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Is anything going to change?
hamletswords
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,320 Bounty Hunter
Basically it looks like CWs will still be Gods in the Add-infested content we have. And with the reversions of the nerfs to GWFs, they'll probably be the best class still to tag along with them just like they are now.
That leaves every other class pretty much out in the cold for PVE. Originally it looked like HR could secure a spot with the original buffs to archery but those have been lessened, so it'll probably not make sense to bring an HR when a CW can put out the same damage and control (and HRs cause nothing but disorder with aggro).
In PVP, GWFs will still be top tier. Combat HRs will probably still also be top tier along with TRs for contesting nodes.
So basically, months of testing and changes and coding for what exactly?
Would've been better off using the resources making new Domination maps/PVP gametypes and just leave everything as it is since effectively it looks like there will be no meaningful changes.
That leaves every other class pretty much out in the cold for PVE. Originally it looked like HR could secure a spot with the original buffs to archery but those have been lessened, so it'll probably not make sense to bring an HR when a CW can put out the same damage and control (and HRs cause nothing but disorder with aggro).
In PVP, GWFs will still be top tier. Combat HRs will probably still also be top tier along with TRs for contesting nodes.
So basically, months of testing and changes and coding for what exactly?
Would've been better off using the resources making new Domination maps/PVP gametypes and just leave everything as it is since effectively it looks like there will be no meaningful changes.
My Harem: Dawn HR, Erin CW, Piper TR, Zoe GWF
Post edited by hamletswords on
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As for PvP - yeap, I think nothing changes.
Try running epic dung. with SW, and even better - 4 SWs and you won't die even if you'd liked to. They can outheal DC outstandingly. And they outdps CW by far. So now you will have SWs infested runs.
I've just done MC (legit) as HR with another HR, GF, TR and DC, and I must say I'm really impressed. None of us was overgeared, yet it was flawless.
GFs can hold aggro way better than GWFs, so they're not useless as people pretend they are. HRs and TRs can be very effective if GF is holding aggro. As I said, it all comes down to tactics, but people seem to avoid challenges.
That's a change I guess. But not really since you're just replacing one totally dominate class with another. It still leaves most classes out to dry.
And yeah you can do content with basically any set-up because most of it is really easy, especially with how old most of it is and how much more geared we all are now.
But if given a choice, and everyone has a choice when they're forming a group, nobody goes out of their way to pick a class that will make the run take longer, and basically 4/6 classes make it take longer.
If SW is that OP, then it'll be 6/7 classes out to dry.
I can't imagine balance being any worse than it is now but it's possible I guess.
I've been playing MMOs for about 10 years and I've never seen anything like it. Normally there might be one or two classes that people didn't want, but not the overwhelming majority.
I think the Devs really need to re-examine the basic philosophy of PVE. It seems they wanted to make it so basically any dungeon could be done with any class composition. That seems great at first, but then that means people are only going to want to take the best class.
It's a serious issue because it leaves the majority of the playerbase without ready access to the majority of the content. It's bad for player retention.
There needs to be a reason not to stack classes, at least beyond 2. There should be some benefit to using a variety of classes. Most MMOs accomplish this with the holy trinity system, meaning that you need a tank and a healer (to go along with your stacked dps) or you're going to have a bad time. I'm sure there's another way to do it, but that's the tried and true method.
Anyhow, I replied here just to remind you that you: a) terribly misquoted me; or b) quoted wrong person.
Why's that though? How much is a design problem and how much is a people problem?
I've read about poorly designed dungeons, the lousy RNG for gear drops. Then there's also the game economy where people may want easy runs to farm for currency.
Are gamers bad when it come to freedom, they need hard and fast rules or they'll just take to easiest option?
Overall I think they are MOSTLY fine. (I don't play CW either) Their damage is high. And some of their spells should be more utility based than damage. Such as Singularity. Keep the higher # of targets but either remove or lower the damage. Lowering the targets also hurts the group they are with. Outside of their damage, their main problem is the content. As long as we keep getting dungeons of "more adds" they will always be the first pick class.
HR - High damage. Enough to justify it being all they bring. Masters of DPS and avoidance.
Ask yourself. How much damage does a CW need to do to bring them over another CW if they have their CC removed? To me it's 30%. That's how much a HR should do over a non-striker class. HR's also bring little burst. They have good mobility and strong sustained damage. With the removal of the Nature tree their supportive abilities are weak. Used to be a weaker DC with more damage. No reason to slot a buff ability unless you want the other part of the ability. Such as an Archer using Binding Shot for the quick cast/damage from it. Happens to have Oak Skin. Not that I'd often swap to use it.
