, evidently, most people believe that if your GS is only 10k, that it means you are a bad, worthless, lazy idiot player who has problems finding the keyboard, let alone knowing how to play the game.
The low GS players are buffing YOU as well. That 10k DC using Divine Glow or that 10k TR using Wicked Reminder or that 10k GF using Tide of Iron is buffing YOUR damage as well. The "companion" analogy works both ways you know.
Then play FPS games. Seriously.
So now we have low GS = lazy? oh give me a break
I see you point clearly that Tiamat needs premades and higher gear parties just enjoy relaxed gaming, I agree that wtih you.
ps. tiamat is one encounter what I will not farm for boons, its cheaper buy boons materials... only premades will make tiamat playable for me. (nurf leadership then)
As being a (Protector) GF I have been working hard through all the Modules to get where I am now, Gear wise, Proper Enchantments and the right choices of Artifacts and Companions and I am **** proud of it and I have respect for all those players who have done the same (except those Invoked players). I have leveled up with great joy to 60, reached that level I was able to enter the grinding grounds in Sharandar and Dreadring which was quite different as what I have been doing thus far but was forced to do it to gather achievements GS wise to be able of entering IWD and honestly it felt pretty good when reaching those achievements and decked myself in Black Ice gear but wasn’t quite as what I expected and swapped back to Old school T2 gear which gave me better stats for myself and the group.
With this being said.
WoD came alive, and honestly I was shocked by the fact that the GS requirements where being lower that the one we needed to enter IWD while the mobs are harder to beat. Anyhow I started to grind again for draconic gear which was a slightly upgrade for my Old School gear. The Temple opened his gates so I could proceed to upgrade my gear even more which is a normal thing to achieve in every MMO. But what do I see????
Players with 10k gear score are entering the Temple, players who (after checking gear, enchants and companion) have skipped Sharandar, Dreadring and IWD, players with blue/green gear and 2 or 3 pieces of purple <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> from AH (for reaching 10k). Rank 3 / 4 Enchantments (mostly wrong ones too, but hey... who cares) and occasionally even with the pants/shirt you start the game with. I can prove it because I have dozens of screenshots of these hero’s but not allowed to post them here due name policy.
I have been a lot of times in groups who are able to beat Tiamat in 2 rounds and occasionally even in a single round (yes, I’m talking about those GS snobs) but have also experienced those low GS “Brute Force” zerg groups. Players who are not able to place a dent in Tiamat dps wise, and those who are saying that its different then those are being carried by a high level group. This happened to me yesterday... As always I go to Black/green Dragon head and stood there with a few "Uber" 10k players who didn’t do much other than standing on top of the Cleric while I and a GWF tried to kill these waves. It was pathetic to see this happening and finally I got relieved so I rushed to black head and engaged, fought for over a minute alone before this “Brutal Force” zerg arrived. Next thing what happened was kinda sad to see and humoristic at the same time, in the first second of the breath at least 60% of the players dropped like flies (caused by lacking proper gear and decent resists), nevertheless I kept going on and the group was able to get 1th head down to a whopping 80% in first round… that was the point I gave up because its wasted time and effort to proceed with this doomed fail (does this make me a GS Elitist?). Then the zone chat comes alive, nothing else than talks about those ****ing Elitists who left a on forehand doomed Tiamat run while they are the cause of these fails by themselfes
Grouping with players in the 13/17k range is much more desired because they are able to produce enough DPS to get Tiamat down within time.
What I see happen is that when these 10k players reaching the Temple ground is that they checking for high GS players and follow them when they entering the Temple in the hope to get a free and easy ride to obtain gear they do not deserve, I know it because I have tricked quite a few of these parasites into entering with a fake run to the door, and yes.. If that makes me a Snob or an Elitist then so be it. Personally I do not participate much anymore in Tiamat runs due I refuse to let them ruin my fun in this Game and help those instead with getting them in the T2 gear they need, for those players I have respect and not for those parasites who think they get easy chances on the new gear they don’t deserve. Let me being an Elitist but these are the **** facts and honestly I do not know what kind of weed the developers have been smoking by creating a new mod this way.
