Lifesteal is still vastly over performing with Smolder/rimefire. More so even than the former shard throwing Control Wizard in my opinion.
Given that Smolder can be placed on an almost infinite amount of add's and it crits for over 1000 damage a tick. (To the tune of 100 healing per second per add.) So this can quickly add up to at least 1000 healing per second for a DoT mage. Just thought I'd point that out while we're talking about feedback.
This is most easily seen when you crit on an Icy Terrain, as you're gaining health off the Icy Terrain itself and each tick of Smolder. These are not large hits individually, but it's a lot of hits and when it crits each hit isn't something to sneeze at once there are more than 5-7 targets burning.
It operates almost identically to pre-nerf-deep gash, where each tick of a DoT provides healing. It works that way on live and test if you're curious about it.
The above, combined with the Nerf to Singularity, means that MoF/Thaum will be the new king of DoT death. (Which ends up being the king of healing, FYI.) I say this as there is no longer any reason to ever use Singularity over Furious Immolation as FI is better in any situation with the daze. I doubt the same could be said of Maelstrom of Chaos which essentially means Spellstorm is dead in the water for Control.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Anybody heared of the nice spells called *stoneskin and *fireshield back in the old AD&D days.
Cws main issues in pvp is that ones they get focused they have no defence left and go down fast then any other class making them prime target.
The fireshield spell would at least punish the infidels that dare to attack the mighty wizzy ). (it works so that if you attack the wizard you get as much dam as you deliver as long as fireshield is active(yes this dam is firedam and can be negated but still)).
Stonskin had 2 versions 1 it was active for a certain period of time and made the wizard immune to pure physical dam, version 2 absorbed a number attacks based on the wizards lvl.
Given these very simple options would make room for some breathing space for cws in pvp and if tested so that they dont give to much or to little I think they could actually contribute to a much more fun pvp experiance without tipping the balance either way....
I doubt the same could be said of Maelstrom of Chaos which essentially means Spellstorm is dead in the water for Control.
I remember only one time when MoC was a wanted skill - it was able to interrupt Valindra, and it was a bug which was fixed. Never before it or after it this end game SS daily power was of any use.
SpellStorm end powers are:
1. Shard, which will be nerfed to only knock down foes, damage part will be of no value.
2. Maelstrom of Chaos which was, is and will remain useless. I don't know any CW that would use it. Not a single one.
3. Eye of the Storm which will be useless as well, once you combine it with longer casting time and 25s. ICD.
Can you see this, Ladies and Gants? We are talking about SpellStorm's final powers. Daily terribly weak forever, encounter and passive both nerfed. One would think end powers should be most rewarding. How come Maelstrom is not even half as good as MoF's Furious Immolation? (And now FI will have more damage to it, too). This will make SpellStorm Mage a rare species indeed.
Or maybe it would be a good idea to finally make MoC of some use (increase damage, area of effect, longer interruption/daze/faster casting time/you name it).
Bids he then the spruces to singer him an anthems!
And the Woodsie Lord binders them fleshes to stone!
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited June 2014
Not sure why my original post was deleted on this however... I saved it anyway...
Here is the Character, I'm sure you can verify this on your servers and have the access to copy it and use it to verify.
It is using YOUR full Black Ice gear you just made for this expansion.
This is a high geared Character at almost a 17k gear score and with a 7600 power wearing all your Black Ice gear and Black Ice Corrupted Orb and Greater Vorpal.
THIS is from YOUR tooltip on Live.... for Shards of Endless Avalanche with that 7600 Power.
On Live I do about 7200 damage on Shardplosion with it.... AT a 7600 Power score. That with Transcended Master Feated... the Recast time on that is 13 seconds as you can see in your tooltip... That's with a seriously geared character...
AND as an MoF who does NOT have Eye of the Storm.... to Guarantee Crits. This is the Top Tier Highest level Capstone Power of the CW class, and our strongest spell in the chart as it should be...
It does whopping 533 damage PER second... Per Target... That's less damage per second than even the First level spells and some of our At Wills. Any amount of testing AT ALL will tell you this spell is not and never has been "overpowered".... in fact it ONLY does lot of damage on CRIT in an ENORMOUS amount of mobs... and the ONLY way that can happen is if you overdid the dungeons with mass mobs in a way that prevents the other Striker (that's Single Target damage in D&D) from participation.
It CAN crit up to around 20k damage give or take, on an MoF who does not have Eye of the Storm to guarantee Crits.... and with Greater and Perfect Vorpals.
Mind you this is the HIGHEST level encounter spell of the entire class.... that comes down from the old spell Meteor Swarm which was the highest level most damaging spell of the Magic User.
Whoever told you this spell is "overpowered" in this game was obviously lying... that's 7200 damage with a 13 second recast timer... for roughly 533 damage per second per target.... WITH an uber geared character. And because its not an Auto Hit spell can WIFF entirely netting you ZERO damage.
----
Now... having been over to Preview... to give you the ACTUAL damage... WITH the SAME character I just posted...
Shards (the Capstone High level Power of the CW) is now doing about 2700 damage on Shardplosion... at a 13sec Recast timer.... for a whopping.... 207 damage per second...
Chill Strike (the 1st level spell) does about this much damage when Tabbed in the Mastery slot.
This is now even lower than ALL other AoEs of much much lower level... Did you REALLY think this one through or are you just knee jerking it according to what other people whined about or claimed? Because this one took all of 2 seconds to test.
