ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2014
Here's a solution then, Front Line Surge becomes a steam rolling gap closer. Tada!
So since now you made it very clear you are just complaining it doesn't move them I am sure GF's and GWF's would absolutely love a buff which made them also charge ahead 30 feet.
So here's the question...do you really want to give the additional mobility? If not I suggest you seriously consider silently walking away.
But that's been my thought all along. That balance means looking at EVERY classes' capabilities, not just qqing about what one class can do versus others.
Just because people talk about one issues at a time doesn't mean they don't acknowledge others exist. We're currently talking about how the game's strongest melee class (as well as its poor cousin) wields a tool that denies any escape attempt through simply a one-click of a button -- hence, the prioritization in discussion.
If this was a discussion about how CWs or HRs dish out insta-cast CCs and have no negative factor and just fire off arrows and spells while being in the close proximity of a blade weapon wooshing about, then I'd have some relevant opinion about it.
As it is, we're talking about how a frail CW can try to teleport away from a GWF, then the distance is instantly negated by a single click of Threatening Rush, and then as the CW desperately teleports and succeeds in dodging the Takedown, but then gets hit by a Roar or FSL from range, and ends up dying.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
As it is, we're talking about how a frail CW can try to teleport away from a GWF, then the distance is instantly negated by a single click of Threatening Rush, and then as the CW desperately teleports and succeeds in dodging the Takedown, but then gets hit by a Roar or FSL from range, and ends up dying.
Which is why most people agree the giving IV to GWF was a mistake that the devs are not going to take back. The problem is on the GWF side, but you end up hurting the GF with any changes to IV, which they honestly do not need happening to them because of their cousin.
If this was a discussion about how CWs or HRs dish out insta-cast CCs and have no negative factor and just fire off arrows and spells while being in the close proximity of a blade weapon wooshing about, then I'd have some relevant opinion about it.
This discussion is really just asking to remove a gap closer. Even if it doesn't move the GF and GWF it is a gap closer as it allows gives them a little more time to get in range of something which is a melee attack.
So if you really want to complain it's not moving them I really would not mind also being tossed a little closer to my intended target.
But if you really want to just blindly take away the gap closer whether it moves them or not...
Then you can not take without giving. We'll also gladly take your ability to cast spells when being punched in the face.
Considering how the system is, changing FSL into a gap-closer is actually a nerf. That's one less CC to be chain-spammed.
The only time this is a "nerf" is in a situation where you are already in direct combat with another melee fighter. Typically FLS is used as an opener even against melee classes or as a 'look there's an enemy on the other side of the node I want to kill, knock him down.'
9/10 times I would be benefitted by it moving me as well as knocking enemies down.
Which is why most people agree the giving IV to GWF was a mistake that the devs are not going to take back. The problem is on the GWF side, but you end up hurting the GF with any changes to IV, which they honestly do not need happening to them because of their cousin.
The problem is for both sides. GF players may seek to weasle out of this one by arguing all the beef's with the GWFs and not with GFs, but in principle both the GF and GWF holds exactly the same problems which spell out .... for the players on the receiving end.
Its only that the GWF is so much obviously overboard in everything, that people have their attention glued onto it.
...
Melees -- heavy melee types, at that -- usually consist of a CC and a gap-closer. You use the gap-closer to zero-in to the target, and then you CC it to buy enough time to deal a certain amount of damage before the target pulls away again. Until the gap-closer and CC recharges, the melees becomes vulnerable to ranged fire from the enemy. In the end, how each players manage their gains and losses while they take "turns" will decide whether the melee wins, or the ranged.
Except, in NW, the two heavy melee classes don't have any turns. Once distance is initially closed then there's no escape. DCs or CWs are practically dead in every meaning of the word, and the HR may survive if he simply gives up any attempt to fight at all and just runs... runs.. runs.. runs.. runs.. (why is the Pathfinder so powerful against melees? Because its reverted to a summon + DoT tactic that can keep up the attack while you are running)
GFs, really should be asking for something else, instead of defending something problematic. IMO they should ask for buffing up the shield mechanics so it really does make a difference, as well as more diverse attack patterns and powers that broadens the options, instead of the current [prone - prone - <do nothing and BLOCK until recharge> - rinse and repeat], boring style.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
This discussion is really just asking to remove a gap closer. Even if it doesn't move the GF and GWF it is a gap closer as it allows gives them a little more time to get in range of something which is a melee attack.
