hehe thats funny.before those "nerfs" you needed 1,2 cw.now you need 3,4 so they became more viable then ever,
trust me any class would like such a nerf lol.
as i said there was never a single bad consequence for cw in pve.
same as for tr in pvp all the nerfs just made him better and more viable.
We the CWs didn't want these nerfs.
Actually.
Before the changes I mentioned went live, there were MANY posts of CWs telling the devs EXACTLY what you are saying now:
"Dear devs, don't go ahead with nerf X; it will only increase the requirements for more CWs - where one could chain dailies as needed, now you need 3."
But no, other people were adamant: "These are bugs, fix them. CW does too much damage, fix HV stacks. CW has dailies up too often, fix EF/Mastery. CW can drop huge number of mobs in pits while I cannot do that, reduce their target cap." And so on.
Now people are complaining again about CW damage and CW CC. They see 17K CW doing draco and think "OMG, look at how OP they are", yet 99.9% of the CW population would not even make it to the first boss in 3 man party. It's just like in PvP, ubergeared player destroys newbie, newbie comes to complain, forgetting the fact he's 10K GS without weapon/armor enchants and the other guy is in Perfects.
BTW, this is about CWs... and how good are they... cause they can 3-man CN.
Yet TR is able to solo ALL CN bosses lol. So what that leaves for us to say?
1 - well , I will repeat once again : while the enemies are not programmed to gain protection even power of different individuals of the same class , there will never be place to anyone. Everything will be " optional " within an infinite rotation rises and declines until then favor the cw .
Example : If 2 shards of 2 different cw stop cause as much damage / prone in the same group of enemies , you broke the hegemony of class without a nerf to cw overall. Without such control , I need a gf . Without so much aoe , I need a ranger . And so on .
2 - Various feats and powers from other classes who should be making a difference , do not work normally. what the CW has to do with my "slam " does not work with critical ?
One thing is to take the class x as criteria of what you expect from your class ( pve / pvp ) else is wanting to get all classes in the same hole ... Despite the " two weights and two measures " of the discussion that annoy me , I have several friends whose main character the cw . I do not want the evil of class ... unfortunately not everyone thinks so.
About the video: I will not lie, I have serious problems with the aesthetics of the class. But the logistics of cw is a work of art .
""Dear devs, don't go ahead with nerf X; it will only increase the requirements for more CWs - where one could chain dailies as needed, now you need 3."
let's be honest, if the solution to the absolute dominion of the class is to give you more power because it would allow the benevolence of bringing a stranger in the party, is a sign that something is wrong, no?
It's kinda obvious why multiple CW are required. The bosses are dumb and they rely on mobs to overwhelm people and in order to easily deal with them you need to CONTROL them. 1 cw can't control them by themselves. 2 it's possible with skill and 3 makes any situation with mass adds easily done, though with draco, keeping him still helps a lot. 3 manning this is definitely an achievement though. But it seems like they're trying to release dungeons where you aren't required to use 3 cw with malabogs and vt possible with 2 or 1 where add control isn't overwhelming.
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
Everyone is complaining about this being 3 CWs, but I'm 100% sure that a 2CW, 1GWF or 2 GWF, 1CW group could do the same thing.
RIP Neverwinter 26/06/2014
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited January 2014
Of the player here I have only played with oz, who is an excellent player with top end gear. I'm not surprised to see this video here.
You shouldn't be shocked that three players with 5 epic pets, legendary artifacts, and rank 10/ coupled with skill and coordination can 3 man Draco. Especially with dread ring boons boosting lifesteal and control pets, I'm handily shocked.
I wouldn't be surprised if a gwf/2cw party could do this as well, as it is completely possible control the fight with two good Cws.
That said, I think 2 cw + just about anything is valid for cn. My guild regularly clears cn, we always take dc, though dc is better focused with buff and debuff and creates margin for error, and considering I have the fortune to play with a number of excellent dcs I am glad to have them.
Personally it seems that 3cw gwf dc is easiest, 2cw 2gwf dc is excellent too, but trs can come. I sometimes play gf and go 3cw gf, but the dps is less than gwf. I also did cw dc gwf 2tr and know groups that 2cw dc gwf tr often.
