Imho, the design of FLS is flawed at the very beginning. A fighter should not be given ranged attacks in any case.
Yes that is why the GF is so OP Most of the GF powers are ranged. FLS has a range of 30 Enforced Threat has a range of 30 Lunging strike has a range of 65 Bull charge has a range of 28 Threatening Rush has a range of 28. Now when your class has 0 dodges and 0 sprint this sort of range makes sense. Otherwise it could not engage anything. But when you put it on a class that has movement it becomes unballanced. And you really are neglecting FR. Look at it on a GF. An Ok hit and some hp when you fall to >15%. Now on a GWF falling to >15% means you took damage, which means you gained determination. The hit means you dealt damage which means you gained determination. So you went from 15% to 25% and gained a good bit of determination so Unstoppable which means ( because you are dain bramaged if you did not put 5 points into unstoppable recovery) is another 5% so what happened is you went from 15% to 30% while becoming an uncontrollable killing machine based on powers that your class was never supposed to have.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Every mmo ive played had the melee classes gain some sort of range attack, and/or a way to reach the mage. In this venue, Neverwinter should be no different.
Exactly.
I know CW's feel like the joke of PvP right now. Can't entirely blame them...
But asking to take away the tools that allow them to reach wizards is just not right. That is the definition of an "I-Win" button.
do u know how messed up combat with a range class wod be without the ability to close gap or immobilize from a decent distance.i have not seen any mmo where melee class dont have a type of range attack
Before the added paragon paths GWF was still a god in PvP if you built them a certain way. They did not have threatening rush but they did have unstoppable and their ability to sprint. There was still godly/deadly GWFs but a lot less of them.
Threatening Rush just opened up the class to the basic world of: "GWFs for Dummies". Like stated above you can make an "all ranged" GWF, not just one or two powers but all of them except maybe one at will.
The class has it all, roll one today!
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
Imo a small reduction from 30 to 25 feet (= same range as blink) would be fair.
A bigger problem is that after blink you lose all your run speed. I really would like to see an overwork so that you can blink on the move (like HR shift or DC shift). That would increase CWs survivability which he badly needs. Because lets face it: CWs are not strong in pvp since they can not kite effectively (and too much control resits on the opponents).
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
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zankardMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
As being stated, the problem is not the damage. The problem is the range.
30 feet is too long for a melee attack. I would rather see its damage be restored and its range be shortened to what a melee attack should have.
You keep calling a ranged attack a melee one. That's where your mistake is. And 30ft is absolutely fine for a ranged attack, considering everything else ranged in this game has 3 or 4 times more range.
Lol not complaining but now that FS is damage nurfed Takedown has been hitting upwards of 10k on me... and thats not even with the actual blade of the sword, its with the hilt.
Exactly.
I know CW's feel like the joke of PvP right now. Can't entirely blame them...
But asking to take away the tools that allow them to reach wizards is just not right. That is the definition of an "I-Win" button.
What some people forget is WHY takedown had a slight jump forward, and reduced casting time(if they missed) in the first place. GWF may sit tall in pvp now, but it wasn't always that way. Any half decent CW just ran repel, and repelled opponents until help arrived, and/or they could setup their rotations to kill you. In the past, both GFs and GWFs could not even reach the mage before a hard hitting Ice Knife forced you to respawn.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Imho, the design of FLS is flawed at the very beginning. I know GF doesn't have unstoppable and sprint, but a fighter should not be given ranged attacks in any case.
Fighters having ranged attacks makes perfect sense. First, this game has a PvP component and therefore there has to be some level of "balance" attempted. Second, as masters of weapons it's perfectly reasonable to think that fighters have a loaded crossbow handy and the power of a heavy crossbow can take you off your feet. Third, ROLEPLAYING - so enjoy it.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
Fighters having ranged attacks makes perfect sense. First, this game has a PvP component and therefore there has to be some level of "balance" attempted. Second, as masters of weapons it's perfectly reasonable to think that fighters have a loaded crossbow handy and the power of a heavy crossbow can take you off your feet. Third, ROLEPLAYING - so enjoy it.
I don't deprive a class of its abilities which belong to it. In this case, ranged attacks don't belong to Fighter.
I don't deprive a class of its abilities which belong to it. In this case, ranged attacks don't belong to Fighter.
