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How could things have come to such a pass?

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  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    I'm not claiming anything ,it's a fact , you know the emergency maintenance they had earlier this week? what do you think that was for? also check reddit , scroll down a little on the first page.

    I can attest to this as well. People were raving about it in certain chats along with links to the video.
  • khimera906khimera906 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 898 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    When you ask Cryptic to remove the ZAX cap you ask for your AD to become worthless. Some of you think you have enough AD to buy Zen, but believe me, you won't have enough AD for long. The people that sell Zen will keep increasing the prices, and you will soon be put in the position where you won't be able to afford Zen. You think the Zen sellers will stop at 1000AD per Zen, or 10000AD? No, they won't because there's no end to greed. It's part of human nature. All I can say is that you guys must be out of your mind if you think removing the cap will solve anything.
    I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
  • anharmonanharmon Member Posts: 175
    edited August 2014
    khimera906 wrote: »
    When you ask Cryptic to remove the ZAX cap you ask for your AD to become worthless. Some of you think you have enough AD to buy Zen, but believe me, you won't have enough AD for long. The people that sell Zen will keep increasing the prices, and you will soon be put in the position where you won't be able to afford Zen. You think the Zen sellers will stop at 1000AD per Zen, or 10000AD? No, they won't because there's no end to greed. It's part of human nature. All I can say is that you guys must be out of your mind if you think removing the cap will solve anything.

    They'll sell for as high as they can get people to buy. If they sell for 10000 AD/Zen, not very many people can/will buy that. So they'll lower the price, or just not sell.

    Raising the cap will just raise the value at which AD:Zen ratio stabilizes. Which is the basic argument: AD/Zen is too low right now, Zen is more valuable, so the cap should be raised.
  • cbrowne0329cbrowne0329 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 293 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I'm not selling my Zen for in game money, so others can play for free. I'm still think it's insane that the whole thing lasted this long.

    I've never in any other game sold stuff I buy with real money to random people. It's just weird. I've gifted stuff to friends and guildies in other games, but that's about it.

    AND if I was going to sell Zen for in game money to random people, it would be higher that it is even now.
  • linaduinlinaduin Member Posts: 187 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I'm not selling my Zen for in game money, so others can play for free. I'm still think it's insane that the whole thing lasted this long.

    I've never in any other game sold stuff I buy with real money to random people. It's just weird. I've gifted stuff to friends and guildies in other games, but that's about it.

    AND if I was going to sell Zen for in game money to random people, it would be higher that it is even now.

    I tend to agree with this.

    But the same exchange system seems to work fine in STO. I don't play STO. Does anyone who does know what's 'right' in STO that's 'wrong' in Neverwinter? How can the same company generate such different outcomes from two games with such (apparently) similar systems?
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    linaduin wrote: »
    I tend to agree with this.

    But the same exchange system seems to work fine in STO. I don't play STO. Does anyone who does know what's 'right' in STO that's 'wrong' in Neverwinter? How can the same company generate such different outcomes from two games with such (apparently) similar systems?

    Too many exploits, and a playerbase that is used to finding "loopholes" because of pnp. (by loopholes I mean creative thinking that allows too much power, what else do you call Pun-Pun.)
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I'm not selling my Zen for in game money, so others can play for free. I'm still think it's insane that the whole thing lasted this long.

    I've never in any other game sold stuff I buy with real money to random people. It's just weird. I've gifted stuff to friends and guildies in other games, but that's about it.
    Then you should probably avoid games that use the Free to Play model, as the clue is in the model name. Every FTP game includes a system where stuff bought in the cash shop can be sold for in-game 'free' currency, and in games that combing Subscription and FTP elements a Subscriber will typically receive a regular 'stipend' of in-game currency as part of their Sub.
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    linaduin wrote: »
    I tend to agree with this.