Did you actually THINK bout what you did?
This is with a 16.8k Geared Character with a 7600 power score.... let alone a 12k-13k average mage who only has about 4000-5000 power... what did you just do to the lower geared "average" mages....
Again it takes 2 seconds to check this out... its not that hard... easy to verify and I know you can easily do it on my character.
What were you thinking? Were you afraid of Spellstorms..... repeatedly critting for 20k+ on this one with uber gear?
Ok Fair enough....
Well you've solved that one now.... by moving the recast on the Eye of the Storm down..... to around what 30 seconds which is far more than the recast timer or 12-13 seconds on the encounter power after Recovery score?
So obviously at this point you can revert this one back to normal LIVE side damage.... as its damage was never "overpowered" in the first place... right?
My test on Steal Time (One slot lower level spell) shows this one to be doing about 4000-5000 damage AS a lower level spell and SURPASSES the Capstone Power of the class AND adds a 3 second stun on it... WITH a shorter recast timer... AND unlike Shards its easy to hit with and doesn't require pushing... OR have nearly the bugs with throwing it almost sideways at times regardless of where you aimed it (any amount of testing or checking on your part would also show this too).
And on top of that, you've ALSO destroyed TWO paragon trees of the CW class... the Spellstorm most benefits from.
I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here... that you are NOT attempting to completely destroy and obliterate the Spellstorm Paragon path as whole... but you haven't left me much wiggle room here. I am TRYING to believe you are not intentionally destroying Spellstorms as a whole. But you are making that very difficult.... AND all of these things would have taken less than two seconds to find.
Yes MoF is just fine... I was able to run round without troubles.... Icy Terrain is as worthless as ever... but overall the changes to MoF's DoTs were good ones. So you're obviously not trying to destroy that one...
What exactly is your point here?
Are you thinking this through with a CLEAR head... or one based on what other people told you to think... because this stuff takes only two seconds to figure out that its WAY over the top.
And even your suggestion of adding a 3 second prone to Shards is STILL highly questionable....
Again I ask what was your intention with this obviously heavy handed and either negligently ignorant... (or possibly willfully malicious action) that is destroying our counterparts... the Spellstorms...
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arbitrarityMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 96Arc User
edited June 2014
Shardsplosion doing equal damage to tabbed chill strike seems appropriate, frankly. They have comparable cooldowns, and Shard makes up for its difficulty in casting with brutal multi-targeted CC and better than double damage to primary (rolled over) targets. I'd rather see a slightly reduced (40%, rather than 60%) nerf, but Shard damage was INSANELY out of line. Recast time doesn't matter when any group of mobs in the game gets run over by a single shard per CW, and that's exactly what happens in CN right now. Steal Time is better? Yeah, albeit with a 5 target cap and 3s cast time, it now does the same-ish damage as Shard, and CC's a more convenient area, also proccing almost everything several times. I don't see why they buffed it, unless they're going to be nerfing the instant 3 stacks of HV or something.
Oh, and if you think Icy Terrain is useless, think again. Oppressor MoF with CoI and Icy Terrain is going to be the next hot build. Shattered is really strong, any group getting hit by CoI can then be frozen indefinitely. SS mage can even freeze hypothetically infinite targets, between IT and SS giving 5 stacks of chill.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Shardsplosion doing equal damage to tabbed chill strike seems appropriate, frankly. They have comparable cooldowns, and Shard makes up for its difficulty in casting with brutal multi-targeted CC and better than double damage to primary (rolled over) targets. I'd rather see a slightly reduced (40%, rather than 60%) nerf, but Shard damage was INSANELY out of line..
Insanely out of line???
Have you lost your mind?
Its 530 damage per second at a 17k Gear score... AND 7600 power... and a whopping 1 second stun...
Its not even in question... its NOT and never was "overpowered".
Chill Strike is a 1st level NEWBIE spell...
Shards of Endless Avalanche is a TOP TIER, CAPSTONE power of the CW...
That this was NOT an overpowered.... spell isn't even in question.
I have more than adequately demonstrated that....
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aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
edited June 2014
One of our final powers doing the same damage as one of our first powers is appropriate?
Icy Terrain may be fine with Oppressors (if they're not grouped with people who can't play around Icy Terrain), but we're not all Oppressors and don't want to be. Nor do we all want to be MoF.
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arbitrarityMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 96Arc User
Its 530 damage per second at a 17k Gear score... AND 7600 power... and a whopping 1 second stun...
Its not even in question... its NOT and never was "overpowered".
Chill Strike is a 1st level NEWBIE spell...
Shards of Endless Avalanche is a TOP TIER, CAPSTONE power of the CW...
That this was NOT an overpowered.... spell isn't even in question.
I have more than adequately demonstrated that....
No, you haven't. You haven't even composed a reasonable argument to demonstrate that. I'll try, if you like. "An ability's dps, based on its damage divided by its cooldown, determines whether or not the ability is balanced. Shard has worse dps than Magic Missile, therefore it is balanced"
Oh wait, that's a really ****ty argument. Disregarding the obvious ad absurdum of an ability that hits for 60000 AOE damage (before crit) on a 120 second cooldown (oh, it only kills every enemy in PvP instantly, it's totally balanced!), you're comparing AOE (with a high target cap, no less) to single target, ignoring the effects of burst compared to sustained damage, ignoring shard rolling damage, and ignoring cast times to deal damage (which was notably brought up as being important by the devs as they nerfed Magic Missile). All of these benefit Shard. Shard deals obscene burst damage as-is on live. If you haven't encountered it in PvP and been run over for 20k damage, or run CN and watched every group melt to chained shards, you haven't seen Shard.
