The thing is people pay for what is cheapest. Sometimes it doesn't really matter how much you undercut by, just being the lowest will cause you a sale and even if you don't get the sale, discounting it a lot doesn't save you from people undercutting you. I've seen stable markets fall in price just because a few people undercutting each other at one time and then because people are still farming or making those items, the market stabilises at that amount when really things would sell at pretty much the same rate if they had just undercut by a small amount. Also people are complaining because the old content is remaining the goto for farming while it would make the game less stale if the new content could be farmed in a similar fashion. I'd like to farm mc/vt for a change, but drop rates affect that, but so does half the drops being bop. I used to farm CN a lot. Now I'm stuck with using professions for ad generation instead of playing which kind of defeats the purpose of the game. CN is still somewhat farmable but the newer content should have somewhat taken it's place. Games are all about progression. Not getting any rewards for replaying a dungeon you're got your loot from means no progression and hence not really worth doing. CN is a dungeon people kept doing over and over in order to progress and earn more stuff. Should me being a leadership bot, spending my time crafting on 16 toons be more rewarding than actually playing the game? Old content obviously won't keep its value forever, atm there's nothing to take its place though and everything will be a waste of time unless they change things. I've invested my AD just in case though so that I can carry on getting an income. I just feel bad who haven't earnt as much as me already. They're gonna have a much harder time than me and I've put a lot of time in this game.
I really don't get where you are coming from. Leadership pays in rough and you can only refine 24k a day. You can get 24k rough doing one PK multi-run. Rank3 gear takes half a day to make which is not a lot of time just to que it. If there is a real problem with the content it is that CWF is the right answer for most of it. Regardless of rewards that is really boring. The only thing that I want is content designed so that if you bring three of the same class you are going to wipe horribly.
What have we got so far? People want to farm dungeons to get AD in order to get (closer to) R10 enchants (+Perfects +Legendaries)
I think we'd all agree that getting there without the AH is not reasonnable.
It seems quite obvious now that the issue lies within the proportions of time needed to gather the BiS gear compared to the amount of time needed to farm the required Refinement Points. As always, it grows exponentially for each character you want to optimize.
On one hand, making the enchants easier to get sounds very attractive. For example, making Fulminorax and Valindra (or the DD coffers after their deathes) have a decent chance of looting an r7 would probably motivate players to run those dungeons till the end more often.
On the other hand, make it too easy, and people will throw the game away after getting to the top within a few monthes. After the 3rd module hits though, I feel there will be enough boons to farm for the enchant grind to be loosened a bit.
You *can* also get 5mil from farming Castle Malabog, but let's not deal with outliers and go for averages.
The average payout for a single PK run is 10k AD.
Back then, the average payout for a single CN run is 400k diamonds (including non-BOP dungeon delve chest). Even though PK is much faster, that's 40 runs.
Due to the BOP nature of drops, there is little reason to continually farm these dungeons. Most people don't do tier 2s anymore.....they don't even touch tier 1s. Castle Never is the last bastion and it is worth less and less each day.
You *can* also get 5mil from farming Castle Malabog, but let's not deal with outliers and go for averages.
The average payout for a single PK run is 10k AD.
Back then, the average payout for a single CN run is 400k diamonds (including non-BOP dungeon delve chest). Even though PK is much faster, that's 40 runs.
Due to the BOP nature of drops, there is little reason to continually farm these dungeons. Most people don't do tier 2s anymore.....they don't even touch tier 1s. Castle Never is the last bastion and it is worth less and less each day.
Well first you can run PK 5-8 times in a single delve. Which is your 24k rough if you make none of the rolls and just refine chest drops and Drake rings. But I was using it as a lowball to contrast with the ludicrous idea that professions are the best thing you can do in this economy. Naturally CN pays better. I'm just LOLing at anyone who complains that their CN run only averages 400k. Because that's pretty funny.
CN payout was 400k back then during open beta. If you get lucky (5% chance), you could probably net 2million in a single run.
Few people were complaining, they were all too busy farming profitable dungeons :cool:
You need to go back through the chain of response that started this digression. Basically it was a faarmer complaining he could not farm as much any more.