    But the same exchange system seems to work fine in STO. I don't play STO. Does anyone who does know what's 'right' in STO that's 'wrong' in Neverwinter? How can the same company generate such different outcomes from two games with such (apparently) similar systems?
    I think STO appeals to a different kind of playerbase who are less interested in min-maxing/exploiting. Pretty much everyone in that game is a Star Trek fan and playing more for the experience than to 'win'.
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • arimikamiarimikami Member Posts: 439 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    linaduin wrote: »
    I tend to agree with this.

    But the same exchange system seems to work fine in STO. I don't play STO. Does anyone who does know what's 'right' in STO that's 'wrong' in Neverwinter? How can the same company generate such different outcomes from two games with such (apparently) similar systems?

    The real simple answer to this is that STO didn't have to deal with the number of exploits that are going on in NW that generate vast amounts of AD at an accelerated rate. It also doesn't have things like leadership that generate AD for you even when you're not playing.
  • tardagaintardagain Member Posts: 47
    edited August 2014
    It may be time to pack up the ZAX and close it down for good. Offer some critical items that are zen-only right now at the wondrous bazaar (coal wards, respecs, etc) for an appropriately expensive cost in ADs and just accept that it was a nice experiment, but there are too many successful cheaters and exploiters to keep the charade up.

    Probably should have never had something like the ZAX to begin with. Probably should have never made certain items zen-only. Right now PE is filled with spammers offering 1 million ADs for 5 bucks (or less). The ZAX (at max exchange rate) charges $20 for the same amount of ADs. So a little patience and fewer scruples turns your 5 bucks into 20 bucks worth of stuff after ZAXing. People are obviously doing this ---> backlog.

    It's been a good run for a while, but maybe time to take Ole Yeller out back.
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    tardagain wrote: »
    It may be time to pack up the ZAX and close it down for good. Offer some critical items that are zen-only right now at the wondrous bazaar (coal wards, respecs, etc) for an appropriately expensive cost in ADs and just accept that it was a nice experiment, but there are too many successful cheaters and exploiters to keep the charade up.

    Probably should have never had something like the ZAX to begin with. Probably should have never made certain items zen-only. Right now PE is filled with spammers offering 1 million ADs for 5 bucks (or less). The ZAX (at max exchange rate) charges $20 for the same amount of ADs. So a little patience and fewer scruples turns your 5 bucks into 20 bucks worth of stuff after ZAXing. People are obviously doing this ---> backlog.

    It's been a good run for a while, but maybe time to take Ole Yeller out back.
    And what would you put in it's place? Something has to go in it's place or this is no longer a free to play game.
  • tardagaintardagain Member Posts: 47
    edited August 2014
    Game stays F2P because there's no sub fee.

    Like I said, make some items that are currently zen-only (coal wards, respecs, etc) also available at the wondrous bazaar for ADs. That way you can control the prices a little. Certain items in this game have wreaked havoc with the entire economy.

    Zen should probably be reserved for cosmetics and drop-enhancement kind of stuff so people can pay real money to not have to grind. Of course you should also be able to straight-up buy ADs with zen as well... available from in game sellers and not other players. Too many cheaters have ruined what could have been a nice little laissez-faire marketplace.
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    tardagain wrote: »
    Game stays F2P because there's no sub fee.

    Like I said, make some items that are currently zen-only (coal wards, respecs, etc) also available at the wondrous bazaar for ADs. That way you can control the prices a little. Certain items in this game have wreaked havoc with the entire economy.

    Zen should probably be reserved for cosmetics and drop-enhancement kind of stuff so people can pay real money to not have to grind. Of course you should also be able to straight-up buy ADs with zen as well... available from in game sellers and not other players. Too many cheaters have ruined what could have been a nice little laissez-faire marketplace.
    Except that isn't the standard model of what a f2p game is and PWE would rightly get raked over the public relations coals for not having a method no matter how grindy to earn cash shop money in game.
  • tardagaintardagain Member Posts: 47
    edited August 2014
    I'm not so sure about that. Take SWTOR, for example... their cash shop currency is called Cartel coins, which you use real money to buy. Most everything in the game is purchasable with ingame earnable "credits" in one way or another, either thru NPC vendors or their version of the AH.