And yes, final powers doing similar damage to initial ones is appropriate. No one complains that Steal Time does comparable damage to Chill Strike. Most powers should be competitive choices, their position on the skill tree should be a matter of learning curve or specialization, not outright power. This isn't directly 4E D&D with n[W] damage scaling on powers, we understand how to scale things here, it's not difficult. See Rain of Arrows, Lashing Blade, Takedown, Conduit of Ice, and Lunging Strike. All early powers, all very strong.
What does "can't play around Icy Terrain" mean? You do the exact same thing CW's have done from time immemorial, group mobs and sit them in some AOE. Are some teams unable to play around Shard, or Conduit of Ice? Because those are also AOEs.
Finally, a good point. Yes, MoF Oppressor being obviously stronger than other builds from these changes is a bad thing. We like diversity and choices. I'd argue that the reduced nerf to EoTS makes SS fairly competitive for damage (25% uptime is still a LOT), and the Sudden Storm nerf hurts a lot (then again it's still the best pure damage power, as it should be), but Renegade has been gutted, and Thaumaturge has similarly lost most of its shine.
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aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
edited June 2014
I mean that Icy Terrain is very laggy. Many people can't move when it's used. I've never heard of any similar issues with other powers.
IBS hits MUCH harder than Takedown or Restoring Strike.
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arbitrarityMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 96Arc User
edited June 2014
Laggy I can agree with. It does tend to have that issue. I think it's usually fixable with graphics setting changes, though exactly what, I'm unsure. Nerf graphics plz.
IBS hits 50% harder than Takedown/Restoring Strike, with a cooldown maybe 2s longer. I'd agree it's overall stronger than Takedown/Restoring Strike, but I'd also feel comfortable saying it's a bit high in terms of damage, even with its downsides, especially with its AOE properties.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
No, you haven't. You haven't even composed a reasonable argument to demonstrate that. I'll try, if you like. "An ability's dps, based on its damage divided by its cooldown, determines whether or not the ability is balanced. Shard has worse dps than Magic Missile, therefore it is balanced"
Oh wait, that's a really ****ty argument. Disregarding the obvious ad absurdum of an ability that hits for 60000 AOE damage (before crit) on a 120 second cooldown (oh, it only kills every enemy in PvP instantly, it's totally balanced!),
PvP????
What the Hell are you talking about?
Get a clue here... this game wasn't designed for PvP, the powers were designed for PvE where mobs have hundreds of thousands to MILLIONS of health.
Shards is right on target with where it SHOULD be on LIVE... ergo... about 7000 damage WITH at 7600 power score.... Every 13 seconds... AND its a TOP TIER HIGHEST one in the tree... It BETTER be doing a whole hell of a lot more than Chill Strike that is a Level 1 NEWBIE spell... which is what happens on Preview.
So that 7000 damage in a 16.8k Gear Score with a 7600 power every ... ohhh 13 seconds is pretty low ALREADY FOR that kind of upper tier gear score... its only about 530 damage per second
I do not know what form of logic you are using to get where you are... but whatever it is... its not even close to reality.
Icy Terrain does approximately 500 damage per tick on my testing on Preview. That is SERIOUSLY underpowered and of highly questionable merit being that the mobs are MOBILE in this game.... and don't tend to stay on if for more than a Second without throwing another spell ON TOP of it to add chill stacks fast enough.... so it even sucks as a control spell.
Yeah fantasy doesn't meet reality very well my friend.
For the record here... My Magic Missile in that gear score does about 800-900 damage per missile EACH SECOND... that's how seriously underpowered Icy Terrain is...
SO in order to get it to even work properly you have to build the ENTIRE CHARACTER.... FEATED around ONE spell that is the weakest one in the CW arsenal.
THIS is supposedly your Idea of a "balanced" CW?
Lol Dont' make me laugh... Do you even play CW as a main? I highly doubt it. Hell do you even Play OTHER characters? Trust me their damage is WAYYYY over that.
I wouldn't put my money on Icy Terrain being much of ANYTHING... let alone even worth a spell slot.
You release Very powerful artifacts, more powerful companions, overpowered t2 gear and you accuse CW of doing too much damage and Nerf the CW class to nothing!
Don't create it and we will not buy it, will not work for it, and can not acquire it.
*** Are you familiar with what happened to the Netherese? They Harnessed the power that was there in the world, created a floating citadel for themselves. YOUR CW (rework) is Cataclysmic to those who wield the power of magic!***
We've gone from 4th edition to ADND while everyone else is still in 4th edition...
May Gygax haunt you in your dreams.
Yeah but now we can act as a walking refrigerator and keep everybody else's beers and packed lunch cool and in one place while the rest of the party have fun and kill stuff... XD
Yeah but now we can act as a walking refrigerator and keep everybody else's beers and packed lunch cool and in one place while the rest of the party have fun and kill stuff... XD
But only Oppressor can do that. Thaumaturge got dramatically nerfed, and I was surprised that some people still considered it as "magical destroyer".
But only Oppressor can do that. Thaumaturge got dramatically nerfed, and I was surprised that some people still considered it as "magical destroyer".
