let's really define what round robin is and why it's not the same as "greed only".
round robin means that whenever someone picks something up, it goes to someone in the party in some kind of order. so you are winning whatever is picked up based on the round robin order. that means you can't pass on anything or need or greed on anything. and when the loot is picked up, it goes to whoever is next in line to get the picked up loot.
there's also an option that whatever you pick up, you keep. i can't remember offhand what that option is called, but it's in there. i usually choose that option when i'm helping a guild member level. they can pick up what they want and i don't have to be involved.
a greed only option would eliminate "need" altogether. you would have the option to pass on it, but at least with only one option to choose to qualify you to get the loot, it would fairly hand out the loot to all that want to participate.
if there was an honor code to follow or more so, if everyone followed an honor code concerning loot drops, there wouldn't be anything wrong with the current loot distribution system. but since that doesn't exist...
I agree that if you look up the term "round-robin" it will be defined much as you state, but as a long time user of this loot method, I can assure it does not work that way in game. All loot is pre-assigned before it hits the ground. You can never pick up anything and loot will continue to fall pre-assigned to all party members. If you see it on the ground, it is yours. I keep seeing people post that it is assigned on pickup, and could somehow be exploited. This is definitely not the case. Good discussion going here. Let's just make sure we are not misleading folks.
0
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
^^^ What he said. And further, a savvy person could keep track of the order, and intentionally pickup trash drops (that would otherwise be ignored) so as to manipulate the order that items are assigned, in their favor. "Greed only" would still allow people to pass on trash drops they didn't want, and the winner of a random roll would get the desired items...
Round robin loot does work so that if you see the item, it is yours. No counting. No tracking.
The problem I see with this in epic dungeons is that the players are then 100% at the mercy of the RNG as far as the desired drops go.
I agree that if you look up the term "round-robin" it will be defined much as you state, but as a long time user of this loot method, I can assure it does not work that way in game. All loot is pre-assigned before it hits the ground. You can never pick up anything and loot will continue to fall pre-assigned to all party members. If you see it on the ground, it is yours. I keep seeing people post that it is assigned on pickup, and could somehow be exploited. This is definitely not the case. Good discussion going here. Let's just make sure we are not misleading folks.
EXACTLY
There is nothing exploitable here. The drops themselves are round robin.
The problem I see with trying to use it in an epic dungeon that is it means the boss drop would be just as preassigned as all the junk.
i stand corrected. yes. all loot is assigned through some order which means you better have lots of inventory space depending on the assigned threshold.
but that's still not a greed only option based on a fair roll distribution method.
0
bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
i stand corrected. yes. all loot is assigned through some order which means you better have lots of inventory space depending on the assigned threshold.
but that's still not a greed only option based on a fair roll distribution method.
Additionally, can Round-Robin abide by some sort of loot threshold... i.e. no one really cares about green items, so can we get Round-Robin only for purple items? Also, if it follows some pre-chosen order, then depending on your spot on the team, you may not get a purple item, ever, if there's 3 bosses but 5 team members...
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
i stand corrected. yes. all loot is assigned through some order which means you better have lots of inventory space depending on the assigned threshold.
but that's still not a greed only option based on a fair roll distribution method.
You do get a lot of junk filling up your bags, but it is less bothersome, to me, to pause every 40-50 minutes and throw away junk than to deal with the non-stop loot spam in need/greed/pass.
As I said earlier, I only run Round-Robin looting in my circle and I can assure you that there is no sequencing or other odd distribution mechanics. After months of play, we all get an equal loot result. Of course, some runs are fatter and others leaner, but it has proven to be very fair and even overall. (except that my daughter always gets the best drops) JK
I can't fathom how a random number in the background of the round-robin method would result in a different distribution from a random number generated by a greed roll. I may be missing something, but I would happily run epics with Round-robin or greed only and expect the same results. Why not give it a try?
0
syka08Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2013
I enjoy the idea of a greed-only option.