The only reasonable thing what they can do is give the players the possibility to form their own groups (even a complete raid force or change settings to the GS requirements which is desired, as we had with IWD) just to get rid of these parasites so they returning where they belong (Sharandar and Dreadring) and come back when they are capable to make a difference.
In the meantime this Elitist is helping those who deserve to be helped without getting the feeling that I am a high GS companion for them. And those who defend those parasites I say, screw you and start working on your gear.
Developers made a big mistake with bringing WoD alive with these requirements
I should have read this thread but I didn't since there are so many like this..but this caught my attention. It still seems to me that people who have alts and can be capable in difficult content with low GS take insult to this GS/Tiamat subject. Does low low GS always identify a bad/no skill player? No. We got that. Does it identify that you may have a bad/no skill player if he/she is rockin' 10k, imho, yea...it does. When I go into Tiamat and I see a bunch of folks runnin' around with their companions in tow...I kind of know how it's gonna be. So I inspect a few and what do I find? The GS I was expecting to see.
It also seems as though the 10k people are discussed at max potential, what their debuffs/buffs can do, blah, blah, blah. What's the point, there are clearly more folks at a couple of K more gearscore that run around in there with no idea what to do and fail. The meter for success and failure for that place should be set on what we can expect from players in general and what level of error their gear can provide. A 15-16k player has more potential to provide something to the cause than a 10k player who has nearly nothing besides skill to offer. I guess there are many diffrenet ways to word what I'm sayin but simply - 10k folks have no room for error.
merry christmas
Yes, low gs is lazy. Why are you even defending 10k gs so hard? You honestly don't even need to try to achieve 10k gs. You're pretty much handed it when reaching level 60. The game has released so much content that you are obviously meant to do. Why should everyone carry their <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> just because they can't be bothered to do ANY of it. The min requirement for epic dread vault is 8.3k gs, if you enter with that which some people do, you deserve to get your <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> kicked. You are never entitled to be carried if you don't want to even put in basic effort for your character. If you enter the raid with 10k gs, then you're 1 of three things
1) Ill-informed and need to learn that you don't get to skip most of the game content to reach end game
2) A self entitled ******bag who think's they're so special and don't care for being a burden on the team
3) Lazy, though can be classed as #2
10k gs is beta gear. If you are skilled you can easily and quickly get better than that. Otherwise yes, you are lazy and/or selfish. And no, no-one else is required to hold your hand.
A similar analogy would be a soldier turning up for a war wasted and with his armour back to front. He could be a skilled soldier, but lets be honest. He's letting the side down. Or having an important test but not studying. You may be smart, but you're not preparing yourself properly. At least in that case you're only letting yourself down not the
If you ask for high gs only, yes you're a snob. Defending 10k gs makes you just as bad as those that are true snobs and ask for 17k+ gs in the opposite direction.
You obviously need to know how to work in a group, so you should be doing previous grouped content actually designed for your level. Tiamat was not designed for 10k gs and neither should it have been. People should not care about themselves more than actually getting themselves prepared. There's no promise a high gs didn't buy their gear or is skilled, but at least he has some gear to at least compensate for it a little. If you have a low gs, you clearly have little experience in your character and are unlikely to know how to play your class well. It's theoretically possible, but unlikely for the majority and you still don't have the gear to utilise it. I honestly don't even know why this needs to be discussed.
If I can reach 15-16k gs on characters I don't focus on, you can (which you do) reach last modules requirements of 13k gs without an issue. If you don't you're entitled and lazy. There's no other explanation. If you ask for 17k+ gsers only you're also entitled. If you ask for 13-14k as a minimum, then you're just expecting a basic requirement that comes from just playing the game at a decent pace. Content need to be hard and harder so that we keep having challenging stuff to do and as such, if you're injecting more gs into the game, those requirements need to be lifted too.