Thats what I meant , only one viable build left and at the moment it is pointless even testing since most of what is up on preview either isn't working or is slated for change , meh whatever I'm just making a Warlock lol
Oh and if you think Thaumaturge is bad try out Renegade Spellstorm , it's spells are now as powerful as the toys teachers give you in science class that demonstrate how friction produces a electric charge XD
The current situation is out of hand. Surely you agree something has to be done. 4cws and 1GWF is the optimal party for any dungeon. It's crazy!
When you throw 20 mobs at a party, you need more control. That's not the problem the CW created rather one created by game content designer. Tougher Fewer mobs would be more challenging and allow GF to hold agro. Also could have Friendly (mobs) inside Dungeons that we will need to keep alive would make guardian fighters more needed as well. Spawning pools such as Spell Plague are Great ideas. Nerf Current Gear (High Vizier Set)
Want to get a TR in Dungeons. Make disable Trap useful. Allow them to (Disable a trap) that would divert the mobs currently in the area. Or find a secret tunnel that bypasses content. All this is DND stuff. It's as if the game designers never played dnd or never GM'd a game.
.
Sudden Storm:
Either go with the 30% damage nerf and leave the recast
OR
Keep the damage and increase the recast as planned...
Pick one... but not both...
This is a Paragon defining feature of the Spellstorm. It should remain so.
OR
change it to Storm Cage... Storm Cage... STORM CAGE.....
Actually if you think about it, it will make SS paragon encounter way more useful than sudden storm since sudden storm gives you what? Damage? Of course if nobody is using a power that can make you miss it that is (some powers can "negate" CW powers like trying to fire SoEA/SS/Oppresing Force when, for example, enemies are under Singu effect).
On the other hand there is Storm Cage, a power that can control enemies, hold them in one place, stun perhaps or add a little DoT on spell mastery slot and BAM! We have power useful for everyone in a party (both PvP and PvE)
PS I may be a little too persistent on this power but still... it's a way better choice than Sudden Storm for Control Wizard
so i finally have a GWF at lvl60 and hence i can see no reason to nerf CWs (i do have a CW at lvl60 too)
i mean my GWF is only 9k and from the looks of it i can pretty much say that i can beat my CW (14k GS) to pulp with a little hardship while my CW will still not be able to do that as easily even after being at 14kGS.
WHY IN THE F-ing Name of F do You (Devs) wanna nerf CWs further more ( didnt you already nerf CWs using master of flames abilities by a total of 30% which is huge to start with!?
im so sad for my CW after coming to know about the 'further nerfing in mod4' news
In some cases with some builds CW's would absolutely own ALL of PvE, especially Dungeons and many Skirmishes due to their combination of powerful AoE Damage and Crowd Control abilities. It was down to either:
1)Nerf CW's
2)Buff several other Classes to match them
3)Redesign all Dungeons, Skirmishes, and Events to rely on something other than masses of Adds spawning and using shear raw numbers as the only "Trick" to the Fights.
Option two would almost certainly cause more problems than it would fix and option three would be difficult and expensive, so option one it is.
'Wen considered the nature of time and understood that the universe is, instant by instant, recreated anew. Therefore, he understood, there is in truth no past, only a memory of the past. Blink your eyes, and the world you see next did not exist when you closed them. Therefore, he said, the only appropriate state of the mind is surprise. The only appropriate state of the heart is joy. The sky you see now, you have never seen before. The perfect moment is now. Be glad of it.' Terry Pratchet The Thief Of Time
In some cases with some builds CW's would absolutely own ALL of PvE, especially Dungeons and many Skirmishes due to their combination of powerful AoE Damage and Crowd Control abilities. It was down to either:
1)Nerf CW's
2)Buff several other Classes to match them
3)Redesign all Dungeons, Skirmishes, and Events to rely on something other than masses of Adds spawning and using shear raw numbers as the only "Trick" to the Fights.
Option two would almost certainly cause more problems than it would fix and option three would be difficult and expensive, so option one it is.
Yes but option 3 would be the "proper" fix. Option 1 just alienates the playerbase that used to play CW's.
I've already retired my CW. I retired my TR after he was nerfed.
At the end of the day, I don't believe they are even a step closer to achieving their goal of "balancing".
Well, if you only play classes when they're at the top of their abilities and drop them when they get nerfed, then you'll have lots of bad moments in this game.
I've played a TR since I started, and even after all the nerfs I'm still playing with him. I play a class because I find it fun, not because I can or not top the charts.
Like Jorifice said, it was probably the easiest and most effective solution.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
so i finally have a GWF at lvl60 and hence i can see no reason to nerf CWs (i do have a CW at lvl60 too)
i mean my GWF is only 9k and from the looks of it i can pretty much say that i can beat my CW (14k GS) to pulp with a little hardship while my CW will still not be able to do that as easily even after being at 14kGS.
WHY IN THE F-ing Name of F do You (Devs) wanna nerf CWs further more ( didnt you already nerf CWs using master of flames abilities by a total of 30% which is huge to start with!?
im so sad for my CW after coming to know about the 'further nerfing in mod4' news
He ?
Maybe you chose bad skills feats cuz any one know CW with 1200 LS can solo almost all T2 dungeon with 14 k GS in HV
armor set . If y need proof i can post a picture from my wife CW lesser p fire enchant soloed E.Karru or whatever y chose.
But 14k GS GWF with lesser p fire cant solo T2 i am almost 100% sure .In preview they cant even survive 4 adds in dungeons.
Also i tested oppressor can still solo E.Karru or other t2 instances in peview(same CW just oppressor tree) the time to finish is much slower but the CC from oppressor it brutal and powefull.