I really don't get where you are coming from. Leadership pays in rough and you can only refine 24k a day. You can get 24k rough doing one PK multi-run. Rank3 gear takes half a day to make which is not a lot of time just to que it. If there is a real problem with the content it is that CWF is the right answer for most of it. Regardless of rewards that is really boring. The only thing that I want is content designed so that if you bring three of the same class you are going to wipe horribly.
Sure but when you have 12 soonish to be 16 leadership toons, then it adds up. I've invested a lot of time and ad into them and they will begin to just now pay off to the point where I don't really need to worry about a bop future where no dungeon is worth repeating. That does mean there's little incentive to keep playing though. I also have multiple tools which also help with ad generation and also some investments. It's took a lot of time and effort to reach this place. I'd rather not have to rely on that.
What's wrong with wanting new dungeons/content to be as replayable as older content? The older content is getting cheaper to sell which is understandable, the new content doesn't have much to sell. If I want to progress, I'm not going to waste my time playing content I've already beaten, and if I'm not supposed to do that then I would've left a long long long time ago when I managed to beat everything, but that's not really the point of MMOs.
Well first you can run PK 5-8 times in a single delve. Which is your 24k rough if you make none of the rolls and just refine chest drops and Drake rings.
Only the very high end teams can do perhaps more than 5 PK runs in a single DD. With more typical teams, 5 is about the limit.
Sure but when you have 12 soonish to be 16 leadership toons, then it adds up. I've invested a lot of time and ad into them and they will begin to just now pay off to the point where I don't really need to worry about a bop future where no dungeon is worth repeating. That does mean there's little incentive to keep playing though. I also have multiple tools which also help with ad generation and also some investments. It's took a lot of time and effort to reach this place. I'd rather not have to rely on that.
What's wrong with wanting new dungeons/content to be as replayable as older content? The older content is getting cheaper to sell which is understandable, the new content doesn't have much to sell. If I want to progress, I'm not going to waste my time playing content I've already beaten, and if I'm not supposed to do that then I would've left a long long long time ago when I managed to beat everything, but that's not really the point of MMOs.
It seems that the way to get rich is through passive playing (playing AH, leadership, praybots, selling stuff from events months ago)
Active farming of the toughest dungeons should be a big factor in people getting rich....it once was
You need to go back through the chain of response that started this digression. Basically it was a faarmer complaining he could not farm as much any more.
Sort of. It was someone complaining that all the new content is fundamentally unfarmable, thus reducing anyone's desire to keep running the content. I think he makes a good case. People just don't chain run MC or VT because the loot drops just aren't there. Well maybe 1 in 200 runs, but those odds just don't motivate people.
There needs to be some new content like CN where folks can farm and it drops things that people are willing to spend AD on.
It seems that the way to get rich is through passive playing (playing AH, leadership, praybots, selling stuff from events months ago)
Active farming of the toughest dungeons should be a big factor in people getting rich....it once was
Which is why I'm glad I've managed to farm cn and invested that AD into man-at-arms, adventurers, bank space, coal wards, tools, and event stuff. So I now do all of that stuff and at the point where all my investments should hopefully allow me not to worry about ad generation again just in case it continues it's current pace . Sucks for those that haven't though.
Which is why I'm glad I've managed to farm cn and invested that AD into man-at-arms, adventurers, bank space, coal wards, tools, and event stuff. So I now do all of that stuff and at the point where all my investments should hopefully allow me not to worry about ad generation again just in case it continues it's current pace . Sucks for those that haven't though.
That was the right move. However, not everyone is like us who have saved up millions and millions of AD that we are able to use other means to make money. What about people who started a month ago but wants to actively farm to get rich? Its still castle never or bust for them
Farmers want to be able to farm BOE items from dungeons they have run too many times to fund progression of their characters to more quickly run the dungeons they have run too many times?
Farmers want to be able to farm BOE items from dungeons they have run too many times to fund progression of their characters to more quickly run the dungeons they have run too many times?
Isn't that why everyone farms during dungeon delves? (at least back then when it was worth it)
They want gear, they want to be able to farm resources, they want progression.
