Having the Tank, DPS, Healer is needed. People need to have a role. Everyone should not just be dps. Everyone doing dps is just bland. There needs to be times every class is needed. A tank to stop the damage that would kill anyone besides a tank, a healer to heal people from some unavoidable damage, and of course the dps so things do not take forever. If not you have situations where stacking classes is the best way to go and people are left out. And if thats what people want why not only have one class for the game... because people deep down really want to be different in some way.
Having the Tank, DPS, Healer is needed. People need to have a role. Everyone should not just be dps. Everyone doing dps is just bland. There needs to be times every class is needed. A tank to stop the damage that would kill anyone besides a tank, a healer to heal people from some unavoidable damage, and of course the dps so things do not take forever. If not you have situations where stacking classes is the best way to go and people are left out. And if thats what people want why not only have one class for the game... because people deep down really want to be different in some way.
I'd say trinity systems are more boring. The reason being is if the tank does their job, and the healer can keep the tank alive, the dps can sit back and just plink away with no real danger. (AoE effects not withstanding)
I'd say trinity systems are more boring. The reason being is if the tank does their job, and the healer can keep the tank alive, the dps can sit back and just plink away with no real danger. (AoE effects not withstanding)
There's almost no danger now as a CW or GWF because of CC and lifesteal.
Besides that, when every character is their own tank and healer, it really cuts out interdependency and teamwork, the things that make MMOs fun.
The only thing more boring is playing one of the other 4 classes because you can't even get into a group so you can't even play the content with any frequency.
Games that involve dungeons, or have vast amount of PvE, tend to have short life spans, when there is no role individuality. In those older games, that still to this day retains the strong trinity sense of game play, have decades of forums post by dedicated clerics, tanks, and all in between on how to master their game play strategy.
This game is just a year old, and our class forums is full of how to out gear/boon/feat the content.
GW2, PvE flopped in just a year as well, when they prided themselves in bringing a new level of game play. essentially meaning everyone brought something equally to the table, and essentially no one relied on no one else but themselves.
The way the game is going you're taking away the sense of pride people develop in long term play of their particular class. When everyone can bring the same to the table, where is any class individuality, and the personality behind them? Which is fine, just dont expect a long lifespan of the game.
Just this ^, you can already see in the forums the discontent of PvE.
I'd say trinity systems are more boring. The reason being is if the tank does their job, and the healer can keep the tank alive, the dps can sit back and just plink away with no real danger. (AoE effects not withstanding)
Well, let's make the PvE content boring with 6 desirable classes instead of 2 .
Nah, joke, how can this be boring?, why there should be no danger?, I've had pretty fun times in other games going in a party to a dungeon were even insane Tanks could die, there is were each person have his role, Tank = Tank, Healer = Heal, Buffs and Debuffs, DPS = Bring down enemies and bosses as fast as they can, not like here, where you can discard 2/3 of the classes.
The only problem is (and I won't stop saying it) the PvE content is too easy and extremely monotonous.
Nah, joke, how can this be boring?, why there should be no danger?, I've had pretty fun times in other games going in a party to a dungeon were even insane Tanks could die, there is were each person have his role, Tank = Tank, Healer = Heal, Buffs and Debuffs, DPS = Bring down enemies and bosses as fast as they can, not like here, where you can discard 2/3 of the classes.
Because assuming they're geared for it, the tank goes and holds threat on a group of mobs. He stands in one place to do it. His survival is based 100% at this point on the healer. If the healer goes afk it's a wipe. If the tank doesn't do his job it's a wipe. The dps stand there clicking a preset rotation and as long as other people do their job they don't take damage (mostly). Success or failure is down to the tank or healer and dps are irrelevant. If the tank can hold aggro and the healer pays attention at all you will win. Action combat mmo's like NW don't have a trinity and require constant movement for the most part to avoid aoes, attacks, etc. Everyone has to pay attention. A good bot could be a good dps in trinity games.
I'd say trinity systems are more boring. The reason being is if the tank does their job, and the healer can keep the tank alive, the dps can sit back and just plink away with no real danger. (AoE effects not withstanding)
That isn't much different from what we have now. CW/GWF keep everything grouped and everything falls over. Only time it changes is when there's a boss fight and it becomes AoE or kite and avoid red.
Right now there is no reason to manage threat. No reason to need a healer. Dungeons are mostly a walk through at this point. Most bosses are just a kite adds/burn boss.
This game's dungeon system has no depth. Trinity systems bring much more depth to what can be done in the fight.
And I've never played an MMO where you were never in danger of pulling threat. If you are, then that's bad design.