    Anyway, they have no economy problems like this game mostly due to the fact that you CANNOT exchange ingame credits for cartel coins. I always thought that THIS was the standard F2P model... two different currencies, one real-money based and one ingame-based. The real money-based stuff is cosmetic or enhancement stuff that you can sell on AH for ingame currency, but there is no reverse possible.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but seems like it makes more sense that way.
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    tardagain wrote: »
    I'm not so sure about that. Take SWTOR, for example... their cash shop currency is called Cartel coins, which you use real money to buy. Most everything in the game is purchasable with ingame earnable "credits" in one way or another, either thru NPC vendors or their version of the AH.

    Anyway, they have no economy problems like this game mostly due to the fact that you CANNOT exchange ingame credits for cartel coins. I always thought that THIS was the standard F2P model... two different currencies, one real-money based and one ingame-based. The real money-based stuff is cosmetic or enhancement stuff that you can sell on AH for ingame currency, but there is no reverse possible.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but seems like it makes more sense that way.
    SWTOR is not FTP. It's a hybrid supported by both FTP and subscription. As such it is designed to make subscription more attractive than free play and part of that is to isolate the cash shop and give cash shop currency to subscribers every month as part of their sub.

    Neverwinter is full FTP and was - I think - the first game to adopt this model. There are no subscribers to make feel special so player retention has to focus on other factors. Offering access to the cash shop via in-game currency is a part of that.
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    tardagain wrote: »
    I'm not so sure about that. Take SWTOR, for example... their cash shop currency is called Cartel coins, which you use real money to buy. Most everything in the game is purchasable with ingame earnable "credits" in one way or another, either thru NPC vendors or their version of the AH.

    Anyway, they have no economy problems like this game mostly due to the fact that you CANNOT exchange ingame credits for cartel coins. I always thought that THIS was the standard F2P model... two different currencies, one real-money based and one ingame-based. The real money-based stuff is cosmetic or enhancement stuff that you can sell on AH for ingame currency, but there is no reverse possible.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but seems like it makes more sense that way.
    I don't have first hand knowledge of SWTOR as I only played a little while in it's p2p days. So the f2p models I know of are DDO, LotRO, and Rift. The method varies and doesn't always involve a currency being converted to cash shop money. Sometimes it's a matter of beating the content on the hardest difficulty earns you points slowly for the cash shop. But from my experience there is always a method of one sort of another.
  • tardagaintardagain Member Posts: 47
    edited August 2014
    Neverwinter is full FTP and was - I think - the first game to adopt this model. There are no subscribers to make feel special so player retention has to focus on other factors. Offering access to the cash shop via in-game currency is a part of that.

    Ah, that makes sense. But I can't help but think that this whole thing has kinda backfired on Cryptic. Like I said, a nice experiment, but Frankenstein's Monster is pissed off and trashing the village now -- get your torch and pitchfork. :)
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    tardagain wrote: »
    Ah, that makes sense. But I can't help but think that this whole thing has kinda backfired on Cryptic. Like I said, a nice experiment, but Frankenstein's Monster is pissed off and trashing the village now -- get your torch and pitchfork. :)

    Heh, my sympathies always lied with the monster and I wanted to go after the villagers.
  • mconosrepmconosrep Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    tardagain wrote: »
    Ah, that makes sense. But I can't help but think that this whole thing has kinda backfired on Cryptic. Like I said, a nice experiment, but Frankenstein's Monster is pissed off and trashing the village now -- get your torch and pitchfork. :)

    It is a decent system but ONLY if the amount of excess AD generation isn't too great, which as events have shown, Cryptic have spectacularly failed to do,
  • tardagaintardagain Member Posts: 47
    edited August 2014
    charononus wrote: »
    Heh, my sympathies always lied with the monster and I wanted to go after the villagers.