Farmers want to be able to farm BOE items from dungeons they have run too many times to fund progression of their characters to more quickly run the dungeons they have run too many times?
It beats playing the short amount of time it takes to level 60, then doing all the dungeons once and going, oh ok I've done everything, time to play something else. Farming dungeons gives us goals, a reason to keep playing, to improve our characters. With the high cost of some items, older dungeons made professing within reach. Newer dungeons can make us make no ad at all even on split runs and so you're not really making much progress. The social aspect doesn't make it feel as boring too, well to an extent... Although mc was something I did despise when bosses dropped mostly blue stuff for the first time which otherwise would be a decent dungeon.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
The AH is a net negative, so it's impossible that "everyone was making tons of money". For you to sell a drop, someone has to buy it. With the AH tax, that results in a net destruction of AD.
And more to the point, I'd rather see content designed so that it challenges people to go inside the dungeons and get their own gear, instead of swiping their credit card and buying it off the AH. Personally, I think MORE people did dungeons during the delve events after the change because it made it easier to grab the gear you wanted.
Consider a different viewpoint...
What if... when people actually get all that gear for themselves, they suddenly stop bothering with going into dungeons at all, because there's just no reason to do it anymore.
Surely you must realize that there are not exactly a ton of newbies actually coming up the ranks to get those kinds of things. And as the newer player numbers trickle off, there will be fewer and fewer of them coming up the pipes.
Try doing a dungeon as a newbie and you can't get anyone else interested in going into dungeons to help you get any of that gear. This has been my primary concern of late.
I personally don't care about the AH, yes I have a credit card and can swipe too... so I don't do dungeons for farming reasons, I do them for the fun of going through them gear or no gear.
But that is not the case for many people.
And because dungeons require a team of 5... if you cannot rely on veterans or other players to continue to crawl the dungeons for loot, then there will be no one left to fill those parties for the newer players to be able to get their gear in the DD chest delves.
So while I certainly understand the idea behind getting it yourself.. there is a point to where one has to realize you cannot do this stuff alone, its going to take a party of 5. While its true there are growing pains and elitists everywhere. The only way to actually keep the dungeons full for the newbies is to keep the dropped gear Bind on Equip.
If epic gear were all BOE, then every piece of gear would cost no more than 20k tops. And even that is probably a high estimate. Because every dungeon would be overfarmed to death. So once again from the farming point of view, dungeons wouldn't be "worth it" to farm because you wouldn't get hardly any AD out of it. Right now, it is worth it (in most cases) because you have a chance of getting a rare BoE T2 set piece which DOES fetch a high price.
What if... when people actually get all that gear for themselves, they suddenly stop bothering with going into dungeons at all, because there's just no reason to do it anymore.
Surely you must realize that there are not exactly a ton of newbies actually coming up the ranks to get those kinds of things. And as the newer player numbers trickle off, there will be fewer and fewer of them coming up the pipes.
Try doing a dungeon as a newbie and you can't get anyone else interested in going into dungeons to help you get any of that gear. This has been my primary concern of late.
I personally don't care about the AH, yes I have a credit card and can swipe too... so I don't do dungeons for farming reasons, I do them for the fun of going through them gear or no gear.
But that is not the case for many people.
And because dungeons require a team of 5... if you cannot rely on veterans or other players to continue to crawl the dungeons for loot, then there will be no one left to fill those parties for the newer players to be able to get their gear in the DD chest delves.
So while I certainly understand the idea behind getting it yourself.. there is a point to where one has to realize you cannot do this stuff alone, its going to take a party of 5. While its true there are growing pains and elitists everywhere. The only way to actually keep the dungeons full for the newbies is to keep the dropped gear Bind on Equip.
Hmmm well said. You actually brought up new points that I didn't focus on. But it all comes down to continued motivation for *majority* of MMO players to keep doing dungeons even after they got their gear from it
If epic gear were all BOE, then every piece of gear would cost no more than 20k tops. And even that is probably a high estimate. Because every dungeon would be overfarmed to death. So once again from the farming point of view, dungeons wouldn't be "worth it" to farm because you wouldn't get hardly any AD out of it. Right now, it is worth it (in most cases) because you have a chance of getting a rare BoE T2 set piece which DOES fetch a high price.