Because assuming they're geared for it, the tank goes and holds threat on a group of mobs. He stands in one place to do it. His survival is based 100% at this point on the healer. If the healer goes afk it's a wipe. If the tank doesn't do his job it's a wipe. The dps stand there clicking a preset rotation and as long as other people do their job they don't take damage (mostly). Success or failure is down to the tank or healer and dps are irrelevant. If the tank can hold aggro and the healer pays attention at all you will win. Action combat mmo's like NW don't have a trinity and require constant movement for the most part to avoid aoes, attacks, etc. Everyone has to pay attention. A good bot could be a good dps in trinity games.
No one is saying remove the AOE the people need to avoid. Just add mechanics that require a healer and a tank. It would not require alot. Just a a few more mobs that were immune to cc and hit much harder. Add to a few bosses a very large single target hit that would require a tank. Then increase tank survivability. You still have the active play style you have now by avoiding aoe and doing some cc, but you also would need the undesireable classes atm. Having more than 2 different classes needed is a good thing, not bad.
I don't care which way they want to go, but at least pick a way. Show us a direction. If they want to make group content viable to all characters, that's fine, but every class needs to be roughly equal in terms of functionality.
If they want group content to require a tank and healer (which I prefer), then they need to re-design the dungeon mechanics to ensure that.
The fact of the matter is that the game is neither. And you can argue all day long which is better, but until they pick one, certain class stacking in dungeon run won't change one bit.
and we do want to reinforce that at his core the Guardian Fighter is NOT a DPS class.
Each class is suppose to have its role now, just it is not working and the content does not support what they want. It seems mod 4 is trying to fix this, although I'm not certain it will work unless some of the obvious flaws are fixed.
But apparently they have picked which way they want to go.
Each class is suppose to have its role now, just it is not working and the content does not support what they want. It seems mod 4 is trying to fix this, although I'm not certain it will work unless some of the obvious flaws are fixed.
lol i wish he would come out and say what a GWF actually is how about they reinforce their role to striker instead of omg facetank everything and until that happens thats why GF's are a dead class as a tank because the counter part to guardians can do it better.
GWF have 4x the defense a plate wearing "tank" has it makes no sense
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
edited July 2014
It is really strange to see people that say that they want the trinity in Neverwinter. It is already there and it is obviously ineffective and messes things up. Also why talk about removing the healers and the tanks - it is the pure DPS role that should be removed.
It is really strange to see people that say that they want the trinity in Neverwinter. It is already there and it is obviously ineffective and messes things up. Also why talk about removing the healers and the tanks - it is the pure DPS role that should be removed.
Huh?
Sorry but I don't have a clue what you meant there. The trinity is not enforced in neverwinter because there is no need for tanks, sometimes a need for kiters but not tanks. There is no need for healers as lifesteal, regen, and potions can get you thru any content. As for removing dps, I really don't understand how that would do anything to make things better. I think you put things badly as what you typed makes zero sense how you typed it.
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epclipseingmoonMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It is really strange to see people that say that they want the trinity in Neverwinter. It is already there and it is obviously ineffective and messes things up. Also why talk about removing the healers and the tanks - it is the pure DPS role that should be removed.
I 100% agree we need some kinds of ajustments to make everyone needed. Many people play a class because it matches their style. Why should we all be made to play this trinity when we want to play other roles even if they are not needed...
I wish we had a rework of this for cws and gwfs but nooo most of the nerfs have been revoked... sad days....
Note the GF's have to be made to be able to protect better... aoes can hurt anyone forget wasting knights valor. That needs to be reworked and become a class feature in order to makes us GF players usefull...
Sorry but I don't have a clue what you meant there. The trinity is not enforced in neverwinter because there is no need for tanks, sometimes a need for kiters but not tanks. There is no need for healers as lifesteal, regen, and potions can get you thru any content. As for removing dps, I really don't understand how that would do anything to make things better. I think you put things badly as what you typed makes zero sense how you typed it.
I've already explained it but it seems I will have to do it again.
Currently Neverwinter has a built-in trinity - GFs are clearly tanks, DCs are clearly healers and all the other classes are DPS. This is reflected in the dungeon grouping policies.
The reason it is not working is because there are DPS classes with high utility that can take over the standard trinity roles and as an action game - there are a lot of ways to avoid taking damage. The GWF is effectively both a tank and a DPS and the Control Wizard is both a controller and a DPS, reducing the damage the enemy can dish out.
In order to make the GF and the DC desirable in parties again it stands to reason you raise their DPS in order to be an alternative to what the GWF and the CW can do. To make the other DPS classes desirable again you should add more utility to them.
This effectively eliminates the DPS disparity, removing the DPS role as well. Everybody will be either tank, healer, controller or buffer/debuffer. There will be healthy character interaction - the tank will serve the same role as in the trinity. The healer will also serve the same roll as in the trinity. The other classes will be contributing in other ways to the party - not just pew-pew from behind.
With pure DPS role gone this will open up more variety of builds as well. There will be more focus on how exactly you deal your damage, rather than how much damage you deal, and on what else you can do at the same time.