So if you really want to complain it's not moving them I really would not mind also being tossed a little closer to my intended target.
But if you really want to just blindly take away the gap closer whether it moves them or not...
Then you can not take without giving. We'll also gladly take your ability to cast spells when being punched in the face.
So in your calculation, the existence of all the other CCs and gap-closers as well as the Unstoppable mechanics, which no other class can ever compare in being so much blessed to hold so many top-class tools in its arsenal at a given time... just amounts up to zero. Its just not there. Doesn't matter at all.
Since 'we' take away FSL, its 'unfair', so the others must 'give something back'.
I'm at a loss of words.
The only time this is a "nerf" is in a situation where you are already in direct combat with another melee fighter. Typically FLS is used as an opener even against melee classes or as a 'look there's an enemy on the other side of the node I want to kill, knock him down.'
9/10 times I would be benefitted by it moving me as well as knocking enemies down.
Oh, so it's a gap closer with a KB function fused into it. Let's not stop there, then.
Let's revert Unstoppable to what it is in D&D4th as well, and then you've got a deal.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I mostly feel that for a class *with NO shield* shouldn't have such a wide attack, I understand the range but the width of FLS on GWF is kinda a joke, it's like 3-4 times their characters width. With GF's and their shield thats also understandable, but GWF without a shield shouldn't have such a wide attack.
This discussion is really just asking to remove a gap closer. Even if it doesn't move the GF and GWF it is a gap closer as it allows gives them a little more time to get in range of something which is a melee attack.
So if you really want to complain it's not moving them I really would not mind also being tossed a little closer to my intended target.
But if you really want to just blindly take away the gap closer whether it moves them or not...
Then you can not take without giving. We'll also gladly take your ability to cast spells when being punched in the face.
And also, while I dodge I can't cast, and you negate my only defensive move with a button. How this is fair?
The only time this is a "nerf" is in a situation where you are already in direct combat with another melee fighter. Typically FLS is used as an opener even against melee classes or as a 'look there's an enemy on the other side of the node I want to kill, knock him down.'
9/10 times I would be benefitted by it moving me as well as knocking enemies down.
GWF already have a gap closer, and a spammable one at that. Threatening rush. And they can sprint. Nobody can escape from them just with these 2 skills (except maybe hr, and I suppose that's why they keep telling everybody how strong they are, just because don't die in one rotation against them).
Once stamina is depleted and they are on target, there is just death for the opponent (they start the cc chain)
Why they should also hit someone from afar?!?!? And a prone, nonetheless.
And, with very few exception, caster in this game have to stop in one place to cast. We cannot cast on the run. We have already an inherent disadvantage as caster.
The problem is for both sides. GF players may seek to weasle out of this one by arguing all the beef's with the GWFs and not with GFs, but in principle both the GF and GWF holds exactly the same problems which spell out .... for the players on the receiving end.
Its only that the GWF is so much obviously overboard in everything, that people have their attention glued onto it.
...
Melees -- heavy melee types, at that -- usually consist of a CC and a gap-closer. You use the gap-closer to zero-in to the target, and then you CC it to buy enough time to deal a certain amount of damage before the target pulls away again. Until the gap-closer and CC recharges, the melees becomes vulnerable to ranged fire from the enemy. In the end, how each players manage their gains and losses while they take "turns" will decide whether the melee wins, or the ranged.
Except, in NW, the two heavy melee classes don't have any turns. Once distance is initially closed then there's no escape. DCs or CWs are practically dead in every meaning of the word, and the HR may survive if he simply gives up any attempt to fight at all and just runs... runs.. runs.. runs.. runs.. (why is the Pathfinder so powerful against melees? Because its reverted to a summon + DoT tactic that can keep up the attack while you are running)
GFs, really should be asking for something else, instead of defending something problematic. IMO they should ask for buffing up the shield mechanics so it really does make a difference, as well as more diverse attack patterns and powers that broadens the options, instead of the current [prone - prone - <do nothing and BLOCK until recharge> - rinse and repeat], boring style.
Well put.
But in the end, that's why a CW/DC/HR ends up being a more involved playstyle... when theyre outside the melee classes range, they HAVE that time to let their abilities cooldown. Meanwhile, the GF is continuously getting pinged, or the GWF HAS to take damage to work up that unstoppable again, don't they?