Sadly I don't see Combat or Trapper being too effective in PvE. And I'm mostly sure any OP you think we have now in PvP will be reduced for Mod 4. Depending on what happens with TR. I don't see much of the HR outside of PvE Archery.
DC - Low damage. Tons of utility. Master of stats.
Really to me they are fine. The problem right now is that most players outgear the content so much that anything support/low damage is a waste of a slot. If you worry about your ability to live through the content. DC is always the first class you look to grab. They have a lot of odd abilities and feats that need looked at though. And for a support class, they have a lot of pure damage abilities.
TR - High single target damage. Great at picking off targets
Should be #1 single target. Amazing at picking off weaker targets. Perhaps dash/teleport for getting a killing blow. Allowing them to dance around taking care of the trash. Perma-stealth needs to go though. Needs a better defense.
-Change their Shift to put them into stealth for .5 seconds. Avoiding all incoming damage. Reduce stamina cost so they can use this 3 times in a full bar.
-Change decoy so using a stealth empowered version allow you to swap locations with it but you still dodge back. You swap back by reactivating the ability.
From my limited experince. They have very few ways to handle bosses with a lot of close range AoE's. They dodge will quickly run out of stamina. This change makes it so timing their Shift becomes very important. Similar to GF. They can do extremely well. But they need some love to do their job better. I also feel with the removal of Perma-Stealth this change would help them hold a place in PvP. As they'd be able to avoid damage with the right timing. Not quite at the level of a HR, but a HR wont put out the damage they do either.
GWF - Jack of all Trades. Spec dependent. (DPS, Tank, CC)
Same as CW. Overall fine, content is just too outdated. Why take a GF when a GWF does just as well with more damage. Even if the GF becomes safer and better at threat. Stuff just dies too fast most of the time.
Damage is slightly high and they are a little too good at being a "jack of all trades". CC is about the only one that is weaker. I think The coming changes will fix most of this as long as other classes actually allow them to be worth bringing over a GWF.
GF - Controller of the combat. Master of Tank/Threat.
To me a GF should be able to group mobs as well as a CW while tanking them. That's their trade off. CW gets to do it form safety and bring damage. GF should be masters of threat. In a Dungeon they should make everyone's job easier. Easier for the dps because mobs wont need to be kited as much. Easier for supports because fewer abilities will be required to assist the GF as a GWF.
But that's not all. They do need something in PvP. I'd suggest an ability that uses the Guard Meter(now stamina) to deal additional damage. Overall they trade their defense for offense. This will mainly be single target focused. Such as a shield slam. It's my understanding most of the GF At-Wills are lacking. Would be a good place to start. Also while shield is up, ignore half of armor pen.
This would give them a strong place in PvE. Especially if strikers actually get to deal strong damage. Threat could start to matter.
This would give them a decent place in PvP. It'd allow damage. I don't have much else for them. Seems that's the main complaint. The Apen change should also help a bit.
SW - Unsure. They sound OP right now and I know little of them. They sound like they're meant to be a strong damage with good support abilities(sounds like a better HR already). I would of expected DPS/debuff. Maybe they area also this. I know little.
Trinity is overall already there.
Tank, dps, support
GWF - Tank/DPS
CW - DPS/Support(CC is a supportive ability)
Most groups already run a trinity.
Dungeons don't fully require a tank. But A lot of this has to do with being overgeared for the content.
I did a FH with a DC, CW, 2x HR and a TR. No one really tanked. We CC'd and AoE everything down. That and the DC pretty much makes everyone a tank.
Trinity is fine. It's a different trinity. And a good one for this game.
With it needs to come a multi-spec. Because Trinity systems always come with a shortage of a roll. This game would probably be tank.
Trinities give a baseline for balance. If a class's worth is important to a group such as a CW overshadowing all DPS. Then there needs to be a baseline. Easier to balance a best Tank/DPS/Support. Rather than a best of all the classes.
For this game things can even be shortend more to a 2.
DPS/Support(CC, Tank, healing, buff/debuff)
Not needing a tank and putting them as a supportive class would also work just as well.
Or even
Mob Control(CC/Tank), DPS (Pewpew), Support(buff, debuff, healing)
There's a lot of baselines this game can follow. It's just a matter of picking one that works and following it.
except GWF are DPS/TANK/GODMODE
Yeah obviously I misquoted your name with something someone else wrote.