In the end you have more flexible party composition, more builds available, more interesting mechanics and greater party interaction. This will require some work on certain dungeons in order to make them harder and replace some of the gangs of mobs with something a little more interesting(there are that much mobs so that both the tank and the controller would have something to do, fewer but stronger mobs with better abilities would to a better job with this).
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epclipseingmoonMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
I'm glad you see the problem here elve rather than many of the others who enforce this trinity...
I've already explained it but it seems I will have to do it again.
Currently Neverwinter has a built-in trinity - GFs are clearly tanks, DCs are clearly healers and all the other classes are DPS. This is reflected in the dungeon grouping policies.
The reason it is not working is because there are DPS classes with high utility that can take over the standard trinity roles and as an action game - there are a lot of ways to avoid taking damage. The GWF is effectively both a tank and a DPS and the Control Wizard is both a controller and a DPS, reducing the damage the enemy can dish out.
In order to make the GF and the DC desirable in parties again it stands to reason you raise their DPS in order to be an alternative to what the GWF and the CW can do. To make the other DPS classes desirable again you should add more utility to them.
This effectively eliminates the DPS disparity, removing the DPS role as well. Everybody will be either tank, healer, controller or buffer/debuffer. There will be healthy character interaction - the tank will serve the same role as in the trinity. The healer will also serve the same roll as in the trinity. The other classes will be contributing in other ways to the party - not just pew-pew from behind.
With pure DPS role gone this will open up more variety of builds as well. There will be more focus on how exactly you deal your damage, rather than how much damage you deal, and on what else you can do at the same time.
In the end you have more flexible party composition, more builds available, more interesting mechanics and greater party interaction. This will require some work on certain dungeons in order to make them harder and replace some of the gangs of mobs with something a little more interesting(there are that much mobs so that both the tank and the controller would have something to do, fewer but stronger mobs with better abilities would to a better job with this).
Ok got what you meant now. That previous post it made it sound like you wanted to nerf all dps down to GF levels or something.
I've already explained it but it seems I will have to do it again.
Currently Neverwinter has a built-in trinity - GFs are clearly tanks, DCs are clearly healers and all the other classes are DPS. This is reflected in the dungeon grouping policies.
The reason it is not working is because there are DPS classes with high utility that can take over the standard trinity roles and as an action game - there are a lot of ways to avoid taking damage. The GWF is effectively both a tank and a DPS and the Control Wizard is both a controller and a DPS, reducing the damage the enemy can dish out.
In order to make the GF and the DC desirable in parties again it stands to reason you raise their DPS in order to be an alternative to what the GWF and the CW can do. To make the other DPS classes desirable again you should add more utility to them.
This effectively eliminates the DPS disparity, removing the DPS role as well. Everybody will be either tank, healer, controller or buffer/debuffer. There will be healthy character interaction - the tank will serve the same role as in the trinity. The healer will also serve the same roll as in the trinity. The other classes will be contributing in other ways to the party - not just pew-pew from behind.
With pure DPS role gone this will open up more variety of builds as well. There will be more focus on how exactly you deal your damage, rather than how much damage you deal, and on what else you can do at the same time.
In the end you have more flexible party composition, more builds available, more interesting mechanics and greater party interaction. This will require some work on certain dungeons in order to make them harder and replace some of the gangs of mobs with something a little more interesting(there are that much mobs so that both the tank and the controller would have something to do, fewer but stronger mobs with better abilities would to a better job with this).
The current content, and how we out weigh it in gear, and boons from post Mods, is what makes a pure DPS/H group makeup more effective. Dumbing down the DPS classes to match OLD content, is simply <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, and a step backwards. I just can't believe people are still blind to this obvious mechanic. right now we are all equivalent to lvl 30s questing at level 1 content. IWD maybe was lvl 5, so just a new mod of a joke for PvE content.
Now since we have had nothing but low level content, but yet more powerful artifacts, companions, and boons dumped into the game, yet no content to compete, we have seen nerf after nerf on key classes, namely to make them compatible with PvP balance, but on the flip side hurting any potential trinity balance. IE cleric heals, GF surviability etc.
In GS equivalent groups (IE) everyone in the group is 10-12k GS at say, ToS? The GWF isn't a DPS tanking dungeon god, and the CW can be wiped in a mere second if taken over. in fact, the GWF has to dumb down over half his DPS potential and gear towards surviving, another words, there are no glass cannon GWFs in that gear bracket, face rolling those dungeons.
Of course we never see this, because nine times out of ten, when a group of people that are within equivalent GS for their content they tend to try zurging it, never really trying to adapt any group formation, and when they fail the few remaining simply wait for bigger GSed players to que in, or call guild mates to come finish the dungeon off for them. Of course, the most effective? a GWF or CW that out gears it.... while the CW, or the GWF that don't out gear it follows in tow.
In order to make the GF and the DC desirable in parties again it stands to reason you raise their DPS in order to be an alternative to what the GWF and the CW can do. To make the other DPS classes desirable again you should add more utility to them.