Distance ends up being a ranged classes' defense AND offense, whereas melee distance, and the ability to reach melee distance, is what fighters are trying to get to even start the fight. The fight ALWAYS(unless surprise attacked) begins with the ranged classes pinging away at the melee for 80 FEET BEFORE THE MELEE CAN EVEN GET THERE.
Personally, never liked iv gwfs having threatening rush. BUT gfs did need something to keep up with mages, didn't they? You look at CW abilities + high recovery(best class for it, I might add) and you see that they can rotate their encounters at nearly twice the rate of GWFs and GFs. How is it fair when most wizards can blow all their encounters, and nearly do it all again, to a melee class BEFORE they even get to the threatening rush/frontline surge/bull's charge range?
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
GFs, really should be asking for something else, instead of defending something problematic.
And back full circle to the beginning..
CW's should probably ask for something else that is a little more problematic such as unstoppable giving 100% control immunity.
FLS isn't the cause of most of the GWF's problems. The GWF has been a monster before the new paragon. Sure it made it worse but as has been pointed out there were a lot of buffs along the way to GWF's and a lot of nerfs to the other classes. You are literally picking the least problematic part of the equation.
As you said when a GWF catches you there's no escape. Why is this? Unstoppable and Sprint.
Why isn't it Frontline Surge? Because plenty of CW's get away from my GF because after FLS and Lunging Strike he really does not have a lot left in the way of closing gaps. Even bull charge, while a gap closer, also generates a gap that has to be closed by Threatening Rush. If all of my other prones are on cooldown or the CW dodges before I use a power they get away.
This is just basic deduction. None of you are complaining about FLS on a GF. None of you (except Ian but he doesn't count).
If it's not FLS on a GF which is preventing you from getting away then while the GWF is certainly aided by FLS there are other factors which are the problem behind the problem.
So in your calculation, the existence of all the other CCs and gap-closers as well as the Unstoppable mechanics, which no other class can ever compare in being so much blessed to hold so many top-class tools in its arsenal at a given time... just amounts up to zero.
Ooooh we may be getting close. You're understanding there are other factors which make a GWF powerful while the GF isn't similarly blessed.
Please just think about that.
Hold a GWF in one hand and a GF in the other. One is really strong and one is not.
Logically...if you wanted to figure out why one is strong and one is not the first place you should look is at their differences rather than their similarities. Blaming the majority of it on a power which they share in common just doesn't make any sense.
If you really want to balance the GWF then the first place to start is in their differences before coming back to FLS.
GWF already have a gap closer, and a spammable one at that. Threatening rush. And they can sprint.
Sprint? I wish I had sprint. I have a shield.
And Threatening rush has a nasty delay after the attack animation. It's a nice little hop on a GF but it's only really good on a GWF in conjunction with sprint.
This is why I am telling you guys you are completely ignoring the complete picture. You're saying it's okay to nerf FLS because of sprint....
You may not be aware of this but only the GWF has sprint...you know...the actual class you are complaining about without considering the fact FLS doesn't bother you when a GF uses it...
You're understanding there are other factors which make a GWF powerful while the GF isn't similarly blessed.
Now imagine, the GF had unstoppable when their entire guard meter is broken, now that would make sense for a tank. Would it be overpowered, most likely but it still would make more sense for a GF to have it instead of the GWF.
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As for GWF's, untoppable should have it's utility-addons split up into the three paragon trees.
Increased attack speed > destroyer, temporary hp > sentinel, anti cc > the other spec (forgot it's name tbh). That way it becomes rather an either or choice, instead of a have it all tab ability.
Here's a solution then, Front Line Surge becomes a steam rolling gap closer. Tada!
So since now you made it very clear you are just complaining it doesn't move them I am sure GF's and GWF's would absolutely love a buff which made them also charge ahead 30 feet.
So here's the question...do you really want to give the additional mobility? If not I suggest you seriously consider silently walking away.
That would be too removed from its original version, which is not a gap closer.
Now imagine, the GF had unstoppable when their entire guard meter is broken, now that would make sense for a tank. Would it be overpowered, most likely but it still would make more sense for a GF to have it instead of the GWF.
Realistically you would be having GF left and right trying to make you break their shield on purpose if that happens. It would be kind of funny too seeing GF waddle up to you with their shield up just egging you on.
