Sorry for my late reply, I don't get on as much as I used to.
Damnacious, KV and ITF can't be nerfed, they are the reason why the gf has a place in pve now, we actually have some use. It is a boring playstyle, having to slot both of them but the gf needed better buff abilities and I'm sure with some clever ideas there could be a way for the gf to slot these but still be able to fight and have fun other than being just a wall that buffs the team. But either way, if they get nerfed we will not be wanted for pve again.
Also mark shouldn't be changed. I agree with hypervoreian, this is a dps game in both pve and pvp. We need dps and since we already have basically the lowest we need this mark to help us. It might not be crazy useful in pve but it's very useful in pvp and a simple change for pve could maybe be to make it like threatening rush where it is a small area mark ? It would be far from OP but would give the gf a little extra dps and a decent working tab ability.
We have some good ideas in this thread and it could make the gf class much better and more fun to play but atm we rely on our buff powers or we have no place in pve since it's 95% based around just dps and we guardians seem to be using cardboard swords ^^
Crixus, perhaps you could fully read what I proposed? Everything you want improved I have already proposed and those proposals are exactly what you are now contesting.
Seems rather odd to be having a discussion with fellow players about how my proposed changes are bad, how I am somehow bad for proposing them and how players would prefer something different, when their desires are what i've already proposed!
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
1)Animations are too slow.
Villain's menace is so slow that if you have steel defence slotted you don't get 5 secs of immunity ,but 3,5.That's **** right we are speaking about 1-1,5 sec animation.
Flourish is again too slow.
2)GWrath is not affected by recovery.That makes it obsolete.15secs for a charge fill??? Really?
So in order to have a full encounter ready you have to wait 45 secs?45 secs in damage/dps is outDPSed by far by cleave...
And by long run.
3)Certain spells /powers go through block.Winter wolfs breath for example
4)Terrifying Impact has a very narrow cone /range of affect AoE
5)All GF self healings are relics from beta and 9200k gs derelict dungeons and need rework.
Gf was the first class designed and his heals are the same since beta while PVE /PVP enemies have gone far too ahead in danger/heals.
Take Measure,Grit Shielded resurgence ,al need a significant buff.
6)Wrathfull warrior feat does not benefit from temp hit points ,as provided by sets,(ex Purified ring/amulet set).
Wrathfull warrior should activated more .it's ICD is so looooooooonnnnngggggggg.it rarely is activated every 3-4 mins.really????
7)tactical superiority for Conqs is lucking.5% more damage.After you invest 5 points in a t4 feat?
Every T4 feat for cws for example adds 20% more damage.And we have 5? 5???? Five??????
if the devs don't want more damage then they should add 1/2/3/4/5 % more critical chance.
8)The capstone for Conq in order to be activated demands 5 hits.It is too many when fighting bosses.Cause you block or avoid.Ex fighting dragons in Hes,if i don't deliberately stand in fron of breath attack,i never go beyond2-3 stacks.
****.Gosh.
Nice suggestion you see GF as i see .
GF need total rework cuz her skills heroic feats and feats our outdated and still in beta stadium .
Hint turn your suggestion to the req format .
Quite interesting to see how many of you didn't actually bother to fully read what I wrote and proposed.
As stated now multiple times, although there is a reduction in the capabilities of both KV and ItF, those capabilities have simply been redistributed to the Tab function and BUFFED.
At the end of the day, a GF using Tab (which, I believe, all GFs should be), KV and ItF will have EXACTLY the same capabilities as they do now. Not less, but more. Additionally, in my proposed changes, if you slot EM then a GF should receive even greater benefits than they do now.
The only reason I have suggested a change to the Tab function is purely because of a desire and request by some GFs to increase the functionality of our Tab.
What I think you all must remember is that the position of Class Advocate does not mean that my opinion is given any more weight than anyone else's. However, I fully have the right to have an opinion about any and all classes, express that opinion and have it considered. Exactly the same as you. Therefore, making statements that make reference to my 'fitness' to be the Class Advocate purely because my opinion may differ from yours has no relevance and place in this thread.
As stated before, if you bothered to read it, my role as Class Advocate is purely to collect your feedback, collate it and provide a synopsis of it in a weekly report to the Development Team. Again, as stated before, if at any time you have questions or concerns about my 'fitness' to act as the GF Class Advocate, please feel free to send either Akromatik or GentlemanCrush a private message and discuss it with them.
Furthermore, if you really expect one person to be able to agree to the diverse perspectives and opinions of everyone then you really aren't thinking logically or reasonably. There will always be someone that is not satisfied.
I understand if you are upset but.
Pls consider only a few geared good GF left in community, & we are the last hope of GF population what is continuously decreasing .
The question is why GF population is dropped after mod 4 ?
Cuz they nerfed patch after patch GF and buffed patch after patch HR CW GWF SW.
Now after mod 5 TR & DC Total rework they will put us agan on the dark middle age .
Cuz any one can be a king of DPS and any one can survive the add swarm(via THE OP LS) only GF cannot do this .
Cuz GF feats and heroic feats are still in beta stadium .
Minor buffs wont help the GF population .
They need rework to make this class agan popular .(as it was in beta)
GF armor and weapons are the cheapest in the market ask your self why?
Cuz any one know this is GF is the ugly duck in NW.
PS: 03/16/2013 I play GF from until now .
So i know GF was only 1 time OP, but after stalwart nerf Noah dont wated us in her ark.
Any way Chris hates(to play or whatever) GF ( and any warrior class) no wonder when ever i saw him play he chose only those 3 classes ( HR TR CW ).
Well lets say (i know how this will work) "I am Chris" i reading your suggestions . Suggestion:BLALALALALALALALALAL Nerf KV Nerf ITFBLALALBLALBABABLABLA
-Programmers : what was the weekly req from GFs
-Chris say : NERF to KV and ITF
-Programmers :"oo nice we can do this" .
damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
edited October 2014
Fair enough. I know and understand most of what you mean, however I seriously doubt GFs will get a complete rework. Mod4 was designed to go as far as they wanted to it seems.
You've made some good points and i'll be doing my best to ensure they get placed in this week's report too.
Crixus, perhaps you could fully read what I proposed? Everything you want improved I have already proposed and those proposals are exactly what you are now contesting.
Seems rather odd to be having a discussion with fellow players about how my proposed changes are bad, how I am somehow bad for proposing them and how players would prefer something different, when their desires are what i've already proposed!
I did read what you said bro, I'm sorry if I might have missed something but I have read many ideas to change the Tab mark but my idea was just a little improvement. And I think we all agree that gf dps is bad, I was just saying it again because that is one of the main issues in my opinion.
And I don't think your proposed changed are bad, just changing tab and making ITF and KV weaker as i think that would greatly impact the class in a negative way for pve. I just like our tab the way it is now, if it was changed to KV or something then pvp would be worse off right away. I just think it needs a buff.
Crixus - PVP GF
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
I did read what you said bro, I'm sorry if I might have missed something but I have read many ideas to change the Tab mark but my idea was just a little improvement. And I think we all agree that gf dps is bad, I was just saying it again because that is one of the main issues in my opinion.
And I don't think your proposed changed are bad, just changing tab and making ITF and KV weaker as i think that would greatly impact the class in a negative way for pve. I just like our tab the way it is now, if it was changed to KV or something then pvp would be worse off right away. I just think it needs a buff.
You're all good buddy. No need to apologise.
I looked at it this way.. If KV and ItF are reduced and that is then added to Tab then nothing is actually lost. However, it does provide some additional options for the GF, including increasing the DPS and DR of GFs that don't want to use KV and / or ItF. The durations aren't long as standard, yet when slotted with EM it is quite reasonable. In PVE, if you were to use Tab once ever 6 seconds as a minimum then you would constantly have the full benefits of KV and ItF as they are now.
I have no problems at all with the way Tab functions at present in PVE, yet I can certainly understand the desire to increase it's capability in PVP. My proposed changes would mean an increase in general (not just with KV/ItF/Tab/EM) damage of something like 15% in some cases with +3% increased Crit. In PVP it really does seem that we lack a bit of damage that would allow us to actually be reasonably competitive.
I thought the introduction of an temporary AoE Mark with the Tab function to go with the current single target Mark would work well, especially as it would allow greater opportunity for the GF to keep Marks up on mobs and, in particular, present the opportunity to AoE Mark without using TR or ET. If you combined the Tab AoE Mark with ET then it would work well at holding HATE/aggro.
I just saw it as a good way to try and satisfy a lot of people's needs without making the GF too overpowered or detracting from the usefulness of Powers such as KV and ItF in essence.
The main thing I tried to consider and ensure was that my proposed changes didn't actually 'nerf' any of our current capabilities but offer an increase, as I don't want our capabilities in either PVP or PVE to be lessened in any way.
Anyway, thanks for your response and feedback buddy. I appreciate it!
maybe test this and see how it fares on actually gameplay
knight's valor: make it so we can intercept more damage-perhaps 60%- but have a cool down of 5 seconds to make it count, real quick animation please.also tone down the blue color thing as many players seem to experience issues
SoS: It was overnerfed to a point unneeded.damage output should be increased significantly.it's easy to avoid and detect
buff conqueror capstone to provide the same bonus-if not more-with less stacks(i play protecor but i believe it is only fair)
i like the idea of small aoe mark but here is my thought on it: keep it evxactly the same but do the following:
capstones
protector:hard-marked target deals another -5% dmg to your allies
congueror: damage taken is increased by 5% for marked target
tactician: ap generation when striking the target increased by 3%
mark causes the hard marked target to attack the player after 1-2 seconds,bosses are immune to this effect,perhaps golems and other adds with control immunity as well to keep some challenge in maintaining threat
or try this: marked target deals no damage for 2.5 seconds to other players but you, internal cooldown 10 seconds.mark becomes blue on tooltip when extra skill is out of cooldown.this mark on players should be blue as well to notify everyone.perhaps add an area of effect to this skill to affect up to 3 targets that stand close to each other
increase deflection depending on AC as well,like 1% extra deflection per 5 ranks of AC above 10. it is both fair and realistic i believe
increase defence cap by 500 at least or make sets provide more relevant bonuses than huge defence
I looked at it this way.. If KV and ItF are reduced and that is then added to Tab then nothing is actually lost. However, it does provide some additional options for the GF, including increasing the DPS and DR of GFs that don't want to use KV and / or ItF. The durations aren't long as standard, yet when slotted with EM it is quite reasonable. In PVE, if you were to use Tab once ever 6 seconds as a minimum then you would constantly have the full benefits of KV and ItF as they are now.