In that fight, damage wise, a good gwf has 80% cw damage and much more survivability, a good tr canuse wicked reminder and smoke and have a strong debuff and cc aspect as well. I have also cleared with a good hr that could easily out dps a cw and has the commanding shot debuff as well, so it's not that Cws are so on but rather people don't try other compositions as often. We are all so used to 3ce Draco and have been doing it for months but that doesn't mean that other classes are invlaid.
Also remember that this convention has treated a relatively large number of highly geared, highly skilled gwfs and Cws, making it easy to find them. Highly geared, highly skilled gf, tr, or hr are stil very rare in PvE, but they are a pleasure to play with when found.
What I am saying is that we don't have the same data set to judge other classes by and that doesn't mean other compositions are wrong. I bet 3gwf or 2gwf tr could do this as well.
As someone who has cleared Draco on all six classes recently, I actually think the fight is easiest on dc, then gf, then cw, then gwf and very difficult on hr and tr, but this could be due to the fact I lack skill and practice with gwf and hr
As for 25 minute clear time, I can't load the video on the iPad, but I have done some runs with lotus and everyone clears in a similar way. We aren't quite as geared up as rank 10s, but a 25 minute clear time isn't unreasonable with good teamwork and coordination.
So just give these guys some credit and bravo. We have finished the last part of the fight 3 man, and it's a ton of work. So grants, awesome job, well done, etc... And that's it.
Don't let perception bias skew your opinions, other classes (even gf) are awesome at Draco if played well with good teamwork.
Ya 3 Manning CN is very Do-able, its definitely challenging, but not inpossible, with the right CW's it can be done Easily. Good job. Having an HR in the party for Draco makes the fight so much easier with rain of arrows and Spikes
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
You're right. I watched the video. You can see at about 20 minutes they exploited to skip a big part of the dungeon (Basically the entire "enter the Shadowfell" portion. They then run to the campfire and die, skipping out on the last bit before the Draco.
So yeah, you're not running 25 minutes to the Draco legit. I can see the mob skipping with the last camp fire, but those jumping tricks in the middle are clearly an exploit.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You're right. I watched the video. You can see at about 20 minutes they exploited to skip a big part of the dungeon (Basically the entire "enter the Shadowfell" portion. They then run to the campfire and die, skipping out on the last bit before the Draco.
So yeah, you're not running 25 minutes to the Draco legit. I can see the mob skipping with the last camp fire, but those jumping tricks in the middle are clearly an exploit.
3 very skilled players kill all bosses in the hardest dungeon in the game FULLY LEGIT.
And you come here and accuse them cause they skipped some boring trash, the type of which they killed in droves earlier in the run, so there's no question they are capable of killing.
What else can be said...
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited January 2014
Pers3phone, I'm not doubting their skills as players, or their ability to clear trash. But I asked them for tips on running CN legit in 25 minutes to the dragolich. The guy responded by telling me to watch the video. I did. At about the 20 minute mark, they exploit a jump to get around a big section of the dungeon.
I'm not knocking their ability to 3-man a hard encounter, I'm just disappointed to see that the claim of "25 minutes to Draco" isn't legit.
Go click the link and check out the video yourself. It's extremely obvious...
Killing the Dracolich with three people is something they can brag about. How fast they can run CN? That claim is very dubious.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited January 2014
Iron,
I've probably killed draco 600 times, I have run in guild runs, with other guilds, with pugs, etc... in many different compositions.
Even when i first went to CN last summer not one single person has even suggested "let's clear shadowfell"
the point is, basically NO ONE CLEARS SHADOWFELL. not lotus, not me, not anyone.
Why? shadowfell is just a pointless waste of time.
There have been videos of this on youtube for the last six months, and it's not changed?
because ultimately no one actually cares about killing pointless trash.
These guys killed the toughest encounter in the game with 3 people and the complaint is "oh, they didn't clear shadowfell." That's like winning a marathon by an hour and complaining that someone to a 5 second shortcut.
Seriously, who cares? Stop looking at the anthills and see the mountain that was climbed.
inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
Shadow fell adds 90 seconds to the clear btw. it's only 2 pulls of mobs for that 3 man comp (or 1 pull for a 5man group given the number of mobs people pull on average)
so 27 minutes completely legit 3 man.
The only time i've ever cleared shadowfel was when I took a group from the legit channel a few of which were total first timers to CN, very cautious and methodical clearing and it only took about 4 minutes.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited January 2014
yeah, i like the legit channel too, because it's full of people with good attitudes who don't give up easy - and I love that
Just sometimes, stuff like this bothers me. It's too samll to really matter.