As for GWF's, untoppable should have it's utility-addons split up into the three paragon trees.
Increased attack speed > destroyer, temporary hp > sentinel, anti cc > the other spec (forgot it's name tbh).
Personally I'd rather have unstoppable have its effects decreased and have the different specs restore specific sections back to full (similar to what you put). You would be slaughtered left and right if you aren't an Instigator if it was split into 3 groups, that's not a contest.
If the CW had less CW resistance then it does now, but much longer CC times, and the fighter classes had higher CC resist, but much little CC times, (prones and such) then maybe they would be comparable together, fighter classes can get close to you in such a short time (less then a few seconds) it's impractical to even play a ranged class in this game
If the CW had less CW resistance then it does now, but much longer CC times, and the fighter classes had higher CC resist, but much little CC times, (prones and such) then maybe they would be comparable together, fighter classes can get close to you in such a short time (less then a few seconds) it's impractical to even play a ranged class in this game
Ah, but heres the problem... CWs ALSO have prone abilities too, don't they(shard, ice knife)? You cant even activate unstoppable from prone(tried it many times. facing multiple cws in pvp often times leads to prone=dead)
Plus, CWs/HRs/DCs have dodges(kind of teleport, in the case of HRs). A fighter can get to a mage, but with a few clicks of the button, be gone again already. Dodging away from an opponents ends up being by far easier to do than wasting your stamina just trying to get to the mage, isn't it? Also, GFs don't even have a sprint, do they? They have "plod along at tank speed, hoping the CW doesn't drain you guard meter too fast"(hint: they do).
Plus, don't even get me started on when they fix repel to work right again. Ask a GF/GWF how annoyingly simple and how often a CW could just spam repel in the past...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
FLS isn't the cause of most of the GWF's problems.
...[If FLS isn't] preventing you from getting away [from a GF] then while the GWF is certainly aided by FLS there are other factors which are the problem behind the problem.
If you really aren't just making a complaint because the game is based on Fourth Edition rather than taken word for word and made alterations to give melee classes gap closers then ask yourself what makes the GWF OP because while FLS helps if it isn't OP on a GF then logically it is only an augmentation of the true problem(s).
To make my point utterly clear a wise person once taught me anger is not an emotion. It's a mask.
You may think that's ludicrous but it's true. Why? Any time you are angry it is because you have another emotion causing it. You may be embarrassed, depressed, hurt, jealous. In the case of this thread I'm angry because I am frustrated. But no matter what you are angry because another emotion is causing you to be angry.
In this regard FLS is anger. Hell I am sure you are even angry you're being knocked down from a range. But you are not dying because of FLS. You're dying for various other reasons and you are blaming FLS. Even if FLS was taken away I promise you would still be dying. So for the love of GF's everywhere stop saying you're angry and start considering why you are angry.
Ah, but heres the problem... CWs ALSO have prone abilities too, don't they(shard, ice knife)? You cant even activate unstoppable from prone(tried it many times. facing multiple cws in pvp often times leads to prone=dead)
Plus, CWs/HRs/DCs have dodges(kind of teleport, in the case of HRs). A fighter can get to a mage, but with a few clicks of the button, be gone again already. Dodging away from an opponents ends up being by far easier to do than wasting your stamina just trying to get to the mage, isn't it? Also, GFs don't even have a sprint, do they? They have "plod along at tank speed, hoping the CW doesn't drain you guard meter too fast"(hint: they do).
Plus, don't even get me started on when they fix repel to work right again. Ask a GF/GWF how annoyingly simple and how often a CW could just spam repel in the past...
Threatening rush has roughly the same range as a CW teleport. so 1 dodge shouldn't equal 1 at-will... or should it?
Threatening rush has roughly the same range as a CW teleport. so 1 dodge shouldn't equal 1 at-will... or should it?
It's about half of a teleport.
It really is a short range. Bull Rush actually knocks enemies beyond Threatening Rush's range.
If I had to put it on something physical I would say you would be stretching it to say it was the radius of a Thorn Ward. Probably closer to 75% of the radius.
You are likely experiencing GWF's Sprinting and using Threatening Rush.
EDIT - If I don't put this in I know it will come back to bite me: radius is the distance from the center of a circle to any outer point.
Frontline Surge is currently too long-range to be a melee attack.