He ?
Maybe you chose bad skills feats cuz any one know CW with 1200 LS can solo almost all T2 dungeon with 14 k GS in HV
armor set . If y need proof i can post a picture from my wife CW lesser p fire enchant soloed E.Karru or whatever y chose.
But 14k GS GWF with lesser p fire cant solo T2 i am almost 100% sure .In preview they cant even survive 4 adds in dungeons.
Also i tested oppressor can still solo E.Karru or other t2 instances in peview(same CW just oppressor tree) the time to finish is much slower but the CC from oppressor it brutal and powefull.
y tryed to run CN with my 18,5k gwf on preview if i agroed more than 5-6 mobs >insta dead
change it to Storm Cage... Storm Cage... STORM CAGE.....
PS I may be a little too persistent on this power but still... it's a way better choice than Sudden Storm for Control Wizard
Actually Sudden Storm is utilized a LOT by Spellstorms that know what they're doing.
Its almost a standard part of a Dungeon Rotation. Usually you're looking at CoI, Sudden Storm, Steal Time, and Shards on a Spellstorm.
Spellstorms use the Thunder and Lightning fast strike approach (lol no surprise for a Lightning Storm Mage).
They teleport in, Steal Time on a group of mobs to set them up in a line... use Sudden Storm on them so they can hit them all in a line. Then use a finisher like Shards for the big kaboom to knock them all down. Ergo.. the Thunder and Lightning approach... which is pretty fitting for a Spellstorm.
I'm not sure why you seem to think "control" means control by position. In D&D it actually means AoE damage, not the type of control you're thinking of. While that's a part of it... AoE damage is considered control.
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aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
edited June 2014
For me it's CS, SS, Shard, and ST. It does great damage in mastery, but I think CS does more on big groups, like after a sing. I use it in single target rotations as well, for Valindras hands and archers at Hrimnir. It's easy to miss with it though.
Actually Sudden Storm is utilized a LOT by Spellstorms that know what they're doing.
Its almost a standard part of a Dungeon Rotation. Usually you're looking at CoI, Sudden Storm, Steal Time, and Shards on a Spellstorm.
Spellstorms use the Thunder and Lightning fast strike approach (lol no surprise for a Lightning Storm Mage).
They teleport in, Steal Time on a group of mobs to set them up in a line... use Sudden Storm on them so they can hit them all in a line. Then use a finisher like Shards for the big kaboom to knock them all down. Ergo.. the Thunder and Lightning approach... which is pretty fitting for a Spellstorm.
I'm not sure why you seem to think "control" means control by position. In D&D it actually means AoE damage, not the type of control you're thinking of. While that's a part of it... AoE damage is considered control.
They use it because of its damage but with this update: almost nobody will use CoI (reduced damage, doesn't proc from thaum feat anymore-some oppressors/MoFs may use it due to freeze) and sudden storm gets 30% dmg nerf and increased CD.
Also how do you see CC being AoE damage here? It's not p&p D&D you know. Lack of proper "position control" here may cause quick death from surrounding enemies.
We have other classes to do damage to enemies, otherwise there would be no need for HR or even GWF
Actually Sudden Storm is utilized a LOT by Spellstorms that know what they're doing.
Its almost a standard part of a Dungeon Rotation. Usually you're looking at CoI, Sudden Storm, Steal Time, and Shards on a Spellstorm.
Spellstorms use the Thunder and Lightning fast strike approach (lol no surprise for a Lightning Storm Mage).
They teleport in, Steal Time on a group of mobs to set them up in a line... use Sudden Storm on them so they can hit them all in a line. Then use a finisher like Shards for the big kaboom to knock them all down. Ergo.. the Thunder and Lightning approach... which is pretty fitting for a Spellstorm.
I'm not sure why you seem to think "control" means control by position. In D&D it actually means AoE damage, not the type of control you're thinking of. While that's a part of it... AoE damage is considered control.
But after the nerf, Sudden Storm won't deal decent damage like it does now. I would rather see it being replaced by Storm Cage so that Spellstorm Mage have some control flavor.
Comments
Given that Smolder can be placed on an almost infinite amount of add's and it crits for over 1000 damage a tick. (To the tune of 100 healing per second per add.) So this can quickly add up to at least 1000 healing per second for a DoT mage. Just thought I'd point that out while we're talking about feedback.
This is most easily seen when you crit on an Icy Terrain, as you're gaining health off the Icy Terrain itself and each tick of Smolder. These are not large hits individually, but it's a lot of hits and when it crits each hit isn't something to sneeze at once there are more than 5-7 targets burning.
It operates almost identically to pre-nerf-deep gash, where each tick of a DoT provides healing. It works that way on live and test if you're curious about it.
The above, combined with the Nerf to Singularity, means that MoF/Thaum will be the new king of DoT death. (Which ends up being the king of healing, FYI.) I say this as there is no longer any reason to ever use Singularity over Furious Immolation as FI is better in any situation with the daze. I doubt the same could be said of Maelstrom of Chaos which essentially means Spellstorm is dead in the water for Control.
Cws main issues in pvp is that ones they get focused they have no defence left and go down fast then any other class making them prime target.
The fireshield spell would at least punish the infidels that dare to attack the mighty wizzy ). (it works so that if you attack the wizard you get as much dam as you deliver as long as fireshield is active(yes this dam is firedam and can be negated but still)).