It's probably the only way to make classes more desirable since they're unlikely to change the content. However I strongly disagree that it will promote healthy character interaction.
When every class is their own tank, healer and dps, it doesn't do much for character interaction.
Keep in mind that because of how incredibly powerful lifesteal is in this game, increasing DPS inherently increases your healing and tanking capabilities.
There's no opportunity to "save" your fellow party members when they're never under any real danger, not to mention DCs don't even have a burst heal and I don't think GFs even have a hard taunt until mod4.
So increasing DPS for utility classes and utility for dps classes (other than GWF and CW who already have tons of utility) is probably the only way to help all classes be wanted, but dungeons are still going to be a snooze fest of stacking mobs and dpsing them down without any sense of danger.
It's probably the only way to make classes more desirable since they're unlikely to change the content. However I strongly disagree that it will promote healthy character interaction.
When every class is their own tank, healer and dps, it doesn't do much for character interaction.
Keep in mind that because of how incredibly powerful lifesteal is in this game, increasing DPS inherently increases your healing and tanking capabilities.
There's no opportunity to "save" your fellow party members when they're never under any real danger, not to mention DCs don't even have a burst heal and I don't think GFs even have a hard taunt until mod4.
So increasing DPS for utility classes and utility for dps classes (other than GWF and CW who already have tons of utility) is probably the only way to help all classes be wanted, but dungeons are still going to be a snooze fest of stacking mobs and dpsing them down without any sense of danger.
0o - just to be clear my name is in the quote, but not my words lol...
And i 1000000% agree, Lifesteal is a broken mechenic that shouldn't be in a game such as this one. I have said it numerous times, if they had taken LS away from the GWF, they would be far more balanced in PvE, and their tank-ability cut in half, even more for the glass cannons.
Right now I am a pure dps build, only 450ish LS, (unintentional) and use none of the boons for self healing. at 16kGS (would be 17.5k with mainstream gears) one mistake and I could get my rear handed over to me in t1/2 content.
GF needs better and longer threat holders and enough survivability to do it.
Why...?, I mean, any GWF/CW +16K is gonna explode things and destroy mobs in 3 seconds... if not, there is SW that seems will be king of DPS, so the only thing I will do with my GF is taunt and Tank the trash mobs that don't need to be Tanked for 2 seconds?, great... a CW can control mobs pretty good and will deal decent DPS even im Mod 4, why should my GF be stuck dealing 1/3 Damage of CW/GWF/HR and now SW?.
Maybe your suggestions are good for a 12K party trying to do MC or CN, but after a point there is no need for a GF at all, so if they don't add content to be Tanked even for a 15K GS party there won't be a space for a GF in the "High End" content... I'm not saying that they should give us a lot of DPS, but at least something to not be dead weight for higher GS parties.
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epclipseingmoonMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
Knights Valor must be reworked for the GF to not be dead weight.
make it a class feature so its always active and not a stupid encounter. It needs to work something like the way it works now. 50% of the damage anyone in the party gets is given to the tank instead. But they should lower the damage a GF gets from it to like 20% and still take the 50% from all party members.
Lets face it tanks may be able to pull mobs together but aoes can still hurt the party so its a must this is not an encounter rather an active feature that never goes on cd. If you never had to worry about useing pots that would maybe justify takeing us...
The game needs an expansion, not a module. T3's. Maybe more levels. And change the dung content. No matter what you do now, its too late for up thru mod3. Content is overgeared, and designed that tanking/healing is unneeded anyways.
Adding more threat is a ridiculous idea. Dead mobs and mobs that are controlled need no threat. And no matter how much agro you have, you can't tank in this game. Look at VT. Can you taunt the hands? MC Hands? CN Hands. What about all the other aoe's? Who cares who has "agro". The mob's direct hit is nothing, or its a huge red line on the screen.
You can fix this in an xpansion. Control immune mobs that have really high damage direct attacks. Right there, that would make healing/tanking more necessary. I don't want a trinity either, but they have already said that they the GF is not a dps class, and they are giving it more threat and trying to make it tankier. So fine, then make something that needs a tank. If it doesnt need a tank, then there is no reason to have one, in fact you are worse off with it.
And I hate to say it, because I dont agree with it, but if you want GF to be a tank, you have to nerf unstoppable and GWF deflect. I play both, and like I say i think its bad, but if you want GF to be a tank, unstoppable needs a bigger nerf. Unstoppable + lifesteal + damage makes it ridiculous to bring a GF if you look at it from a performance basis.
The game needs an expansion, not a module. T3's. Maybe more levels. And change the dung content. No matter what you do now, its too late for up thru mod3. Content is overgeared, and designed that tanking/healing is unneeded anyways.