Did a draco kill an hour or so ago, took us 5:24, we just melted everything along the way. If they stops the shadowfell cross, i don't think i would care or notice, just melt that too.
Before the changes I mentioned went live, there were MANY posts of CWs telling the devs EXACTLY what you are saying now:
"Dear devs, don't go ahead with nerf X; it will only increase the requirements for more CWs - where one could chain dailies as needed, now you need 3."
But no, other people were adamant: "These are bugs, fix them. CW does too much damage, fix HV stacks. CW has dailies up too often, fix EF/Mastery. CW can drop huge number of mobs in pits while I cannot do that, reduce their target cap." And so on.
Now people are complaining again about CW damage and CW CC. They see 17K CW doing draco and think "OMG, look at how OP they are", yet 99.9% of the CW population would not even make it to the first boss in 3 man party. It's just like in PvP, ubergeared player destroys newbie, newbie comes to complain, forgetting the fact he's 10K GS without weapon/armor enchants and the other guy is in Perfects.
BTW, this is about CWs... and how good are they... cause they can 3-man CN.
Yet TR is able to solo ALL CN bosses lol. So what that leaves for us to say?
you think that average player cares if 3 cw can do cn.trust me they dont.they just want to find a spot for dd fast and easy. with 4 classes competing for only one spot....anything but.
WTF :S i make a damm long response, post it and the damm post is cut to first line, i assume i did something wrong, edit it rewriting the entire post, adding a couple things more... send it again... and is cut again in the same first line!!!! i want 30 minutes of my life back!!!!!!
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited January 2014
The forum cannot accept special characters and will delete all text below use of one.
lucidproph3cyMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
i don't think this has anything to do with how OP CW's are. I run with these guys and they are really good even if you nerfed CW they could still do this just take longer. These guys are some of the best wizards i have played with. So hats off you three for a job well done. Secondly the problem lies in the game mechanics. Due to the ever lasting spawn of adds on boss encounters 2 cw's are usually a must. When they change game mechanics from unending spawns to multiple cc resistant bosses you may need tanks or other classes. But until then a class that cc's is the class that wins. Nerf cw's cc and we will all be in trouble.
Comments
or they just need to nerf the groups with more then two of each class.
3 cw is just to much.
We the CWs didn't want these nerfs.
Actually.
Before the changes I mentioned went live, there were MANY posts of CWs telling the devs EXACTLY what you are saying now:
"Dear devs, don't go ahead with nerf X; it will only increase the requirements for more CWs - where one could chain dailies as needed, now you need 3."
But no, other people were adamant: "These are bugs, fix them. CW does too much damage, fix HV stacks. CW has dailies up too often, fix EF/Mastery. CW can drop huge number of mobs in pits while I cannot do that, reduce their target cap." And so on.
Now people are complaining again about CW damage and CW CC. They see 17K CW doing draco and think "OMG, look at how OP they are", yet 99.9% of the CW population would not even make it to the first boss in 3 man party. It's just like in PvP, ubergeared player destroys newbie, newbie comes to complain, forgetting the fact he's 10K GS without weapon/armor enchants and the other guy is in Perfects.
BTW, this is about CWs... and how good are they... cause they can 3-man CN.
Yet TR is able to solo ALL CN bosses lol. So what that leaves for us to say?
Example : If 2 shards of 2 different cw stop cause as much damage / prone in the same group of enemies , you broke the hegemony of class without a nerf to cw overall. Without such control , I need a gf . Without so much aoe , I need a ranger . And so on .
2 - Various feats and powers from other classes who should be making a difference , do not work normally. what the CW has to do with my "slam " does not work with critical ?
One thing is to take the class x as criteria of what you expect from your class ( pve / pvp ) else is wanting to get all classes in the same hole ... Despite the " two weights and two measures " of the discussion that annoy me , I have several friends whose main character the cw . I do not want the evil of class ... unfortunately not everyone thinks so.
About the video: I will not lie, I have serious problems with the aesthetics of the class. But the logistics of cw is a work of art .
let's be honest, if the solution to the absolute dominion of the class is to give you more power because it would allow the benevolence of bringing a stranger in the party, is a sign that something is wrong, no?
You shouldn't be shocked that three players with 5 epic pets, legendary artifacts, and rank 10/ coupled with skill and coordination can 3 man Draco. Especially with dread ring boons boosting lifesteal and control pets, I'm handily shocked.