Stonskin had 2 versions 1 it was active for a certain period of time and made the wizard immune to pure physical dam, version 2 absorbed a number attacks based on the wizards lvl.
Given these very simple options would make room for some breathing space for cws in pvp and if tested so that they dont give to much or to little I think they could actually contribute to a much more fun pvp experiance without tipping the balance either way....
I remember only one time when MoC was a wanted skill - it was able to interrupt Valindra, and it was a bug which was fixed. Never before it or after it this end game SS daily power was of any use.
SpellStorm end powers are:
1. Shard, which will be nerfed to only knock down foes, damage part will be of no value.
2. Maelstrom of Chaos which was, is and will remain useless. I don't know any CW that would use it. Not a single one.
3. Eye of the Storm which will be useless as well, once you combine it with longer casting time and 25s. ICD.
Can you see this, Ladies and Gants? We are talking about SpellStorm's final powers. Daily terribly weak forever, encounter and passive both nerfed. One would think end powers should be most rewarding. How come Maelstrom is not even half as good as MoF's Furious Immolation? (And now FI will have more damage to it, too). This will make SpellStorm Mage a rare species indeed.
Or maybe it would be a good idea to finally make MoC of some use (increase damage, area of effect, longer interruption/daze/faster casting time/you name it).
Not sure why my original post was deleted on this however... I saved it anyway...
Here is the Character, I'm sure you can verify this on your servers and have the access to copy it and use it to verify.
It is using YOUR full Black Ice gear you just made for this expansion.
This is a high geared Character at almost a 17k gear score and with a 7600 power wearing all your Black Ice gear and Black Ice Corrupted Orb and Greater Vorpal.
THIS is from YOUR tooltip on Live.... for Shards of Endless Avalanche with that 7600 Power.
On Live I do about 7200 damage on Shardplosion with it.... AT a 7600 Power score. That with Transcended Master Feated... the Recast time on that is 13 seconds as you can see in your tooltip... That's with a seriously geared character...
AND as an MoF who does NOT have Eye of the Storm.... to Guarantee Crits. This is the Top Tier Highest level Capstone Power of the CW class, and our strongest spell in the chart as it should be...
It does whopping 533 damage PER second... Per Target... That's less damage per second than even the First level spells and some of our At Wills. Any amount of testing AT ALL will tell you this spell is not and never has been "overpowered".... in fact it ONLY does lot of damage on CRIT in an ENORMOUS amount of mobs... and the ONLY way that can happen is if you overdid the dungeons with mass mobs in a way that prevents the other Striker (that's Single Target damage in D&D) from participation.
It CAN crit up to around 20k damage give or take, on an MoF who does not have Eye of the Storm to guarantee Crits.... and with Greater and Perfect Vorpals.
Mind you this is the HIGHEST level encounter spell of the entire class.... that comes down from the old spell Meteor Swarm which was the highest level most damaging spell of the Magic User.
Whoever told you this spell is "overpowered" in this game was obviously lying... that's 7200 damage with a 13 second recast timer... for roughly 533 damage per second per target.... WITH an uber geared character. And because its not an Auto Hit spell can WIFF entirely netting you ZERO damage.
----
Now... having been over to Preview... to give you the ACTUAL damage... WITH the SAME character I just posted...
Shards (the Capstone High level Power of the CW) is now doing about 2700 damage on Shardplosion... at a 13sec Recast timer.... for a whopping.... 207 damage per second...
Chill Strike (the 1st level spell) does about this much damage when Tabbed in the Mastery slot.
This is now even lower than ALL other AoEs of much much lower level... Did you REALLY think this one through or are you just knee jerking it according to what other people whined about or claimed? Because this one took all of 2 seconds to test.
Did you actually THINK bout what you did?
This is with a 16.8k Geared Character with a 7600 power score.... let alone a 12k-13k average mage who only has about 4000-5000 power... what did you just do to the lower geared "average" mages....
Again it takes 2 seconds to check this out... its not that hard... easy to verify and I know you can easily do it on my character.
What were you thinking? Were you afraid of Spellstorms..... repeatedly critting for 20k+ on this one with uber gear?
Ok Fair enough....
Well you've solved that one now.... by moving the recast on the Eye of the Storm down..... to around what 30 seconds which is far more than the recast timer or 12-13 seconds on the encounter power after Recovery score?
So obviously at this point you can revert this one back to normal LIVE side damage.... as its damage was never "overpowered" in the first place... right?
My test on Steal Time (One slot lower level spell) shows this one to be doing about 4000-5000 damage AS a lower level spell and SURPASSES the Capstone Power of the class AND adds a 3 second stun on it... WITH a shorter recast timer... AND unlike Shards its easy to hit with and doesn't require pushing... OR have nearly the bugs with throwing it almost sideways at times regardless of where you aimed it (any amount of testing or checking on your part would also show this too).
And on top of that, you've ALSO destroyed TWO paragon trees of the CW class... the Spellstorm most benefits from.
I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here... that you are NOT attempting to completely destroy and obliterate the Spellstorm Paragon path as whole... but you haven't left me much wiggle room here. I am TRYING to believe you are not intentionally destroying Spellstorms as a whole. But you are making that very difficult.... AND all of these things would have taken less than two seconds to find.
Yes MoF is just fine... I was able to run round without troubles.... Icy Terrain is as worthless as ever... but overall the changes to MoF's DoTs were good ones. So you're obviously not trying to destroy that one...
What exactly is your point here?