Adding more threat is a ridiculous idea. Dead mobs and mobs that are controlled need no threat. And no matter how much agro you have, you can't tank in this game. Look at VT. Can you taunt the hands? MC Hands? CN Hands. What about all the other aoe's? Who cares who has "agro". The mob's direct hit is nothing, or its a huge red line on the screen.
You can fix this in an xpansion. Control immune mobs that have really high damage direct attacks. Right there, that would make healing/tanking more necessary. I don't want a trinity either, but they have already said that they the GF is not a dps class, and they are giving it more threat and trying to make it tankier. So fine, then make something that needs a tank. If it doesnt need a tank, then there is no reason to have one, in fact you are worse off with it.
And I hate to say it, because I dont agree with it, but if you want GF to be a tank, you have to nerf unstoppable and GWF deflect. I play both, and like I say i think its bad, but if you want GF to be a tank, unstoppable needs a bigger nerf. Unstoppable + lifesteal + damage makes it ridiculous to bring a GF if you look at it from a performance basis.
I agree, and that's why I'm saying that they should give us more DPS, instead of that, changing the dungeons and the game mechanics like Life Steal that would make this game need a Tank (even for not low GS parties) are changes that won't happen soon (or never), so why we should wait months and months too see a "LFM GF" for another dungeon rather than only for FH, or a "LFM TR", "LFM HR", etc...
At least they should give us more DPS until they fix the game mechanics and dungeons, and then everyone could obey to his role, but leaving an entire class in the speculation that they will be needed, maybe, sometime, causes more damage to the game, and it's for a lot of classes, not only GF.
I don't understand that mentality of "make this game not need the Trinity", but make the GF Tankier and make the DC give more Heal to their teammates, this is the result of trying to make the Holy Trinity obsolete, but still trying to make the differences between DPS, Tank and Healer classes, making 2/3 classes obsolete.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
I've already explained it but it seems I will have to do it again.
Currently Neverwinter has a built-in trinity - GFs are clearly tanks, DCs are clearly healers
You are utterly, utterly wrong. As things have developed, (at least at the "high end"), DCs are not primarily healers. Their primary function is now to buff and debuff. The DPS classes get enough heals through Lifesteal - in many cases they simply don't need a healer at all.
This is why many "high-end" DCs run around in High Prophet (instead of one of the T2 or T2.5 armor sets), use Plagueefire or Terror enchants (instead of Vorpal), and focus on Hallowed Ground and Divine Glow powers ... sure, they typically use Astral Shield, Astral Seal and even Sunburst, so there is some healing, but that is no longer the prime purpose.
To make DCs wanted as healers, you would have to reduce the health gained by Lifesteal a lot - probably by half.
I don't know if you guys that think SWs will be better than CWs know, but High Vizier, Oppressive Force, Steal Time and Shard of the Endless Avalanche are godly things that CWs have.
SWs will surely provide more DPS, but the CW support on control and debuffs are by far the best things for PvE. Having a CW with HV will still be mandatory.
(´･ ω ･`)
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
So increasing DPS for utility classes and utility for dps classes (other than GWF and CW who already have tons of utility) is probably the only way to help all classes be wanted, but dungeons are still going to be a snooze fest of stacking mobs and dpsing them down without any sense of danger.
Well, I said that the dungeons are going to need reworking as well and new content will be welcome.
I agree with your assessment of the problem. However, I don't agree with your solution to the problem. GFs and DCs don't need more damage. GF needs better and longer threat holders and enough survivability to do it. DC is fine in PvE. Their characteristics suit the class. GWF is getting put into place -finally- and won't be a tank and dps at the same time. While a lot of nerfs to the CW are being reconsidered, they still try to push them more into a controller role than DPS. If after these changes they make the GF better at what it is supposed to be doing, namely tanking and surviving everybody is useful again.
As where the trinity comes in.. I consider it a good thing, provided all classes actually excel at performing their roles. Hybrids should never outperform their parents anyway.
So your solution to the problem is removing what makes certain classes good in order to be as crappy as the other classes. That doesn't sound good at all. As other people have stated - the content is hard enough if done with the suggested GS equipment. What we need is more harder content and not to nerf classes to hell so that the dungeons will be harder for people who are far overgeared for them.
The game needs an expansion, not a module. T3's. Maybe more levels. And change the dung content. No matter what you do now, its too late for up thru mod3. Content is overgeared, and designed that tanking/healing is unneeded anyways.
Adding more threat is a ridiculous idea. Dead mobs and mobs that are controlled need no threat. And no matter how much agro you have, you can't tank in this game. Look at VT. Can you taunt the hands? MC Hands? CN Hands. What about all the other aoe's? Who cares who has "agro". The mob's direct hit is nothing, or its a huge red line on the screen.
You can fix this in an xpansion. Control immune mobs that have really high damage direct attacks. Right there, that would make healing/tanking more necessary. I don't want a trinity either, but they have already said that they the GF is not a dps class, and they are giving it more threat and trying to make it tankier. So fine, then make something that needs a tank. If it doesnt need a tank, then there is no reason to have one, in fact you are worse off with it.