You do realize that 30' is basically almost 1/3 the range of basically every CW/DC/HR ranged ability, right?
Let me state this then(and this is coming from a guy who plays CW):
All ranged attacks are currently too long-range to be ranged attacks then. To complain about frontline surge's range is laughable. Its the prone effect that matters to me in this discussion. A class that employs their powers for 50 FEET BEFORE FRONTLINE SURGE EVEN BECOMES AVAILABLE is just about as, if not more, op then Frontline Surge itself.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
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spike0337Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 2Arc User
I'm the OP. The "original version in pnp" (screenshot) is taken from 4e resource book. As mentioned before, gap closers are already convenient ways for them to get close to ranged classes, 30' range for a melee attack is too much.
You does remind me of Bull Charge here. Although I don't remember Bull Charge has the same 30' range as FLS, I now recall that GF sometimes doesn't need a body contact to trigger that power. That might be a beneficial bug (for GF) and needs to be looked into, too.
Bull Charge never need body contact and in Mod 2 (I think it was ) the range was increased so that it could be used as a better gap closers.So no it's not bugged.
"original version in pnp" (screenshot) is taken from 4e resource book."Did you not read the part where i said D&D rules can not be the same for MMOs?In D&D melee class's can just brake out a bow or throw a wpn to hit ranged class's range.In MMO if melee class's didn't have a way to hit range they'd be killed easy.
"30' range for a melee attack is too much."Don't cw have a average range of 80'?So 30' is less then half that dis. right?So you can set back at 80' and hit melee.Your saying it's to long because you can't teleport out of it's range.Yet most melee class's can't doge from a range atk that's comes from a range class atk that's with in 30'.So why should a cw be able to teleport out of a melee class's melee range?
Yes gf have a shield to block but that gos down in a few hits and they be lucky if they can keep it up till they get to a ranged class's 80' away.Is it because it prone you?Don't cw prone from 80' away?Is it the aoe part?Don't cw do aoe's from 80'?
Now is it fair for range to easily kill melee before they even get one hit in?But out of curiosity what should Frontline Surge range be and other gap closers range be?
If you really aren't just making a complaint because the game is based on Fourth Edition rather than taken word for word and made alterations to give melee classes gap closers then ask yourself what makes the GWF OP because while FLS helps if it isn't OP on a GF then logically it is only an augmentation of the true problem(s).
To make my point utterly clear a wise person once taught me anger is not an emotion. It's a mask.
You may think that's ludicrous but it's true. Why? Any time you are angry it is because you have another emotion causing it. You may be embarrassed, depressed, hurt, jealous. In the case of this thread I'm angry because I am frustrated. But no matter what you are angry because another emotion is causing you to be angry.
In this regard FLS is anger. Hell I am sure you are even angry you're being knocked down from a range. But you are not dying because of FLS. You're dying for various other reasons and you are blaming FLS. Even if FLS was taken away I promise you would still be dying. So for the love of GF's everywhere stop saying you're angry and start considering why you are angry.
I do think FLS is OP for GF, too. The reason is the same, a melee attack shouldn't have 30' range.
Being knocking down is enough to suffer from a series of consequence.
You do realize that 30' is basically almost 1/3 the range of basically every CW/DC/HR ranged ability, right?
Let me state this then(and this is coming from a guy who plays CW):
All ranged attacks are currently too long-range to be ranged attacks then. To complain about frontline surge's range is laughable. Its the prone effect that matters to me in this discussion. A class that employs their powers for 50 FEET BEFORE FRONTLINE SURGE EVEN BECOMES AVAILABLE is just about as, if not more, op then Frontline Surge itself.
We don't need to compare its range with ranged powers' ranges. It being a melee attack has 30' range is too much.
Bull Charge never need body contact and in Mod 2 (I think it was ) the range was increased so that it could be used as a better gap closers.So no it's not bugged.
"original version in pnp" (screenshot) is taken from 4e resource book."Did you not read the part where i said D&D rules can not be the same for MMOs?In D&D melee class's can just brake out a bow or throw a wpn to hit ranged class's range.In MMO if melee class's didn't have a way to hit range they'd be killed easy.
"30' range for a melee attack is too much."Don't cw have a average range of 80'?So 30' is less then half that dis. right?So you can set back at 80' and hit melee.Your saying it's to long because you can't teleport out of it's range.Yet most melee class's can't doge from a range atk that's comes from a range class atk that's with in 30'.So why should a cw be able to teleport out of a melee class's melee range?