I have no problems at all with the way Tab functions at present in PVE, yet I can certainly understand the desire to increase it's capability in PVP. My proposed changes would mean an increase in general (not just with KV/ItF/Tab/EM) damage of something like 15% in some cases with +3% increased Crit. In PVP it really does seem that we lack a bit of damage that would allow us to actually be reasonably competitive.
I thought the introduction of an temporary AoE Mark with the Tab function to go with the current single target Mark would work well, especially as it would allow greater opportunity for the GF to keep Marks up on mobs and, in particular, present the opportunity to AoE Mark without using TR or ET. If you combined the Tab AoE Mark with ET then it would work well at holding HATE/aggro.
I just saw it as a good way to try and satisfy a lot of people's needs without making the GF too overpowered or detracting from the usefulness of Powers such as KV and ItF in essence.
The main thing I tried to consider and ensure was that my proposed changes didn't actually 'nerf' any of our current capabilities but offer an increase, as I don't want our capabilities in either PVP or PVE to be lessened in any way.
Anyway, thanks for your response and feedback buddy. I appreciate it!
I Wouldnt actually mind ITF on tab, it would have good use in pvp but still the dmg loss from our mark would bother me In pve having one of them on tab would be fine but there is a big difference between pve and pvp and thats where I think the issue is. Its a shame the tab wasnt a slot where you could choose something to drag in lol.
But in my opinion I think just buffing tab in some ways now would be the best option, an aoe mark effect is a good idea.
Well if we all had your attitude snappa then nothing would ever change.
XD108x, I have been supplying feedback and suggestions to the GF class since release. The reason for my "negative" comment is because I have had dozens of my feedback/ suggestion posts deleted by mods of these forums.
GF facts, prior to mod 5
1) GF DPS sucks for all 3 feat trees
2) With over (20k GS) 5500 Defense and 2500 deflection I can still get "one shotted" by bosses (ELoL and ESoT (epic)) if I don't time my guard correctly or have lag. Sometimes the animation shows I am guarded and I still get one shotted.
3) Many of our at-wills, encounters and dailies need to be updated to compete with other classes.
4) Prior to Mod 4 being released we had a huge bug listing and the majority of those bugs are still NOT fixed.
5) We receive NERFS almost every patch while other classes are being buffed. The nerf to SoS was completely uncalled for as it was the only reason GF's would spec protector. Now that tree is dead.
Suggestions
1) Villain's Menace activation needs to be instant!
2) Cleave should hit every target in the 5' cylinder that is in front of you. I believe it only hits a maximum of 5 targets
3) Merge Cleave and Crushing Surge. Even with the buff to crushing surge nobody is using it.
4) Enforced threat needs to enforce more threat. Buff it. Also, give us some dmg reduction after we activate Enforced Threat. We need more damage reduction in order to survive.
5) Tide of Iron is a joke. Merge it with threatening rush.
6) Shield Talent is a joke. How about "Increases your Guard Meter and Deflection by 5% per rank"
7) Increase the damage of Aggravating Strike. We need more dps to generate threat to obtain aggro.
8) Terrifying Impact needs to be widened and activated instantly. Currently, by the time TI goes off the mobs are already out of the cylinder and you miss. Speed up the animation AND increase the width of the cylinder to 8'
9) Anvil of Doom needs to be able to hit multiple mobs in a small area. Make it an AOE effect which does even more damage to mobs below 40% health.
10) Frontline Surge should hit all mobs within 30' 10' cylinder. I believe it's only 5.
11) Supremacy of Steel should also give a lifesteal capability. If pc's and npc's are dumb enough to hit you with SoS activated then give us some health back. I won't even complain about the lack of AP generation due to the previous nerf.
12) Iron Warrior needs to give back more temporary hit points. Try it on the boss in ESoT or the Scorpions in ELoL. It's laughable at how little it gives back.
13) I love Knight's Valor but I really wish that I ate less dmg from my party. There needs to be a way to reduce the damage we receive when the idiots in our group decide to stand in the red...and yes, I am evil..I will turn off KV and watch them die.
14) Enduring Warrior, really? None of us GF's do enough damage to kill a mob much less give us a stupid fn 1% health back. We are lucky if we finish 6th in dps in a 5 man team. Scrap it and change it to "When an enemy crits you, you regain temporary hit points equal to 1% of your max hit points". We do not kill mobs in PvE. Even the dumbest Developer knows this is useless.
15) Shielded Resurgence... Buff it to 3/6/9 %
16) Distracting Shield...Buff it to 3/6/9/12/15 %....
17) Powerful Attack...Buff it to 4/8/12/16/20 %
18) Grit needs buffed...to 3/6/9%
19) Pin Down...seriously is trash...buff it to .3/.6/.9 seconds. It's not like we do enough damage anyhow to kill something that is proned.
20) Weapon Mastery crit needs to be buffed...to 3/6/9%
21) Ubiquitous Shield needs to be reworked to "Reduce the combat advantage against you by 5/10/15/20/25% as well as Reduce the dmg taken by you 2/4/6/8/10%
22) Reckless Attacker needs buffed ...increase damage by 10% and Critical Chance by 5%
23) Armor of Bahamut needs buffed...when stamina is below 30%, you take 5/10/15/20/25% less damage from all sources
24) Crushing Pin needs to be buffed to 5 seconds
25) Daunting Challenge needs to be changed to "marked targets now deal 3/6/9/12/15% less damage to everyone in your party (INCLUDING THE GF)
26) Inspiring Leader should be buffed to 2/4/6/8/10%
HAMSTER, level 60 GF, "Bloodthirsty" since Mod 2 Anarchist, level 60 CW
Arsenic, level 60 TR Pluck Yew, level 60 HR
Therapissed, level 60 DC
"2) With over (20k GS) 5500 Defense and 2500 deflection I can still get "one shotted" by bosses (ELoL and ESoT (epic)) if I don't time my guard correctly or have lag. Sometimes the animation shows I am guarded and I still get one shotted. "
This was the reason for my complaint about Soulforge not working. IMO if they fixed soulforge to not randomly not work this wouldn't even be a defensible issue.
At the moment to die you have to have
1) soul forge not work or have proc'd it within in the last 2 minutes
2) position badly/lag
3) not have a guard up or have been wittled down before massive strike.
And even when 1 to 3 occur you have the knowledge that usually on the next fight you can cause 1 to 3 not to occur... As it is most of the time soulforge does work and you just need to be unlucky with numbers, positioning, and *soulforge*.
Also, anyone not using soulforge while intending to main tank in content that hits as hard as eSoT or eLoL is basically making an indefensible decision. If they know they can be one shotted why would they not soulforge? Back in mod 3 it was "good/uber players don't need it", but the very fact that multiple people write out (2) basically tells us.... mod 3 is no more...
i will put my suggestions in formal form(if that matters).
Also i want to clarify the advantages of current mark:
Mark as it is now: -20% DR plus CA (+15% damage).
Anyone who wants to "rework" "reinvent" "reexamine" "reevaluate" "rethink" the tab MArk functionality ,should at least provides us the current advantages MArk gives to GFs(which to me are decent)
Now to suggestions:
1.Animations are too slow:Both in pve/pvp,especially on mod4 pve thr GF can be interrupted during his animations.
Enforced Threat is slow.
Villain's Menace is slow.
Flourish is slow.
Mark tab is slow .
Knee Breaker is slow.
crushing surge is so slow that actually is lower dps than tooltip.cause it take more than 1 sec to do 1 hit.
2.Griffon's Wrath is not affected by recovery.
In order to have a full charge you have to wait 45 secs.The total damage in 45 secs is inferrior to cleave....Wicked reminder and the push encounter of Tr have significantly shorter cooldawns with same charges(3).Either make GW affected by recovery or shorten the time charges.
3.Certain spells go through block.
Winter wolfbreath for example.
4.Terrifying Impact daily.
It has a very narrow cone and a long casting animation.Both need rework.
5.Gf self healings are obsolete for mod3/4/5 content.
Too small heal buffs.
Grit,Shielded resurgence ,take measure all are around 3-5% hp.With 30-50 secs cooldawn.Frankly this is ridicoulous small for current pve adds and bosses.
6.Wrathfull warrior feat from Conq tree ,needs a rework.it is only activated from take measure.Even then it lasts for 2 secs.2 secs one cleave.It needs a buff in time duration and it has to be proced more often.
7.Tactical superiority is extremely lucking for Gfs.5 points into a tier 4 feat in order to get +5% more damage.other classes in t4 have feats that give them +20% more damage or significunt bonuses in deflection/dps/control.tactical superiority is a relic from the past.
A good idea is to ad more damage.Or more crit.+5% more crit will be balanced for me in 5/5. (1/2/3/4/5%)
8.Crescendo can be interrupted.
yet the tooltip clearly stays that you are immune to cc while casting.crescendo can be interrupted or the nemy can be dodged AFTER you started hitting him.LMAO.
9.Steel Defence.Cause animations are so slow and steel defence is activated at the beggining of animations,its usability is decreased.Less time immune really.So it needs a duration increase.
10.Swordmaster paragon tree lacks an aoe attack.Isn't swordmaster the dps path?IV has the FS.SM has none!!Only Terrifying Impact.And this has a narrow cone and extremely slow animation.
WMS is so slow and so soft hitting that is a joke.
i will put my suggestions in formal form(if that matters).
Also i want to clarify the advantages of current mark:
Mark as it is now: -20% DR plus CA (+15% damage).
Mark also debuffs monster damage 10% if you get daunting challenge in the tactician tree.
I think it's also prudent to keep in mind that increasing GF damage has the possibility of making the GWF class obsolete. Some of us don't realize that GF is still the most powerful mod 4 PVE class-even after the nerfs. Remember GWF has no group buffs and some groups are already taking us over GWFs. If our damage was raised to close to GWF level it would be disastrous for that class.
I noticed someone earlier that said tide of iron is worthless...........it debuffs damage resistance and also stacks with mark debuff and if you have a plague fire too, things will die a lot faster to say the least. I use it every fight. You also restore stamina and you'll never run out if you use it this way. Tide with the KV+ITF combo (+50% damage and -50% damage taken PLUS 15% action point gain even WITHOUT the tactician capstone) affects groups more than any other class.
Venril Sathir- CW
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
Mark also debuffs monster damage 10% if you get daunting challenge in the tactician tree.
I think it's also prudent to keep in mind that increasing GF damage has the possibility of making the GWF class obsolete. Some of us don't realize that GF is still the most powerful mod 4 PVE class-even after the nerfs. Remember GWF has no group buffs and some groups are already taking us over GWFs. If our damage was raised to close to GWF level it would be disastrous for that class.