Problem is, in some form or another, ranged attacks have ALWAYS belonged to fighters. Ive played dozens of mmo's, and the melee class in EVERY ONE has had some form of ranged attack.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Problem is, in some form or another, ranged attacks have ALWAYS belonged to fighters. Ive played dozens of mmo's, and the melee class in EVERY ONE has had some form of ranged attack.
I mean D&D 4e's Fighter class, not other rpg's fighter.
I mean D&D 4e's Fighter class, not other rpg's fighter.
But this IS an mmorpg. NOT a pen and paper D&D...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Fighters having ranged attacks makes perfect sense. First, this game has a PvP component and therefore there has to be some level of "balance" attempted. Second, as masters of weapons it's perfectly reasonable to think that fighters have a loaded crossbow handy and the power of a heavy crossbow can take you off your feet. Third, ROLEPLAYING - so enjoy it.
Since when balance means 3 in 6 classes always win? And stop this nonsense "roleplaying". One should not be forced to always play the dead's part (dc, cw) while another always plays the undefeated warrior (gwf, tr and hr)
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
I don't deprive a class of its abilities which belong to it. In this case, ranged attacks don't belong to Fighter.
. . . Why not? Fighters can use ranged weapons, throw weapons, or even.. dare I say.. have some special ability? Besides, this game is not Paper & Pencil, as I stated previously and the Frontline is a ranged attack in Neverwinter Online.
I mean D&D 4e's Fighter class, not other rpg's fighter.
. . . This is where your problem is. This is not Paper & Pencil, this is an "other" rpg based off of the Neverwinter Setting Boxed Set. Key words: Based-Off-Of. It is not a literal translation. They even said in a dev panel a long time back that "while Neverwinter is based off of 4th edition, it is actually it's own edition."
Since when balance means 3 in 6 classes always win? And stop this nonsense "roleplaying". One should not be forced to always play the dead's part (dc, cw) while another always plays the undefeated warrior (gwf, tr and hr)
. . . Why stop the "roleplaying" when this is an MMORPG? That doesn't make sense to me.
I give you credit for continuing to find "issues" with the game nobody else agrees with.
Never a dull IantheWizard thread.
However, seriously...I know you're partial to wizards but you need to start playing other classes before putting out these ideas.
Kolevra actually hit the nail on the head...if you want to keep requesting ideas that make melee fighters 100% inferior to ranged then it's nigh time you get a taste of your own medicine and we ask for your spells to be interupted when taking damage and being told you are too close to fire spells and arrows.
No one else agrees with? The reason that so many people disagree in the forums is simple. Last week I counted 85 GWF's in the top 200 on leaderboards. Logic dictates that they will have the loudest voice. Especially since they are the ones that want to win the most, or else they wouldn't have rolled the most OP class. (sure, some used GWF before it was OP, but most didn't)
I have said for a full year that the range of a GWF's powers are ridiculous. I mean, takedown? It will prone 3 people from range and it can also do up to 10k dmg from the really OP GWF's. And as a bonus it has virtually no animation to give you a chance to avoid it. But since GWF is easy mode then you know they will prolly open with that (most do). Although now that most GWF's abuse the bugged roar they will probably open with that instead, and you can't dodge that ****. Then you will get proned, prolly 3 times over.
Someone who plays against GWF's will know that this is the truth and that something needs to be changed. Although they have been grossly OP for a long long time, and mod 3 didn't solve it, they actually buffed GWF for PvP. lol
And this is about GWF, not HR or TR. So no need to use "bu bu but HR/TR" as defense to the GWF claims. Two wrongs doesn't make one right last I checked.
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
. . . Why not? Fighters can use ranged weapons, throw weapons, or even.. dare I say.. have some special ability? Besides, this game is not Paper & Pencil, as I stated previously and the Frontline is a ranged attack in Neverwinter Online.
. . . This is where your problem is. This is not Paper & Pencil, this is an "other" rpg based off of the Neverwinter Setting Boxed Set. Key words: Based-Off-Of. It is not a literal translation. They even said in a dev panel a long time back that "while Neverwinter is based off of 4th edition, it is actually it's own edition."
. . . Why stop the "roleplaying" when this is an MMORPG? That doesn't make sense to me.
Ok, but I should be able to decide my part by myself. Thanks to an inconsiderate design, some classes always play the dead's part.