Are you thinking this through with a CLEAR head... or one based on what other people told you to think... because this stuff takes only two seconds to figure out that its WAY over the top.
And even your suggestion of adding a 3 second prone to Shards is STILL highly questionable....
Again I ask what was your intention with this obviously heavy handed and either negligently ignorant... (or possibly willfully malicious action) that is destroying our counterparts... the Spellstorms...
Oh, and if you think Icy Terrain is useless, think again. Oppressor MoF with CoI and Icy Terrain is going to be the next hot build. Shattered is really strong, any group getting hit by CoI can then be frozen indefinitely. SS mage can even freeze hypothetically infinite targets, between IT and SS giving 5 stacks of chill.
Insanely out of line???
Have you lost your mind?
Its 530 damage per second at a 17k Gear score... AND 7600 power... and a whopping 1 second stun...
Its not even in question... its NOT and never was "overpowered".
Chill Strike is a 1st level NEWBIE spell...
Shards of Endless Avalanche is a TOP TIER, CAPSTONE power of the CW...
That this was NOT an overpowered.... spell isn't even in question.
I have more than adequately demonstrated that....
Icy Terrain may be fine with Oppressors (if they're not grouped with people who can't play around Icy Terrain), but we're not all Oppressors and don't want to be. Nor do we all want to be MoF.
No, you haven't. You haven't even composed a reasonable argument to demonstrate that. I'll try, if you like. "An ability's dps, based on its damage divided by its cooldown, determines whether or not the ability is balanced. Shard has worse dps than Magic Missile, therefore it is balanced"
Oh wait, that's a really ****ty argument. Disregarding the obvious ad absurdum of an ability that hits for 60000 AOE damage (before crit) on a 120 second cooldown (oh, it only kills every enemy in PvP instantly, it's totally balanced!), you're comparing AOE (with a high target cap, no less) to single target, ignoring the effects of burst compared to sustained damage, ignoring shard rolling damage, and ignoring cast times to deal damage (which was notably brought up as being important by the devs as they nerfed Magic Missile). All of these benefit Shard. Shard deals obscene burst damage as-is on live. If you haven't encountered it in PvP and been run over for 20k damage, or run CN and watched every group melt to chained shards, you haven't seen Shard.
And yes, final powers doing similar damage to initial ones is appropriate. No one complains that Steal Time does comparable damage to Chill Strike. Most powers should be competitive choices, their position on the skill tree should be a matter of learning curve or specialization, not outright power. This isn't directly 4E D&D with n[W] damage scaling on powers, we understand how to scale things here, it's not difficult. See Rain of Arrows, Lashing Blade, Takedown, Conduit of Ice, and Lunging Strike. All early powers, all very strong.
What does "can't play around Icy Terrain" mean? You do the exact same thing CW's have done from time immemorial, group mobs and sit them in some AOE. Are some teams unable to play around Shard, or Conduit of Ice? Because those are also AOEs.
Finally, a good point. Yes, MoF Oppressor being obviously stronger than other builds from these changes is a bad thing. We like diversity and choices. I'd argue that the reduced nerf to EoTS makes SS fairly competitive for damage (25% uptime is still a LOT), and the Sudden Storm nerf hurts a lot (then again it's still the best pure damage power, as it should be), but Renegade has been gutted, and Thaumaturge has similarly lost most of its shine.
IBS hits MUCH harder than Takedown or Restoring Strike.
IBS hits 50% harder than Takedown/Restoring Strike, with a cooldown maybe 2s longer. I'd agree it's overall stronger than Takedown/Restoring Strike, but I'd also feel comfortable saying it's a bit high in terms of damage, even with its downsides, especially with its AOE properties.
PvP????
What the Hell are you talking about?
Get a clue here... this game wasn't designed for PvP, the powers were designed for PvE where mobs have hundreds of thousands to MILLIONS of health.
Shards is right on target with where it SHOULD be on LIVE... ergo... about 7000 damage WITH at 7600 power score.... Every 13 seconds... AND its a TOP TIER HIGHEST one in the tree... It BETTER be doing a whole hell of a lot more than Chill Strike that is a Level 1 NEWBIE spell... which is what happens on Preview.
So that 7000 damage in a 16.8k Gear Score with a 7600 power every ... ohhh 13 seconds is pretty low ALREADY FOR that kind of upper tier gear score... its only about 530 damage per second
I do not know what form of logic you are using to get where you are... but whatever it is... its not even close to reality.
Icy Terrain does approximately 500 damage per tick on my testing on Preview. That is SERIOUSLY underpowered and of highly questionable merit being that the mobs are MOBILE in this game.... and don't tend to stay on if for more than a Second without throwing another spell ON TOP of it to add chill stacks fast enough.... so it even sucks as a control spell.
Yeah fantasy doesn't meet reality very well my friend.
For the record here... My Magic Missile in that gear score does about 800-900 damage per missile EACH SECOND... that's how seriously underpowered Icy Terrain is...
SO in order to get it to even work properly you have to build the ENTIRE CHARACTER.... FEATED around ONE spell that is the weakest one in the CW arsenal.
THIS is supposedly your Idea of a "balanced" CW?
Lol Dont' make me laugh... Do you even play CW as a main? I highly doubt it. Hell do you even Play OTHER characters? Trust me their damage is WAYYYY over that.
I wouldn't put my money on Icy Terrain being much of ANYTHING... let alone even worth a spell slot.
Don't create it and we will not buy it, will not work for it, and can not acquire it.