To say it's snobbery is like saying the fact their are any gs or level requirements is snobbery. History has shown there are a lot of dungeons that don't reflect the true required minimum gs needed. Tiamat is no different. Plus why should you skip 3/4 whole modules AND the beta level 60 stuff.
Even I don't deny that most the people that run 10kgs in tiamat should run some other content first. It's not hard to gear up, and it's even easier now in mod5. The only thing I've been defending is the philosophy of setting the min requirement to get in at a level that could technically be done but brutally difficult to do. I'm still convinced that 10kgs players if they played a perfect game on voice chat with a perfect composition could get it done. That however is not your average match, and even with that setup I'd expect the 10kgs team to lose 9 out of 10 times. But that's also my opinion on where min requirements should be.
It'd be nice to try out properly with an experienced group just to see how possible it is even if it doesn't say that your pug group could.. It's a shame that you can't form your own raids to find out though. Although I suppose if you really wanted to, one could just do it on preview where noone plays it anyway. People are more willing on live though.
I second to this post.
If there is a way to get a raidgroup together only filled with these "paper" Hero's and they succeed then they have earned my respect, but this wont happen due simple fact's.
Missing required gear, missing proper enchantments, missing the much needed DR and Reflect chances and is doesn't matter if they are skilled or not they simply fail at Tiamat if they don't get carried bij high GS players.
I believe someone challanged Cryptic to do the same, form a 25 raidgroup (only developers and such), with the gear of a 10.5k GS player, with simple weapons, enchants and so on just to see if their views are correct...
Yes, 10k players help debuffing and all, but a 18k GS players does it better. And since it's a pure DPS race that my little sis can run, you don't even need smart players, just the ones that have high numbers in their Character Sheet.
Again: ***** at PWE, players are doing what is needed to get what they want.
I could just as well tell you to go play a single player game. That doesn't move the argument nor does it prove any point.
Lazy probably was not the right word to use. Low GS is a good indication of a lack of investment of time and effort into the game.
Maths and testing has shown that an unbuffed 10k GS player is right on the edge of being able to deliver an "average" amount of DPS for the Tiamat fight (where "average" is defined as total Tiamat HP divided by 25 players). And we all know buffs and debuffs will significantly increase this amount to a far higher value. But math and actual empirical evidence won't convince any of the GS snobs around here anymore that anyone less than 13k is deemed worthy of admission. They will just come up with some other subjective standard to support their bias.
For MOST of the significant buffs, this is not true. Divine Glow, Tide of Iron, Smolder, Battle Fury, Wicked Reminder - all are buffs that are independent of the player's GS.
Which would you rather have - a 10k High Prophet Righteous DC or an 18k Avatar of War Destroyer GWF? Choose wisely.
So the person who bought his GS off of the AH has made a significant investment of time and effort to the game, then? Oh give me a break.
Organizing 25 people at the cleric phase is not easy, that phase is going to last longer (time lost)
People die (time lost)
dragon head to dragon head (time lost)
so when is theoretically possible to do things with 10k people it will never happen in reality, never.
gear score becomes the only indicator of how the instance is more likely going to end.
it's like when you go out to find a gal, you see the first one but she is not of your likes, turn around a try again even tho that girl could have been the more entertaining one you ever met.
tl;dr no one forces me to play with undergeared people so i will do all the possible to change instance when this happens. For the note like no one forces me to play with those, no one forced them to skip 90% of the contents.
They do their choices i do mine.
Tiamat is tough for even well-built low GS characters. I have three toons <13k GS and I'm not taking any of them in there - although the 12k DC in High Prophet might make a go of it actually. It's simple common sense.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Only reason i dont take my alts there is cause i cant afford to upgrade those items...