I noticed someone earlier that said tide of iron is worthless...........it debuffs damage resistance and also stacks with mark debuff and if you have a plague fire too, things will die a lot faster to say the least. I use it every fight. You also restore stamina and you'll never run out if you use it this way. Tide with the KV+ITF combo (+50% damage and -50% damage taken PLUS 15% action point gain even WITHOUT the tactician capstone) affects groups more than any other class.
LOL MY DPS as GWF is x5 times bigger then my conq GF .
You dont know nothing about this game also go cry in gwf thread.(**** GWF)
I can even beat 20k dps oriented CWs .
Conq is not even close to any one.
At the end of the day, a GF using Tab (which, I believe, all GFs should be), KV and ItF will have EXACTLY the same capabilities as they do now. Not less, but more. Additionally, in my proposed changes, if you slot EM then a GF should receive even greater benefits than they do now.
The only reason I have suggested a change to the Tab function is purely because of a desire and request by some GFs to increase the functionality of our Tab.
I want to see some day GF mechanics implemented like CW Spell Mastery has.
You put 4th skill on tab and such ability will have mixed effect with existing marking (aggro+debuff). Call it Guardian Mastery for a moment.
Let see how it could work
Mastery KV has object-specifc effect with CD, where you intercept 70-90% of damage from that master marked mob.
Mastery ItF - you debuff mob damage and give +20% buff to anyone (except you) who attacks him in this time
Rest of skills: increase aggro from damage you produce or make them more risk-vs-reward (or almost suicidal).
Just examples:
Mastery Knight Challenge - you deal double damage to each other and you deal another 50-100% damage to each other depending on threat.
Master Lunging Strike - you deal 50% more damage but attacked mobs attack you back with double damage in 5-8 few seconds.
Another things non related to tab skill management, just for your dossier:
- enduring warrior feat is not so useful and unrealistic. gf don't kill mobs per second like CW/SW, it needs be reworked.
- crushing surge animation is too slow, there is a delay when you switch between at-will and encounters. cleave has same issue. I play all other classes to some degree, transition between at-wills and encounters is smooth.
- after stopping at will attacks in guarded mode your character continues to do same attack pattern in next few seconds, should stopped by default once guard is down.
- no matter how good encounters are, at-will damage (or weapon damage) is far behind compared to other classes.
Sorry for not explaining.
Example:
GWF does 1,000,000 damage
CW does 1,000,000 damage
CW does 1,000,000 damage
SW does 1,000,000 damage
HR does 1,000,000 damage group does 5,000,000 damage
replace GWF with GF
GF does 100,000 damage
CW does 1,500,000 damage
CW does 1,500,000 damage
SW does 1,500,000 damage
HR does 1,500,000 damage. group does 6,100,000 damage
My GF does Into The Fray+KV (yours does too, i saw it in your screenshot)
I have 50% DR(you have 60%) so Into The Fray alone boosts party damage 75% of that which=37.5% damage boost for everyone in the party.
Knights valor adds 20% DR which gives 15% more damage boost for 52.5%
I have draconic set which gives 5% DR for another 3.75% to damage boost for 56.25%
Also I am tactician spec which gives a straight 5% damage boost to into the fray for 61.25% damage boost
Into the fray increases action point gain 15%, so dailies come faster for extra damage.
Again, I am tacticiam spec where capstone gives action points every time I am hit for even faster dailies for extra damage.
This does not count plaguefire, mark, and tide of iron debuffs.
GF also with KV intercepts half (50%)of all party damage with KV so:
CW instead of taking 400,000 damage will only take 200,000 damage
CW instead of taking 400,000 damage will only take 200,000 damage
SW instead of taking 400,000 damage will only take 200,000 damage
HE instead of taking 400,000 damage will only take 200,000 damage
If GF takes tactician feat daunting challenge group takes 60% less damage when GF uses Enforced Threat or marks monsters.
DC also increase group DPS and reduces incoming damage, i can explain that also but not in a GF thread
Guildies take my GF over any 21k GS GWF every time. They talk about how much faster and smoother dungeons are with GF in the group. Within the 1st 5 minutes after I log onto my GF, I am invited to a group. If I feel like it, I can even join most queues and get into a PUG within seconds.I only have 50k hps, but I get one shotted in eLOL or eSOT maybe once a month. And I do probably 10 dungeons a day.
I was in a PUG on my DC the 1st week of MOD 4. Group wiped 3 times at Syndryth in TOS. The GF was not using Into The Fray and Knights valor. I asked her to use them and she did. Syndryth died quick and easy, and nobody even got low on health.
Same group. 2 different spells.
This is why I say GF is the most powerful PVE class in Mod 4.
Sorry but your guild know nothing about this game .
Example:
GWF does 8,000,000 damage
CW does 8,000,000 damage
CW does 8,000,000 damage
SW does 8,000,000 damage
HR does 4,000,000 damage
And gf do 100k any way the GF will just slow down the pt , nm but before y post somthing stupid agan watch the vid agan cuz 8 MIN w/o GF.
Tos ? really i can solo Tos with my CW and GWF.
Gf is only shines in bad pugs.
Agan i ask y stop posting here if y cant understand the problem of GFs then i suggest to go somwhere else trolling .
CWs like you say alway your char is underpowered and ask for buff s and we all know :
NW PVE dungs req only 1CW to finish it. There is no need for any PT.
Why CWs not do E.lol solo?
Cuz cuz they dont want to make dual trial box (camp lol unlock).
Sorry but your guild know nothing about this game .
Example:
GWF does 8,000,000 damage
CW does 8,000,000 damage
CW does 8,000,000 damage
SW does 8,000,000 damage
HR does 4,000,000 damage
And gf do 100k any way the GF will just slow down the pt , nm but before y post somthing stupid agan watch the vid agan cuz 8 MIN w/o GF.
Tos ? really i can solo Tos with my CW and GWF.
Gf is only shines in bad pugs.
Agan i ask y stop posting here if y cant understand the problem of GFs then i suggest to go somwhere else trolling .
same group with GF replacing GWF.
CW will do 12,000,000 because damage is boosted by Into The Fray
CW will do 12,000,000 because damage is boosted by Into the fray
SW will do 12,000,000 because damage is boosted by Into the fray
HR will do 6,000,000 because damage is boosted by into the fray
GF does only 2,000,000
GWF group does 36,000,000 damage
GF group does 44,000,000 damage
If you don't understand Into The Fray increases the damage of every group member there is nothing else I can tell you. GWF has nothing like this.
KV makes the whole group take only half the damage. If you don't understand how that helps a group and you think that is worthless too then also there is nothing I can tell you. GWF also has nothing like this.
Venril Sathir- CW
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
GWF group does 36,000,000 damage
GF group does 44,000,000 damage
If understand correctly your number it takes 20% less hp of add mobs generated in GWF group. Game code simply has no time to generate adds because boss is wiped much sooner.
If understand correctly your number it takes 20% less hp of add mobs generated in GWF group. Game code simply has no time to generate adds because boss is wiped much sooner.
I know that, I was just trying to explain the concept of increased damage. In reality the dungeon run would just be much faster as if there were an extra group member. Crits would be bigger and dailies would come much faster which would speed up the run.
Of course damage would be the same for both groups because there is a static amount of hps in each run. But with everyone's damage increased, the GF run would be faster.
It's a bit like comparing a 20k GS group with a 16k GS group. The same amount of damage is being done because the end total is static, but the 20k GS group will finish the dungeon much faster because everyone in the 20k group is doing better damage than the guys in the 16k group.
Venril Sathir- CW
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
edited October 2014
Guys (and Gals!),
I've asked it before, yet i'll do so again and i hope it is the last.
Please provide your feedback in a constructive manner.
Any comments that disparage another, whether individual, guild or group of players has no place in this thread.
If you can't be polite, respectful and considerate in your response then don't provide it at all please.
damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
edited October 2014
This thread is purely for GF Feedback ONLY.
It is not a place for general discussion of other classes.
If anyone would like to discuss other classes, please create your own thread or respond to someone else's.
To clutter this thread up with irrelevant responses purely serves to indicate an inability to take this thread, it's purpose and the need for discussion on changes to GFs seriously.
If you care about GFs and sincerely desire to have improvements made, then be smart, be mature and keep responses in this thread focused upon what it is designed for... GFs.
I have far better things to do in limited time, such as compile worthwhile and valued feedback, than try and 'moderate' immature, pathetic and irrelevant responses.
If you can't keep this thread on topic and purpose, I will request the Forum Moderators to take a hard-line approach in Moderating this thread, rather than trying to keep it clean myself. Your choice.
If you want to waste my time then it is to the detriment of the GF class.
Please don't discuss this post, instead, keep this thread purely for posts that are on topic.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
I've asked it before, yet i'll do so again and i hope it is the last.
Please provide your feedback in a constructive manner.
Any comments that disparage another, whether individual, guild or group of players has no place in this thread.
Please respect the rules set forth by the advocate.
I would prefer not to moderate these threads too much but respect is not optional.
Keep posts on topic. Damnacious is kind enough to volunteer his time and from my own personal discussions with him he cares a lot for relaying the feedback you all provide. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited October 2014
And Damnacious,
I'll have that feedback we discussed written up tonight. I know, I know. Less promises. More Results. *rolls eyes*
Needless to say it's been a busy week.
However for now let's get this ball rolling in the right direction, how does everybody feel about the GF's ATM?
What aspects do you feel your character is excelling in?
What areas need to be improved?
I know that discussions amongst my friends are highly positive regarding the current state of GF's but we still have things we would like improved and even toned down when we are being a bit more objective rather than blinded by joy.
To be honest the only thing I'm not happy with is no AP gain on SOS. If it was changed to where you can get AP gain while SOS was active, but not FROM SOS itself, that would be great.
GF is my favorite class and I'm extremely happy with the abilities themselves-Into The Fray and Knights Valor, but the problem is as Damnacious is trying to explain I *think* is that gives us only one slot for anything else. ITF and KV are so vital that they can't be replaced if you want to be competent. Also at the same time, I'm absolutely in love with mark and I don't want that changed. So what to do? I'm liking Damnacious suggestion about ITF and KV on tab, but how about putting them on the tilde (`) key?
That way we keep mark the way it is and get 3 slots to play with.
Venril Sathir- CW
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
...the problem is as Damnacious is trying to explain I *think* is that gives us only one slot for anything else. ITF and KV are so vital that they can't be replaced if you want to be competent.
Let me see if i can clarify it for people as i seem to have been a bit confusing...