*** Are you familiar with what happened to the Netherese? They Harnessed the power that was there in the world, created a floating citadel for themselves. YOUR CW (rework) is Cataclysmic to those who wield the power of magic!***
We've gone from 4th edition to ADND while everyone else is still in 4th edition...
May Gygax haunt you in your dreams.
The current situation is out of hand. Surely you agree something has to be done. 4cws and 1GWF is the optimal party for any dungeon. It's crazy!
Thats what I meant , only one viable build left and at the moment it is pointless even testing since most of what is up on preview either isn't working or is slated for change , meh whatever I'm just making a Warlock lol
Oh and if you think Thaumaturge is bad try out Renegade Spellstorm , it's spells are now as powerful as the toys teachers give you in science class that demonstrate how friction produces a electric charge XD
When you throw 20 mobs at a party, you need more control. That's not the problem the CW created rather one created by game content designer. Tougher Fewer mobs would be more challenging and allow GF to hold agro. Also could have Friendly (mobs) inside Dungeons that we will need to keep alive would make guardian fighters more needed as well. Spawning pools such as Spell Plague are Great ideas. Nerf Current Gear (High Vizier Set)
OR
change it to Storm Cage...
Storm Cage...
STORM CAGE.....
Actually if you think about it, it will make SS paragon encounter way more useful than sudden storm since sudden storm gives you what? Damage? Of course if nobody is using a power that can make you miss it that is (some powers can "negate" CW powers like trying to fire SoEA/SS/Oppresing Force when, for example, enemies are under Singu effect).
On the other hand there is Storm Cage, a power that can control enemies, hold them in one place, stun perhaps or add a little DoT on spell mastery slot and BAM! We have power useful for everyone in a party (both PvP and PvE)
PS I may be a little too persistent on this power but still... it's a way better choice than Sudden Storm for Control Wizard
so i finally have a GWF at lvl60 and hence i can see no reason to nerf CWs (i do have a CW at lvl60 too)
i mean my GWF is only 9k and from the looks of it i can pretty much say that i can beat my CW (14k GS) to pulp with a little hardship while my CW will still not be able to do that as easily even after being at 14kGS.
WHY IN THE F-ing Name of F do You (Devs) wanna nerf CWs further more ( didnt you already nerf CWs using master of flames abilities by a total of 30% which is huge to start with!?
im so sad for my CW after coming to know about the 'further nerfing in mod4' news
1)Nerf CW's
2)Buff several other Classes to match them
3)Redesign all Dungeons, Skirmishes, and Events to rely on something other than masses of Adds spawning and using shear raw numbers as the only "Trick" to the Fights.
Option two would almost certainly cause more problems than it would fix and option three would be difficult and expensive, so option one it is.
'Wen considered the nature of time and understood that the universe is, instant by instant, recreated anew. Therefore, he understood, there is in truth no past, only a memory of the past. Blink your eyes, and the world you see next did not exist when you closed them. Therefore, he said, the only appropriate state of the mind is surprise. The only appropriate state of the heart is joy. The sky you see now, you have never seen before. The perfect moment is now. Be glad of it.' Terry Pratchet The Thief Of Time
Yes but option 3 would be the "proper" fix. Option 1 just alienates the playerbase that used to play CW's.
I've already retired my CW. I retired my TR after he was nerfed.
At the end of the day, I don't believe they are even a step closer to achieving their goal of "balancing".
I've played a TR since I started, and even after all the nerfs I'm still playing with him. I play a class because I find it fun, not because I can or not top the charts.
Like Jorifice said, it was probably the easiest and most effective solution.
He ?
Maybe you chose bad skills feats cuz any one know CW with 1200 LS can solo almost all T2 dungeon with 14 k GS in HV
armor set . If y need proof i can post a picture from my wife CW lesser p fire enchant soloed E.Karru or whatever y chose.
But 14k GS GWF with lesser p fire cant solo T2 i am almost 100% sure .In preview they cant even survive 4 adds in dungeons.
Also i tested oppressor can still solo E.Karru or other t2 instances in peview(same CW just oppressor tree) the time to finish is much slower but the CC from oppressor it brutal and powefull.
y tryed to run CN with my 18,5k gwf on preview if i agroed more than 5-6 mobs >insta dead
Actually Sudden Storm is utilized a LOT by Spellstorms that know what they're doing.
Its almost a standard part of a Dungeon Rotation. Usually you're looking at CoI, Sudden Storm, Steal Time, and Shards on a Spellstorm.
Spellstorms use the Thunder and Lightning fast strike approach (lol no surprise for a Lightning Storm Mage).
They teleport in, Steal Time on a group of mobs to set them up in a line... use Sudden Storm on them so they can hit them all in a line. Then use a finisher like Shards for the big kaboom to knock them all down. Ergo.. the Thunder and Lightning approach... which is pretty fitting for a Spellstorm.
I'm not sure why you seem to think "control" means control by position. In D&D it actually means AoE damage, not the type of control you're thinking of. While that's a part of it... AoE damage is considered control.
They use it because of its damage but with this update: almost nobody will use CoI (reduced damage, doesn't proc from thaum feat anymore-some oppressors/MoFs may use it due to freeze) and sudden storm gets 30% dmg nerf and increased CD.
Also how do you see CC being AoE damage here? It's not p&p D&D you know. Lack of proper "position control" here may cause quick death from surrounding enemies.
We have other classes to do damage to enemies, otherwise there would be no need for HR or even GWF