    LOL but what if it was YOUR house he was trashing? :)

    I think it's safe to say that we all have a vested interest in having a healthy game economy. I think that maybe some of us just disagree with how we can go about getting one while causing the least amount of grief to the playerbase. It's a tricky thing, to be sure.
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    tardagain wrote: »
    Ah, that makes sense. But I can't help but think that this whole thing has kinda backfired on Cryptic. Like I said, a nice experiment, but Frankenstein's Monster is pissed off and trashing the village now -- get your torch and pitchfork. :)
    The thing is that an almost identical system works in STO just fine. I don't imagine that Cryptic considered the Zax an experiment at all since they had made it work in STO. This leads me to believe that the problems are being caused by the players rather than the system.

    The Zax also earns Cryptic real money as all the Zen traded on it has to be bought. Some people will drop real cash and trade it for in-game currency to avoid the grind, which is why it's financially important to have some items only available for AD and some only available for Zen with a mechanism for exchanging the two.
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    tardagain wrote: »
    I think it's safe to say that we all have a vested interest in having a healthy game economy. I think that maybe some of us just disagree with how we can go about getting one while causing the least amount of grief to the playerbase. It's a tricky thing, to be sure.

    This is the truth of it. I think everyone here wants the game to succeed and the economy is a big part of that.
  • vasdamasvasdamas Member Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Recently I've notice that there are very few aussie time zone players left :(
  • tardagaintardagain Member Posts: 47
    edited August 2014
    The Zax also earns Cryptic real money as all the Zen traded on it has to be bought. Some people will drop real cash and trade it for in-game currency to avoid the grind, which is why it's financially important to have some items only available for AD and some only available for Zen with a mechanism for exchanging the two.

    See? That looks so good on paper! How could it fail? :)

    I totally agree that it was the cheaters that did this. That was in my first post a page back. There is not really a realistically reliable way to get rid of them.

    But right now, the ZAX makes possible that feedback loop I described where you can keep multiplying value over and over by using AD for zen, get zen items, sell for profit on AH, exchange for even more zen, rinse and repeat. The only thing even slowing you down is the backlog because so many people are exploiting it. To break the chain, either the ZAX goes or the AH goes. Otherwise this is REALLY tricky to fix. Maybe too tricky. Caps wont really help ---> just use more and more characters on more and more accounts that are free to create.

    Its kinda depressing, actually.
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    tardagain wrote: »
    But right now, the ZAX makes possible that feedback loop I described where you can keep multiplying value over and over by using AD for zen, get zen items, sell for profit on AH, exchange for even more zen, rinse and repeat. The only thing even slowing you down is the backlog because so many people are exploiting it. To break the chain, either the ZAX goes or the AH goes. Otherwise this is REALLY tricky to fix. Maybe too tricky. Caps wont really help ---> just use more and more characters on more and more accounts that are free to create.

    Its kinda depressing, actually.
    One way might be to cap the maximum AD price of Zen store items on the AH at their Zen cost times the current Zax conversion rate. I have no idea how tricky that might be but it would close the feedback loop.

    A simpler solution would be to just make all items bought from the Zen store BOA. There's no real reason to allow them to be sold on the AH as anyone who wants to buy them with AD can just use the Zax to convert AD to Zen.
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • tardagaintardagain Member Posts: 47
    edited August 2014
    I like your ideas... maybe this isn't so bad after all, assuming there is the will to act on the devs' part. Making AH caps (not ZAX caps) really DOES "fix" it, doesn't it? A little "business regulation" can go a long way. :)
  • linaduinlinaduin Member Posts: 187 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    One way might be to cap the maximum AD price of Zen store items on the AH at their Zen cost times the current Zax conversion rate. I have no idea how tricky that might be but it would close the feedback loop.

    A simpler solution would be to just make all items bought from the Zen store BOA. There's no real reason to allow them to be sold on the AH as anyone who wants to buy them with AD can just use the Zax to convert AD to Zen.

    The first idea makes sense to me - if you're going to regulate one market then you need to regulate the other as well.