Yes gf have a shield to block but that gos down in a few hits and they be lucky if they can keep it up till they get to a ranged class's 80' away.Is it because it prone you?Don't cw prone from 80' away?Is it the aoe part?Don't cw do aoe's from 80'?
Now is it fair for range to easily kill melee before they even get one hit in?But out of curiosity what should Frontline Surge range be and other gap closers range be?
Being able to knock back an opponent without any body contact surely is ridiculous. I will report that one later. Currently we need to get FLS sorted out.
It's just the combination of threatening rush with FLS + practically 110% mount speed sprint for almost 5 seconds, seriously degenerates all the other classes and they pale in comparison, which is kinda dumb. IV sentinel path was made for a less mobile character (gf) to be used to get close, but GWF can get close in many many many other ways.
Comments
So since now you made it very clear you are just complaining it doesn't move them I am sure GF's and GWF's would absolutely love a buff which made them also charge ahead 30 feet.
So here's the question...do you really want to give the additional mobility? If not I suggest you seriously consider silently walking away.
Just because people talk about one issues at a time doesn't mean they don't acknowledge others exist. We're currently talking about how the game's strongest melee class (as well as its poor cousin) wields a tool that denies any escape attempt through simply a one-click of a button -- hence, the prioritization in discussion.
If this was a discussion about how CWs or HRs dish out insta-cast CCs and have no negative factor and just fire off arrows and spells while being in the close proximity of a blade weapon wooshing about, then I'd have some relevant opinion about it.
As it is, we're talking about how a frail CW can try to teleport away from a GWF, then the distance is instantly negated by a single click of Threatening Rush, and then as the CW desperately teleports and succeeds in dodging the Takedown, but then gets hit by a Roar or FSL from range, and ends up dying.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Which is why most people agree the giving IV to GWF was a mistake that the devs are not going to take back. The problem is on the GWF side, but you end up hurting the GF with any changes to IV, which they honestly do not need happening to them because of their cousin.
Considering how the system is, changing FSL into a gap-closer is actually a nerf. That's one less CC to be chain-spammed.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
This discussion is really just asking to remove a gap closer. Even if it doesn't move the GF and GWF it is a gap closer as it allows gives them a little more time to get in range of something which is a melee attack.
So if you really want to complain it's not moving them I really would not mind also being tossed a little closer to my intended target.
But if you really want to just blindly take away the gap closer whether it moves them or not...
Then you can not take without giving. We'll also gladly take your ability to cast spells when being punched in the face.
The only time this is a "nerf" is in a situation where you are already in direct combat with another melee fighter. Typically FLS is used as an opener even against melee classes or as a 'look there's an enemy on the other side of the node I want to kill, knock him down.'
9/10 times I would be benefitted by it moving me as well as knocking enemies down.
The problem is for both sides. GF players may seek to weasle out of this one by arguing all the beef's with the GWFs and not with GFs, but in principle both the GF and GWF holds exactly the same problems which spell out .... for the players on the receiving end.
Its only that the GWF is so much obviously overboard in everything, that people have their attention glued onto it.
...
Melees -- heavy melee types, at that -- usually consist of a CC and a gap-closer. You use the gap-closer to zero-in to the target, and then you CC it to buy enough time to deal a certain amount of damage before the target pulls away again. Until the gap-closer and CC recharges, the melees becomes vulnerable to ranged fire from the enemy. In the end, how each players manage their gains and losses while they take "turns" will decide whether the melee wins, or the ranged.
Except, in NW, the two heavy melee classes don't have any turns. Once distance is initially closed then there's no escape. DCs or CWs are practically dead in every meaning of the word, and the HR may survive if he simply gives up any attempt to fight at all and just runs... runs.. runs.. runs.. runs.. (why is the Pathfinder so powerful against melees? Because its reverted to a summon + DoT tactic that can keep up the attack while you are running)
GFs, really should be asking for something else, instead of defending something problematic. IMO they should ask for buffing up the shield mechanics so it really does make a difference, as well as more diverse attack patterns and powers that broadens the options, instead of the current [prone - prone - <do nothing and BLOCK until recharge> - rinse and repeat], boring style.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
So in your calculation, the existence of all the other CCs and gap-closers as well as the Unstoppable mechanics, which no other class can ever compare in being so much blessed to hold so many top-class tools in its arsenal at a given time... just amounts up to zero. Its just not there. Doesn't matter at all.