The point of this thread is that all of these changes are coming through but people are still only going to stack groups with 1 or 2 classes, and we will have 7 classes.
That's terrible. The worst balance I've ever seen in an MMO.
It's 100% a design problem. You can't fault people for not wanting to group with classes that will make dungeons take longer, especially when the rewards for dungeons are so infrequent (meaning you have to do multiple runs for a decent shot at anything worth anything at all, meaning you want to do them as fast as possible).
Yeah it's weird because certain classes totally fit a trinity game- DC and GF, but the design of the dungeons doesn't support the use of dedicated tanks or healers.
Lifesteal and CC are all the healing and tanking you need to do well in this game.
This, along with over geared player base vs content.
Why do we need tanks, when the content don't hit squishiest classes for jack? Most robed/leather/chainmail classes in full epic t2+ and the best refined enchants, plethora of companions, and easily refined artifacts Xs 3 = godemode in nublet zones...and can deal the damage, as well as take the damage, and burn most mobs down before they can get a more than two hits in.. DUH!
Why would we need healers? when heavy DPS classes can stack minimum amounts of LS, and still mitigate the damage intake of the preset attack intervals of NPCs? 10% for LS is game breaking enough, don't believe that? research PWE's mother game (pwi) that had content for 7 years that required TANK/Healer And all in between to even consider completing, until they introduced a class that gave all melee classes a Life steal like buff at just 10%. (blood paint) now group dynamics have been screwed for that game every since, making Tanks/healers obsolete.
This is why, no matter how you guys try and slice it. All this class balance BS, is entirely centered around PvP issues....
Give us real content, that would ONE hit a squishy, TWO/THREE hit a leather, and wtf PWN a heavy that isn't on their toes, you would see how PvE balanced the game already was. I would say first tho, they would need to make a tank a real meat shield, and give the cleric a real direct heal like all traditional trinity games had to have.
but meh, seems we are headed in the direction of GW2, where everyone is a tank/healer
Sad isn't it? But truer words were never spoken. Until Cryptic change threat in the game to actually matter in dungeons, GF will never be needed. My one gripe about dungeons (besides the sh!tty droprate for epics) is that there is no strat besides gathering up all the mobs and AoE'ing til they're dead. Increasing the difficulty by throwing more adds at you is just very bad game design as it only lends to spamming mass AoE abilities and nothing else, and if you can't contribute to that, sorry bud no space for you in our dungeon run. Why bother about the "Holy Trinity" when 5 CW's can just breeze through top-tier content and make a mockery of the tank/healer/dps set-up? I love this game but the direction it is taking is a major concern. I agree with Hamletswords that the overall class balance is terribad and getting worse with the advent of the new god-mode Scourge Warlock.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
I'm on the completely opposite opinion. The problem is that all the classes are meant for the trinity but nobody wants to play the trinity because it is boring. They should stop fighting to keep the trinity and make group content focused on actual group play and not on under-though ancient mechanic that nobody wants to play. The trinity cannot work well in action combat environment because there are ways to avoid damage so the tank and healing roles are not needed.
How do you propose group play without the tanking and healing element? Full-out dps and burn the mobs down in five seconds flat? Yeah not boring at all...
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Classes that may get lots of runs too will be HR and DC.
And to no surprise the least taken classes will be TR and GF's like usual.
Princess Amber - DC
Shieldmaiden Amber - GF
Valkyrie Amber - GWF
Huntress Amber - HR
And the trinity is different how exactly? One person stays in one place and takes hits. One person stays in one place and heals the person that takes hits. 3 other people stand in one place and deal damage. How about position based tactics where you establish a front line and a back line and you don't allow mobs to pass the front line without basing anything on agro? Or chain crowd control where you have to cycle through the whole party abilities in order to keep a very powerful mob constantly disabled? How about establishing an ambush for mobs with various traps? Or a mechanic where you must disable an alarm before reinforcements are called but in the same time you have to deal with the troops that are already there? Or a stealth based run where only a small number of enemies has to be killed in order to progress but on several occasions players have to distract enemy groups in order for the others to progress? How about formations mechanic where players get bonuses for fighting in different formations as an extension of the combat advantage mechanic? And you know what, trinity would also be a viable strategy with the changes that I proposed in one of my previous posts - it will just not be the only viable strategy and people would like to play it because they will not lose on DPS.