No one else agrees with? The reason that so many people disagree in the forums is simple. Last week I counted 85 GWF's in the top 200 on leaderboards. Logic dictates that they will have the loudest voice. Especially since they are the ones that want to win the most, or else they wouldn't have rolled the most OP class. (sure, some used GWF before it was OP, but most didn't)
I have said for a full year that the range of a GWF's powers are ridiculous. I mean, takedown? It will prone 3 people from range and it can also do up to 10k dmg from the really OP GWF's. And as a bonus it has virtually no animation to give you a chance to avoid it. But since GWF is easy mode then you know they will prolly open with that (most do). Although now that most GWF's abuse the bugged roar they will probably open with that instead, and you can't dodge that ****. Then you will get proned, prolly 3 times over.
Someone who plays against GWF's will know that this is the truth and that something needs to be changed. Although they have been grossly OP for a long long time, and mod 3 didn't solve it, they actually buffed GWF for PvP. lol
And this is about GWF, not HR or TR. So no need to use "bu bu but HR/TR" as defense to the GWF claims. Two wrongs doesn't make one right last I checked.
I will name my firstborn after you, kind sir. Thank you.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
Ok, but I should be able to decide my part by myself. Thanks to an inconsiderate design, some classes always play the dead's part.
. . . I didn't say anything about playing one's part. Play your class how you want, just like you would in any other D&D Campaign under a DM's rules. Here, Cryptic is the DM and Neverwinter is AD&D 4.NW edition. Seriously, what do you think a DM would do if you showed him a spell and said "your mobs are too powerful for using this, you should change it to this instead because I cannot teleport away fast enough" I don't think any DM would be in favor of that. If I were that DM, I would laugh and suggest they figure out some other tactics (like what was mentioned: teleporting side-ways instead).
No one else agrees with? The reason that so many people disagree in the forums is simple. Last week I counted 85 GWF's in the top 200 on leaderboards. Logic dictates that they will have the loudest voice. Especially since they are the ones that want to win the most, or else they wouldn't have rolled the most OP class. (sure, some used GWF before it was OP, but most didn't)
I have said for a full year that the range of a GWF's powers are ridiculous. I mean, takedown? It will prone 3 people from range and it can also do up to 10k dmg from the really OP GWF's. And as a bonus it has virtually no animation to give you a chance to avoid it. But since GWF is easy mode then you know they will prolly open with that (most do). Although now that most GWF's abuse the bugged roar they will probably open with that instead, and you can't dodge that ****. Then you will get proned, prolly 3 times over.
Someone who plays against GWF's will know that this is the truth and that something needs to be changed. Although they have been grossly OP for a long long time, and mod 3 didn't solve it, they actually buffed GWF for PvP. lol
And this is about GWF, not HR or TR. So no need to use "bu bu but HR/TR" as defense to the GWF claims. Two wrongs doesn't make one right last I checked.
I never disagreed with it. Just stating that in every other mmo that's been played, melee classes had some range abilities. Make them weaker, idc. But, complaining that melee characters having range abilities making them op, IS the same as saying that ranged classes have op range as well. Virtually ALL of the mage/range classes encounters/at wills have DOUBLE the range of these abilities. Is it not fair to say that the CW/HR/TR ranges should be cut in half then too? How hard is it to kill an opponent, or at least take most of their health, BEFORE they even reach you? Up until tenacity pvp, my cw was more than capable of killing melee fighters before they were even near Frontline Surge range... cc ftw .
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Leaderboard statistics can be evaluated a million different ways with a million different variables explaining who is at a certain rank and what class ranks the most where and why. It's all very ambiguous, ultimately useless in a balance discussion as it brings nothing "real" to the discussion.
Neither does exaggerated, ill-informed "he hit me for this hard" claims. Frontline Surge (the ability you mistakenly refer to as Takedown) does not hit an equally-geared opponent for 10k, not even squishies. These are the type of claims that GWF will always defend on the forums, not because they "just want to stay OP" but because they are simply not true at all. If FLS hit you for 10k, or Indomitable hit you for 30k, or Takedown hit you for 15k, guess what ? You were heavily out-geared and that has nothing to do with balance. Gear discrepancies are part of the game and have nothing to do with balancing.
"bu bu but HR/TR" is a natural point of argument within a balance discussion. How can you expect to discuss class balance without talking about other classes? Whether people realize it or not, HR/TR/GWF are more or less balanced in the scope of Domination. The point of establishing this fact is to make people realize that nerfing the GWF does NOTHING for the classes who truly are underpowered. Your GFs and CWs will still be getting wrecked by HRs and TRs after you nerf the GWF and then this whole process starts over again with a different class.