    But the second doesn't solve the problem that AD is worthless and no-one will exchange ZEN for it?
  • mircalla83mircalla83 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 36
    edited August 2014
    The thing in STO is, compared to NW:
    STO's Auction house (They call it 'Exchange') runs ONLY on a not timegated currency (theirs is called Dilithium).
    Their daily Refine limit is at 8k units, with, for veteran subscribers and people in a fleet with enough progress in the fleet advancement system, up to 10k a day per character.
    Dilithium is used for:
    -Dilithium Exchange (Their version of the ZAX)
    -Reputation Projects that give gear (Think Lesser Feyblessing/Xvim Ring, only that you craft the WHOLE Set as a series of Reputation projects, no profession with new Itemshop assets needed)
    -Reputation and Fleet Gear Stores (You basically only gear yourself up via these at some point, unless you want very specific weaponry from lockboxes)
    -Fleet Advancement System


    In case of the Reputation Gear, that is usually at around 10-12k Dilithium per Item, while Fleet Stuff also requires 'Fleet Provisions' and Fleet Credit, the Provisions provided by Fleet Advancement System projects that are done by the whole fleet, and require some Dilithium, the Credits being paid out by the system for contributing to the Fleet Advancement System.

    So basically, outside of the Dilithium Exchange, the use for Dilithium is priced at points hardlocked by the game. It has, outside of the Exchange, NO direct contact with the normal Economy, aka 'Auction House'. It is also very easy to get the daily 8-10k Dilithium each day - play a foundry, gain about 2.4k. Do some other dailies, some more boring, some less, gain between 400 and 1200 Dilithium. Do 3-4 '3 Silo' victories in the 'Voth Ground Battlezone' (Maxlevel Content), get 30k, for 3 zonewide victories where you actively participate. In fact, 1 victory where you actually help with more than just the final phase, and actually help capture 4-5 segments of the zone, you get enough to fill about 1.3 days of refining.
    So GETTING the Raw Dilithium is supereasy, even more so than here in fact. The Refine Gate is tighter. Also, since you cannot trade it via Auction House, getting it on more than 1 Account is pretty much useless, only way you can transfer is using the 'Foundry Tipping' exploit there.
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    linaduin wrote: »
    The first idea makes sense to me - if you're going to regulate one market then you need to regulate the other as well.

    But the second doesn't solve the problem that AD is worthless and no-one will exchange ZEN for it?
    AD isn't worthless. At the moment it's been heavily devalued by exploits causing hyperinflation on the AH but that if issue is addressed and prices stabilise back at something close to where they were before the spike then there are plenty of things to spend AD on that you can't get with Zen. And there will always be people too impatient to generate the AD they want by grinding it for free.
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • shurato2099shurato2099 Member Posts: 171 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    The thing is that an almost identical system works in STO just fine. I don't imagine that Cryptic considered the Zax an experiment at all since they had made it work in STO. This leads me to believe that the problems are being caused by the players rather than the system.

    The Zax also earns Cryptic real money as all the Zen traded on it has to be bought. Some people will drop real cash and trade it for in-game currency to avoid the grind, which is why it's financially important to have some items only available for AD and some only available for Zen with a mechanism for exchanging the two.

    Part of that would be the fact that Astral Diamonds play a different role in Neverwinter than Dilithium does in STO.

    -The NW Auction House run on AD, the STO Exchange runs on Energy Credits. While there is inflation, it isn't directly tied to their ZAX market.
    -You can re-sell more of the NW z-store items than you can from the STO equivalent.
    -Neverwinter's AD sinks don't work very well, many of them being priced so high that people don't even bother with them.
    -STO has Dilithium sinks everywhere, perhaps even too many of them, which helps to flush it out of the system quickly.
    -STO has fewer exploitable means of getting Dilithium than Neverwinter has for AD and a lower daily conversion cap, preventing market gluts.
    -STO is a "freemium" model rather than straight f2p so Zen sales aren't their only source of revenue.

    The ZAX is the same system between the two games, but the surrounding economy is different.
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