(*assuming Powers are at max Rank 3)
If you were to ONLY use Tab:
It would Mark targets EXACTLY the same as it does now but it would ALSO increase the Damage, Damage Resistance and Run Speed of the GF and party members within 10 feet by 5% and grant the GF 1% of the their Hit Points as Temporary Hit Points. These buffs would ALL last for 6 seconds. It would also temporarily Mark all enemies within 10' for 6 seconds. All enemies Marked receive a Debuff and take 10% more damage from all sources for 6 seconds and all attackers would receive Combat Advantage against Marked targets for 6 seconds.
If Tab is used with Enhanced Mark:
It would increase Threat EXACTLY the same as it does now AND increase the Damage, Debuff and Damage Resistance buffs gained from Tab by +5%, range by +5 feet, temporary Hit Points by +1% and duration by +3 seconds per Rank.
This would mean that you would now have +5% of maximum Hit Points as Temporary Hit Points and you and your party would have +20% Damage and Damage Resistance, +5% Run Speed, debuff Marked targets by 25%, Combat Advantage and Temporarily Mark all enemies within 25' for 15 seconds. This is in addition to being able to Mark single targets as you can currently.
If you were to use Knight's Valor without Enhanced Mark:
You would gain a permanent +15% Damage Resistance (at Rank 3) as long as Knight's Valor was toggled on.
If you use Into the Fray without Enhanced Mark:
You would gain the same benefits as you do now, BUT you would only gain an increase to damage based upon 70% of your Damage Resistance.
If you used Knight's Valor without Enhanced Mark but with Tab:
You would gain all the benefits of Tab as described above which would increase your Damage Resistance from 15% permanently while Knight's Valor is on, to +20% for 6 seconds after you use Tab.
If you used Into the Fray without Enhanced Mark but with Tab:
You would gain all the benefits of Tab and Into the Fray as described above and, while Into the Fray is on, you would gain an increase to damage based upon 75% of your Damage Resistance instead of 70% while both Tab and Into the Fray's durations overlap.
If you used Knight's Valor with Enhanced Mark and Tab:
You would gain +35% Damage Resistance for 15 seconds after using Tab and 15% Damage Resistance once the Tab buff duration expires.
If you used Into the Fray with Enhanced Mark and Tab:
You would gain all the benefits of Into the Fray BUT you would instead have your damage and that of your party increased by 90% of your Damage Resistance for 15 seconds. This damage would drop to 70% of your Damage Resistance once the Tab buff duration expires.
If you used Into the Fray with Knight's Valor, Enhanced Mark and Tab, you would gain (while buffs overlapped):
+20% increased Run Speed
+35% Damage Resistance
+90% of your Damage Resistance as increased Damage
+15% Action Point Gain
+7% Temporary Hit Points
Increases Threat generated by 425%
Buffs allies within 25'
Redirects 50% of the damage that would be dealt to allies to the GF instead
Can Mark single targets at 100'
Temporarily Marks all targets within a 25' burst for 15 seconds
Debuff Marked Targets and reduce their Damage Resistance by 25% for 15 seconds
Combat Advantage for 15 seconds
This would mean that players can either gain a small benefit by using Tab similar to Knight's Valor and Into the Fray without having to use them which would free up 3 Encounter slots, could use Enhanced Mark in a Passive slot to increase the benefits of using Tab which would cost them the use of one Passive slot, or they could use Into the Fray and / or Knight's Valor with Enhanced Mark to gain even greater benefits, depending on how many Encounter slots they were prepared to 'sacrifice' to gain those increased benefits.
This is, essentially, a way to create greater variety and utility for the GF in how they play their character depending on their needs and desires.
As Tab can, could and perhaps should be used at least once every 6 seconds, the GF should not effectively be suffering any reduction in their current capability, even when Tab is simply used by itself.
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
edited October 2014
BUGS:
When Guard is raised to Block there is an initial period of time where incoming damage is not properly being reduced and respecting Block.
While Blocking, damage received may often be significantly greater than its initial base damage and larger than what it would be if the GF was not Blocking at all. This is most often evident while being attacked with ‘fast attack’ At-Wills and Encounter Powers.
The breath attack from Winter Wolves and other Powers and effects ignore Block.
The replenishment of charges of Griffon’s Wrath are not affected by Recovery and should be.
Crescendo can be interrupted while casting.
After cancelling an At-Will attack by raising Guard, the animation continues when Guard is lowered.
SUGGESTIONS:
GFs should be tied with DCs for worst damage
GF's should be doing more DPS than a cleric because All clerics have to heal
Change formula for Block to reduce damage first by Damage Resistance followed by Block.
Increase the amount of damage Blocked by our Guard from 80% to 85%.
Marks from Powers and abilities should last longer than the first hit by a Market target.
Reduce the amount of damage that Knight’s Valor redirects from other players to 25% or have the GF take slightly more damage to encourage more careful use and increase sense of player risk.
Proposed changes to Tab, Enhanced Mark, Knight’s Valor and Into the Fray to be implemented together:
Tab - Improve Tab to also function like a ‘War Cry’ that increases Damage, Damage Resistance and Run Speed of the GF and party members within 10 feet by 5% and grants 1% of the character’s Hit Points as temporary Hit Points for 6 seconds. It should intimidate all enemies within 10 feet, temporarily Marking them for 6 seconds. All enemies Marked receive a Debuff and take 10% more damage from all sources for 6 seconds and attackers receive Combat Advantage against them for 6 seconds.
Enhanced Mark - Also increases Damage, Debuff and Damage Resistance buffs gained from Tab by +5%, range by +5 feet, temporary Hit Points by +1% and duration by +3 seconds per Rank.
Knight’s Valor - Change to increase Damage Resistance by +5% each Rank as Tab now also increases Damage Resistance.
Into the Fray - Change to increase the Damage of the GF and party by 13% of GF’s Damage Resistance at Rank 1, 38% at Rank 2 and 70% at Rank 3 as Tab now increases GF and party Damage.
Combat Superiority should be increased so each Rank it now deals +5% additional damage to foes after they hit you.
Distracting Shield should be increased so that an attacker now briefly deals 2/4/6/8/10% less damage.
Shielded Resurgence should be increased so the GF now gains 2/4/6% of max Hit Points over 10 seconds when affected by a control power.
Powerful Attack should now increase Encounter and At Will Powers by 3/6/9/12/15%.
Weapon Mastery should increase Critical Chance by 2/4/6%.
Pin Down should now affect Powers that Stun and Slow targets for .2/.4/.6 seconds.
Reinforced Surge should now affect Stunned and Prone targets for an additional .2/.4/.6/.8/1 seconds and deal 1/2/3/4/5% more damage.
Stunning Flourish should have an extra 2/4/6/8/10% chance to Crit and Stun for .2/.4/.6/.8/1 seconds on last hit.
Plate Agility and Shield Defense Feats should be swapped around and Plate Agility should now provide 2/4/6/8/10% Deflect Chance.
Tide of Iron’s debuff should reduce physical damage dealt by 3/6/9/12/15%.
Anvil of Doom should now Stun targets for 2 seconds.
Ferocious Reaction should regain 5% of Hit Points at Rank once every 3 minutes at Rank 1 and reduce Cooldown by 30 seconds at Rank 2 and a further 30 seconds at Rank 3.
The animation and / or cast time of Enforced Threat needs to be slightly reduced.
The animation and / or cast time of Crushing Surge needs to be slightly reduced.
The animation and / or cast time of Villian’s Menace needs to be reduced significantly.
Supremacy of Steel needs to have the damage reflected back to an attacker increased significantly.
Enduring Warrior should now heal the GF for 2% of max Hit Points when an enemy is killed with an extra +1% at Rank 2 and a further +1% at Rank 3.
The animation and / or cast time of Crescendo needs to be reduced.
The chance for GFs to gain top tiered loot from Heroic Encounters needs to be increased, particularly taking into account Threat.
Tab Mark should keep current Threat gain and the debuff to Marked targets but the Combat Advantage should be removed and Marks should not be removed the moment the GF is hit while not Blocking.
Animations are too long and should be instant cast to assist the GF in repositioning targets as GFs spend too long needing to Guard.
Totally rework GF class into a Paladin.
Enduring Warrior should now give 5% Lifesteal at Rank 1 and +2% at Rank 2 and 3.
Tab Mark shouldn’t be changed, but a simple change could be made if necessary to allow Tab to Mark a small Area of Effect like Threatening Rush.
The animation and / or cast time of Flourish is too slow and needs to be increased.
The range and spread of Terrifying Impact should be increased.
The self-healing capabilities of GFs are old and not sufficient for current content and need to be increased.
Take Measure needs to be increased.
Grit needs to be Increased.
Shielded Resurgence needs to be increased.
Wrathful Warrior does not benefit from Temporary Hit Points gained from Items and Sets and the internal cooldown needs to be reduced so that it activates more often.
The number of hits required by Reckless Attacker needs to be reduced.
Knight’s Valor should be changed to intercept more damage such as 60% but have a cooldown of 5 seconds with a quick animation.
Knight’s Valor’s glowing blue visual effect needs to be turned down or modified as it causes many players to experience issues with lag.
Supremacy of Steel changes were overdone to a point that was unnecessary. Damage reflected should now be significantly increased.
Reckless Attacker needs to be buffed to provide the same bonus with less stacks.
Tab Mark should do something different depending on the Capstones:
Protector – Hard-Marked targets now deal -5% damage to allies.
Conqueror – Damage taken by Marked targets is now increased by +5%.
Tactician – Action Point Gain is increased by +3% when dealing damage to a Marked target.
Mark should cause the Hard-Marked target to attack the player after 1-2 seconds with CC Immunity being respected.
Marked Targets deal no damage for 2.5 seconds to an ally except the GF with an internal cooldown of 10 seconds and should turn blue visible to the GF and allies while under this effect. This should also affect up to 3 targets in a small Area of Effect.
Deflection should be increased based upon Armor Class so that similar to every 5 points above 10 provides an additional +1% to Deflect Chance.
The Defence cap should be increased by 500 at least or have equipment sets provide more relevant bonuses other than Defence.
Just buffing tab in some ways now would be the best option, an Area of Effect Mark effect is a good idea.
Villain's Menace activation needs to be instant cast.
Cleave should hit every target in the 5' cylinder that is in front of you.
Merge Cleave and Crushing Surge.
Enforced Threat needs to enforce more Threat. Buff it. Also, give us some Damage Reduction after we activate Enforced Threat. We need more Damage Reduction in order to survive.
Tide of Iron should be merged with Threatening Rush.
Shield Talent should instead increase Guard Meter and Deflection Chance by +5% per Rank.
Increase the damage of Aggravating Strike.
Terrifying Impact needs to be widened to 8’ and activated instantly.
Anvil of Doom needs to hit multiple targets in a small area and does more damage to targets below 40% health.