And I hate to say it, because I dont agree with it, but if you want GF to be a tank, you have to nerf unstoppable and GWF deflect. I play both, and like I say i think its bad, but if you want GF to be a tank, unstoppable needs a bigger nerf. Unstoppable + lifesteal + damage makes it ridiculous to bring a GF if you look at it from a performance basis.
It is a common misconception that a tank should not deal damage. You know what generates more threat? More damage! And the DPS of the GF is ridiculously low. With the latest changes on Preview the devs are clearly stating that GFs are supposed to do 5 times less damage than the DPS classes which is absolutely ridiculous.
You are utterly, utterly wrong. As things have developed, (at least at the "high end"), DCs are not primarily healers. Their primary function is now to buff and debuff. The DPS classes get enough heals through Lifesteal - in many cases they simply don't need a healer at all.
This is why many "high-end" DCs run around in High Prophet (instead of one of the T2 or T2.5 armor sets), use Plagueefire or Terror enchants (instead of Vorpal), and focus on Hallowed Ground and Divine Glow powers ... sure, they typically use Astral Shield, Astral Seal and even Sunburst, so there is some healing, but that is no longer the prime purpose.
To make DCs wanted as healers, you would have to reduce the health gained by Lifesteal a lot - probably by half.
Well, they are not healers but buff/debuff because nobody wants them as healers so they have to adapt to be let in parties. Still they are designed as healers.
This game needs linear progression. Right now we have what I can call a "false diversity". There's very little difference between T1s, T2s, PvP and BI gear. Empire sets look very similar to what we have now. False diversity comes with fake feeling of "there's so many choices, I can gear up my character in so many ways," while in fact there's 1 particular set of gear considered BiS, and any other gear released in future won't have a chance to compete with that. We need something a-god-****-lot better then what we have now. We need new tier of dungeons, much harder with much better rewards. The next dungeon will be farmed for a couple of weeks, and then what? The same PvP? The same Castle Never? What will you do after getting Empire set in 2 days (exaggerating)? Game over, move on.
New content has to be significantly harder with significantly better gear, that would take a lot of time to complete.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
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I'd say trinity systems are more boring. The reason being is if the tank does their job, and the healer can keep the tank alive, the dps can sit back and just plink away with no real danger. (AoE effects not withstanding)
There's almost no danger now as a CW or GWF because of CC and lifesteal.
Besides that, when every character is their own tank and healer, it really cuts out interdependency and teamwork, the things that make MMOs fun.
The only thing more boring is playing one of the other 4 classes because you can't even get into a group so you can't even play the content with any frequency.
Just this ^, you can already see in the forums the discontent of PvE.
Well, let's make the PvE content boring with 6 desirable classes instead of 2
Nah, joke, how can this be boring?, why there should be no danger?, I've had pretty fun times in other games going in a party to a dungeon were even insane Tanks could die, there is were each person have his role, Tank = Tank, Healer = Heal, Buffs and Debuffs, DPS = Bring down enemies and bosses as fast as they can, not like here, where you can discard 2/3 of the classes.
The only problem is (and I won't stop saying it) the PvE content is too easy and extremely monotonous.
That isn't much different from what we have now. CW/GWF keep everything grouped and everything falls over. Only time it changes is when there's a boss fight and it becomes AoE or kite and avoid red.
Right now there is no reason to manage threat. No reason to need a healer. Dungeons are mostly a walk through at this point. Most bosses are just a kite adds/burn boss.
This game's dungeon system has no depth. Trinity systems bring much more depth to what can be done in the fight.
And I've never played an MMO where you were never in danger of pulling threat. If you are, then that's bad design.
No one is saying remove the AOE the people need to avoid. Just add mechanics that require a healer and a tank. It would not require alot. Just a a few more mobs that were immune to cc and hit much harder. Add to a few bosses a very large single target hit that would require a tank. Then increase tank survivability. You still have the active play style you have now by avoiding aoe and doing some cc, but you also would need the undesireable classes atm. Having more than 2 different classes needed is a good thing, not bad.
I don't care which way they want to go, but at least pick a way. Show us a direction. If they want to make group content viable to all characters, that's fine, but every class needs to be roughly equal in terms of functionality.
If they want group content to require a tank and healer (which I prefer), then they need to re-design the dungeon mechanics to ensure that.
The fact of the matter is that the game is neither. And you can argue all day long which is better, but until they pick one, certain class stacking in dungeon run won't change one bit.
Each class is suppose to have its role now, just it is not working and the content does not support what they want. It seems mod 4 is trying to fix this, although I'm not certain it will work unless some of the obvious flaws are fixed.
lol i wish he would come out and say what a GWF actually is how about they reinforce their role to striker instead of omg facetank everything and until that happens thats why GF's are a dead class as a tank because the counter part to guardians can do it better.