Two wrongs don't make a right but neither does three wrongs or four wrongs.
Someone explain to me (without bias) why Fighters should have their maximum range reduced but ranged classes shouldn't have their minimum range increased. Until then, this entire argument is just another one of the dozens of improper approaches to balance.
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Leaderboard statistics can be evaluated a million different ways with a million different variables explaining who is at a certain rank and what class ranks the most where and why. It's all very ambiguous, ultimately useless in a balance discussion as it brings nothing "real" to the discussion.
^This, plus the fact that we don't know if the top players played all or most of their games as premade, or pugged it(which I kind of doubt)...
Neither does exaggerated, ill-informed "he hit me for this hard" claims. Frontline Surge (the ability you mistakenly refer to as Takedown) does not hit an equally-geared opponent for 10k, not even squishies. These are the type of claims that GWF will always defend on the forums, not because they "just want to stay OP" but because they are simply not true at all. If FLS hit you for 10k, or Indomitable hit you for 30k, or Takedown hit you for 15k, guess what ? You were heavily out-geared and that has nothing to do with balance. Gear discrepancies are part of the game and have nothing to do with balancing.
This is also impossible to properly deduce either. Every class has virtually some form of debuff/buff of themselves/others, so getting your def hit so hard, that you get hit so hard, shouldn't be hard to see.
"bu bu but HR/TR" is a natural point of argument within a balance discussion. How can you expect to discuss class balance without talking about other classes? Whether people realize it or not, HR/TR/GWF are more or less balanced in the scope of Domination. The point of establishing this fact is to make people realize that nerfing the GWF does NOTHING for the classes who truly are underpowered. Your GFs and CWs will still be getting wrecked by HRs and TRs after you nerf the GWF and then this whole process starts over again with a different class.
aka "calling for the nerfbat" as its been termed lol...
Someone explain to me (without bias) why Fighters should have their maximum range reduced but ranged classes shouldn't have their minimum range increased. Until then, this entire argument is just another one of the dozens of improper approaches to balance.
I caught this statement that you said in an earlier thread, and I believe it makes sense. But honestly, this happens, and I think they(range classes) will start crying about not being able to do anything when the GWF/GF come knocking at their face though. And that's not being bias, that's taking this part from a ranged class point of view...
I personally believe that a melee class should have as many ways to reach a range class, as much as a range class can either hold a melee at bay, or escape...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
... But, complaining that melee characters having range abilities making them op, IS the same as saying that ranged classes have op range as well...
Attacking remotely is how ranged classes work. You can say their abilities are powerful, but can't say their abilities are overpowered. None of their abilities are overpowered.
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
Kolevra, did you honestly think gwfs shouldn't be nerfed? I ask because every proposal that has been made, you always said that was not the right way to do it. So, according to you, what should cryptic do? Leave everything as is?
So can I ask you, are you enjoing the status quo? Are you afraid that you won't enjoy so much the game if they nerf your class?
Don't you think dc, cw and gf are fed up to be thrashed in pvp? Or in pve where there are only 2 classes now, cw and...guess what, gwf?
You too should ask for changes, because if things don't change, people will migrate to another game where they can play the class they want. And neverwinter will be no more.
Attacking remotely is how ranged classes work. You can say they are powerful, but can't say they are overpowered. None of their abilities are overpowered.
And, by your logic, then Frontline Surge isn't overpowered either. It has a significant cooldown, has half the range of basically ALL ranged classes abilities. By your own token then, Frontline Surge isn't overpowered either. Now, if Frontline Surge had better cooldown, the range of the best encounters rangers/mages had, AND their damage? Then, wed have a discussion here, wouldn't we?
And by the way, knocking enemies around/getting to those ranged classes is how melee classes also work. If melee classes couldn't reach ranged classes(wink wink past neverwinter meta) then balance shifts the other way, doesn't it?
I think you've missed some threads there. Look up Root mechanic(HR), Constricting Arrow(HR), Thorn Ward(HR), Icy Rays(CW), Repel(pre-tenacity CW), Hammer of Fate(DC), Entangling Force(CW), Shard of the Endless Avalanche(CW), just off the top of my head... Theres threads there(past: some have been fixed), if you look for them, about complaints about those abilities(and more), as well as nerfs that have happened to some of them, due to complaints of them being overpowered, and/or not WAI...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
What I find embarassing, is cryptic that after the last patch said that gwf are exactly where they want them to be, damage wise.