Frontline Surge should have the target limit removed to hit all targets within 30’ of the 10’ cylinder.
Supremacy of Steel should also give Lifesteal to the GF.
The Temporary Hit Points gained from Iron Warrior needs to be significantly increased.
The damage received from Knight’s Valor needs to be reduced.
Enduring Warrior needs to be changed to provide the GF with 1% Temporary Hit Points when the GF is hit by a Critical Hit.
Shielded Resurgence needs to be increased to 3/6/9%.
Distracting Shield needs to be increased to 3/6/9/12/15%.
Powerful Attack needs to be increased to 4/8/12/16/20%.
Grit needs to be increased to 3/6/9%.
Pin down needs to be increased to .3/.6/.9 seconds.
Weapon Mastery needs to be increased to 3/6/9%.
Ubiquitous Shield needs to be changed to reduce Combat Advantage damage dealt by 5/10/15/20/25% and increase Damage Resistance by 2/4/6/8/10%.
Reckless Attacker needs to have damage increased by 10% and Critical Chance increased by 5%.
Armor of Bahamut needs to be increased so when Stamina is below 30% you take 5/10/15/20/25% less damage from all sources.
Crushing Pin needs to be increased to 5 seconds.
Daunting Challenge needs to be increased to reduce damage dealt to allies and GF from Marked targets by 3/6/9/12/15%.
Inspiring Leader needs to be increased to 2/4/6/8/10%.
Animation and / or Cast Time of Tab needs to be increased.
Animation and / or Cast Time of Knee Breaker needs to be increased.
Terrifying Impact’s cast time / animation and Area of Effect needs to be increased.
Grit, Shielded Resurgence and Take Measure all provide effects that are significantly ineffective for current end-game content and need to be increased and have their cooldowns reduced.
Wrathful Warrior needs to be reworked as it only activates from Take Measure and should have its duration and frequency of effect increased.
Tactical Superiority should be increased to balance with other class’s Tier 4 Feats so that it provides either more damage or 1/2/3/4/5% more Critical Chance.
Steel Defence needs to have its duration increased to allow for the casting time / animation of Daily Powers.
Sword Master Paragon lacks an Area of Effect attack and should have one other than those currently available to the Iron Vanguard Paragon.
The damage of At-Will Powers needs to be increased to be balanced with other classes.
Action Points should be gained while using Supremacy of Steel but not from Supremacy of Steel itself.
COMMENTS:
A damage increase is now justified by the power creep of the other classes.
After rework GF is usless only a buffbot he just picked up DC debuff buff role
Not great at dealing damage, but exceptional def/deflection/high hp/ infinite shield/ Trade of score=Fair, may could do with a bit more damage in pve.
Block is slow
Recent changes to the GF have made it a viable class again, but even a properly specced conquerer was still doing meh damage compared to the other classes. I'm a little worried that the new changes to the classes will once again make the GF the 5th wheel in the dungeon.
GFs are a valuable part of current groups.
In PvP, Conqueror GFs do much more burst damage in a single rotation than they do as compared to a similarly geared Sentinel PvP GWF.
Improvements to Block and Threat have made GF tanking a lot better.
Changes to Knight’s Valor and Into the Fray now mean players feel they have to use them in a party to be a good tank and GFs are now expected to be “buff bots” to facilitate party members running into mobs without dying.
There is not enough risk to players when a GF uses Knight’s Valor.
GFs should not be able to permanently Block.
There is not enough risk to players who rush ahead of a GF to engage mobs/enemies.
Removing Combat Advantage from Mark is a good idea as it currently reduces the need for smarter game play and devalues other class’s Combat Advantage Powers and benefits.
GFs should not need to deal high damage to maintain threat as we have working Threat generation skills currently.
A review of the Conqueror tree could be good but DPS GFs should have a severely limited ability to tank by reducing their amount of Threat and Defense to increase their DPS.
The Tab suggestion involving an Offensive and Defensive stance could work well.
Bug or not, the ability for Terrifying Impact to prone CC Immune targets should remain.
GFs are a great class but the attack speeds seem too slow.
Ferocious Reaction seems to work as intended.
The GF is one of the lowest damage dealing classes in the game. Although GFs should not have the capability to deal as much damage as pure DPS classes, the current damage capability of the GF needs to be improved through increasing certain Feats to ensure that the GF is still a viable and competitive class for PVP when comparing against other classes.
By increasing the duration of Prones and adding the capability for Feats to also affect the duration of Stuns, GFs will have the facility of being competitive, viable and useful in PVP without the necessity for drastically increasing their damage capability.
The GF has one of the least facilities to heal themselves out of all the classes, with only one Daily Power, two situational Passives and one situational Feat that actually Heal the GF. Small changes to these existing Powers and Feats will assist in ensuring the GF is capable of surviving with the aid of a DC more easily in PVE and facilitate the capacity of the GF to survive one versus one in PVP.
GWFs of similar GS outshine my GF in every corner and the only reason to feel a little bit useful is by using Knight’s Valor and Into the Fray.
No other class now needs healing or control other than the GF as other classes can out-heal any incoming damage using Lifesteal and this makes the GF unneeded in content unless they use Knight’s Valor and Into the Fray.
Of all the content that has ever existed for NW in its prime, the new style content is the most tailored for the tanky GF.
Into the Fray and Knight’s Valor are perfectly fine and balanced and don’t need to be changed at all for any reason.
Anyone who wants to "rework" "reinvent" "re-examine" "re-evaluate" "rethink" the Tab Mark functionality ,should at least provides us the current advantages Mark gives to GFs (which are decent).
It's also prudent to keep in mind that increasing GF damage has the possibility of making the GWF class obsolete. If our damage was raised to close to GWF level it would be disastrous for that class.
GFs are more than "viable" in PvP, they're one of the strongest classes at the moment.GF single-target damage does not need a boost. GFs also already have some nasty stun lock chains; longer duration of that cc would be far over the top. Into the Fray could do with a smaller boost, while the GF's tab feature could be something more interesting.
GFs, Lifesteal, other classes and why GFs are almost completely obsolete:
Currently and in the foreseeable future, GFs and DCs are almost completely obsolete in PVE content and unable to reasonably compete in PVP due to the self-healing capabilities afforded DPS classes when they stack Lifesteal.
The reason for this is that high DPS with high Lifesteal enables characters to quickly, if not instantly, heal themselves to full in a matter of seconds. Unfortunately, GFs have the second lowest damage dealing capability in game and do not possess the same self-healing facilities as other classes. Consequently, GFs are both unnecessary and almost useless in both PVE and PVP.
In new ToD content, NPCs and mobs can kill a GF with one to two hits and there is very little the GF can do to prevent this, particularly if they Block for an extended period of time (which is almost commonplace and necessary). Other classes suffer the same problem where they can be killed in one hit, yet they also have the facility to heal themselves to full really quickly where the GF does not, except for a very limited opportunity (which has now been reduced) by using the Daily Power Fighter's Recovery.
What needs to happen is either Lifesteal is reworked so self-healing is reduced and limited or GFs gain greater Lifesteal and other self-healing facilities to compensate and balance them out against other classes.
As one non-GF player stated on the forums "I consider myself as the responsible for my own survival, not a cleric or a tank", which highlights just how useless GFs and DCs are in both PVP and PVE with the current Lifesteal mechanics and use.
This is from a GF player which sums it up rather nicely "Damage already translates into survivability in that the quicker you kill something the more likely you live but this also makes you more likely to live simply by dealing more damage even if the target is still alive. It is a form of survivability that trumps innate durability of tough/squishy class design by making the squishier able to be more durable than the supposed tougher classes."
One way to improve some of the GFs self-healing capabilities would be to improve the Passive Power Enduring Warrior to give a flat % increase to Lifesteal and this % amount would need to be proportionally double what is currently obtainable by other classes, such as 20% at Rank 3.
If changes are made to Lifesteal to reduce the effectiveness of self-healing and increase reliance upon GF and DC classes and the typical 'Tank and Healer' roles, the need to employ NPCs that can kill a geared GF with maximum Damage Resistance and over 50k HP would not be necessary, PVP would become more balanced, players would not have the same ease of soloing high end content and every class would be better off.
PREVIEW COMMENTS:
Finally have two really excellent roles to choose from. Protector for premade PVP to keep team mates alive or all out dps conqueror that can essentially one shot you with knights challenge applied properly. Can counter balance most classes very effectively.
schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited October 2014
Enduring Warrior should now heal the GF for 2% of max Hit Points when an enemy is killed with an extra +1% at Rank 2 and a further +1% at Rank 3.
I run near 50 E.lol on weekend i just pushed my self to the best possible dps and focused on killing adds my score was always the lowest.
1 run 10-20 kills so agan i say its total usless even with those buffs .
But i realy like your last comment :
Currently and in the foreseeable future, GFs and DCs are almost completely obsolete in PVE content and unable to reasonably compete in PVP due to the self-healing capabilities afforded DPS classes when they stack Lifesteal.
The reason for this is that high DPS with high Lifesteal enables characters to quickly, if not instantly, heal themselves to full in a matter of seconds. Unfortunately, GFs have the second lowest damage dealing capability in game and do not possess the same self-healing facilities as other classes. Consequently, GFs are both unnecessary and almost useless in both PVE and PVP.
In new ToD content, NPCs and mobs can kill a GF with one to two hits and there is very little the GF can do to prevent this, particularly if they Block for an extended period of time (which is almost commonplace and necessary). Other classes suffer the same problem where they can be killed in one hit, yet they also have the facility to heal themselves to full really quickly where the GF does not, except for a very limited opportunity (which has now been reduced) by using the Daily Power Fighter's Recovery.
What needs to happen is either Lifesteal is reworked so self-healing is reduced and limited or GFs gain greater Lifesteal and other self-healing facilities to compensate and balance them out against other classes.
As one non-GF player stated on the forums "I consider myself as the responsible for my own survival, not a cleric or a tank", which highlights just how useless GFs and DCs are in both PVP and PVE with the current Lifesteal mechanics and use.
This is from a GF player which sums it up rather nicely "Damage already translates into survivability in that the quicker you kill something the more likely you live but this also makes you more likely to live simply by dealing more damage even if the target is still alive. It is a form of survivability that trumps innate durability of tough/squishy class design by making the squishier able to be more durable than the supposed tougher classes."
One way to improve some of the GFs self-healing capabilities would be to improve the Passive Power Enduring Warrior to give a flat % increase to Lifesteal and this % amount would need to be proportionally double what is currently obtainable by other classes, such as 20% at Rank 3.