Unless you do vt where it's both a rare drop and bop. CN has been highly farmable because of it's difficulty, every boss drops pretty much best in slot BoE jewellery (some having stats more sought after and so has a higher price) and the last boss is guaranteed to drop a piece of the first weapon set with a set bonus also BoE. The point is there's been 2 other high end dungeons and neither come close to taking CNs place in being farmable and I fear that new design will be the norm so that us older players were lucky to be able to profit well from it whilst newer players are screwed if they want to earn via playing.
Unless you do vt where it's both a rare drop and bop. CN has been highly farmable because of it's difficulty, every boss drops pretty much best in slot BoE jewellery (some having stats more sought after and so has a higher price) and the last boss is guaranteed to drop a piece of the first weapon set with a set bonus also BoE. The point is there's been 2 other high end dungeons and neither come close to taking CNs place in being farmable and I fear that new design will be the norm so that us older players were lucky to be able to profit well from it whilst newer players are screwed if they want to earn via playing.
Not too many people care to farm VT or MC like they did CN before CN also became not too good.
I agree, we definitely need another Castle Never, not some BS Valindra's Tower or Castle Malabog glorified boon cave.
Which reminds me of the worst thing about original Diablo 3 - the auction house, and all the focus on it. I played D2 forever.... to find loot for myself. Not to buy & sell it. Changing the focus onto "farm gold so that you can buy your gear off the auction" was terrible. And it was great when they fixed that mistake.
D3 died when they made everything bind on equip/pickup.
Comments
I really don't get where you are coming from. Leadership pays in rough and you can only refine 24k a day. You can get 24k rough doing one PK multi-run. Rank3 gear takes half a day to make which is not a lot of time just to que it. If there is a real problem with the content it is that CWF is the right answer for most of it. Regardless of rewards that is really boring. The only thing that I want is content designed so that if you bring three of the same class you are going to wipe horribly.
I think we'd all agree that getting there without the AH is not reasonnable.
It seems quite obvious now that the issue lies within the proportions of time needed to gather the BiS gear compared to the amount of time needed to farm the required Refinement Points. As always, it grows exponentially for each character you want to optimize.
On one hand, making the enchants easier to get sounds very attractive. For example, making Fulminorax and Valindra (or the DD coffers after their deathes) have a decent chance of looting an r7 would probably motivate players to run those dungeons till the end more often.
On the other hand, make it too easy, and people will throw the game away after getting to the top within a few monthes. After the 3rd module hits though, I feel there will be enough boons to farm for the enchant grind to be loosened a bit.
You *can* also get 5mil from farming Castle Malabog, but let's not deal with outliers and go for averages.
The average payout for a single PK run is 10k AD.
Back then, the average payout for a single CN run is 400k diamonds (including non-BOP dungeon delve chest). Even though PK is much faster, that's 40 runs.
Due to the BOP nature of drops, there is little reason to continually farm these dungeons. Most people don't do tier 2s anymore.....they don't even touch tier 1s. Castle Never is the last bastion and it is worth less and less each day.
Well first you can run PK 5-8 times in a single delve. Which is your 24k rough if you make none of the rolls and just refine chest drops and Drake rings. But I was using it as a lowball to contrast with the ludicrous idea that professions are the best thing you can do in this economy. Naturally CN pays better. I'm just LOLing at anyone who complains that their CN run only averages 400k. Because that's pretty funny.
CN payout was 400k back then during open beta. If you get lucky (5% chance), you could probably net 2million in a single run.
Few people were complaining, they were all too busy farming profitable dungeons :cool:
You need to go back through the chain of response that started this digression. Basically it was a faarmer complaining he could not farm as much any more.
Sure but when you have 12 soonish to be 16 leadership toons, then it adds up. I've invested a lot of time and ad into them and they will begin to just now pay off to the point where I don't really need to worry about a bop future where no dungeon is worth repeating. That does mean there's little incentive to keep playing though. I also have multiple tools which also help with ad generation and also some investments. It's took a lot of time and effort to reach this place. I'd rather not have to rely on that.