And this is pure madness. When a class can kill a 16+k gs/1200 tenacity dc in one and half rotation, while keeping him cced, there is no more room to grow.
What will happen next module? Will gwf oneshot evey other player, except other gwf in unstoppable?
And, by your logic, then Frontline Surge isn't overpowered either. It has a significant cooldown, has half the range of basically ALL ranged classes abilities. By your own token then, Frontline Surge isn't overpowered either. Now, if Frontline Surge had better cooldown, the range of the best encounters rangers/mages had, AND their damage? Then, wed have a discussion here, wouldn't we?
And by the way, knocking enemies around/getting to those ranged classes is how melee classes also work. If melee classes couldn't reach ranged classes(wink wink past neverwinter meta) then balance shifts the other way, doesn't it?
Froneline Surge is overpowered because it is currently a ranged attack.
Just as you said, they should reach ranged classes to attack, not attack ranged classes remotely. CC-immunity, sprint, and Threatening Rush are already useful (or OP) gap closers.
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
And, by your logic, then Frontline Surge isn't overpowered either. It has a significant cooldown, has half the range of basically ALL ranged classes abilities. By your own token then, Frontline Surge isn't overpowered either. Now, if Frontline Surge had better cooldown, the range of the best encounters rangers/mages had, AND their damage? Then, wed have a discussion here, wouldn't we?
And by the way, knocking enemies around/getting to those ranged classes is how melee classes also work. If melee classes couldn't reach ranged classes(wink wink past neverwinter meta) then balance shifts the other way, doesn't it?
There is no game out there (at least aaa mmorpg) where there isn't diminuishing return to cc. And in these games melee have not spammable gap closer and ranged have not spammable ways to keep melee at bay. Don't you notice any difference with how things are in NW?
When stamina is depleted, that is in the first seconds of the fight, you are pretty much dead against a gwf if you are a cw or a dc.
Froneline Surge is overpowered because it is currently a ranged attack.
Just as you said, they should reach ranged classes to attack, not attack ranged classes remotely. CC-immunity, sprint, and Threatening Rush are already useful (or OP) gap closers.
The problem is, by your definition, it isn't overpowered. It has longer cooldowns than most CW encounters, and has almost 1/3 the range of basically ALL CW encounters. Is it fair to say that the fact that a CW can start his rotations a good 60' feet BEFORE the fighter even has a chance to attack back is NOT OP?!
Attacking remotely IS a way to reach ranged classes. Can not a fighter throw an axe, chains, energy attack from their weapon?
In return,
CC, dodges, and area denial abilities/stuns/dazes are already useful (or OP) gap "extenders", or increasers...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
There is no game out there (at least aaa mmorpg) where there isn't diminuishing return to cc. And in these games melee have not spammable gap closer and ranged have not spammable ways to keep melee at bay. Don't you notice any difference with how things are in NW?
When stamina is depleted, that is in the first seconds of the fight, you are pretty much dead against a gwf if you are a cw or a dc.
The problem with your statement, is that CW has more than enough potential to constantly keep players in check. You just don't see it. Yes, tenacity screwed CWs over. BUT... IT IS being looked at. You probably have NEVER played past neverwinter meta, have you? Look up permacontrol, id be delighted to show someone how a GWF/GF could virtually never reach the wizard in past environments...
When stamina and cc immunity is depleted, GWF/TR/GF are pretty much dead if youre facing a cw or hr...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Kolevra, did you honestly think gwfs shouldn't be nerfed? I ask because every proposal that has been made, you always said that was not the right way to do it. So, according to you, what should cryptic do? Leave everything as is?
So can I ask you, are you enjoing the status quo? Are you afraid that you won't enjoy so much the game if they nerf your class?
Don't you think dc, cw and gf are fed up to be thrashed in pvp? Or in pve where there are only 2 classes now, cw and...guess what, gwf?
You too should ask for changes, because if things don't change, people will migrate to another game where they can play the class they want. And neverwinter will be no more.
(Sorry for my bad english)
No, I don't think GWFs need to be nerfed. They are fixing Roar and I firmly believe that this fix will put GWF exactly where they need to be. Roar is the catalyst for everything that seems overpowered about the GWF. When they fix it, people will realize this.