If changes are made to Lifesteal to reduce the effectiveness of self-healing and increase reliance upon GF and DC classes and the typical 'Tank and Healer' roles, the need to employ NPCs that can kill a geared GF with maximum Damage Resistance and over 50k HP would not be necessary, PVP would become more balanced, players would not have the same ease of soloing high end content and every class would be better off.
+1 awesome feedback .
Next week suggestion :to change those offhand bonuses to usefull features.
Cuz exept one all are terrible.
Few ideas:
Guarded Assault : now also mark your affected attacker .
Combat Superiority : now give you 5 % more crit chance.
I try and listen to what everyone has to say and I will always do my best to ensure your perspective and that of others is included each week, even if it might not be something I agree with!
Your opinion and feedback and that of everyone else is important, valued and is something I need to pass on to the Development Team.
Awesome work on the continued feedback and I hope you and everyone keeps it coming!
Edit: btw, I did include your specific feedback too just in case you wondered
Next week suggestion :to change those offhand bonuses to usefull features.
Cuz exept one all are terrible.
Few ideas:
Guarded Assault : now also mark your affected attacker .
Combat Superiority : now give you 5 % more crit chance.
Steel Defense : now give you 2 sec more immunity.
Steel Blitz: increase the chance to 5%
I think you're making a good point we can discuss for this next weekly report buddy.
So...
For discussion over this next week, perhaps you guys would be able to consider these questions and provide me with your perspective:
How does everybody feel about the GF's ATM?
What aspects do you feel your character is excelling in?
What areas need to be improved?
What would everyone like to see changed, or not, about these Offhand Artifact bonuses?
What are your thoughts?
Let me know!
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited October 2014
I like the Combat Superiority one, personally. It's one of my preferred features, and I don't much like swapping it out for Enhanced Mark in an attempt to peel threat off bad players, but I do. So the added threat is something that would complement my style.
DCs have some features that support their buffing role for allies. I could see Trample being improved into a party buff rather than a personal one, for GFs that like that role.
Comments
Crixus, perhaps you could fully read what I proposed? Everything you want improved I have already proposed and those proposals are exactly what you are now contesting.
Seems rather odd to be having a discussion with fellow players about how my proposed changes are bad, how I am somehow bad for proposing them and how players would prefer something different, when their desires are what i've already proposed!
Nice suggestion you see GF as i see .
GF need total rework cuz her skills heroic feats and feats our outdated and still in beta stadium .
Hint turn your suggestion to the req format .
I understand if you are upset but.
Pls consider only a few geared good GF left in community, & we are the last hope of GF population what is continuously decreasing .
The question is why GF population is dropped after mod 4 ?
Cuz they nerfed patch after patch GF and buffed patch after patch HR CW GWF SW.
Now after mod 5 TR & DC Total rework they will put us agan on the dark middle age .
Cuz any one can be a king of DPS and any one can survive the add swarm(via THE OP LS) only GF cannot do this .
Cuz GF feats and heroic feats are still in beta stadium .
Minor buffs wont help the GF population .
They need rework to make this class agan popular .(as it was in beta)
GF armor and weapons are the cheapest in the market ask your self why?
Cuz any one know this is GF is the ugly duck in NW.
PS: 03/16/2013 I play GF from until now .
So i know GF was only 1 time OP, but after stalwart nerf Noah dont wated us in her ark.
Any way Chris hates(to play or whatever) GF ( and any warrior class) no wonder when ever i saw him play he chose only those 3 classes ( HR TR CW ).
Well lets say (i know how this will work) "I am Chris" i reading your suggestions .
Suggestion:BLALALALALALALALALAL
Nerf KV Nerf ITF BLALALBLALBABABLABLA
-Programmers : what was the weekly req from GFs
-Chris say : NERF to KV and ITF
-Programmers :"oo nice we can do this" .
PS: sorry i wrote from mobile " re-edited now"
You've made some good points and i'll be doing my best to ensure they get placed in this week's report too.
I did read what you said bro, I'm sorry if I might have missed something but I have read many ideas to change the Tab mark but my idea was just a little improvement. And I think we all agree that gf dps is bad, I was just saying it again because that is one of the main issues in my opinion.
And I don't think your proposed changed are bad, just changing tab and making ITF and KV weaker as i think that would greatly impact the class in a negative way for pve. I just like our tab the way it is now, if it was changed to KV or something then pvp would be worse off right away. I just think it needs a buff.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
You're all good buddy. No need to apologise.
I looked at it this way.. If KV and ItF are reduced and that is then added to Tab then nothing is actually lost. However, it does provide some additional options for the GF, including increasing the DPS and DR of GFs that don't want to use KV and / or ItF. The durations aren't long as standard, yet when slotted with EM it is quite reasonable. In PVE, if you were to use Tab once ever 6 seconds as a minimum then you would constantly have the full benefits of KV and ItF as they are now.
I have no problems at all with the way Tab functions at present in PVE, yet I can certainly understand the desire to increase it's capability in PVP. My proposed changes would mean an increase in general (not just with KV/ItF/Tab/EM) damage of something like 15% in some cases with +3% increased Crit. In PVP it really does seem that we lack a bit of damage that would allow us to actually be reasonably competitive.
I thought the introduction of an temporary AoE Mark with the Tab function to go with the current single target Mark would work well, especially as it would allow greater opportunity for the GF to keep Marks up on mobs and, in particular, present the opportunity to AoE Mark without using TR or ET. If you combined the Tab AoE Mark with ET then it would work well at holding HATE/aggro.
I just saw it as a good way to try and satisfy a lot of people's needs without making the GF too overpowered or detracting from the usefulness of Powers such as KV and ItF in essence.
The main thing I tried to consider and ensure was that my proposed changes didn't actually 'nerf' any of our current capabilities but offer an increase, as I don't want our capabilities in either PVP or PVE to be lessened in any way.
Anyway, thanks for your response and feedback buddy. I appreciate it!
maybe test this and see how it fares on actually gameplay
knight's valor: make it so we can intercept more damage-perhaps 60%- but have a cool down of 5 seconds to make it count, real quick animation please.also tone down the blue color thing as many players seem to experience issues
SoS: It was overnerfed to a point unneeded.damage output should be increased significantly.it's easy to avoid and detect
buff conqueror capstone to provide the same bonus-if not more-with less stacks(i play protecor but i believe it is only fair)
i like the idea of small aoe mark but here is my thought on it: keep it evxactly the same but do the following:
capstones
protector:hard-marked target deals another -5% dmg to your allies
congueror: damage taken is increased by 5% for marked target
tactician: ap generation when striking the target increased by 3%
mark causes the hard marked target to attack the player after 1-2 seconds,bosses are immune to this effect,perhaps golems and other adds with control immunity as well to keep some challenge in maintaining threat
or try this: marked target deals no damage for 2.5 seconds to other players but you, internal cooldown 10 seconds.mark becomes blue on tooltip when extra skill is out of cooldown.this mark on players should be blue as well to notify everyone.perhaps add an area of effect to this skill to affect up to 3 targets that stand close to each other
increase deflection depending on AC as well,like 1% extra deflection per 5 ranks of AC above 10. it is both fair and realistic i believe
increase defence cap by 500 at least or make sets provide more relevant bonuses than huge defence
I Wouldnt actually mind ITF on tab, it would have good use in pvp but still the dmg loss from our mark would bother me
But in my opinion I think just buffing tab in some ways now would be the best option, an aoe mark effect is a good idea.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
XD108x, I have been supplying feedback and suggestions to the GF class since release. The reason for my "negative" comment is because I have had dozens of my feedback/ suggestion posts deleted by mods of these forums.
GF facts, prior to mod 5
1) GF DPS sucks for all 3 feat trees
2) With over (20k GS) 5500 Defense and 2500 deflection I can still get "one shotted" by bosses (ELoL and ESoT (epic)) if I don't time my guard correctly or have lag. Sometimes the animation shows I am guarded and I still get one shotted.
3) Many of our at-wills, encounters and dailies need to be updated to compete with other classes.
4) Prior to Mod 4 being released we had a huge bug listing and the majority of those bugs are still NOT fixed.
5) We receive NERFS almost every patch while other classes are being buffed. The nerf to SoS was completely uncalled for as it was the only reason GF's would spec protector. Now that tree is dead.
Suggestions
1) Villain's Menace activation needs to be instant!
2) Cleave should hit every target in the 5' cylinder that is in front of you. I believe it only hits a maximum of 5 targets
3) Merge Cleave and Crushing Surge. Even with the buff to crushing surge nobody is using it.
4) Enforced threat needs to enforce more threat. Buff it. Also, give us some dmg reduction after we activate Enforced Threat. We need more damage reduction in order to survive.
5) Tide of Iron is a joke. Merge it with threatening rush.
6) Shield Talent is a joke. How about "Increases your Guard Meter and Deflection by 5% per rank"
7) Increase the damage of Aggravating Strike. We need more dps to generate threat to obtain aggro.
8) Terrifying Impact needs to be widened and activated instantly. Currently, by the time TI goes off the mobs are already out of the cylinder and you miss. Speed up the animation AND increase the width of the cylinder to 8'
9) Anvil of Doom needs to be able to hit multiple mobs in a small area. Make it an AOE effect which does even more damage to mobs below 40% health.
10) Frontline Surge should hit all mobs within 30' 10' cylinder. I believe it's only 5.
11) Supremacy of Steel should also give a lifesteal capability. If pc's and npc's are dumb enough to hit you with SoS activated then give us some health back. I won't even complain about the lack of AP generation due to the previous nerf.
12) Iron Warrior needs to give back more temporary hit points. Try it on the boss in ESoT or the Scorpions in ELoL. It's laughable at how little it gives back.
13) I love Knight's Valor but I really wish that I ate less dmg from my party. There needs to be a way to reduce the damage we receive when the idiots in our group decide to stand in the red...and yes, I am evil..I will turn off KV and watch them die.
14) Enduring Warrior, really? None of us GF's do enough damage to kill a mob much less give us a stupid fn 1% health back. We are lucky if we finish 6th in dps in a 5 man team. Scrap it and change it to "When an enemy crits you, you regain temporary hit points equal to 1% of your max hit points". We do not kill mobs in PvE. Even the dumbest Developer knows this is useless.
15) Shielded Resurgence... Buff it to 3/6/9 %
16) Distracting Shield...Buff it to 3/6/9/12/15 %....
17) Powerful Attack...Buff it to 4/8/12/16/20 %
18) Grit needs buffed...to 3/6/9%
19) Pin Down...seriously is trash...buff it to .3/.6/.9 seconds. It's not like we do enough damage anyhow to kill something that is proned.