A master loot option still has that temptation to screw everyone over, but it could also be a viable solution.
I also rather like the CTA-style idea, though if it were like that, I'd think everyone should get a purple on a boss defeat, OR those that do not get the purple might get double seals. Otherwise I could hear the same complaints about RNG that I read almost daily on the lockboxes. Well.. actually, I can see RNG complaints anywhere, anyway, where there is any RNG in use.
though really, most of the time I'm running Epics I'm after whats in the end chest and the seals, more than anything.
I like the need system, but I want anything that is 'needed' to automatically bind. As it is right now people are needing to AH, not needing to salvage (for the most part). There's a cap on how much you can refine a day, so while we might suddenly see a surge in needs to salvage, I believe that surge would die off over time.
The big thing I'd be worried about is this.
1. Greed only is more for already geared parties. Honestly, you're just there to sell things if you're looking for a greed only dungeon.
2. Players from other games that come to NW and see the way individuals act here may be turned off by the full greed solution. Not having the option to need means it's a lot slower to actually gear up a character and will fully turn some off from the game. While need being limited to class is an advantage for ninja looters - it is also something that allows new players to the community to gear up. If they can't gear up well enough, they'll leave the game.
I want a few things.
First is, I want to keep the option for Need/Greed/Pass (NBG - Need before Greed). I want items that are 'Needed' to bind to the person needed. Maybe add a 10 min trade rule where it's able to be traded with other party members but still remains bound. A fall back for if the need roll was a mistake (the item would remind bound and untradable after that 10 min period).
Second, I want a vote option for loot rules. Here's my suggestion on how it could be done.
You enter the dungeon and a little screen pops up in the top left corner of your screen with a die on it. You click on the die and it pulls up an option to pick which type of loot distribution you want, NBG or Greed only. At the top of the screen, much like when you accepted the DD que, there's a little row of five circles. As each player picks a type of loot option they want - NBG or Greed only - a little green check shows up inside that circle indicating that the players have picked a loot option. This acts as a sort of mini 'quest' that must be completed before the first boss can be fought. Lets say a sort of door with an orb on it prior to the boss that tells you cannot proceed before all loot rules have been picked.
Now, that option you pick when the green check shows up is fully anon - when the loot rules are picked before the first boss, it will simply show what was chosen. So lets say 2 picked NBG, 3 picked Greed - loot rules will be set to greed for the duration of the run and cannot be reset until you enter a new DD.
No new blood in a game = game dying over time as veteran players get bored and move on. I want a system that both rewards the old players that have most of what they want and only want to sell/gear up alts, and I want something that will allow a new player to gear up off of actually doing the DD rather than praying to get a greed roll 'eventually'. I think letting the party decide, and letting them anonymously decide may be a good direction.
If anyone decides they're going to be cute and need something that is clearly not an upgrade and you call them out on it - and they throw fits that they did it to sell and it's not a big deal - I use that thing called ignore and move on. Plenty of other players for me to run with.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
/Channel_Join NW_Legit_Community to run Dungeons without the exploits
0
bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
edited October 2013
manathayria , I feel it is important to point out that this "Greed Only" suggestion would be in addition to the existing loot modes we currently have - not a replacement. I'd also like to point out that you mention that greed only would be for characters that are already geared-up, then say it would negatively impact "new blood". A new player would/should not be on a team of fully geared people, if the intent is to farm a dungeon run in the first place.
I'd also like to reiterate that, even with the refine cap on RADs, it's still a gain in many people's eyes - one that they would still be happy to make by choosing need. Unless an item obtained by choosing need became bound, had no sale value, and couldn't be salvaged, it's unlikely to stop people from taking any advantage they can, for personal gain.
As I mentioned earlier, having the boss drop a copy for each member of a party would be ideal, but is unlikely...
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Yea, I caught that from some people Bioshrike, however, not everyone appears to be open to keeping the 'old' need/greed system and a new greed only system (as that is what was initially in play).