What's wrong with wanting new dungeons/content to be as replayable as older content? The older content is getting cheaper to sell which is understandable, the new content doesn't have much to sell. If I want to progress, I'm not going to waste my time playing content I've already beaten, and if I'm not supposed to do that then I would've left a long long long time ago when I managed to beat everything, but that's not really the point of MMOs.
Only the very high end teams can do perhaps more than 5 PK runs in a single DD. With more typical teams, 5 is about the limit.
It seems that the way to get rich is through passive playing (playing AH, leadership, praybots, selling stuff from events months ago)
Active farming of the toughest dungeons should be a big factor in people getting rich....it once was
Sort of. It was someone complaining that all the new content is fundamentally unfarmable, thus reducing anyone's desire to keep running the content. I think he makes a good case. People just don't chain run MC or VT because the loot drops just aren't there. Well maybe 1 in 200 runs, but those odds just don't motivate people.
There needs to be some new content like CN where folks can farm and it drops things that people are willing to spend AD on.
Bots all around the world will rejoice! horray, bots...
I really hope they make some GREAT pve content next, its really hard to keep playing on this state of things even with m3 release.
Which is why I'm glad I've managed to farm cn and invested that AD into man-at-arms, adventurers, bank space, coal wards, tools, and event stuff. So I now do all of that stuff and at the point where all my investments should hopefully allow me not to worry about ad generation again just in case it continues it's current pace
That was the right move. However, not everyone is like us who have saved up millions and millions of AD that we are able to use other means to make money. What about people who started a month ago but wants to actively farm to get rich? Its still castle never or bust for them
Farmers want to be able to farm BOE items from dungeons they have run too many times to fund progression of their characters to more quickly run the dungeons they have run too many times?
Isn't that why everyone farms during dungeon delves? (at least back then when it was worth it)
They want gear, they want to be able to farm resources, they want progression.
Consider a different viewpoint...
What if... when people actually get all that gear for themselves, they suddenly stop bothering with going into dungeons at all, because there's just no reason to do it anymore.
Surely you must realize that there are not exactly a ton of newbies actually coming up the ranks to get those kinds of things. And as the newer player numbers trickle off, there will be fewer and fewer of them coming up the pipes.
Try doing a dungeon as a newbie and you can't get anyone else interested in going into dungeons to help you get any of that gear. This has been my primary concern of late.
I personally don't care about the AH, yes I have a credit card and can swipe too... so I don't do dungeons for farming reasons, I do them for the fun of going through them gear or no gear.
But that is not the case for many people.
And because dungeons require a team of 5... if you cannot rely on veterans or other players to continue to crawl the dungeons for loot, then there will be no one left to fill those parties for the newer players to be able to get their gear in the DD chest delves.
So while I certainly understand the idea behind getting it yourself.. there is a point to where one has to realize you cannot do this stuff alone, its going to take a party of 5. While its true there are growing pains and elitists everywhere. The only way to actually keep the dungeons full for the newbies is to keep the dropped gear Bind on Equip.
Hmmm well said. You actually brought up new points that I didn't focus on. But it all comes down to continued motivation for *majority* of MMO players to keep doing dungeons even after they got their gear from it
Unless you do vt where it's both a rare drop and bop. CN has been highly farmable because of it's difficulty, every boss drops pretty much best in slot BoE jewellery (some having stats more sought after and so has a higher price) and the last boss is guaranteed to drop a piece of the first weapon set with a set bonus also BoE. The point is there's been 2 other high end dungeons and neither come close to taking CNs place in being farmable and I fear that new design will be the norm so that us older players were lucky to be able to profit well from it whilst newer players are screwed if they want to earn via playing.
Not too many people care to farm VT or MC like they did CN before CN also became not too good.
I agree, we definitely need another Castle Never, not some BS Valindra's Tower or Castle Malabog glorified boon cave.
I played diablo 3. It did die.
The expansion gave it life as any expansion would. We'll see how long it lasts