20) Weapon Mastery crit needs to be buffed...to 3/6/9%
21) Ubiquitous Shield needs to be reworked to "Reduce the combat advantage against you by 5/10/15/20/25% as well as Reduce the dmg taken by you 2/4/6/8/10%
22) Reckless Attacker needs buffed ...increase damage by 10% and Critical Chance by 5%
23) Armor of Bahamut needs buffed...when stamina is below 30%, you take 5/10/15/20/25% less damage from all sources
24) Crushing Pin needs to be buffed to 5 seconds
25) Daunting Challenge needs to be changed to "marked targets now deal 3/6/9/12/15% less damage to everyone in your party (INCLUDING THE GF)
26) Inspiring Leader should be buffed to 2/4/6/8/10%
Anarchist, level 60 CW
Arsenic, level 60 TR
Pluck Yew, level 60 HR
Therapissed, level 60 DC
This was the reason for my complaint about Soulforge not working. IMO if they fixed soulforge to not randomly not work this wouldn't even be a defensible issue.
At the moment to die you have to have
1) soul forge not work or have proc'd it within in the last 2 minutes
2) position badly/lag
3) not have a guard up or have been wittled down before massive strike.
And even when 1 to 3 occur you have the knowledge that usually on the next fight you can cause 1 to 3 not to occur... As it is most of the time soulforge does work and you just need to be unlucky with numbers, positioning, and *soulforge*.
Also, anyone not using soulforge while intending to main tank in content that hits as hard as eSoT or eLoL is basically making an indefensible decision. If they know they can be one shotted why would they not soulforge? Back in mod 3 it was "good/uber players don't need it", but the very fact that multiple people write out (2) basically tells us.... mod 3 is no more...
Also i want to clarify the advantages of current mark:
Mark as it is now: -20% DR plus CA (+15% damage).
Anyone who wants to "rework" "reinvent" "reexamine" "reevaluate" "rethink" the tab MArk functionality ,should at least provides us the current advantages MArk gives to GFs(which to me are decent)
Now to suggestions:
1.Animations are too slow:Both in pve/pvp,especially on mod4 pve thr GF can be interrupted during his animations.
Enforced Threat is slow.
Villain's Menace is slow.
Flourish is slow.
Mark tab is slow .
Knee Breaker is slow.
crushing surge is so slow that actually is lower dps than tooltip.cause it take more than 1 sec to do 1 hit.
2.Griffon's Wrath is not affected by recovery.
In order to have a full charge you have to wait 45 secs.The total damage in 45 secs is inferrior to cleave....Wicked reminder and the push encounter of Tr have significantly shorter cooldawns with same charges(3).Either make GW affected by recovery or shorten the time charges.
3.Certain spells go through block.
Winter wolfbreath for example.
4.Terrifying Impact daily.
It has a very narrow cone and a long casting animation.Both need rework.
5.Gf self healings are obsolete for mod3/4/5 content.
Too small heal buffs.
Grit,Shielded resurgence ,take measure all are around 3-5% hp.With 30-50 secs cooldawn.Frankly this is ridicoulous small for current pve adds and bosses.
6.Wrathfull warrior feat from Conq tree ,needs a rework.it is only activated from take measure.Even then it lasts for 2 secs.2 secs one cleave.It needs a buff in time duration and it has to be proced more often.
7.Tactical superiority is extremely lucking for Gfs.5 points into a tier 4 feat in order to get +5% more damage.other classes in t4 have feats that give them +20% more damage or significunt bonuses in deflection/dps/control.tactical superiority is a relic from the past.
A good idea is to ad more damage.Or more crit.+5% more crit will be balanced for me in 5/5. (1/2/3/4/5%)
8.Crescendo can be interrupted.
yet the tooltip clearly stays that you are immune to cc while casting.crescendo can be interrupted or the nemy can be dodged AFTER you started hitting him.LMAO.
9.Steel Defence.Cause animations are so slow and steel defence is activated at the beggining of animations,its usability is decreased.Less time immune really.So it needs a duration increase.
10.Swordmaster paragon tree lacks an aoe attack.Isn't swordmaster the dps path?IV has the FS.SM has none!!Only Terrifying Impact.And this has a narrow cone and extremely slow animation.
WMS is so slow and so soft hitting that is a joke.
Mark also debuffs monster damage 10% if you get daunting challenge in the tactician tree.
I think it's also prudent to keep in mind that increasing GF damage has the possibility of making the GWF class obsolete. Some of us don't realize that GF is still the most powerful mod 4 PVE class-even after the nerfs. Remember GWF has no group buffs and some groups are already taking us over GWFs. If our damage was raised to close to GWF level it would be disastrous for that class.
I noticed someone earlier that said tide of iron is worthless...........it debuffs damage resistance and also stacks with mark debuff and if you have a plague fire too, things will die a lot faster to say the least. I use it every fight. You also restore stamina and you'll never run out if you use it this way. Tide with the KV+ITF combo (+50% damage and -50% damage taken PLUS 15% action point gain even WITHOUT the tactician capstone) affects groups more than any other class.
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
LOL MY DPS as GWF is x5 times bigger then my conq GF .
You dont know nothing about this game also go cry in gwf thread.(**** GWF)
I can even beat 20k dps oriented CWs .
Conq is not even close to any one.
You put 4th skill on tab and such ability will have mixed effect with existing marking (aggro+debuff). Call it Guardian Mastery for a moment.
Let see how it could work
Mastery KV has object-specifc effect with CD, where you intercept 70-90% of damage from that master marked mob.
Mastery ItF - you debuff mob damage and give +20% buff to anyone (except you) who attacks him in this time
Rest of skills: increase aggro from damage you produce or make them more risk-vs-reward (or almost suicidal).
Just examples:
Mastery Knight Challenge - you deal double damage to each other and you deal another 50-100% damage to each other depending on threat.
Master Lunging Strike - you deal 50% more damage but attacked mobs attack you back with double damage in 5-8 few seconds.
Another things non related to tab skill management, just for your dossier:
- enduring warrior feat is not so useful and unrealistic. gf don't kill mobs per second like CW/SW, it needs be reworked.
- crushing surge animation is too slow, there is a delay when you switch between at-will and encounters. cleave has same issue. I play all other classes to some degree, transition between at-wills and encounters is smooth.
- after stopping at will attacks in guarded mode your character continues to do same attack pattern in next few seconds, should stopped by default once guard is down.
- no matter how good encounters are, at-will damage (or weapon damage) is far behind compared to other classes.
— (The unwritten rule)
Sorry but your guild know nothing about this game .
Example:
GWF does 8,000,000 damage
CW does 8,000,000 damage
CW does 8,000,000 damage
SW does 8,000,000 damage
HR does 4,000,000 damage
And gf do 100k any way the GF will just slow down the pt , nm but before y post somthing stupid agan watch the vid agan cuz 8 MIN w/o GF.
Tos ? really i can solo Tos with my CW and GWF.
Gf is only shines in bad pugs.
Agan i ask y stop posting here if y cant understand the problem of GFs then i suggest to go somwhere else trolling .
CWs like you say alway your char is underpowered and ask for buff s and we all know :
NW PVE dungs req only 1CW to finish it. There is no need for any PT.
Why CWs not do E.lol solo?
Cuz cuz they dont want to make dual trial box (camp lol unlock).
same group with GF replacing GWF.
CW will do 12,000,000 because damage is boosted by Into The Fray
CW will do 12,000,000 because damage is boosted by Into the fray
SW will do 12,000,000 because damage is boosted by Into the fray
HR will do 6,000,000 because damage is boosted by into the fray
GF does only 2,000,000
GWF group does 36,000,000 damage
GF group does 44,000,000 damage
If you don't understand Into The Fray increases the damage of every group member there is nothing else I can tell you. GWF has nothing like this.
KV makes the whole group take only half the damage. If you don't understand how that helps a group and you think that is worthless too then also there is nothing I can tell you. GWF also has nothing like this.
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
— (The unwritten rule)
I know that, I was just trying to explain the concept of increased damage. In reality the dungeon run would just be much faster as if there were an extra group member. Crits would be bigger and dailies would come much faster which would speed up the run.
Of course damage would be the same for both groups because there is a static amount of hps in each run. But with everyone's damage increased, the GF run would be faster.
It's a bit like comparing a 20k GS group with a 16k GS group. The same amount of damage is being done because the end total is static, but the 20k GS group will finish the dungeon much faster because everyone in the 20k group is doing better damage than the guys in the 16k group.
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
I've asked it before, yet i'll do so again and i hope it is the last.
Please provide your feedback in a constructive manner.
Any comments that disparage another, whether individual, guild or group of players has no place in this thread.
If you can't be polite, respectful and considerate in your response then don't provide it at all please.
It is not a place for general discussion of other classes.
If anyone would like to discuss other classes, please create your own thread or respond to someone else's.
To clutter this thread up with irrelevant responses purely serves to indicate an inability to take this thread, it's purpose and the need for discussion on changes to GFs seriously.
If you care about GFs and sincerely desire to have improvements made, then be smart, be mature and keep responses in this thread focused upon what it is designed for... GFs.
I have far better things to do in limited time, such as compile worthwhile and valued feedback, than try and 'moderate' immature, pathetic and irrelevant responses.
If you can't keep this thread on topic and purpose, I will request the Forum Moderators to take a hard-line approach in Moderating this thread, rather than trying to keep it clean myself. Your choice.
If you want to waste my time then it is to the detriment of the GF class.
Please don't discuss this post, instead, keep this thread purely for posts that are on topic.
Please respect the rules set forth by the advocate.
I would prefer not to moderate these threads too much but respect is not optional.
Keep posts on topic. Damnacious is kind enough to volunteer his time and from my own personal discussions with him he cares a lot for relaying the feedback you all provide. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
I'll have that feedback we discussed written up tonight. I know, I know. Less promises. More Results. *rolls eyes*
Needless to say it's been a busy week.
However for now let's get this ball rolling in the right direction, how does everybody feel about the GF's ATM?
What aspects do you feel your character is excelling in?
What areas need to be improved?
I know that discussions amongst my friends are highly positive regarding the current state of GF's but we still have things we would like improved and even toned down when we are being a bit more objective rather than blinded by joy.
GF is my favorite class and I'm extremely happy with the abilities themselves-Into The Fray and Knights Valor, but the problem is as Damnacious is trying to explain I *think* is that gives us only one slot for anything else. ITF and KV are so vital that they can't be replaced if you want to be competent. Also at the same time, I'm absolutely in love with mark and I don't want that changed. So what to do? I'm liking Damnacious suggestion about ITF and KV on tab, but how about putting them on the tilde (`) key?
That way we keep mark the way it is and get 3 slots to play with.
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
Let me see if i can clarify it for people as i seem to have been a bit confusing...