Making it so it's unsellable, and unsalavagable on a need roll would actually be ideal with current systems. If you're needing it, it shouldnt be something you can do anything with other than wear.
That's what DDO has with chest drops - though actual boss loot is random in the chests/tradable only through the chest if it's bop and everyone gets a random chance at it.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
/Channel_Join NW_Legit_Community to run Dungeons without the exploits
0
inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2013
I don't see any indication whatsoever from anyone in this thread asking for greed only rolls that it would replace the current loot system. Greed only should be added to the existing list of party loot options. period.
I still don't understand why there is any discussion still going on here. There is literally nothing that can be said that legitimately detracts from the merits of this request.
I don't see any indication whatsoever from anyone in this thread asking for greed only rolls that it would replace the current loot system. Greed only should be added to the existing list of party loot options. period.
I still don't understand why there is any discussion still going on here. There is literally nothing that can be said that legitimately detracts from the merits of this request.
Agreed - the primary thing I could see being changed is to what happens to an item that is needed on. Making it unsellable/unsalvagable and BTC is probably the best option. Although it'd take time for it to catch on that needed items wouldnt actually be worth anything beyond being used as an upgrade, it'd happen. Any trolls aware of it and just doing it to troll wouldn't be too hard to ignore as it is account wide anyway.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
/Channel_Join NW_Legit_Community to run Dungeons without the exploits
0
bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
I don't see any indication whatsoever from anyone in this thread asking for greed only rolls that it would replace the current loot system. Greed only should be added to the existing list of party loot options. period.
I still don't understand why there is any discussion still going on here. There is literally nothing that can be said that legitimately detracts from the merits of this request.
Indeed. At this point, TBH, I'm holding out hope that a dev notices or a community moderator passes the suggestion on...
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Comments
I agree that if you look up the term "round-robin" it will be defined much as you state, but as a long time user of this loot method, I can assure it does not work that way in game. All loot is pre-assigned before it hits the ground. You can never pick up anything and loot will continue to fall pre-assigned to all party members. If you see it on the ground, it is yours. I keep seeing people post that it is assigned on pickup, and could somehow be exploited. This is definitely not the case. Good discussion going here. Let's just make sure we are not misleading folks.
Round robin loot does work so that if you see the item, it is yours. No counting. No tracking.
The problem I see with this in epic dungeons is that the players are then 100% at the mercy of the RNG as far as the desired drops go.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
EXACTLY
There is nothing exploitable here. The drops themselves are round robin.
The problem I see with trying to use it in an epic dungeon that is it means the boss drop would be just as preassigned as all the junk.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
but that's still not a greed only option based on a fair roll distribution method.
Additionally, can Round-Robin abide by some sort of loot threshold... i.e. no one really cares about green items, so can we get Round-Robin only for purple items? Also, if it follows some pre-chosen order, then depending on your spot on the team, you may not get a purple item, ever, if there's 3 bosses but 5 team members...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
With Greed only one player could get 5 good items or 5 players could get 1 good item, it's as fair as RNG can get.
With Round-Robin you pretty much have to hope that you have a good position in the party.
You do get a lot of junk filling up your bags, but it is less bothersome, to me, to pause every 40-50 minutes and throw away junk than to deal with the non-stop loot spam in need/greed/pass.
As I said earlier, I only run Round-Robin looting in my circle and I can assure you that there is no sequencing or other odd distribution mechanics. After months of play, we all get an equal loot result. Of course, some runs are fatter and others leaner, but it has proven to be very fair and even overall. (except that my daughter always gets the best drops)
I can't fathom how a random number in the background of the round-robin method would result in a different distribution from a random number generated by a greed roll. I may be missing something, but I would happily run epics with Round-robin or greed only and expect the same results. Why not give it a try?
A master loot option still has that temptation to screw everyone over, but it could also be a viable solution.