No, I am not enjoying the status quo (Okay, maybe I enjoy smashing endless waves of hopeless enemies every now and then ). True balance and fairness is much more of a priority to me.
Yes, I tihnk CW/GF/DC are fed up of being thrashed by the other 3 classes in PvP. I play CW a lot. Mechanically, its my favorite class. The changes I want to see involve buffing these three classes and leaving the others how they are.
Playing CW gives me a sense of objectivity when defending my GWF. As a CW, I could honestly care less about GWFs range, I either dodge him or I don't. Frontline Surge range reduction does nothing for my CW. He still gets thrashed by TR and thrashed by HR. There's been dozens of threads about nerfing GWF in the last month and not a single one of the suggestions does anything that escapes this fact. Nerf GWF into the ground or take them out of the game entirely, you're still going to have to buff CW and GF.
Nerfing the GWF leads to an onslaught of nerf HR and nerf TR threads. They nerf them and then it starts over. Why bother? Buffing the CW and GF to get up to speed is the proper approach to current balance.
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
How soon do people forget that things have flipped from what they once were... The gwf, once one of the least favorite pvp/pve classes, is now being complained about by classes (primarily CW) that used to be the top spot for pvp/pve... Oh my, how the scales have shifted, haven't they?
And THATS why calling for "nerfs" or "buffs" in the end doesn't help anything...
Heck, like it or not, if it wasn't for tenacity, CWs would be the 1 shot kings of pvp right now. Entangling Force, Icy Rays, Shard of the Endless Avalanche, followed by an Ice Knife if they were still standing=gg.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Comments
Yes that is why the GF is so OP
Exactly.
I know CW's feel like the joke of PvP right now. Can't entirely blame them...
But asking to take away the tools that allow them to reach wizards is just not right. That is the definition of an "I-Win" button.
Before the added paragon paths GWF was still a god in PvP if you built them a certain way. They did not have threatening rush but they did have unstoppable and their ability to sprint. There was still godly/deadly GWFs but a lot less of them.
Threatening Rush just opened up the class to the basic world of: "GWFs for Dummies". Like stated above you can make an "all ranged" GWF, not just one or two powers but all of them except maybe one at will.
The class has it all, roll one today!
A bigger problem is that after blink you lose all your run speed. I really would like to see an overwork so that you can blink on the move (like HR shift or DC shift). That would increase CWs survivability which he badly needs. Because lets face it: CWs are not strong in pvp since they can not kite effectively (and too much control resits on the opponents).
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
You keep calling a ranged attack a melee one. That's where your mistake is. And 30ft is absolutely fine for a ranged attack, considering everything else ranged in this game has 3 or 4 times more range.
CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
What some people forget is WHY takedown had a slight jump forward, and reduced casting time(if they missed) in the first place. GWF may sit tall in pvp now, but it wasn't always that way. Any half decent CW just ran repel, and repelled opponents until help arrived, and/or they could setup their rotations to kill you. In the past, both GFs and GWFs could not even reach the mage before a hard hitting Ice Knife forced you to respawn.
So you want a nerf to classes you don't play but a bonus to the class that you do play (as evidenced in this thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?654301-Suggestion-Let-Arcane-Sigularity-benefit-from-Control-Bonus)? You could just be honest and ask for an "I win" button.
Fighters having ranged attacks makes perfect sense. First, this game has a PvP component and therefore there has to be some level of "balance" attempted. Second, as masters of weapons it's perfectly reasonable to think that fighters have a loaded crossbow handy and the power of a heavy crossbow can take you off your feet. Third, ROLEPLAYING - so enjoy it.
Problem is, in some form or another, ranged attacks have ALWAYS belonged to fighters. Ive played dozens of mmo's, and the melee class in EVERY ONE has had some form of ranged attack.
But this IS an mmorpg. NOT a pen and paper D&D...
Since when balance means 3 in 6 classes always win? And stop this nonsense "roleplaying". One should not be forced to always play the dead's part (dc, cw) while another always plays the undefeated warrior (gwf, tr and hr)
. . . This is where your problem is. This is not Paper & Pencil, this is an "other" rpg based off of the Neverwinter Setting Boxed Set. Key words: Based-Off-Of. It is not a literal translation. They even said in a dev panel a long time back that "while Neverwinter is based off of 4th edition, it is actually it's own edition."