(*assuming Powers are at max Rank 3)
If you were to ONLY use Tab:
It would Mark targets EXACTLY the same as it does now but it would ALSO increase the Damage, Damage Resistance and Run Speed of the GF and party members within 10 feet by 5% and grant the GF 1% of the their Hit Points as Temporary Hit Points. These buffs would ALL last for 6 seconds. It would also temporarily Mark all enemies within 10' for 6 seconds. All enemies Marked receive a Debuff and take 10% more damage from all sources for 6 seconds and all attackers would receive Combat Advantage against Marked targets for 6 seconds.
If Tab is used with Enhanced Mark:
It would increase Threat EXACTLY the same as it does now AND increase the Damage, Debuff and Damage Resistance buffs gained from Tab by +5%, range by +5 feet, temporary Hit Points by +1% and duration by +3 seconds per Rank.
This would mean that you would now have +5% of maximum Hit Points as Temporary Hit Points and you and your party would have +20% Damage and Damage Resistance, +5% Run Speed, debuff Marked targets by 25%, Combat Advantage and Temporarily Mark all enemies within 25' for 15 seconds. This is in addition to being able to Mark single targets as you can currently.
If you were to use Knight's Valor without Enhanced Mark:
You would gain a permanent +15% Damage Resistance (at Rank 3) as long as Knight's Valor was toggled on.
If you use Into the Fray without Enhanced Mark:
You would gain the same benefits as you do now, BUT you would only gain an increase to damage based upon 70% of your Damage Resistance.
If you used Knight's Valor without Enhanced Mark but with Tab:
You would gain all the benefits of Tab as described above which would increase your Damage Resistance from 15% permanently while Knight's Valor is on, to +20% for 6 seconds after you use Tab.
If you used Into the Fray without Enhanced Mark but with Tab:
You would gain all the benefits of Tab and Into the Fray as described above and, while Into the Fray is on, you would gain an increase to damage based upon 75% of your Damage Resistance instead of 70% while both Tab and Into the Fray's durations overlap.
If you used Knight's Valor with Enhanced Mark and Tab:
You would gain +35% Damage Resistance for 15 seconds after using Tab and 15% Damage Resistance once the Tab buff duration expires.
If you used Into the Fray with Enhanced Mark and Tab:
You would gain all the benefits of Into the Fray BUT you would instead have your damage and that of your party increased by 90% of your Damage Resistance for 15 seconds. This damage would drop to 70% of your Damage Resistance once the Tab buff duration expires.
If you used Into the Fray with Knight's Valor, Enhanced Mark and Tab, you would gain (while buffs overlapped):
This would mean that players can either gain a small benefit by using Tab similar to Knight's Valor and Into the Fray without having to use them which would free up 3 Encounter slots, could use Enhanced Mark in a Passive slot to increase the benefits of using Tab which would cost them the use of one Passive slot, or they could use Into the Fray and / or Knight's Valor with Enhanced Mark to gain even greater benefits, depending on how many Encounter slots they were prepared to 'sacrifice' to gain those increased benefits.
This is, essentially, a way to create greater variety and utility for the GF in how they play their character depending on their needs and desires.
As Tab can, could and perhaps should be used at least once every 6 seconds, the GF should not effectively be suffering any reduction in their current capability, even when Tab is simply used by itself.
SUGGESTIONS:
COMMENTS:
- A damage increase is now justified by the power creep of the other classes.
- After rework GF is usless only a buffbot he just picked up DC debuff buff role
- Not great at dealing damage, but exceptional def/deflection/high hp/ infinite shield/ Trade of score=Fair, may could do with a bit more damage in pve.
- Block is slow
- Recent changes to the GF have made it a viable class again, but even a properly specced conquerer was still doing meh damage compared to the other classes. I'm a little worried that the new changes to the classes will once again make the GF the 5th wheel in the dungeon.
- GFs are a valuable part of current groups.
- In PvP, Conqueror GFs do much more burst damage in a single rotation than they do as compared to a similarly geared Sentinel PvP GWF.
- Improvements to Block and Threat have made GF tanking a lot better.
- Changes to Knight’s Valor and Into the Fray now mean players feel they have to use them in a party to be a good tank and GFs are now expected to be “buff bots” to facilitate party members running into mobs without dying.
- There is not enough risk to players when a GF uses Knight’s Valor.
- GFs should not be able to permanently Block.
- There is not enough risk to players who rush ahead of a GF to engage mobs/enemies.
- Removing Combat Advantage from Mark is a good idea as it currently reduces the need for smarter game play and devalues other class’s Combat Advantage Powers and benefits.
- GFs should not need to deal high damage to maintain threat as we have working Threat generation skills currently.
- A review of the Conqueror tree could be good but DPS GFs should have a severely limited ability to tank by reducing their amount of Threat and Defense to increase their DPS.
- The Tab suggestion involving an Offensive and Defensive stance could work well.
- Bug or not, the ability for Terrifying Impact to prone CC Immune targets should remain.
- GFs are a great class but the attack speeds seem too slow.
- Ferocious Reaction seems to work as intended.
- The GF is one of the lowest damage dealing classes in the game. Although GFs should not have the capability to deal as much damage as pure DPS classes, the current damage capability of the GF needs to be improved through increasing certain Feats to ensure that the GF is still a viable and competitive class for PVP when comparing against other classes.
- By increasing the duration of Prones and adding the capability for Feats to also affect the duration of Stuns, GFs will have the facility of being competitive, viable and useful in PVP without the necessity for drastically increasing their damage capability.
- The GF has one of the least facilities to heal themselves out of all the classes, with only one Daily Power, two situational Passives and one situational Feat that actually Heal the GF. Small changes to these existing Powers and Feats will assist in ensuring the GF is capable of surviving with the aid of a DC more easily in PVE and facilitate the capacity of the GF to survive one versus one in PVP.
- GWFs of similar GS outshine my GF in every corner and the only reason to feel a little bit useful is by using Knight’s Valor and Into the Fray.
- No other class now needs healing or control other than the GF as other classes can out-heal any incoming damage using Lifesteal and this makes the GF unneeded in content unless they use Knight’s Valor and Into the Fray.
- Of all the content that has ever existed for NW in its prime, the new style content is the most tailored for the tanky GF.
- Into the Fray and Knight’s Valor are perfectly fine and balanced and don’t need to be changed at all for any reason.
- Anyone who wants to "rework" "reinvent" "re-examine" "re-evaluate" "rethink" the Tab Mark functionality ,should at least provides us the current advantages Mark gives to GFs (which are decent).
- It's also prudent to keep in mind that increasing GF damage has the possibility of making the GWF class obsolete. If our damage was raised to close to GWF level it would be disastrous for that class.
- GFs are more than "viable" in PvP, they're one of the strongest classes at the moment.GF single-target damage does not need a boost. GFs also already have some nasty stun lock chains; longer duration of that cc would be far over the top. Into the Fray could do with a smaller boost, while the GF's tab feature could be something more interesting.
- GFs, Lifesteal, other classes and why GFs are almost completely obsolete:
Currently and in the foreseeable future, GFs and DCs are almost completely obsolete in PVE content and unable to reasonably compete in PVP due to the self-healing capabilities afforded DPS classes when they stack Lifesteal.The reason for this is that high DPS with high Lifesteal enables characters to quickly, if not instantly, heal themselves to full in a matter of seconds. Unfortunately, GFs have the second lowest damage dealing capability in game and do not possess the same self-healing facilities as other classes. Consequently, GFs are both unnecessary and almost useless in both PVE and PVP.
In new ToD content, NPCs and mobs can kill a GF with one to two hits and there is very little the GF can do to prevent this, particularly if they Block for an extended period of time (which is almost commonplace and necessary). Other classes suffer the same problem where they can be killed in one hit, yet they also have the facility to heal themselves to full really quickly where the GF does not, except for a very limited opportunity (which has now been reduced) by using the Daily Power Fighter's Recovery.
What needs to happen is either Lifesteal is reworked so self-healing is reduced and limited or GFs gain greater Lifesteal and other self-healing facilities to compensate and balance them out against other classes.
As one non-GF player stated on the forums "I consider myself as the responsible for my own survival, not a cleric or a tank", which highlights just how useless GFs and DCs are in both PVP and PVE with the current Lifesteal mechanics and use.
This is from a GF player which sums it up rather nicely "Damage already translates into survivability in that the quicker you kill something the more likely you live but this also makes you more likely to live simply by dealing more damage even if the target is still alive. It is a form of survivability that trumps innate durability of tough/squishy class design by making the squishier able to be more durable than the supposed tougher classes."
One way to improve some of the GFs self-healing capabilities would be to improve the Passive Power Enduring Warrior to give a flat % increase to Lifesteal and this % amount would need to be proportionally double what is currently obtainable by other classes, such as 20% at Rank 3.
If changes are made to Lifesteal to reduce the effectiveness of self-healing and increase reliance upon GF and DC classes and the typical 'Tank and Healer' roles, the need to employ NPCs that can kill a geared GF with maximum Damage Resistance and over 50k HP would not be necessary, PVP would become more balanced, players would not have the same ease of soloing high end content and every class would be better off.
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COMMENTS:
LINKS:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?773831-Rise-of-Tiamat-Preview-Patch-Notes-NW-35-20141001a-2
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?774321-Great-Concern-About-Balance
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?779221-Balance-changes-on-the-Preview-Shard
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?775281-New-Divine-Cleric-buffs-and-GF-damage
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?772161-GF-Class-Advocate-Feedback
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?775851-Feedback-PVE-and-Life-Steal
1 run 10-20 kills so agan i say its total usless even with those buffs .
But i realy like your last comment :
+1 awesome feedback .
Next week suggestion :to change those offhand bonuses to usefull features.
Cuz exept one all are terrible.
Few ideas:
Guarded Assault : now also mark your affected attacker .
Combat Superiority : now give you 5 % more crit chance.
Steel Defense : now give you 2 sec more immunity.
Steel Blitz: increase the chance to 5%
Thanks buddy!
I try and listen to what everyone has to say and I will always do my best to ensure your perspective and that of others is included each week, even if it might not be something I agree with!
Your opinion and feedback and that of everyone else is important, valued and is something I need to pass on to the Development Team.
Awesome work on the continued feedback and I hope you and everyone keeps it coming!
Edit: btw, I did include your specific feedback too just in case you wondered
I think you're making a good point we can discuss for this next weekly report buddy.
So...
For discussion over this next week, perhaps you guys would be able to consider these questions and provide me with your perspective:
Let me know!
DCs have some features that support their buffing role for allies. I could see Trample being improved into a party buff rather than a personal one, for GFs that like that role.
Neverwinter Census 2017
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