So its basically the power stat that matters (and armour penetration), but even that can be helped, a lowly DC with High Prophet can essentially give 24 others 5000 extra power when zerging a dragon. I once took my 12k ranger into Tiamat, it was dishing out those +100k criticals more than enough to make the required dps needed from each.
Like somebody else here mentioned, I don't know what the problem is, Tiamat is not that hard, I have had an over 90% success rate with Tiamat and am now basically done with my main, the biggest cause of failure so far has been that cleric bug where the dragon heads don't show. Perhaps I have just been lucky with all the groups I ended up with, but I think this snobbery is much of a muchness, with zerg runs it should be doable most of the time.
Being squishy is indeed a problem, I've seen people dying from a usual head attack, that cleaves in front of it for ~10-15k damage on geared characters. Yes, true PvE'ers with zero defense stats drop like flies attacking heads in melee.
As for those classes that state that through buffing/debuffing they help others.. great, but only to a point; and if you need several rezzes per instance, then you are significantly lowering DPS.
Sure, when I was a new player, I was smart enough to not keep going into endgame content that I was undergeared/undertrained for. I was smart enough to look for a reputable guild, forum guides, youtube videos for help.
However, not every new player is able to think like that. They see that Tiamat is the shiny new thing and they will participate. You can't really blame them because they can rationalize that they are over the GS requirement. (note that there is a good counter argument to this that new players could be a little selfish and expect higher geared players to carry them)
The point is: the big endgame content shouldn't be accessible by a fresh new player, or at least create an "epic" version that requires 15-16k GS.
Gear score caps for Timat are a fantastic idea. But also public discussion of strategy is crucial, that people don't communicate enough is a problem.
For good reason. They don't deserve defending. They have the right to play content designed for their level. They do not have the right to be entitled for end game content when not even working for it. When I was level 60, I didn't start doing CN runs. I actually worked on my characters so that they were ready for the content. My first one had t1 pvp gear, others skipped t1 and went for t2 gauntlegrym gear as a simple and fairly effective way of gearing up.
I'll take a gwf and 15-20+k HP DC which shouldn't be unexpected out of 25 players. You obviously have more experience and are more likely to know your class better when you have been playing more and acquired more gs. People can buy their gear, but the chances that a 10k gs doesn't know what they're doing is significantly high. The difference between a 10k and higher gs player not knowing what they're doing is that at least the higher gs palyer can contribute dps if they don't debuff.
Ok kain, I have run with you before in game so I know you can at least hold your own. When I get back from vacation I will pm you in game and you can run CN with myself and some of my friends, some of which have 10k gs and we can all use 10k gs chars. Alternatively, we can do epic dv. Either way, I can show you some full 10k gs groups with no weapon or armour enchantments who can complete content which I often see people complaining about not being completable with less then 12k gs. 10k gs does not equal scrub, it means a player has 10k gs. That 10k gs player could use hrimnir gear to boost their gearscore, but I would rather use blue rings then hrimnir. A higher gearscore does not necessarily mean a player has constructed their character properly, as I know a lot more people who have badly messed up their character who have high gearscore then those who have badly messed up their character with a low gearscore. Heck, I know a 22k gs CW with 8k crit and 4k power who swears that stacking crit is the most Important thing in building a good char.
Anyone who believes you should overgear for a dungeon rather then doing it when your gear is appropriate for the content obviously has no interest in actually challenging themselves. When I first did CN, it was in a full group of people with less than 10k, it took us 6 hours, it was a challenge but it was rewarding. Its the same with anything else, challenge is intended and you have no right to complain because it isn't effortless. I have, to my satisfaction, finished with Tiamat. I had to do it as much as anyone else, fail as much as anyone else and I don't spend time complaining about 10k players interfering with my time schedule. This complaining is nothing but selfish complaining by people too snobbish to look beyond their noses and realise that there is more to the world then themselves and their selfish desires.