. . . Why stop the "roleplaying" when this is an MMORPG? That doesn't make sense to me.
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No one else agrees with? The reason that so many people disagree in the forums is simple. Last week I counted 85 GWF's in the top 200 on leaderboards. Logic dictates that they will have the loudest voice. Especially since they are the ones that want to win the most, or else they wouldn't have rolled the most OP class. (sure, some used GWF before it was OP, but most didn't)
I have said for a full year that the range of a GWF's powers are ridiculous. I mean, takedown? It will prone 3 people from range and it can also do up to 10k dmg from the really OP GWF's. And as a bonus it has virtually no animation to give you a chance to avoid it. But since GWF is easy mode then you know they will prolly open with that (most do). Although now that most GWF's abuse the bugged roar they will probably open with that instead, and you can't dodge that ****. Then you will get proned, prolly 3 times over.
Someone who plays against GWF's will know that this is the truth and that something needs to be changed. Although they have been grossly OP for a long long time, and mod 3 didn't solve it, they actually buffed GWF for PvP. lol
And this is about GWF, not HR or TR. So no need to use "bu bu but HR/TR" as defense to the GWF claims. Two wrongs doesn't make one right last I checked.
Ok, but I should be able to decide my part by myself. Thanks to an inconsiderate design, some classes always play the dead's part.
I will name my firstborn after you, kind sir. Thank you.
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I never disagreed with it. Just stating that in every other mmo that's been played, melee classes had some range abilities. Make them weaker, idc. But, complaining that melee characters having range abilities making them op, IS the same as saying that ranged classes have op range as well. Virtually ALL of the mage/range classes encounters/at wills have DOUBLE the range of these abilities. Is it not fair to say that the CW/HR/TR ranges should be cut in half then too? How hard is it to kill an opponent, or at least take most of their health, BEFORE they even reach you? Up until tenacity pvp, my cw was more than capable of killing melee fighters before they were even near Frontline Surge range... cc ftw
Leaderboard statistics can be evaluated a million different ways with a million different variables explaining who is at a certain rank and what class ranks the most where and why. It's all very ambiguous, ultimately useless in a balance discussion as it brings nothing "real" to the discussion.
Neither does exaggerated, ill-informed "he hit me for this hard" claims. Frontline Surge (the ability you mistakenly refer to as Takedown) does not hit an equally-geared opponent for 10k, not even squishies. These are the type of claims that GWF will always defend on the forums, not because they "just want to stay OP" but because they are simply not true at all. If FLS hit you for 10k, or Indomitable hit you for 30k, or Takedown hit you for 15k, guess what ? You were heavily out-geared and that has nothing to do with balance. Gear discrepancies are part of the game and have nothing to do with balancing.
"bu bu but HR/TR" is a natural point of argument within a balance discussion. How can you expect to discuss class balance without talking about other classes? Whether people realize it or not, HR/TR/GWF are more or less balanced in the scope of Domination. The point of establishing this fact is to make people realize that nerfing the GWF does NOTHING for the classes who truly are underpowered. Your GFs and CWs will still be getting wrecked by HRs and TRs after you nerf the GWF and then this whole process starts over again with a different class.
Two wrongs don't make a right but neither does three wrongs or four wrongs.
Someone explain to me (without bias) why Fighters should have their maximum range reduced but ranged classes shouldn't have their minimum range increased. Until then, this entire argument is just another one of the dozens of improper approaches to balance.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
^This, plus the fact that we don't know if the top players played all or most of their games as premade, or pugged it(which I kind of doubt)...
This is also impossible to properly deduce either. Every class has virtually some form of debuff/buff of themselves/others, so getting your def hit so hard, that you get hit so hard, shouldn't be hard to see.
aka "calling for the nerfbat" as its been termed lol...
I caught this statement that you said in an earlier thread, and I believe it makes sense. But honestly, this happens, and I think they(range classes) will start crying about not being able to do anything when the GWF/GF come knocking at their face though. And that's not being bias, that's taking this part from a ranged class point of view...
I personally believe that a melee class should have as many ways to reach a range class, as much as a range class can either hold a melee at bay, or escape...
So can I ask you, are you enjoing the status quo? Are you afraid that you won't enjoy so much the game if they nerf your class?
Don't you think dc, cw and gf are fed up to be thrashed in pvp? Or in pve where there are only 2 classes now, cw and...guess what, gwf?