I wouldn't be surprised if a gwf/2cw party could do this as well, as it is completely possible control the fight with two good Cws.
That said, I think 2 cw + just about anything is valid for cn. My guild regularly clears cn, we always take dc, though dc is better focused with buff and debuff and creates margin for error, and considering I have the fortune to play with a number of excellent dcs I am glad to have them.
Personally it seems that 3cw gwf dc is easiest, 2cw 2gwf dc is excellent too, but trs can come. I sometimes play gf and go 3cw gf, but the dps is less than gwf. I also did cw dc gwf 2tr and know groups that 2cw dc gwf tr often.
In that fight, damage wise, a good gwf has 80% cw damage and much more survivability, a good tr canuse wicked reminder and smoke and have a strong debuff and cc aspect as well. I have also cleared with a good hr that could easily out dps a cw and has the commanding shot debuff as well, so it's not that Cws are so on but rather people don't try other compositions as often. We are all so used to 3ce Draco and have been doing it for months but that doesn't mean that other classes are invlaid.
Also remember that this convention has treated a relatively large number of highly geared, highly skilled gwfs and Cws, making it easy to find them. Highly geared, highly skilled gf, tr, or hr are stil very rare in PvE, but they are a pleasure to play with when found.
What I am saying is that we don't have the same data set to judge other classes by and that doesn't mean other compositions are wrong. I bet 3gwf or 2gwf tr could do this as well.
As someone who has cleared Draco on all six classes recently, I actually think the fight is easiest on dc, then gf, then cw, then gwf and very difficult on hr and tr, but this could be due to the fact I lack skill and practice with gwf and hr
As for 25 minute clear time, I can't load the video on the iPad, but I have done some runs with lotus and everyone clears in a similar way. We aren't quite as geared up as rank 10s, but a 25 minute clear time isn't unreasonable with good teamwork and coordination.
So just give these guys some credit and bravo. We have finished the last part of the fight 3 man, and it's a ton of work. So grants, awesome job, well done, etc... And that's it.
Don't let perception bias skew your opinions, other classes (even gf) are awesome at Draco if played well with good teamwork.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
You're right. I watched the video. You can see at about 20 minutes they exploited to skip a big part of the dungeon (Basically the entire "enter the Shadowfell" portion. They then run to the campfire and die, skipping out on the last bit before the Draco.
So yeah, you're not running 25 minutes to the Draco legit. I can see the mob skipping with the last camp fire, but those jumping tricks in the middle are clearly an exploit.
3 very skilled players kill all bosses in the hardest dungeon in the game FULLY LEGIT.
And you come here and accuse them cause they skipped some boring trash, the type of which they killed in droves earlier in the run, so there's no question they are capable of killing.
What else can be said...
I'm not knocking their ability to 3-man a hard encounter, I'm just disappointed to see that the claim of "25 minutes to Draco" isn't legit.
Go click the link and check out the video yourself. It's extremely obvious...
Killing the Dracolich with three people is something they can brag about. How fast they can run CN? That claim is very dubious.
I've probably killed draco 600 times, I have run in guild runs, with other guilds, with pugs, etc... in many different compositions.
Even when i first went to CN last summer not one single person has even suggested "let's clear shadowfell"
the point is, basically NO ONE CLEARS SHADOWFELL. not lotus, not me, not anyone.
Why? shadowfell is just a pointless waste of time.
There have been videos of this on youtube for the last six months, and it's not changed?
because ultimately no one actually cares about killing pointless trash.
These guys killed the toughest encounter in the game with 3 people and the complaint is "oh, they didn't clear shadowfell." That's like winning a marathon by an hour and complaining that someone to a 5 second shortcut.
Seriously, who cares? Stop looking at the anthills and see the mountain that was climbed.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
so 27 minutes completely legit 3 man.
The only time i've ever cleared shadowfel was when I took a group from the legit channel a few of which were total first timers to CN, very cautious and methodical clearing and it only took about 4 minutes.
Just sometimes, stuff like this bothers me. It's too samll to really matter.
Did a draco kill an hour or so ago, took us 5:24, we just melted everything along the way. If they stops the shadowfell cross, i don't think i would care or notice, just melt that too.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
you think that average player cares if 3 cw can do cn.trust me they dont.they just want to find a spot for dd fast and easy. with 4 classes competing for only one spot....anything but.
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