GWF have 4x the defense a plate wearing "tank" has it makes no sense
Huh?
Sorry but I don't have a clue what you meant there. The trinity is not enforced in neverwinter because there is no need for tanks, sometimes a need for kiters but not tanks. There is no need for healers as lifesteal, regen, and potions can get you thru any content. As for removing dps, I really don't understand how that would do anything to make things better. I think you put things badly as what you typed makes zero sense how you typed it.
I wish we had a rework of this for cws and gwfs but nooo most of the nerfs have been revoked... sad days....
Note the GF's have to be made to be able to protect better... aoes can hurt anyone forget wasting knights valor. That needs to be reworked and become a class feature in order to makes us GF players usefull...
Princess Amber - DC
Shieldmaiden Amber - GF
Valkyrie Amber - GWF
Huntress Amber - HR
Currently Neverwinter has a built-in trinity - GFs are clearly tanks, DCs are clearly healers and all the other classes are DPS. This is reflected in the dungeon grouping policies.
The reason it is not working is because there are DPS classes with high utility that can take over the standard trinity roles and as an action game - there are a lot of ways to avoid taking damage. The GWF is effectively both a tank and a DPS and the Control Wizard is both a controller and a DPS, reducing the damage the enemy can dish out.
In order to make the GF and the DC desirable in parties again it stands to reason you raise their DPS in order to be an alternative to what the GWF and the CW can do. To make the other DPS classes desirable again you should add more utility to them.
This effectively eliminates the DPS disparity, removing the DPS role as well. Everybody will be either tank, healer, controller or buffer/debuffer. There will be healthy character interaction - the tank will serve the same role as in the trinity. The healer will also serve the same roll as in the trinity. The other classes will be contributing in other ways to the party - not just pew-pew from behind.
With pure DPS role gone this will open up more variety of builds as well. There will be more focus on how exactly you deal your damage, rather than how much damage you deal, and on what else you can do at the same time.
In the end you have more flexible party composition, more builds available, more interesting mechanics and greater party interaction. This will require some work on certain dungeons in order to make them harder and replace some of the gangs of mobs with something a little more interesting(there are that much mobs so that both the tank and the controller would have something to do, fewer but stronger mobs with better abilities would to a better job with this).
Princess Amber - DC
Shieldmaiden Amber - GF
Valkyrie Amber - GWF
Huntress Amber - HR
The current content, and how we out weigh it in gear, and boons from post Mods, is what makes a pure DPS/H group makeup more effective. Dumbing down the DPS classes to match OLD content, is simply <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, and a step backwards. I just can't believe people are still blind to this obvious mechanic. right now we are all equivalent to lvl 30s questing at level 1 content. IWD maybe was lvl 5, so just a new mod of a joke for PvE content.
Now since we have had nothing but low level content, but yet more powerful artifacts, companions, and boons dumped into the game, yet no content to compete, we have seen nerf after nerf on key classes, namely to make them compatible with PvP balance, but on the flip side hurting any potential trinity balance. IE cleric heals, GF surviability etc.
In GS equivalent groups (IE) everyone in the group is 10-12k GS at say, ToS? The GWF isn't a DPS tanking dungeon god, and the CW can be wiped in a mere second if taken over. in fact, the GWF has to dumb down over half his DPS potential and gear towards surviving, another words, there are no glass cannon GWFs in that gear bracket, face rolling those dungeons.
Of course we never see this, because nine times out of ten, when a group of people that are within equivalent GS for their content they tend to try zurging it, never really trying to adapt any group formation, and when they fail the few remaining simply wait for bigger GSed players to que in, or call guild mates to come finish the dungeon off for them. Of course, the most effective? a GWF or CW that out gears it.... while the CW, or the GWF that don't out gear it follows in tow.
It's probably the only way to make classes more desirable since they're unlikely to change the content. However I strongly disagree that it will promote healthy character interaction.
When every class is their own tank, healer and dps, it doesn't do much for character interaction.
Keep in mind that because of how incredibly powerful lifesteal is in this game, increasing DPS inherently increases your healing and tanking capabilities.
There's no opportunity to "save" your fellow party members when they're never under any real danger, not to mention DCs don't even have a burst heal and I don't think GFs even have a hard taunt until mod4.
So increasing DPS for utility classes and utility for dps classes (other than GWF and CW who already have tons of utility) is probably the only way to help all classes be wanted, but dungeons are still going to be a snooze fest of stacking mobs and dpsing them down without any sense of danger.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
0o - just to be clear my name is in the quote, but not my words lol...
And i 1000000% agree, Lifesteal is a broken mechenic that shouldn't be in a game such as this one. I have said it numerous times, if they had taken LS away from the GWF, they would be far more balanced in PvE, and their tank-ability cut in half, even more for the glass cannons.