Since 'we' take away FSL, its 'unfair', so the others must 'give something back'.
I'm at a loss of words.
Oh, so it's a gap closer with a KB function fused into it. Let's not stop there, then.
Let's revert Unstoppable to what it is in D&D4th as well, and then you've got a deal.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
GWF already have a gap closer, and a spammable one at that. Threatening rush. And they can sprint. Nobody can escape from them just with these 2 skills (except maybe hr, and I suppose that's why they keep telling everybody how strong they are, just because don't die in one rotation against them).
Once stamina is depleted and they are on target, there is just death for the opponent (they start the cc chain)
Why they should also hit someone from afar?!?!? And a prone, nonetheless.
And, with very few exception, caster in this game have to stop in one place to cast. We cannot cast on the run. We have already an inherent disadvantage as caster.
Well put.
But in the end, that's why a CW/DC/HR ends up being a more involved playstyle... when theyre outside the melee classes range, they HAVE that time to let their abilities cooldown. Meanwhile, the GF is continuously getting pinged, or the GWF HAS to take damage to work up that unstoppable again, don't they?
Distance ends up being a ranged classes' defense AND offense, whereas melee distance, and the ability to reach melee distance, is what fighters are trying to get to even start the fight. The fight ALWAYS(unless surprise attacked) begins with the ranged classes pinging away at the melee for 80 FEET BEFORE THE MELEE CAN EVEN GET THERE.
Personally, never liked iv gwfs having threatening rush. BUT gfs did need something to keep up with mages, didn't they? You look at CW abilities + high recovery(best class for it, I might add) and you see that they can rotate their encounters at nearly twice the rate of GWFs and GFs. How is it fair when most wizards can blow all their encounters, and nearly do it all again, to a melee class BEFORE they even get to the threatening rush/frontline surge/bull's charge range?
And back full circle to the beginning..
CW's should probably ask for something else that is a little more problematic such as unstoppable giving 100% control immunity.
FLS isn't the cause of most of the GWF's problems. The GWF has been a monster before the new paragon. Sure it made it worse but as has been pointed out there were a lot of buffs along the way to GWF's and a lot of nerfs to the other classes. You are literally picking the least problematic part of the equation.
As you said when a GWF catches you there's no escape. Why is this? Unstoppable and Sprint.
Why isn't it Frontline Surge? Because plenty of CW's get away from my GF because after FLS and Lunging Strike he really does not have a lot left in the way of closing gaps. Even bull charge, while a gap closer, also generates a gap that has to be closed by Threatening Rush. If all of my other prones are on cooldown or the CW dodges before I use a power they get away.
This is just basic deduction. None of you are complaining about FLS on a GF. None of you (except Ian but he doesn't count).
If it's not FLS on a GF which is preventing you from getting away then while the GWF is certainly aided by FLS there are other factors which are the problem behind the problem.
Ooooh we may be getting close. You're understanding there are other factors which make a GWF powerful while the GF isn't similarly blessed.
Please just think about that.
Hold a GWF in one hand and a GF in the other. One is really strong and one is not.
Logically...if you wanted to figure out why one is strong and one is not the first place you should look is at their differences rather than their similarities. Blaming the majority of it on a power which they share in common just doesn't make any sense.
If you really want to balance the GWF then the first place to start is in their differences before coming back to FLS.
Sprint? I wish I had sprint. I have a shield.
And Threatening rush has a nasty delay after the attack animation. It's a nice little hop on a GF but it's only really good on a GWF in conjunction with sprint.
This is why I am telling you guys you are completely ignoring the complete picture. You're saying it's okay to nerf FLS because of sprint....
You may not be aware of this but only the GWF has sprint...you know...the actual class you are complaining about without considering the fact FLS doesn't bother you when a GF uses it...
Now imagine, the GF had unstoppable when their entire guard meter is broken, now that would make sense for a tank. Would it be overpowered, most likely but it still would make more sense for a GF to have it instead of the GWF.
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As for GWF's, untoppable should have it's utility-addons split up into the three paragon trees.
Increased attack speed > destroyer, temporary hp > sentinel, anti cc > the other spec (forgot it's name tbh). That way it becomes rather an either or choice, instead of a have it all tab ability.