We have plenty of examples where there is no trinity and group play is extremely important. Games like DOTA, Warframe, Team Fortress 2, Chivalry, Diablo show that group play can be extremely important even without strict roles to shoehorn every character in.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
DotA - Very different game. But generally you still have Tank, dps, support. If you don't have a tank you will do poorly in teamfights with no one to absorb damage. Supports bring powerful buffs/situational abilities. These turn the battle. And of course if you do no damage, you wont win anything. MOBA's all have trinities. You still want certain setups. These are not required. But you take a risk from going away from this.
Warframe - Have not played it. It looks like the classes are mostly normalized. Everyone can do equal things. My understanding is the game also gets boring somewhat easily. Not a good game to be dedicated to. Something that's good to keep on the computer to play here and there.
TF2 - Again... vastly different. Not sure why you would even use this as an example.
Chivalry - Have not played this either. But it seems to be again, very different. It's more about a strategy than balance it seems. And every playstyle having it's use.
Diablo - Another very different game. Each of these classes are usually designed to destroy the content. Also very normalized. While they all do very different things. They are all built for one thing. Damage. Easy to balance around when that's the main stat. There are other factors. But if you don't do the damage, you often wont get far. The rest is easily tweaked.
If there is any game I can think of that would be similiar to Neverwinter it would be Vindictus. But they have a better dungeon design. It's not about having adds everywhere. Because the boss should be #1 focus. No red zones either. You have to know when to move.
But it is also a different game. You can complete anything with a full run of the same class. But each class has a downside to doing so. Caster for example can only freeze so often and the boss becomes immune if done too much. The pillar holding guy(forget his name) can interrupt bosses. But the same mechanics. Limited. Different combat styles overall. It is a dungeon crawling game. You can play the whole things solo if you want. There are some bonuses for even doing so. It's not class based or MMO required. It's closer to Diablo than Neverwinter. Also the only damage meter you see is when the last boss dies. All it tells is damage done to boss. Trash is meaningless as it should be.
Neverwinter is a dungeon crawling class based MMO. Class balance is important. And the highest end content is meant for groups. Outside of vastly outgearing the content you wont see someone soloing CN. It has many problems. And a lot of them are tied to dungeon design.
I don't care how they do it, the trinity way is just the most tried and true method that has worked in countless games.
The only thing I care about is that they make it so there's some reason to want every class for a group.
I don't think the way people play proves we don't want the trinity, it's just that if you run a trinity set-up with a GF and DC, your run is going to take twice as long.
It's not really because DC or GF are that bad, but because there's no tactics in PvE, just a DPS race. It's absolutely expectable that the class, that deals the most damage, will be wanted the most. GF and DC should provide strong buffs to enhance the damage of their group, and I mean significantly increase, not just tiny 5% more damage or 15% more power. There's no way to fix DCs and GFs other then give them tools to increase DPS of their teammates, because the only thing you want in this game's PvE - more damage.
Yeah, the reasoning behind my propositions is to want every class in a party. The reasoning behind the trinity is to need certain classes in a party which is completely different.
The reason the trinity works in many games is that there is no way to avoid taking damage with skillful play so you need to use it. The reason it doesn't work here is because you have a way to avoid damage by playing skillfully. I do not want that skill removed so I want the reason the trinity is not used removed - the DPS disparity.
Oh, but they are bad because they do less damage. If they did comparable damage they wouldn't be bad. Also rogues and rangers have fallen out of grace because while they can do comparable damage to the CW and the GWF they don't have the utility these classes provide. And yeah, I think buffing roles definitely should be in the game but certain classes should not be limited to being a buffer.
I play mainly GF so here is my reasoning between what different builds for the GF should be:
1. Direct DPS role comparable to the other classes that has to avoid most direct damage but is still able to tank some of it.
2. Tanking role that deals damage primarily by making others hit him and debuffs the enemy damage.
3. Buffer role that greatly increases the damage of the party. Does not have great defenses but also has greater control on the battlefield with stuns and ground control.
At first glance it looks that this is exactly what builds are available to the GF but in reality it is tank with slightly increased damage, tank that has a bit better defenses and tank that can slightly buff the party damage. So instead of tank/tank/confused turtle I would want a dps/buffer/damage reflect tank as builds available.
This game is just a year old, and our class forums is full of how to out gear/boon/feat the content.
GW2, PvE flopped in just a year as well, when they prided themselves in bringing a new level of game play. essentially meaning everyone brought something equally to the table, and essentially no one relied on no one else but themselves.
The way the game is going you're taking away the sense of pride people develop in long term play of their particular class. When everyone can bring the same to the table, where is any class individuality, and the personality behind them? Which is fine, just dont expect a long lifespan of the game.