Right now I am a pure dps build, only 450ish LS, (unintentional) and use none of the boons for self healing. at 16kGS (would be 17.5k with mainstream gears) one mistake and I could get my rear handed over to me in t1/2 content.
Why...?, I mean, any GWF/CW +16K is gonna explode things and destroy mobs in 3 seconds... if not, there is SW that seems will be king of DPS, so the only thing I will do with my GF is taunt and Tank the trash mobs that don't need to be Tanked for 2 seconds?, great... a CW can control mobs pretty good and will deal decent DPS even im Mod 4, why should my GF be stuck dealing 1/3 Damage of CW/GWF/HR and now SW?.
Maybe your suggestions are good for a 12K party trying to do MC or CN, but after a point there is no need for a GF at all, so if they don't add content to be Tanked even for a 15K GS party there won't be a space for a GF in the "High End" content... I'm not saying that they should give us a lot of DPS, but at least something to not be dead weight for higher GS parties.
make it a class feature so its always active and not a stupid encounter. It needs to work something like the way it works now. 50% of the damage anyone in the party gets is given to the tank instead. But they should lower the damage a GF gets from it to like 20% and still take the 50% from all party members.
Lets face it tanks may be able to pull mobs together but aoes can still hurt the party so its a must this is not an encounter rather an active feature that never goes on cd. If you never had to worry about useing pots that would maybe justify takeing us...
Princess Amber - DC
Shieldmaiden Amber - GF
Valkyrie Amber - GWF
Huntress Amber - HR
Adding more threat is a ridiculous idea. Dead mobs and mobs that are controlled need no threat. And no matter how much agro you have, you can't tank in this game. Look at VT. Can you taunt the hands? MC Hands? CN Hands. What about all the other aoe's? Who cares who has "agro". The mob's direct hit is nothing, or its a huge red line on the screen.
You can fix this in an xpansion. Control immune mobs that have really high damage direct attacks. Right there, that would make healing/tanking more necessary. I don't want a trinity either, but they have already said that they the GF is not a dps class, and they are giving it more threat and trying to make it tankier. So fine, then make something that needs a tank. If it doesnt need a tank, then there is no reason to have one, in fact you are worse off with it.
And I hate to say it, because I dont agree with it, but if you want GF to be a tank, you have to nerf unstoppable and GWF deflect. I play both, and like I say i think its bad, but if you want GF to be a tank, unstoppable needs a bigger nerf. Unstoppable + lifesteal + damage makes it ridiculous to bring a GF if you look at it from a performance basis.
I agree, and that's why I'm saying that they should give us more DPS, instead of that, changing the dungeons and the game mechanics like Life Steal that would make this game need a Tank (even for not low GS parties) are changes that won't happen soon (or never), so why we should wait months and months too see a "LFM GF" for another dungeon rather than only for FH, or a "LFM TR", "LFM HR", etc...
At least they should give us more DPS until they fix the game mechanics and dungeons, and then everyone could obey to his role, but leaving an entire class in the speculation that they will be needed, maybe, sometime, causes more damage to the game, and it's for a lot of classes, not only GF.
I don't understand that mentality of "make this game not need the Trinity", but make the GF Tankier and make the DC give more Heal to their teammates, this is the result of trying to make the Holy Trinity obsolete, but still trying to make the differences between DPS, Tank and Healer classes, making 2/3 classes obsolete.
You are utterly, utterly wrong. As things have developed, (at least at the "high end"), DCs are not primarily healers. Their primary function is now to buff and debuff. The DPS classes get enough heals through Lifesteal - in many cases they simply don't need a healer at all.
This is why many "high-end" DCs run around in High Prophet (instead of one of the T2 or T2.5 armor sets), use Plagueefire or Terror enchants (instead of Vorpal), and focus on Hallowed Ground and Divine Glow powers ... sure, they typically use Astral Shield, Astral Seal and even Sunburst, so there is some healing, but that is no longer the prime purpose.
To make DCs wanted as healers, you would have to reduce the health gained by Lifesteal a lot - probably by half.
SWs will surely provide more DPS, but the CW support on control and debuffs are by far the best things for PvE. Having a CW with HV will still be mandatory.
So your solution to the problem is removing what makes certain classes good in order to be as crappy as the other classes. That doesn't sound good at all. As other people have stated - the content is hard enough if done with the suggested GS equipment. What we need is more harder content and not to nerf classes to hell so that the dungeons will be harder for people who are far overgeared for them.
It is a common misconception that a tank should not deal damage. You know what generates more threat? More damage! And the DPS of the GF is ridiculously low. With the latest changes on Preview the devs are clearly stating that GFs are supposed to do 5 times less damage than the DPS classes which is absolutely ridiculous.
Well, they are not healers but buff/debuff because nobody wants them as healers so they have to adapt to be let in parties. Still they are designed as healers.
New content has to be significantly harder with significantly better gear, that would take a lot of time to complete.