Personally I'd rather have unstoppable have its effects decreased and have the different specs restore specific sections back to full (similar to what you put). You would be slaughtered left and right if you aren't an Instigator if it was split into 3 groups, that's not a contest.
CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
Ah, but heres the problem... CWs ALSO have prone abilities too, don't they(shard, ice knife)? You cant even activate unstoppable from prone(tried it many times. facing multiple cws in pvp often times leads to prone=dead)
Plus, CWs/HRs/DCs have dodges(kind of teleport, in the case of HRs). A fighter can get to a mage, but with a few clicks of the button, be gone again already. Dodging away from an opponents ends up being by far easier to do than wasting your stamina just trying to get to the mage, isn't it? Also, GFs don't even have a sprint, do they? They have "plod along at tank speed, hoping the CW doesn't drain you guard meter too fast"(hint: they do).
Plus, don't even get me started on when they fix repel to work right again. Ask a GF/GWF how annoyingly simple and how often a CW could just spam repel in the past...
Frontline Surge is OK, the problem appeared when the devs made IV a gwf path. GF needs Frontline Surge as otherwise he would be very very static.
I'll quote myself too then. If you really aren't just making a complaint because the game is based on Fourth Edition rather than taken word for word and made alterations to give melee classes gap closers then ask yourself what makes the GWF OP because while FLS helps if it isn't OP on a GF then logically it is only an augmentation of the true problem(s).
To make my point utterly clear a wise person once taught me anger is not an emotion. It's a mask.
You may think that's ludicrous but it's true. Why? Any time you are angry it is because you have another emotion causing it. You may be embarrassed, depressed, hurt, jealous. In the case of this thread I'm angry because I am frustrated. But no matter what you are angry because another emotion is causing you to be angry.
In this regard FLS is anger. Hell I am sure you are even angry you're being knocked down from a range. But you are not dying because of FLS. You're dying for various other reasons and you are blaming FLS. Even if FLS was taken away I promise you would still be dying. So for the love of GF's everywhere stop saying you're angry and start considering why you are angry.
Threatening rush has roughly the same range as a CW teleport. so 1 dodge shouldn't equal 1 at-will... or should it?
CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
It's about half of a teleport.
It really is a short range. Bull Rush actually knocks enemies beyond Threatening Rush's range.
If I had to put it on something physical I would say you would be stretching it to say it was the radius of a Thorn Ward. Probably closer to 75% of the radius.
You are likely experiencing GWF's Sprinting and using Threatening Rush.
EDIT - If I don't put this in I know it will come back to bite me: radius is the distance from the center of a circle to any outer point.
You do realize that 30' is basically almost 1/3 the range of basically every CW/DC/HR ranged ability, right?
Let me state this then(and this is coming from a guy who plays CW):
All ranged attacks are currently too long-range to be ranged attacks then. To complain about frontline surge's range is laughable. Its the prone effect that matters to me in this discussion. A class that employs their powers for 50 FEET BEFORE FRONTLINE SURGE EVEN BECOMES AVAILABLE is just about as, if not more, op then Frontline Surge itself.
Bull Charge never need body contact and in Mod 2 (I think it was ) the range was increased so that it could be used as a better gap closers.So no it's not bugged.
"original version in pnp" (screenshot) is taken from 4e resource book."Did you not read the part where i said D&D rules can not be the same for MMOs?In D&D melee class's can just brake out a bow or throw a wpn to hit ranged class's range.In MMO if melee class's didn't have a way to hit range they'd be killed easy.
"30' range for a melee attack is too much."Don't cw have a average range of 80'?So 30' is less then half that dis. right?So you can set back at 80' and hit melee.Your saying it's to long because you can't teleport out of it's range.Yet most melee class's can't doge from a range atk that's comes from a range class atk that's with in 30'.So why should a cw be able to teleport out of a melee class's melee range?
Yes gf have a shield to block but that gos down in a few hits and they be lucky if they can keep it up till they get to a ranged class's 80' away.Is it because it prone you?Don't cw prone from 80' away?Is it the aoe part?Don't cw do aoe's from 80'?
Now is it fair for range to easily kill melee before they even get one hit in?But out of curiosity what should Frontline Surge range be and other gap closers range be?
Being knocking down is enough to suffer from a series of consequence.
Please give a number
CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]