You too should ask for changes, because if things don't change, people will migrate to another game where they can play the class they want. And neverwinter will be no more.
(Sorry for my bad english)
And, by your logic, then Frontline Surge isn't overpowered either. It has a significant cooldown, has half the range of basically ALL ranged classes abilities. By your own token then, Frontline Surge isn't overpowered either. Now, if Frontline Surge had better cooldown, the range of the best encounters rangers/mages had, AND their damage? Then, wed have a discussion here, wouldn't we?
And by the way, knocking enemies around/getting to those ranged classes is how melee classes also work. If melee classes couldn't reach ranged classes(wink wink past neverwinter meta) then balance shifts the other way, doesn't it?
P.S.
I think you've missed some threads there. Look up Root mechanic(HR), Constricting Arrow(HR), Thorn Ward(HR), Icy Rays(CW), Repel(pre-tenacity CW), Hammer of Fate(DC), Entangling Force(CW), Shard of the Endless Avalanche(CW), just off the top of my head... Theres threads there(past: some have been fixed), if you look for them, about complaints about those abilities(and more), as well as nerfs that have happened to some of them, due to complaints of them being overpowered, and/or not WAI...
And this is pure madness. When a class can kill a 16+k gs/1200 tenacity dc in one and half rotation, while keeping him cced, there is no more room to grow.
What will happen next module? Will gwf oneshot evey other player, except other gwf in unstoppable?
Just as you said, they should reach ranged classes to attack, not attack ranged classes remotely. CC-immunity, sprint, and Threatening Rush are already useful (or OP) gap closers.
There is no game out there (at least aaa mmorpg) where there isn't diminuishing return to cc. And in these games melee have not spammable gap closer and ranged have not spammable ways to keep melee at bay. Don't you notice any difference with how things are in NW?
When stamina is depleted, that is in the first seconds of the fight, you are pretty much dead against a gwf if you are a cw or a dc.
The problem is, by your definition, it isn't overpowered. It has longer cooldowns than most CW encounters, and has almost 1/3 the range of basically ALL CW encounters. Is it fair to say that the fact that a CW can start his rotations a good 60' feet BEFORE the fighter even has a chance to attack back is NOT OP?!
Attacking remotely IS a way to reach ranged classes. Can not a fighter throw an axe, chains, energy attack from their weapon?
In return,
CC, dodges, and area denial abilities/stuns/dazes are already useful (or OP) gap "extenders", or increasers...
The problem with your statement, is that CW has more than enough potential to constantly keep players in check. You just don't see it. Yes, tenacity screwed CWs over. BUT... IT IS being looked at. You probably have NEVER played past neverwinter meta, have you? Look up permacontrol, id be delighted to show someone how a GWF/GF could virtually never reach the wizard in past environments...
When stamina and cc immunity is depleted, GWF/TR/GF are pretty much dead if youre facing a cw or hr...
No, I don't think GWFs need to be nerfed. They are fixing Roar and I firmly believe that this fix will put GWF exactly where they need to be. Roar is the catalyst for everything that seems overpowered about the GWF. When they fix it, people will realize this.
No, I am not enjoying the status quo (Okay, maybe I enjoy smashing endless waves of hopeless enemies every now and then
Yes, I tihnk CW/GF/DC are fed up of being thrashed by the other 3 classes in PvP. I play CW a lot. Mechanically, its my favorite class. The changes I want to see involve buffing these three classes and leaving the others how they are.
Playing CW gives me a sense of objectivity when defending my GWF. As a CW, I could honestly care less about GWFs range, I either dodge him or I don't. Frontline Surge range reduction does nothing for my CW. He still gets thrashed by TR and thrashed by HR. There's been dozens of threads about nerfing GWF in the last month and not a single one of the suggestions does anything that escapes this fact. Nerf GWF into the ground or take them out of the game entirely, you're still going to have to buff CW and GF.
Nerfing the GWF leads to an onslaught of nerf HR and nerf TR threads. They nerf them and then it starts over. Why bother? Buffing the CW and GF to get up to speed is the proper approach to current balance.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
And THATS why calling for "nerfs" or "buffs" in the end doesn't help anything...
Heck, like it or not, if it wasn't for tenacity, CWs would be the 1 shot kings of pvp right now. Entangling Force, Icy Rays, Shard of the Endless Avalanche, followed by an Ice Knife if they were still standing=gg.