I also rather like the CTA-style idea, though if it were like that, I'd think everyone should get a purple on a boss defeat, OR those that do not get the purple might get double seals. Otherwise I could hear the same complaints about RNG that I read almost daily on the lockboxes. Well.. actually, I can see RNG complaints anywhere, anyway, where there is any RNG in use.
though really, most of the time I'm running Epics I'm after whats in the end chest and the seals, more than anything.
Just some ideas and comments.
The big thing I'd be worried about is this.
1. Greed only is more for already geared parties. Honestly, you're just there to sell things if you're looking for a greed only dungeon.
2. Players from other games that come to NW and see the way individuals act here may be turned off by the full greed solution. Not having the option to need means it's a lot slower to actually gear up a character and will fully turn some off from the game. While need being limited to class is an advantage for ninja looters - it is also something that allows new players to the community to gear up. If they can't gear up well enough, they'll leave the game.
I want a few things.
First is, I want to keep the option for Need/Greed/Pass (NBG - Need before Greed). I want items that are 'Needed' to bind to the person needed. Maybe add a 10 min trade rule where it's able to be traded with other party members but still remains bound. A fall back for if the need roll was a mistake (the item would remind bound and untradable after that 10 min period).
Second, I want a vote option for loot rules. Here's my suggestion on how it could be done.
You enter the dungeon and a little screen pops up in the top left corner of your screen with a die on it. You click on the die and it pulls up an option to pick which type of loot distribution you want, NBG or Greed only. At the top of the screen, much like when you accepted the DD que, there's a little row of five circles. As each player picks a type of loot option they want - NBG or Greed only - a little green check shows up inside that circle indicating that the players have picked a loot option. This acts as a sort of mini 'quest' that must be completed before the first boss can be fought. Lets say a sort of door with an orb on it prior to the boss that tells you cannot proceed before all loot rules have been picked.
Now, that option you pick when the green check shows up is fully anon - when the loot rules are picked before the first boss, it will simply show what was chosen. So lets say 2 picked NBG, 3 picked Greed - loot rules will be set to greed for the duration of the run and cannot be reset until you enter a new DD.
No new blood in a game = game dying over time as veteran players get bored and move on. I want a system that both rewards the old players that have most of what they want and only want to sell/gear up alts, and I want something that will allow a new player to gear up off of actually doing the DD rather than praying to get a greed roll 'eventually'. I think letting the party decide, and letting them anonymously decide may be a good direction.
If anyone decides they're going to be cute and need something that is clearly not an upgrade and you call them out on it - and they throw fits that they did it to sell and it's not a big deal - I use that thing called ignore and move on. Plenty of other players for me to run with.
I'd also like to reiterate that, even with the refine cap on RADs, it's still a gain in many people's eyes - one that they would still be happy to make by choosing need. Unless an item obtained by choosing need became bound, had no sale value, and couldn't be salvaged, it's unlikely to stop people from taking any advantage they can, for personal gain.
As I mentioned earlier, having the boss drop a copy for each member of a party would be ideal, but is unlikely...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Making it so it's unsellable, and unsalavagable on a need roll would actually be ideal with current systems. If you're needing it, it shouldnt be something you can do anything with other than wear.
That's what DDO has with chest drops - though actual boss loot is random in the chests/tradable only through the chest if it's bop and everyone gets a random chance at it.
I still don't understand why there is any discussion still going on here. There is literally nothing that can be said that legitimately detracts from the merits of this request.
Agreed - the primary thing I could see being changed is to what happens to an item that is needed on. Making it unsellable/unsalvagable and BTC is probably the best option. Although it'd take time for it to catch on that needed items wouldnt actually be worth anything beyond being used as an upgrade, it'd happen. Any trolls aware of it and just doing it to troll wouldn't be too hard to ignore as it is account wide anyway.
Indeed. At this point, TBH, I'm holding out hope that a dev notices or a community moderator passes the suggestion on...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums